PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Are DRUM STEMS meant to be MONO ONLY?

Hello Forum Folk & PG Staff,
I started work on a song yesterday.
I wanted to use drums stems to address a particular need, (the frequent issue of cymbals being too loud in a stereo Real Drum track).
I pulled up my list of Real Drums with stems and selected the best sounding fit.
When I imported the stems into my DAW, (Reaper), they were ALL mono. I changed my dry/centred setting selection and the stems still arrived in mono.
The MIX of drums inside BIAB, (with the stems muted), doesn't sound mono.
How can I recreate a kit when the overheads, toms and room tracks are mono?
Am I doing something wrong?
Musocity showed his extractor pulling stereo from a stem set but I would think BIAB would do this.
Has this been addressed in V2024?
This is important to me as I want more stems but not the associated problem.
Yes, I tried the search section but there were not matches for mono with stems or drums, I did a visual search of my own to no avail and the A.I. was unhelpful.

I don't know. Let me try an experiment.

ps I counted 124 drums with stems in audiophile 2024.

EDIT: OK, I loaded a new drum style with stems. While most are panned to the center (0), some are not, particularly the hi-hat which makes sense to me. Of course I can adjust the panning of any stem.

Otherwise I'm not sure how to test the stem to see if it's stereo. I suppose I could audition an individual file in /bb/drums.

Reading this in your question: "I pulled up my list of Real Drums with stems and selected the best sounding fit.", I assume you also panned the stems to your liking, and the problem is not hearing them in stereo in BIAB; the problem is exporting the panned settings (while not flat & centeres) to the DAW. Is that correct?

The source files should be stereo for the room and overheads but Biab shows them as mono like in the Tracks view now the Drums show as mono. If you use the Reaper ver6 BBVST you should get the stereo source files.

[/quote]

Also you can just Freeze the stereo drum track in Biab, save it as a "new song drums only frozen.sgu" then open in Reaper with Open SGU in Reaper then select that track and run Stems from Strereo RealDrums (Reaper)

The one and only thing you need to do is install 2 scripts, no modifications, no complex installations:

I'm using Reaper 6.4.
I've been exporting from BIAB via the Audio - Export song as Audio - process - individual files etc. etc..
I do this becasue the BIAB VST can be quite flaky with regard to generating files - I often get half completed tracks or similar.
I'll try using the VST tomorrow morning and hope it resolves the problem.
If not I'll attempt the other tow processes you out line Musocity.
My biggest issue is that BIAB ought to do this without a problem.
THANK YOU.

Thanks Matt, but no, the problem is that the stems arrive, after exporting as MONO strems. Usually Overheads and things with movement across the sound stage, like toms, are stereo tracks.
Exporting via AUDIO or Track Actions delivers mono tracks.
Building a stereo image from stems usually starts with matching the panning placement of individual elements with their position in the overheads and then tweaking levels, EQ, etc. to get the sound desired. I can't do this if the overheads are mono. I CAN work on the toms by panning automation but that's lot of effort & time that ought not be required IF the stems that should be stereo were..
I've raised this problem a couple of times and BIAB staff don't seem to pick it up as an issue to address.

you need v6.57+ release if you are using wma files
https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php?ver=6x

Ah, well, I suppose it's time to update Reaper. i don't incrementally update as I like to know what I have works and I have the machine off line.

I updated Reaper & had no luck.
I downloaded the liked scripts and tried to install & edit them but received error messages when trying to run them.
I have BIAB in the supplied drive at G....
UltraPAK (G:)
I have the current SGUs in the Reaper Media folder for the current project/song
Data (F:) >Documents and Settings > ray > My Documents > Reaper Media

Error messages attached.
I know enough to be dangerous...prove that yet again.

"Install SWS Extensions to set Biab 2 bar count-in offset www.sws-extension.org"

You don't need to freeze all the stem tracks, just freeze the stereo main drum track then load it, select the track and run the Stems script.
I have updated the script so it plays over varying tempo maps smoother.
Import-frozen-SGU-MGU-realtracks-drums.zip
just replace the scripts in the script folder.

When I check the Mix vs the Overheads or Room tracks inside the Audio Edit window in BIAB, the latter 2 already show as mono only, while the drum Mix track, or for example piano tracks show as stereo wave files. So it looks like BIAB simply does not generate stereo tracks for Overheads or Room tracks, never mind the export to your DAW...

If you have the Stems generated in Biab then freeze the Mix track you will get all the Stem tracks in the frozen SGU also, and you will get the original stereo source files but you won't get the Stem name:



If you just generate the normal drum track only (and provided you have the Stems for it) then freeze that track you will get the stereo drum track that can be converted to stems with stem names:

I'll have a crack tomorrow...I've just shut down my computer as the rooms getting a bit hot and there's a bit of thunder about.
I thought I may have not edited the scripts properly.
The only changes I made were to insert G for C.
Okay I need to.
a) freeze the "Mix" tracks in BIAB, (easy enough as the stems won't "freeze"
b) Save the SGU as frozen to somewhere I can get to with the Action
c) call up the action, run it, select the SGU and all will be well?
I've sent this to support as an issue as it really is silly that the stems aren't properly useful.
It's one of many things BIAB need to address.
I know the program has been significantly upgraded for 2024 but I'm less inclined to spend the money if I can't do what I ought to be able to do.

Thanks for your help so far musocity,
I'm a slow learner when it comes to scripts.
I had another crack at it today.
I started in BIAB. I tried to remove all but the stems & drum mix from the project but that doesn't seem to be easy.
I muted everything but the stems & drum mix.
I froze the drum mix
I saved the song with a diff name
I opened Reaper,
I removed the PG VST
I reinstated the PG VST
I opened the new song file
I ran the ACTION scripts one at a time and all three came up with error messages.
Two had, essentially, the same message after selecting the SGU file
The third didn't get that far and threw up its message ASAP.
You see, I'm a klutz, this is why I try not to get into this side of things.
Here're the error messages...

I just tried "Live Chat" and the chap there had no idea - even suggested I pan them in the mixer!!! He had no personal knowledge of a "workaround". I did mention that musocity has a script but then the chat magically "timed out".

It gives you a notification to Install SWS Extensions for Reaper from https://www.sws-extension.org/

I updated the script in the previous message, you can swap the new ones with the old by just replacing them in the script folder.
You don't need to generate up Stems in Biab just the normal drum track then freeze the SGU and open in Reaper,
then run Script: Create stems from selected realdrums stereo track.lua

If you have generated up stems and froze the Mix track it will automatically import all drum stem tracks and you won't have to run Script: Create stems from selected realdrums stereo track.lua

Is it importing any tracks, there is no pic of Reaper tracks ?

You don't need the PG VST to load the SGU track/s in.

Nothing happens after the error messages.
I'll try the replacement script tomorrow.
I suppose it's pointless generating the tracks with the VST as they'll come up mono again won't they?
Thanks.
I'm a work in progress.

You will get it sorted, don't worry. You are helping me out as I can iron out any issues.

The PG VST is not working right at the moment I only get 2 stems, if it was working it would give the stereo tracks if you send the track data method, but if you render it would probably give mono:

rayc and mcity, can I ask a question? Why does it matter if a stem is stereo?

Thanks for the explanation. That help understand the ask. Maybe this can be adjusted in time. As a workaround for now a stereo effect could mimic that need or duplicate the overhead stem track and pan 1 each direction. Add some reverb and it should sound pretty decent.

Hello Rob,
"Building a stereo image from stems usually starts with matching the panning placement of individual elements with their position in the overheads and then tweaking levels, EQ, etc. to get the sound desired. I can't do this if the overheads are mono. I CAN work on the toms by panning automation but that's lot of effort & time that ought not be required IF the stems that should be stereo were."
Simply put a kit usually has a ride cymbal on one side and a crash on the other. Between them in places off centre are tome, hi hat, snare etc.
Since the stereo era took hold drums have mostly been recreated to audibly reflect how they look on stage.
Placing drums in position other than represented in the overheads can cause all sorts of problems sonically and even more in the mind of the listener...with the current arrangement
Even if the overheads were just cymbals the sound of all cymbals coming from the centre front would be odd but imagine a hi hat set up placed about 10.30 on the clock as well as noon.
As mentioned panning & automation can be a workaround for some elements BUT that'll take time & effort & suck the joy out of things.
Hope that helps.

Hello Etienne,
your statement would be true and correct is TWO mono mics were recorded to get the stereo spread.
The fairly conservative "Recorderman" set up doesn't place a far left & far right mic for the stereo image but the placement of the two overhead mics WITH spill from the rest allows for a decent stereo image - that's why it's famous. Most other set ups go for a separate L & R overhead arrangement.
I suspect BIAB/PG provide JUST mono tracks is becasue someone in a critical position didn't actually know about mixing drums...well, that's the generous assumption though it could simply be that they figured most BIAB users would, at best, use stems to reinforce sounds in concert with the stereo mix track.
I've mixed many fully multitracked kits...I've worked with a few VERY professional and talented drummers. Each drummer sets up for a stereo image in their overheads no matter what "system" they use. They ensure that a properly mixed stereo overhead track is created OR that the two separate mono overhead tracks are created.

You seem to have missed my point regarding TOMS. Most kits have more than one and a VERY popular trope in classic rock is to have the toms arranged so that playing across them walks across a chunk of the stereo image. I don't have any use for a stereo conversion of a mono tom track. I can use automation to pan such a movement BUT I shouldn't have to. In most situations these days each tom is miced so that mono files panned present no problem.

I've been mixing real drums from real drummers for over a decade and I usually receive a set up that has either 2 x mono or a stereo overhead. Top snare, bottom snare, 1x each tom, one of two kick tracks depending on the session, (some drummers like and in & out while others don't), hi hat, and 2x mono or 1x stereo ROOM track.

You writing about changing mono to stereo in the DAW etc. really makes little sense when a mono track is converted to two track mono it's less flexible than when just mono. You idea about exporting and incorporating toms in the overheads is interesting but convoluted and of no use in this situation, (let's face it good overheads would already have toms in them and in their proper kit position), where the overhead is one mono track.
You seem to have missed some of the key points whilst addressing others.
If musocity's extraction technique produces REAL stereo image files from the source then there's no problem other than BIAB/PG having missed an important element of stems. If musocity's method extracts two channel mono then the problem remains. I've yet to have success with the extraction method but stay tuned and THANKS for the good points you've added as well as bringing this to the attention of PG even if you've confused the issue with you MONO for mixer message.

Thanks guys i appreciate the clarity from those who have done this before. it helps me understand what is being ask.

The latest VST version is giving all the Stems with Stereo room & overheads:

I haven't bought 2024 yet...but that gives some hope.
I tried the new scripts and I'm one step closer...see attached images.

I tried an experiment with a different tsong & a new stem set - this one AltRockSlowSteady8ths^1-a has 15 stems so thought that PERHAPS it'd be a good chance.
Weirdly this set has OH1, OH2, OHRibbon amongst it's obsessive oversupply.
I tried the script and it has the same result as the image.
I then tried generating the files in the VST.
EVERY drum track but the mix comes out as mono. The three OH tracks differ only in tonality & level. I tried panning but they can't replicate a stereo image.
The Stereo Mix track has the crash cymbal on the left so is DEFINITELY in some form of stereo.
Script wise I'm making progress but BIAB wise I'm not getting anywhere but more perplexed. The Mix Engineers only get mono doesn't hold up when the ohs are variations on the same mono and can't be used to create stereo.
Maybe by Xmas?

That's good you have it working now, you just need to install SWS Extensions to get it to set the 2 bar count-in without going into project settings.
I can't see the tracks as you have them set offline so uncheck that setting:

I tried the AltRockSlowSteady8ths^ and I got 4 stereo tracks at the end
Overhead
Overhead2
OverheadRibbon
Room
If I put on headphones I can hear stereo in the stereo tracks.
Try other variations or just drag n drop the source file into Reaper and play the different sections:

AltRockSlowSteady8ths^_85_OverheadRibbon.wav

NEXT STEP,
Tried the "deselect" suggestion but received the same result...only MIDI data.
I tried another of the scripts and it gave me a bad argument message, and another time a poop up said that there was more than one frozen track and wouldn't proceed. I resave the BIAB song, reloaded it in the VST and the same thing happened. Well, the midi stuff is a great leap forward but having the files remain OFFLINE isn't quite useful...yet...
This is an interesting and educative process and I'm not tearing my hair out...hope you're not either.

Try action
Item: Set all media online
Item: Set all media offline



Script: Import single frozen track or section SGU MGU to selected track.lua
will just import 1 frozen track or section to an existing track:

That'll be tomorrow morning ...seems simple enough.
PHANQUE.

I was up early today so managed to get to the computer sooner than usual.
The "set all media online" thing was a complete bust.
Until it wasn't.
The day started with my G drive inexplicably being renamed H.
I edited the scripts to reflect this and upon selecting that action AFTER running the one that gave me midi info only.
The action box just hung there with nothing happening & the RUN box remaining blue outlined.
After a few goes I gave up & shut down Reaper.
I reopened so I could get an error message type snap and ran the scripts but this time I received a "can't find file" dialogue.
I was unable to find the 1st file (the mix one for the style) and left that offline then I was able to locate the next file ""unfound & bang all the rest were pulled up.
Stereo overheads x 3 and a stereo tom track.
SUCCESS.
I experimented with a quick mix based on the overhead image and saved everything for safety.
I have to say that the stereo files aren't VERY stereo - must have been a narrow placement BUT I am able to create a decent stereo image with this set of stems.
MUSOCITY - I knew you knew what you were doing - I just feared I didn't know enough to get there.
It took some fiddling and lots of guidance but at least one set of stems has been rendered USEFUL.
This also makes the case that BIAB/PG could and should facilitate this.

I'll pull up another project later today to see if it works elsewhere.
I'll report back...BUT, for the moment, I'm a happy chappy.

That's great ! I'm glad you stuck with it and got it sorted. Once you have it all working it will make things so much easier.
You can load the BIab frozen SGU into any varying tempo map and it will automatically fit, so you can add BB tracks to any live recorded band session.
Once you get comfortable with the Reaper scripts there are others that will do so many things you can't do in Biab like instantly change an FX guitar to a DI guitar keeping the same riffs, you can write the chord names as Take Markers into the track and save the track as a template.
Reaper is a great companion for Biab whether you are using the new BBPlugin 6 importing tracks instantly or you prefer to work with the main Biab to build up your songs/tracks and instantly transfer to Reaper.
justanoldmuso prefers to use flac format in his Reaper projects, this allows you to set the file type to use so any Reaper compatible audio/video format that will work if you batch convert the RealTracks and Drums folders to add another format.
This way will also let you change the tracks to Video RealTracks/Drums if you have them.
I haven't look to see if any of the Video RealDrums have Stems now ?

I tried on another song today. It had a slight complication. When I reached the point where it couldn't find the files I realized it was looking for .WAV files not the WMA of BIAB. I searched for the wav files with no success...(I suppose BIAB creates them when it does the freeze but I couldn't locate where). Being lazy I dug up the WMA files, converted them to WAV, dropped in a folder & pointed to that. Worked a treat - though I only did a 16bit conversion...no real problem given the source.
Seems like I have a "workaround" in true BIAB fashion.
If the DAW VST has it sorted as you suggest it might, I'll see how that works in future.
I'll have to buy 2024 now.
AGAIN PHANQUE.

It will load wma files if that's what you have, just set it at the top of the script:

file_type = ".wma" --{".wma",".wav",".m4a",".aiff",".flac",".mp3",".wv",".ogg"}

Reaper can batch convert your files to any compatible format you like then set the type in the script else just use wma.
There is also a script to create the reapeak files for whatever media type you are using so the tracks load instantly.

ah,
I have renewed respect for Reaper - all of the "open source" tweaking is embraced and makes things even better.
I'll have a crack at the file type change with my next song. At present I'm happily mixing & treating drum stems to address the VERY, VERY common BOING that appears in a majority of BIAB snare stems.
Thanks