Hi all. Recently picked up a couple of Roland JV-1080 external hardware synths.
GM Bank works great with BB 2011 - Really low cpu useage and zero latency, my main reason for adding harware synths.
Having problems accurately playing upper bank patches and expansion card patches.
If you're using JV-1080 upper bank patches and expansion card bank patches successfully with BB, please read and reply.
Have tried all the Roland .pat files for the JV-1080 - as well as .pat for Roland GM, JV-2080, JV-1010.
Have read through the .pat files for info and tried writing my own .pat for the JV-1080. I've read all the .pat help and tutorials I can find. No joy.
Reading through the forums, there was a problem a while back with BB playing upper bank patches (which was reported solved with a patch update over a year back). Is it possible this problem still exists for some synths (JV1080)?
I've been trying to work through this for several weeks without success.
I'm wondering, is BB 2011 actually capable of playing the upper patch banks and expansion cards or do I misunderstand?
If someone has a working .pat for the JV-1080 which accurately accesses upper bank and expansion card patches I'd be most grateful to receive a copy. Any advise is welcomed! Thanks
Yes, BIAB should be able to play those upper banks once you have a patch map that includes them. I can address them on my Roland Fantom.
If you can find a SONAR patch map, BIAB can convert it.
Otherwise, if you have the manual for your unit listing the patches in the appendix, it is not that hard to modify a similar Roland unit's patch map to make your own. It is tedious work, but not difficult work. Many of us had to do it in earlier days.
Thanks for the reply, Matt.
The cakewalk tip was a good source to google. I found the .ini files for my jv's and the expansion cards.
I'm away from my DAW right now, but I'll have a go at converting the .ini files to .pat files and try them.
I did manually modify/write some .pat files for the JV1080. Yea, tedious. When selecting the higher patches through biab, sometimes they changed and the instrument sounded as expected (GM and User), most often the instrument which played was obviously not the instrument selected in biab from the "+" pull down menu.
Reading through a sonar forum from a google hit, they were writing that - in sonar - one needed to create a default multitibral template on the first performance bank within the JV-1080 unit itself to access the higher banks. And making some sonar specific setting and some JV specific setting for the two to communicate.
Is this also the case with biab? Any clue what setting are needed in biab or on the Roland?
The documentation on GM with desktop daw in the Roland manual is sketchy. It states to place the JV-1080 on GM mode (shift > GM). I get all the familiar GM patches and (many, not all) GS patches selecting those from the "GS" button on biab gui.
Does the JV-1080 need to be in a different (Performance?) mode to access the higher patch banks and expansion card patches and select the instruments through the biab gui interface ("+" pull down menu)?
....I'm not even going to ask about getting the JV-1080 working with RealBand. Yet.
Thanks in advance.
Since I don't know the JV-1080, I can just comment based on my experience with the Roland Fantom and the Edirol units I have used. If you are able to hear MIDI chords in GM mode, then you have set the correct mode for the higher patches as well. The other mode is for solo use (one voice alone). On my Fantom, the correct mode for BIAB is Performance.
In BIAB, I do NOT send GS or XG on startup (in the GM menu, Roland GS or Send MIDI Message). Nothing is checked for Send or Auto-send.
The JV-1080 may indeed need to be set to a certain mode to work reliably. I'd try paying attention to that.
As for Realband -
You may actually find Realband easier for this. Some users appreciate the Classic Tracks window where it is possible to simply enter the bank and patch numbers in a box. Also, RB patchmaps are in a different format than BiaB (especially when converted to the actual binary file patches.bin). So it's also possible you'll see different performance in RB in this respect. The two programs share a lot of features, but they are quite different in the programming. Don't be afraid to try it.
I know BiaB is better for certain approaches to creating a song and in some other aspects. But RB is just as capable in many other ways. RB, for instance, offers a much more intuitive editing of MIDI and Audio, and many more routing and FX options. MUCH more intuitive mixing. More control over the tracks. More Flexible Realtracks editing and generation.
So they are alike in some ways, but very different in many respects. They work hand in hand to get you from creation to finished product. Create in BiaB, finish it in RB. Lots of us go that route.
The cool thing is you get them both when you buy BiaB.
Thanks, rharv, it's encouraging that using the JV-1080 with RB may be easier!
Matt, thanks again for your insights. Hoping for a JV-1080 user to come along with a little more specifics on how to get the 1080 to play nice with BB!
cheers
I'm sure there are people here who have knowledge on this. Hopefully they show up. Accessing 1080 patches should be easy enough.
How (exactly) are you trying to access the patches now?
Hi rharv. Yes, hopefully, someone that's using the JV-1080 with biab will come along. I have a hunch I'm just missing something very simple here. I've been using softsynths previously and have just recently ventured into the hardware synth realm.
The scant 2 pages of instruction in the Roland manual about using the JV-1080 with a desktop computer system states to initalize the GM mode (press >shift>GM) "to play midi scores". This works fine for selecting the limited GM patch bank - 128 patches - through the biab gui. Of course, I'd like access the higher bank patches and expansion card patches through the biab / rb gui for another 1000+ patches.
All the JV's bank and exp card bank patches can be "demoed" directly from the JV's headphone output (or the audio outs into an amp) and pressing the vol button on the JV. Every 4 note demo plays ok. So they all work.
As mentioned before, I've tried all the appropriate Roland .pat files in the bb folder and on pg's .pat file page without higher patch joy. Some of these .pat files are written for a different exp card configuration, so I've also dabled with editing these. No joy in GM mode.
Don't know if it matters, but in configuring the synth in preferences, biab asks to select a .dk file from the pull down menu. There isn't a .dk for the JV-1080, so I've used "Roland Gen MIdi", "JV-1010", "JV-2080" and some others.
Recently, I downloaded and converted a cakewalknet .ini file to .pat. Essentially, the same result in GM mode.
(The converted cakewalk .ini > > .pat doesn't match my expansion card configuration, either and looks to have been somewhat edited/customized, so I know it will need further editing. Also, opening the converted patch file in notepad, it is formatted differently than the .pat available in the bb folder. It appears that there are several formats used for a .pat file.)
BUT, in a "Performance" mode setting on the JV, I CAN select higher patches through biab gui ("+") and many of the patches change - some sound close to what is expected, others are obviously not correct and some change (by default, I guess, when there is no valid higher patch?) to a regular GM bank patch.
At this point, it appears that I need to have the JV in "Performance" mode to access and select the higher banks through the biab gui. There are 64 "performances" that can be scrolled through with the JV value dial. They're all preset with different patches but I CAN select and change the instruments through bb gui - except the drums - though many of them are obviously wrong.
If I am on the right track with this theory, then what I need are JV-1080 settings required and how to enter those settings on the JV.
Google returned hits from a sonar forum where they were talking about setting up a "default performance mode" on the JV itself to use the JV with the sonar gui patch selection. If something similar is required for biab (/RB), that's the info I need.
Again, any advice will be appreciated, especially from JV-1080 users.
Hmm.
I would also like to know the answer to Bob's (rharv) question: how exactly are you trying to access the higher patches now?
I select an instrument button in BIAB and then click on the little plus sign to the left of the volume box. First, you load the .Pat file (once) and then you should be able to select the desired patch from the pull-down menu at left. Do the same for each instrument.
I do NOT set GM mode on in BIAB or the Roland.
I DO set Performance Mode (not Patch Mode) on the Roland, and it can be set to boot up that way.
I do NOT select anything special for the .DK in BIAB; I just let it use the General MIDI. Granted, it has been many years since I cared about MIDI drums when I have RealDrums.
The Roland JV-1080 was very popular but was last produced ten years ago, about the time I started using Roland synths, so my knowledge that is based on their newer units may not be applicable.
Hope that helps.
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The scant 2 pages of instruction in the Roland manual about using the JV-1080 with a desktop computer system states to initalize the GM mode (press >shift>GM) "to play midi scores". This works fine for selecting the limited GM patch bank - 128 patches - through the biab gui. Of course, I'd like access the higher bank patches and expansion card patches through the biab / rb gui for another 1000+ patches.
That is probably old info on using it in GM mode. Most Roalands need to be in performance mode to access extra banks.
If that synth needs a special performance mode set up to work correctly, you'll need another JV1080 user to help.
Accessing higher banks is most reliable using the MSB LSB changes to 'force' the synth to change. This info will be in the MIDI section of the manual. It may not be fun to read, but it is invaluable info. Labor thru the MIDI section of the manual and find what you need to make it work. Like I said earlier, some users like using the 'Classic Tracks' window because you can enter the MSB LSB info there easily.
Reading the manual should help make sense of this. There are two numbers that call up a bank (MSB and LSB - most significant byte and least significant byte) then the program number for that bank.
For example a patch in Bank 22 may use MSB 22 and LSB 1 plus the program change number needed for that patch. All this info will be in the manual if it's a Roland (in my experience anyway).
You can also enter MSB and LSB using control changes in the event list ... but you'll still need access to the info on the numbers needed from the manual.
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How (exactly) are you trying to access the patches now?
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I would also like to know the answer to Bob's (rharv) question: how exactly are you trying to access the higher patches now?
I select an instrument button in BIAB and then click on the little plus sign to the left of the volume box. First, you load the .Pat file (once) and then you should be able to select the desired patch from the pull-down menu at left. Do the same for each instrument.
Good morning. As you do; select an instrument button in BIAB and then click on the ("+") to the left of the volume box. Selecting an instrument in the resulting dialog box changes the patch. Also, entering the MSB, LSB and patch numbers changes the patch.
They are just obviously wrong in with the JV-1080 in GM mode. i.e., selecting a wurly results in a helicopter.
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Most Roalands need to be in performance mode to access extra banks.
If that synth needs a special performance mode set up to work correctly, you'll need another JV1080 user to help.
Yes, got that now, many thanks to you both, Matt, rharv. On the right track, now. At least, no longer beating my head against a wall trying get a pig to fly, e.g. higher banks working in GM Mode.
No JV user help yet, but I did find some useful info on the web also suggesting the JV must be in a "Performance" mode during 'multitimbral sequencing' to access upper banks.
That info was about recording each part of a new performance from a controller keyboard and saving that performance to a user performance preset. The writer stated it was best to select an existing preset performance which already has one patch to each midi channel, no layers, and modify and save it to a user preset. PRA-12 Pop Set was suggested as an ideal preset performance to modify.
I was able to adapt some of that info to modify PRA-12 to create and name a user preset and save it to a user destination. By changing another setting, the JV now boots to that preset if it was the last one used at shutdown.
With this modified preset, patch selection was more successful. (The .pat file I'm using still needs editing to match my configuration.) Navigating through different songs, many patches were changeable through the ("+") dialog.
Very encouraged with the progress, but......
Unfortunately, after turning the JV off and back on, it didn't work.
I overwrote USER Performance 1 (Techno). When I turned the JV back on, it did boot to the modified User Performance 1 preset and it did display the name I had assigned, but the instrument patches playing were back to the overwitten USER1 Techno performance.
$%^#*!
Ok. Each patch/part may need to be saved individually on the JV before saving the performance preset (?). I'll try it again today. I must have missed something.
Question. When opening a new file, the patches playing are the old Techno. Once (if) biab and the JV are correctly set, opening a new file should send a control change for those instruments saved in the biab song file, right? I have just assumed this is so....
Is there a setting for this I'm missing in biab?
I'm getting dizzy.
Seems like this may work, eventually, but if anyone out there has another (*easier*)method, I'd appreciate the course correction.
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Unfortunately, after turning the JV off and back on, it didn't work.
In case it matters, you must also restart BIAB after turning off and on the Roland. BIAB must 'see' the synth when it starts, to have it listed in MIDI devices available. If you turn off the synth, you must restart BIAB.
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Unfortunately, after turning the JV off and back on, it didn't work.
In case it matters, you must also restart BIAB after turning off and on the Roland. BIAB must 'see' the synth when it starts, to have it listed in MIDI devices available. If you turn off the synth, you must restart BIAB.
Thanks Matt! Yes, that does make a difference. Solved one issue. Still working on the others. Thanks again.
Still open for additional guidance.......
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Question. When opening a new file, the patches playing are the old Techno. Once (if) biab and the JV are correctly set, opening a new file should send a control change for those instruments saved in the biab song file, right? I have just assumed this is so....
Is there a setting for this I'm missing in biab?
You likely will not see the patch changes on the synth until you hit 'play' on BiaB. This is when it would send the patch changes via the MIDI out, not when it loads the file.. which is standard for any sequencer/DAW/accompaniment software. Makes sense, you may be loading one song while playing the synth as a segue, or still using it for another song in a live setting, etc. You wouldn't want the patches to change until the new song starts. As an even more 'in-depth' reason for this read on -
Say the patch in the synth has a flange effect to the sound. If it launched the sound when loaded, the flange may start it's cycling then, and depending when you hit play the flange may be at the top of a cycle or the bottom. Having the flange start when triggered by the sequnce ensures the cycle is replicated as desired.. even more true when you use the sequencer to contol an effects module. Nice to know how that effect is going to sound when you need it. We used to 'time' the patch change on both a Boss SE-50 and Yamaha FX-500 effects modules for this reason when using a computer for the click (and lights and video etc).
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You likely will not see the patch changes on the synth until you hit 'play' on BiaB. This is when it would send the patch changes via the MIDI out, not when it loads the file..
Right. So, just like using a vsti softsynth, it is expected that loading a saved biab song, then selecting "play" in the biab gui should load the correct instruments from the style (or the instrument presets previously saved in a biab song) into the JV? Same with "replay", right? (except that "replay" doesn't regenerate the biab arrangement) Thanks
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I do NOT set GM mode on in BIAB or the Roland.
I DO set Performance Mode (not Patch Mode) on the Roland, and it can be set to boot up that way.
I do NOT select anything special for the .DK in BIAB; I just let it use the General MIDI.
Check. Thanks Matt
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it is expected that loading a saved biab song, then selecting "play" in the biab gui should load the correct instruments from the style (or the instrument presets previously saved in a biab song) into the JV?
If they were saved with the song, and in the performance mode of the JV, yes.
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They are just obviously wrong in with the JV-1080 in GM mode. i.e., selecting a wurly results in a helicopter.
This sounds like there may be a numerical difference.
It might just be that your BiaB is set to send "Yamaha-based" Patch nubering scheme, which instead of the standard 001 (Grand Piano) to 128 (helicopter) uses 000 for the Grand piano and 127 for the heli.
If your BB is set to Yamaha or "zero based" patch numbers, it can be confusing as some patches will seem to be playing fthe right instrument but others will be as you have observed.
Inside Band in a Box, under the GM menu, make sure that you have it set to Roland based 1 - 128 and not to Yamaha Zero based. That might be what is happening.
BTW - the helicopter is part of the standard GM bank. If you have tried to invoke an Upper Bank and still are hearing the heli, that is a clue. Shouldn't be any heli on any upper bank.
--Mac
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They are just obviously wrong in with the JV-1080 in GM mode. i.e., selecting a wurly results in a helicopter.
This sounds like there may be a numerical difference.
It might just be that your BiaB is set to send "Yamaha-based" Patch nubering scheme, which instead of the standard 001 (Grand Piano) to 128 (helicopter) uses 000 for the Grand piano and 127 for the heli.
If your BB is set to Yamaha or "zero based" patch numbers, it can be confusing as some patches will seem to be playing fthe right instrument but others will be as you have observed.
Inside Band in a Box, under the GM menu, make sure that you have it set to Roland based 1 - 128 and not to Yamaha Zero based. That might be what is happening.
BTW - the helicopter is part of the standard GM bank. If you have tried to invoke an Upper Bank and still are hearing the heli, that is a clue. Shouldn't be any heli on any upper bank.
--Mac
Thanks for the advice, Mac. Yeah, the gobbedlygook that passes for a Roland Manual states to place the JV-1080 in "GM Mode" for midi score playback. Wrong. Wasted a lot of time following that instruction. The upper banks can't be accessed accurately in the JV's "GM Mode". The JV must be in "Performance Mode" for multitimbral playback from higher banks.
None of the .pat files or converted .ini files I found worked correctly in my JV (most appear to have been customized by their creators for their own patch / expansion card configuration). Some ZEROBASED, some "1" based. With trial and error, I spent much of the day yesterday creating a "1" based .pat file that works for my JV's 4 banks, and three expansion cards. I can now access all patches on each bank accurately from the "+" menu dialogue box. Finally.
A question for anyone - Matt, rharv, Mac - anybody.
Still apparently need to figure out how to correctly save the parts / patches in the default user performance I have created in the JV as a template for sequencing with Biab (Oh, NO! Back into the dreaded $#@%& Roland Manual).
When opening a bb song file and selecting "play" or "replay", the patches from my biab song file aren't getting to the JV:
Turn on the JV-1080 (set to boot to the "Performance Mode" template I created)>
Open Biab>
Select "Play"/"Replay =
The patches from the JV USER performance 1 play, not the patches I saved with my biab song.
I can select each instrument from the bb gui> select "+"> select the patch I need from the drop down> change the instrument patches manually one at time = plays fine.
I'm expecting the JV to receive and play the patch settings from my saved biab song when I select "play" / "replay". But it's not. Am I overlooking some setting in biab? Or some JV-1080 setting?
Thanks again, gentlemen. I very much appreciate your guidance.
Take a look in BIAB at Alt+F2, which is File, Save Song with Patches and Harmony. Make sure all the left-hand column checkboxes are checked, and the Save All Settings With Songs checkbox in the upper right is checked.
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Take a look in BIAB at Alt+F2, which is File, Save Song with Patches and Harmony. Make sure all the left-hand column checkboxes are checked, and the Save All Settings With Songs checkbox in the upper right is checked.
Matt, some song files are marked so and play the right patches, others are so marked and don't. Some I can mark so and save, re-open the file a few songs later and some play, others won't. During playback I can manually select any patch bank. Saving it with those patches, re-opening the file and playing it with those saved patch settings is another story.
Still looking for some clues from anyone using a JV-1080, JV family synth with biab.
Puzzling, in the "file, save w/patches" dialog, the upper patches don't populate when selected from the selct all button. Also, the higher banks are not selectable from the individual instrument drop downs in that dialog - only GM patches. But, it does save those patches - sometimes - when previously selected by clicking the instrument buttons on the main gui one at a time > selecting the "+" upper bank menu dialog > and selcting the patches> and executing the "file save w/patches". But it doesn't show the patches in the dialog.
Curious, those patch selections don't populate in the "file save w/patches" window, but they DO populate in the main bb gui just above the GM drop down.
There's another curious issue in the "+" dialog - when navigating the drop down for selcting an instrument "group" and / or ticking the "family" checkbox. The result is wide variety of seemingly unrelated instruments; e.g. selecting "acoustic piano" or "Trumpet" diplays a list containing bass, sax, drums, flute, pads and other unrelated instruments. Just a few "pianos" or "trumpets" appear on the short list - I have a several dozens of piano patches. It doesn't make sense.
From the above examples, it' not a stretch to speculate that some of these functions for the hardware synths may be orphaned remnants. PG's more recent development has been geared toward RT and soft synth functionality with biab. What do you experience with your hardware? Any similar eccentricities?
Of course it's also very possible I'm not applying some obscure biab setting(s)....
Still working on it.
Do you have an imported MIDI file in some songs, where it might have its own patches?
About the "curious issue in the "+" dialog", yes, I've seen that in the other Roland patch maps. Whoever made and named the patches, or alternatively, whoever made the patch map, chose to call certain patches member of a group a family. Some make sense; many do not.
My alternative: I edited a copy of the patch map to copy those instruments I use all the time to my own groupings at the top of the patch map. It's just a text file, and it's OK to have a particular patch appear more than once in the file. With mine set up in groups named Acoustic, Electric, and Horns, I can almost always find the patch I want at the top of the list.
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Puzzling, in the "file, save w/patches" dialog, the upper patches don't populate when selected from the selct all button. Also, the higher banks are not selectable from the individual instrument drop downs in that dialog - only GM patches. But, it does save those patches - sometimes - when previously selected by clicking the instrument buttons on the main gui one at a time > selecting the "+" upper bank menu dialog > and selcting the patches> and executing the "file save w/patches". But it doesn't show the patches in the dialog.
First, take a look at the RG side of the Save with Patches & Harmony window, make sure that the ability to include LSB and MSB, which are the actual commands used to go to higher banks, is checked before you Save.
The GM dropdown list only refers to GM bank instruments. We can't see the Upper Bank instruments in there, unfortunately. It will show the Patch name from the GM bank that corresponds to the Patch Number from your higher bank, though. Yeah, I know...
--Mac
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First, take a look at the RG side of the Save with Patches & Harmony window, make sure that the ability to include LSB and MSB, which are the actual commands used to go to higher banks, is checked before you Save.
The "RG side of the Save with Patches & Harmony window"... What's that? No settings for msb / lsb are visible or RG anything in the window.
Aha!! The "save all settings with song" checkbox is apparently checked by factory default. **When it is deselected** - poof! - the windows expands to almost double and - viola! - there are the individial settings, along with the "include lsb" checkbox.
Sneaky.....lol.
There isn't a "include msb" checkbox.
Well, since the "save all settings with song" checkbox >was< checked, the lsb is supposed to be saved, right?
There isn't any setting for MSB in the window. No reference to the MSB, Mac. Is the correct MSB included? The MSB's used on the JV1080 are 80:user bank; 81:A,B,C and GM banks; 82, 83, and 84 for memory and expansion card banks. Is the correct MSB (selected in the "+" dialog) included in the "save"? Or does it default to 81 (GM)?
Of course, even if MSB does get saved accurately, it has to be sent by biab to the hardware accurately on "play". That's seems to not always be happening. Maybe the higher MSB's are a problem.
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Do you have an imported MIDI file in some songs, where it might have its own patches?
No imported midi. Unless it was in the styles/songs included/created in biab v.2009 thru 2011.
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About the "curious issue in the "+" dialog", yes, I've seen that in the other Roland patch maps. Whoever made and named the patches, or alternatively, whoever made the patch map, chose to call certain patches member of a group a family. Some make sense; many do not.
My alternative: I edited a copy of the patch map to copy those instruments I use all the time to my own groupings at the top of the patch map. It's just a text file, and it's OK to have a particular patch appear more than once in the file. With mine set up in groups named Acoustic, Electric, and Horns, I can almost always find the patch I want at the top of the list.
Matt, yeah, I have also edited the physical position of the text listings in the .pat for convenience. Will probably try some favorite grouping, as you suggest. Great idea, Matt. I read in in the narrative of one of the patch files that a biab .pat has a 1,000 line limit. Is this still so?
In the "+" dialog, when an instrument is selected from the pull down menu, the search result sure isn't "keyed" to the text descriptors. e.g., select "piano", the results vary and include descriptors without the word "piano". Therefore, it must be keyed to the msb, lsb and/or patch numbers - as these numbers are the only other characters appearing in the .pat. My guess is that the programming that was used in this function probably pre-dates msb/lsb.
Maybe PG can update this function.
In the "+" dialog, the "search" button *is* keyed to the text descriptors. But "all" patches must be displayed and the result simply finds and highlights - one at a time - the next corresponding text - one at a time - while displaying the *entire .pat list*. To find and highlight the next match, the "search button" dialog must be opened and "ok" selected, again....and again...and again.
It would make much more sense and be much quicker and easier for the "search" function to populate a new display result which displays >only the matches< - not the entire freaking 1,000 entries of the .pat.
Maybe PG can update this function, too.
Yes, I know what you mean. I never go below that first line of all patches; if you go into Piano or others below, you are constrained by what someone thought were the piano patches, which is a mess as we've pointed out. I didn't see how to fix that easily (and I'm a programmer) so I ignored it.
A limit of 1000 lines in a BIAB .PAT file? That is news to me. I'll check the length of mine. Not only do I have all the patches for the Roland Fantom XR, but many that I like are doubled and grouped at the top, and then I have five add-on modules each with one or two hundred patches of their own. I never ran into a problem.
[EDIT: one of my patch files with 'everything' appears to be just over 1,400 lines long.]
Yep, the "+" window functions are a mess.
Well. I'll call support and ask if an update is possible. If PG won't or can't change the (dys)funtionality, I'll just have to bite the bullet and spend the hours doing some major editing of the .pat file patches into instrument groups, as you have, Matt.
Hey, wait! Isn't Biab supposed to be fun? lol
Re: the "unsaved patches" / JV-1080 playback in my biab song files:
The best theory I have is that the offending files originated on my laptops with previous builds ie, Biab 2009, 2010.
I use the lappys like a portable scratch pad for jotting down ideas when away from my desktop DAW. Then take the file to my desktop with all it's hardware, higher quality audio processing, softsynths, daw software, etc. for further processing. I have a fresh install of biab 2011, now build 317, on the pc.
It seems that most of the biab files I'm having those patch troubles with on the hardware synth, JV-1080, originated on the lappies. I use NI Bandstand, Garritan or Roland softsynths on the lappies. Of course, they're GM.
On the pc, Biab plays these saved GM files ok with softsynths. The hardware synth, JV-1080 will play *some* , not many, of these biab files ok *when switched to GM mode*.
I haven't found *one* of these created-on-another-machine-files that will play correctly *through the JV* when it's in "Performance Mode" - it does not play the GM patches from the biab song file, just the patches native to the "Performance 1 Template" created and saved in the JV-1080 itself. Obviously, the patch message isn't getting through. (Weird, when the file loads on biab/pc, the correct patch names appear in the main Biab Gui for each instrument button, but don't play through the JV.)
Now, get this....
If I load a created-on-another-machine-file in biab on the pc, then *re-select* the same instrument patches through the "+" dialog, *re-save* the patches through the "File, Save with Patches..." window - it works! Re-load the file and it plays the just re-saved GM patches fine through the JV in the very same Performance Mode using the very same Performance 1 Template. I do not understand why, but, apparently, the problem may be resolved by re-saving each of the files as above. This worked on a dozen or so files I tried this morning. {keeps fingers crossed}
Not a clue why this is so. GM is GM.....? I guess some midi message is getting lost.
I understand what you are saying, but I cannot help explain the inconsistencies. I suggest you call PG Music Support. See if you can get Kent or Andrew on the line. Again, about the patch 'families', I'm not sure that PG Music can do anything about that.
Hello Lawrence,
Is this your synth here, and is this the correct manual?
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=495If the term "Bank" is used in Band-in-a-Box anywhere without specifying lsb or msb, (including the save song with patches dialog), then it is referring to Bank MSB.
There are three numbers you need to know, to be able to access any patch on your synth. (1) Program # (2)Bank MSB or controller 0, (3) Bank LSB or controller 32. You have different ways of specifying these numbers in Band-in-a-Box.
One way is to enter them in manually. To do this, use the Instrument pull-down menu to choose the (1) Program #, enter (2) into the Bank0 box, and enter (3) into the BankLSB box. You find these numbers by looking at your synth manual.
Try muting all tracks except the Melody track, enter a few notes into the Melody track notation window, then experiment with changing those three numbers, and playing the song. That is the simplest way for you to see what is going on. If you do not hear what you are expecting, then open the MIDI Monitor (Window menu) and filter it to only show Program, controller0, and controller32, then play the song to reassure yourself that BB is indeed sending the synth the MIDI data.
If it is sending the data but you're not hearing what you expect, then it's likely that either you're not in the correct mode on your synth, or you have the numbers wrong.
The other way of specifying patches is to use the [+] higher banks dialog. There isn't anything magical about the dialog. It simply allows you to "pre-program" a patch map file with all the numbers, so you can simply open this dialog and select the patch by name, rather than having to refer to your manual all the time. (the dialog has a couple other useful features, but that is not important).
Note that older versions of Band-in-a-Box required you to "save song with patches" after choosing custom patches for your song. But this isn't necessary with the current version. You shouldn't have to use that dialog, and the default is that all settings are saved automatically.
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Assuming that's your synth and the correct manuals, take a look at Page 7 of the PDF called "MIDI sequencing with the JV-1080".
The first, second, and fourth columns are your three numbers. Now you need to find the list of actual patch names (i.e. the specific number between 1 and 127 for column 4). This is in the PDF called "JV-1080 Patch List".
(There are also patch lists in the full manual on page 124).
Next, do you have patch lists for your expansion cards? If so, we'd have all the information we need to make a complete patch map for your synth + expansion cards...
Hi Andrew. Thank you for posting a reply. From reading through some of the forums, you have quite the reputation as a highly knowledgeable Biab guru and I very much appreciate your taking the time to post your advice. Apologies in advance for the long post.
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Is this your synth here, and is this the correct manual?
Correct, I have a pair of Roland JV-1080 synths. I have the hard copy manual, as well as the owners manual .pdf and each of the supplemental .pdf's.
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If the term "Bank" is used in Band-in-a-Box anywhere without specifying lsb or msb, (including the save song with patches dialog), then it is referring to Bank MSB.
That's good to know, Andrew. Thanks.
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There are three numbers you need to know, to be able to access any patch on your synth. (1) Program # (2)Bank MSB or controller 0, (3) Bank LSB or controller 32. You have different ways of specifying these numbers in Band-in-a-Box.
Yep, have that down.
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One way is to enter them in manually. To do this, use the Instrument pull-down menu to choose the (1) Program #, enter (2) into the Bank0 box, and enter (3) into the BankLSB box.
Yes, that method works with JV-1080 in "Performance Mode". With the caveat that the patch doesn't change on the fly by just entering the MSB and LSB in the boxes. The patches only change when "Play" or "Replay" button selected after entering the numbers. This method does not work to change the patch while the song is playing. I have not previously used this method, but it seems to access all the patches from each bank tested - GM, higher bank presets and expansion cards.
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The other way of specifying patches is to use the [+] higher banks dialog.
The "+" dialog method works (is easier to use) and it immediately changes the patch on the fly while the song is playing. I have been using this method. I can access all the GM, higher bank presets and expansion card patches with JV in "Performance Mode" as presiously described.
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If it is sending the data but you're not hearing what you expect, then it's likely that either you're not in the correct mode on your synth, or you have the numbers wrong.
Well that was the original issue. The Roland manual states to "use GM Mode for midi score playback". However, in "GM Mode", the JV-1080 wouldn't access higher banks/expansion cards. With help from Matt and rharv, above, we have already determined that the JV-1080 must be in "Performance Mode" to access higher banks.
I have all the patch lists for the JV presets and my installed expansion cards. And I have created a .pat file, (as none that I found on the PG support page or elsewhere worked correctly). With the JV in Performance Mode, using my own .pat, both MSB/LSB number entry and selection through the "+" dialog are successful. I can access all my patches and that particular issue is resolved.
However, when I open a Biab song file with the JV-1080 in "Performance Mode" the correct patches do not play.
For example, I opened "Jay's Blues" from the 50 Songs folder included with Biab 2011. The melody instrument (as stated in the song memo) is GM Trumpet. When Jay's Blues opens in Biab, the Trumpet patch is diplayed in the main gui as the Melody instrument. What plays is a keyboards patch, not Trumpet.
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....open the MIDI Monitor (Window menu) and filter it to only show Program, controller0, and controller32, then play the song to reassure yourself that BB is indeed sending the synth the MIDI data.
I tried using the midi monitor, as you suggested, to see what was happening. The dialog presented intricate options and multiple checkboxes which were not referenced in your instruction, Andrew, so I selected the Help Button in the Midi Monitor dialog. The Help Button didn't work. (Please see NOTE A: below for details)
Since getting the midi monitor to work, as you suggested, Andrew, appeared to be a cumbersome sidetrack, I didn't pursue it and can not report precisely what messages/patches were sent by Biab or played on the JV.
I am able to change the melody patch in Jay's Blues with either the MSB/LSB number method or the "+" dialog.
If I re-select the GM trumpet, so the GM Trumpet patch plays, close the Jay's Blues file, reopen it, it plays the correct GM Trumpet on the melody with the JV-1080 in the same "Performance Mode".
If you're still reading along, this question is the point:
Why does the GM Trumpet patch not play when the file was first opened?
More to the point of my frustration, as in the above Jay's Blues example, the same thing happens when I open one of my own Biab song files created with "save patches..." in earlier versions of Biab as described earlier in the thread.
I do understand that you, Andrew, and this PG forum offer support for Biab, not my hardware synth. If the solution is within the Biab configuration, with your level of expertise I expect that you will be able to provide one. I also realize that the soultion could be some setting on the JV. If the latter is the case, I'd appreciate any clues as to what search keywords to use in the tome that passes for a Roland manual.
Thanks
Lawrence
(NOTE A: I tried using the midi monitor, as you suggested. The dialog presented intricate options and checkboxes which were not referenced in your instruction, Andrew, so I selected the help button. Help didn't work. A windows message displayed a link to kb917607 which reads, in part:
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Excerpt from kb917607:
".....Microsoft stopped including the 32-bit Help file viewer in Windows releases beginning with Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008. To support customers who still rely on legacy .hlp files, the Microsoft Download Center provides WinHlp32.exe downloads for Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008, and Windows Server 2008 R2.
Special note for Help content providers who ship .hlp files
Starting with the release of Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008, third-party software developers are no longer authorized to redistribute WinHlp32.exe with their programs. For more information, see the "More information for Help content providers who are shipping .hlp files" section. "
Apparently, this part of Biab "help" coding in the Midi Monitor dialog is outdated and is no longer supported in Windows, FYI.)
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The other way of specifying patches is to use the [+] higher banks dialog.....
so you can simply open this dialog and select the patch by name, rather than having to refer to your manual all the time. (the dialog has a couple other useful features, but that is not important).
Andrew, please see earlier comments about the features in the "+" dialog. Matt, with his years of Biab experience, agrees with my recent experience that these dialog features "are a mess".
The instrument select drop down and the search button features I find practically useless. Is it possible for these features be improved? Some possible improvements were suggested earlier.
Thanks
Lawrence
Lawrence, if you agree, I would like to look over your .PAT file, in case I spot something different from mine.
I'm sending my email in a PM.
Hi,
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When Jay's Blues opens in Biab, the Trumpet patch is diplayed in the main gui as the Melody instrument. What plays is a keyboards patch, not Trumpet.
bb\50SONGS\JAYS_BLS.MG1, at least the unmodified shipping version, does not have a Melody patch saved with it. This means that if your Melody track is currently set to "79 Whistle", when you open Jays Blues and play it, your melody will play whistle. However, if you were to change the melody patch to Trumpet and save the file, say as JAYS_BLS_2.MG1, and open THAT file, then you find that the melody track would always play trumpet.
This is because the current version of Band-in-a-Box defaults to saving the melody patch with your song (unless you disable that option in the save with patches dialog).
I think you would still find MIDI Monitor useful. Yes we should update the help to chm. By default it will be a "stay on top" window, so you can open and play files while watching it. Here are my filter settings, followed by an example of opening and playing a file. I am only showing the melody channel 4.
My question is, when you are in performance mode and you send your synth BankMSB 0, BankLSB 0, does that default to the GM bank (D), or do you actually need to send the synth BankMSB 81, BankLSB 3 to access the GM bank. If it's the latter, then I wonder if there is a setting to change that on the synth. There isn't an easy way in BB to tell it to remap all patches on bank 0 to a higher bank, however you could probably accomplish this with a tool like MIDI Ox.
The reason I ask is that when you said you heard keyboard instead of trumpet, this might make sense if it was playing 057 60s LeadOrg from the Preset A bank instead of 057 Trumpet from the Preset D GM bank.
Hi Andrew. Thanks again for your advice.
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bb\50SONGS\JAYS_BLS.MG1, at least the unmodified shipping version, does not have a Melody patch saved with it. This means that if your Melody track is currently set to "79 Whistle", when you open Jays Blues and play it, your melody will play whistle. However, if you were to change the melody patch to Trumpet and save the file, say as JAYS_BLS_2.MG1, and open THAT file, then you find that the melody track would always play trumpet.
This is because the current version of Band-in-a-Box defaults to saving the melody patch with your song (unless you disable that option in the save with patches dialog).
Thanks. I get it. When I opened the song memo yesterday for JAYS_BLS.MG1 it read "melody has 187 notes, saved patch is 57 Trumpet". My incorrect assumption was that this was supposed to be the patch playing "by default" when the file opened. Apologies for my confusion. I did not fully understand how that worked, now I do. Thanks
After reading your post, I opened the file, cleared the chord sheet >"New", changed the melody instrument button to Jazz Organ and re-opened the file. Opened the song menu and the notation had changed to "...saved patch is Jazz Organ 18". Did that several times to confirm that understand that function. Got it, now. Thanks
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I think you would still find MIDI Monitor useful. Yes we should update the help to chm. By default it will be a "stay on top" window, so you can open and play files while watching it. Here are my filter settings, followed by an example of opening and playing a file. I am only showing the melody channel 4.
Thank you for those setting details, Andrew. Initially, I couldn't select or deselect the "x" in any one channel by clicking the box. THEN by chance I found you have to CLICK ON THE TEXT - NEXT to a checkbox. I did obtain those settings and played several files, making patch changes. Yes, each changed appropriately to the expected sound and patch number.
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My question is, when you are in performance mode and you send your synth BankMSB 0, BankLSB 0, does that default to the GM bank (D)....
Andrew, I'm not certain, but I think it is. When I load a GM song, JV in performance mode, the biab gui displays MSB 0, LSB 0. The midi monitor shows MSB 0, LSB 0, Program number equals -1 from the selected .pat patch number (corrected for 0 based, right?) and expected midi patches play.
One thing that was throwing me off was the melody (or soloist) I was keying on monitoring the patch changes. I was expecting the patches were "saved", in many instances, through my own misunderstanding. But, as you clarified above, Andrew, with the Jay's Blues example, some were not saved patches at all.
Much of my confusion and frustration arose from expecting the melody patch to change to what I expected to be a saved patch, which wasn't. Ok, guilty, I confess my ignorance, lol. I've had biab and rb for a couple of years but I haven't really delved into biab or used it a primary tool other than just sketching out ideas and taking them elsewhere. I next to never open rb. The learning curve on these programs has just seemed too steep to expect rapid proficiency.
So, I'll digest all this, play with the midi monitor some more over the weekend, and if I'm still not clear I'll post Monday. Thanks again to Andrew, Matt, Mac, rharv et. al.
A Roland synth should be 1-based, not zero-based.
Easy to tell, take a look at the GM bank listing in your manual, if it is listed as "001" for the first Grand Piano, then your synth is one-based.
Takes a bit to sort out MIDI stuff, well worth the effort, though.
--Mac
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A Roland synth should be 1-based, not zero-based.
Easy to tell, take a look at the GM bank listing in your manual, if it is listed as "001" for the first Grand Piano, then your synth is one-based.
Takes a bit to sort out MIDI stuff, well worth the effort, though.
--Mac
Hi Mac. Yes, takes a bit of sorting out....
Excerpt from the Roland Manual:
SELECTING A PATCH
MSB--LSB--ProgramChange------PatchGroup-------------------PatchNumber
80-----0----------0-127--------------User-----------------------------#1-128
81-----0----------0-127--------------Preset A-------------------------#1-128
81-----1----------0-127--------------Preset B-------------------------#1-128
81-----2----------0-127--------------Preset C-------------------------#1-128
81-----3----------0-127--------------Preset D(General Midi)-----------#1-128
84-----0----------0-127--------------Expansion A (POP)----------------#1-128
84-----1----------0-127--------------Expansion A (POP)----------------#129-256
84-----2----------0-127--------------Expansion B(SESSION)-------------#1-128
84-----3----------0-127--------------Expansion B(SESSION)-------------#129-256
etc.
So, as I understand it, the numbers that must be sent from biab to the JV:
- to select patch number 1, Piano 1, Preset D (General Midi),
MSB: 81 LSB: 3 ProgramChange: 0
- to select patch number 47, Super Tenor (Sax), Expansion B (Session),
MSB: 84 LSB: 2 ProgramChange: 46
- to select patch number 240, Demo Tenor (Sax), Expansion B (Session).
MSB: 84 LSB: 3 Program Change: 239
The Program Change numbers begin at zero. Patch number begins at 1.
So the Program Change is always -1 from the desired Patch number.
The Patch numbering is what's referenced in zerobased vs. 1 based?
Roland PROGRAM CHANGE numbering is 0-127. Roland PATCH numbering is 1-128, so Roland is "1" based....
Am I understasnding this correctly?
Sooooo... when viewing the Midi Monitor window, with Melody playing Session Patch number 240 Demo Tenor (Sax) ...the Midi Monitor window line displaying "Program" refers to "PROGRAM CHANGE" and should read Program=239 (which is -1 of the desired PATCH number 240 Demo Tenor Sax).
Do I have this right? Or does "Program" in the midi monitor window REALLY mean "PATCH NUMBER"??? And should actually display #240?
Hmmm. I wonder. Could the originators of this system have made this any more confusing............
Lawrence
Lawrence, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's silently following this thread. I want to say you are doing an admirable job in following this through and you're very good at describing both the problems you're having and detailing exactly what you're doing and then kudo's to Andrew for his detailed information as well.
Your comment "Could the originators of this system have made this any more confusing?" is right on brother. I have the newer Roland Sonic Cell and I think I've made a bit more progress with it than you have with your JV but I'm no expert at this by any means. I just built a new PC and I have a complex EMU 1820M system with Emulator X plus a bunch of softsynths. I was going to install all that last weekend but decided I was going to learn all I can about getting the most out of my Sonic Cell first and I'm having similar problems you are in figuring this all out. I keep going back to why I decided to keep everything GM just because who has time to sort all this other MSB, LSB, different systems for program changes etc, etc out? It's just ridiculous sometimes. I see people continually posting a version of this: I don't want to be a #^&$&* computer programmer, I just want to make some music! Well no problem if you keep it all GM but you want to go further, you're into technogeek land and that has nothing to do with music. That little weird thing in the midi monitor you discovered for example. I gave up on that thing several years ago. You're trying to do something musical and you wind up wasting a whole afternoon tracking down something like this. That thing with the help file I noticed that too but I'm not blaming PG, every program I've ever used has stuff like that in them. That's just the name of the game with music programs.
Anyway, I've already learned a lot from this thread I for one want to encourage you to keep it up and keep posting your results here. You're doing a great job and you're showing way more patience than I have trying to figure all this out.
Bob
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Roland PATCH numbering is 1-128, so Roland is "1" based....
Am I understanding this correctly?
Yes.
Also, your patch map looked fine.
Hi Bob. Welcome to the party. And thanks for the encouragement.
Agree with you completely regarding Andrew's highly competant and detailed explanations. Thanks again Andrew.
Yeah, Bob, I've previously been using software synths. The advantages, in my experience, are that they sound great and are very convenient as plugins. The down side I've found is the latency and higher cpu useage - the latecny I find particularly annoying. (My instrument is guitar, the Roland midi guitar controller already has about all the latency I can tolerate.)
To get my feet wet with hardware synths, I picked up a couple of inexpensive used JV's for trial before investing the big bucks for more contemporary hardware.
So here I am.
Dealing with the learning curve with new hardware is tough enough. Then getting into previously unexplored areas of software programs like Biab, RB, etc. - and learning their idosyncracies - to utilize the new hardware just serves to compound the "pucker" factor. lol
In the beginning, when digesting all the new information, a lot of terms sound alike and seem to be synonymous and interchangeable in some contexts - like Program Change and Program (patch) - but when getting into the fine details, they are not.
Yes, and all software has it's own little foibles, it seems.
It just floors me sometimes. Stuff like the Biab song memo reading "melody is 179 notes, saved patch is Trumpet". Silly me! I thought that the statement "saved patch is 57 Trumpet" actually meant the '57 Trumpet patch was saved' in the song file.............
Or checkboxes. Every checkbox I've ever met is selected or deselected by CLICKING IN THE BOX. That Mid Monitor window really threw me when clicking in the box was completely unresponsive. For a moment I thought I was loosing grip on reality. lol
Turns out, clicking the adjacent unremarkable text (no highlight or any other indication the text is active) changes the checkbox. A definite "pucker factor" increase.
These little idiosyncrancies or inconsistencies can really throw one off track when venturing into new territory in a program. Once encountered and learned, though, one just makes a mental note of such things and moves on. It can be maddening at the time, just the way it is, it seems.
Thanks again, Bob, for your comments and encouragement. Good luck with your new hardware setup, I'm a little green with envy.
Lawrence
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Also, your patch map looked fine.
Matt, thanks for looking over my .pat.
Lawrence