Hi All
please dont shoot the messenger!!
On another music forum I was using a full RT backing track with one of my tunes and it was "suggested" that these are not HUMAN people playing REAL guitars, pianos, accordions etc etc but very very good midi. None of it is ACTUAL, its ALL midi, whether its called a Real Track or not.
Before I send the boys round to his house (lol!) can I have an official explanation of why he might think this so - if its not true.
cheers
ian

As I understand it, Real Tracks are actual recordings of real human players on their real instruments. That's why you sometimes get the occasional noise glitch.

Now, I suspect a number of the posted User Tracks were created from MIDI sources played through high quality synths, but the RealTracks themselves are real instruments and the RealDrums were played on real drum sets and recorded in stereo (which is partly why you can't break them down into their individual components). I think some of the piano parts may be recorded through a digital piano (which aids in transcription), but the actual playing is real, not notes from a MIDI source. I suspect that the session artists that contributed to them wouldn't allow their names to be associated with them were they not real.

I'd say show them some examples of pedal steel guitar and some fiddle solos. Ask them to find examples ANYWHERE of someone doing MIDI pedal steel well enough to make it sound real.

If that doesn't convince them, then I'd say, ignore them - their loss - you have real tracks backing up your music... the best musicians in the world, at that...

Give 'em a wink and walk away...

Many folks have difficulty accepting the notion that computer algorithms can time stretch and pitch change a, yes, real player's track. But that is the genius of RealTracks. Tell them to deal with it :-)

Hi Floyd
a long walk - he's in South Africa!!
LOL!
I hope you are doing good, my friend. My family are out on AMI this week and next. We cant be there this year. Sob!
Cheers
ian

Blasphemy

Let me know next time...



You have to learn to ignore those people. Let 'em have their opinions. Let 'em have their MIDI. Let 'em have their "I only do [whatever]"...

We have BIAB. It is magical. Truly. The best revenge is having backing tracks played by the likes of Brent Mason, John Jarvis, Andy Leftwich...

This is why I agree with the advice of several wise forum members here who have said it is best just to avoid the conversation. As soon as you start trying to explain how this works you will either 1) lose them in the details or 2) get into an argument about whether it is real or not!

As to the validity of their point...I would have to admit there is some! I always wonder whether the output RealTracks, in the new key I selected, at a different tempo than how it was recorded, maybe starts to become closer to computer-generated and further from "real"! Chord voicings is another one I wonder about after I have transposed my tune. And then there is that occasional awkward transition from one bar to the next that a live player would likely not do. (And yes, I do know I can edit these things and regenerate, etc.)

So, yeah, I'd say an ace musician could probably tell the difference between custom session work and RealTracks. But, as a practical matter, I really don't care! And back to my original point...I'll just choose not to have the conversation!

Yeah.. I've heard that kind of thing in the Cakewalk forums. They either think it's midi or call it cheating.

All that aside.... the truth is, you can open your real track folder and navigate to any of the various sub folders and open them and see the actual wave tracks. Listen to them.

They are NOT midi, using a good synth. They are actual live players...hence the names of the players in the RT list.

As Floyd said.... No steel synth or fiddle synth running a midi track can sound remotely close. I have had people PM me and ask me who I had playing the fiddle and steel.

I try to avoid the conversations about RT & BB in other forums because I don't need the drama and grief of dealing with folks who refuse to believe BB/RB is a real, and viable way to render real instrument tracks.

If people are open to new ideas and ask, I will bend over backwards explaining BB and RB and how it works so they can understand. Several folks have picked up BB as a result of discussions about the music and how good it sounds after discussing things with me.

I have been using BIAB since version 7 for DOS, which came on two 3-1/2" floppies, in the mid 1990s. Every time I showed it to someone, it ended being called, in one way or another, "cheating." Eventually I quit trying.

Richard

Edited to add: Do the $99 deal, then upgrade to the UltraPlusPAK during the December sale. You can thank me later.

+1 John (jFord). And when you've heard some of those occasional noises there's NO DOUBT it's a real person because in some cases you can hear breathing, tapping, maybe a getting into it grunt, string noise....

A few times over the years I've thought what the heck was that noise and then solo'd to hear - it's kind of cool when you hit one that has that little extra ump that slipped into the recording...

I love Realtracks. If someone is convinced they're hearing midi, I wouldn't take that person too seriously.

When somebody says "it is Midi" just smile.

You know it isn't.

And be proud of that really ingenious synth that has real intonation on trumpet, cool pedal work for the pedal steel, extra cider movements -- excuse me, not cider but strong bow -- and features on other instruments that are yet not possible to be mimicked in Midi.

(From a sales person's point of view: Smile. The last one who talks loses.)
(A German proverb: He who excueses, accuses himself.)
(From Les Paul, after his mother told him she had heard him on the radio when he wasn't: "I invented something that she couldn't mistake somebody else for me anymore.")

When somebody says "it is Midi" just smile.


Edit: because suddenly it was published during the writing process...

Hi folks thanks for the support! Didnt need it really - I'm a bit evangelical over our awesome RTs - but my friend in SA is utterly convinced that it is all midi. Grr!
SO - I've set him a task. I've sent him one of my ALL RT SGU's and simply asked him to send me back the midi file he makes from it. He may be some time!!!
Cheers
ian

I agree. I use RTs, mostly for clients who want to record a vocal. They are amazed at how fast and how real sounding backing tracks I can get for them for them by using RTS. However:



Is not true anymore. Check these out to see what I mean. Note you can get the identical results at home as you can on these demos:

Pedal Steel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWjRTeIO2fg
http://www.wavelore.com/products.php?product=WLPS

trumpet: http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_trumpet.php

strings: http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/audiodemos_diamond.html

I am not trying to start a war, I am just trying to set the record straight. There is a lot of misinformation out about MIDI, especially on this site. IMHO this is because people compare RTs with the crappy GM MIDI sound source that comes with their products. I agree that comparing those two sound sources RTs win hands down. But there is another world of sound sources out there if one wants to explore. A world where a lot of musicians and music companies live.

that would be .. the first person to talk loses.

Mario - like you, I'm not trying to "start a war"... but.. those pedal steel examples sound like ... good MIDI representations of pedal steel, not like a real pedal steel. It - and a good fiddle solo - are still the things that I have never heard "done right" via MIDI.

Your sax/wind controller stuff - EXCELLENT - as good as real... some things can be done - you've proved that...

respectfully,
floyd


btw... in fact... it was the never-ending search for "how do I get pedal steel and fiddle (that sounds "real") in my songs at home" that lead me to BIAB 3 years ago. End of search.

Hi Floyd.

You may be right on the Pedal Steel. I am not really familiar with real pedal steel. I have only played one gig with one the time I helped a band that desperately needed a lead guitarist for the night. Plus I very rarely use one in my music. So in my mind this VSTi sounded the most realistic one that I have never heard. Those who play one or are very familiar with one can tell the difference.

Which brings me to the fact that I have never heard a good MIDI guitar either. I'll bet you haven't either!

I also know very little about fiddle solos but I do know that I have never heard a good MIDI one.

But it is just a matter of time IMHO before someone comes out with good MIDI sound sources for those instruments. If you remember they used to say the same thing about sax, trumpet, oboe, well just about all wind instruments but now they are all expertly covered.

Just my thoughts.

I'm still waiting!!
Ian

Maybe it was the picture, maybe it was the sound -- it probably was a combination of both: it sounded like a piano with a pedal steel sound. Yes, what I have heard is by far the best midi steel. This one is okay for backing sounds where they are disguised in a sound carpet. If it plays a lead solo, well, it is a piano sounding like a pedal steel.

But often the difficult instruments sound like a piano. The beginning of a note and the ending of a note are often clearly defined, but on most instruments there is not one beginning and not one end. There are multiple variants of both. A piano has only one for a start, a felt hammer hits the key. (Yes I know there are nuances depending of the speed you hit the key.) And two for the ending: 1. it fades, 2. it is stopped by another felt.

But still, I didn't know about that one, it is worth investigating. And in most cases this will be faster and still sufficiant -- compared to set up my pedal steel and practice half a year to play one or two licks.

And by the way, I would not engage in a war. It is not efficiently used energy. You people are too nice for that.

I don't like to get into wars either however when I disagree with what someone has written I always add that statement. I may not agree with someone but I do respect their right to say whatever is on their mind. What I say is just my opinion and others may agree or disagree.

I agree people here are very nice.

peace

Maybe you need to tell them about how commercial songs are made in studios that they listen to on the radio/tv etc. When was the last time they heard a busker doing hard tuning with chorus and delay on purpose?!:-)

I echo Floyd's comments. The end of my search was BB. Once I heard the steel guitar it was mission accomplished.

I have yet to find any VST that replicates certain instruments properly. Fiddle and Steel are just 2 that I deal with in my music. Horns are also notoriously hard to replicate with midi. There are several sample packs now that do articulate the horns better. Guitar synths are also coming along nicely.

However, to this point in time, BiaB and RB are the only products on the market that do fiddle and steel properly.

I had a song of mine posted in the cakewalk forum. It had a fiddle fill or perhaps a solo in it... I don't recall which song it was. But, a guy who ran a studio for a living, and is a highly respected contributor in the CW forums commented on the song regarding the fiddle solo. His comment was, "Man, that sounds so real I can hear the rosin on the bow and the strings"...... you can not get that kind of sound with a fiddle VST using midi I don't care how long you set and program the midi note control parameters.

On the wavelore steel VST..... it sounds like a bad midi piano that lets you bend the notes.

4 years ago I had this discussion: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Pedal-Steel-Guitar-Synth-m2356828.aspx

BTW - I'm still waiting!!!lol!
Ian

So I'm not the only one who has the impression it is a piano trying to sound like a steel guitar.

lol

Here's the same setup (Kontakt and keyboard input) by a guy with a little more technological ability it appears.

Gary White - Wavelore Pedal Steel Demo

His demo, while still not perfect, is the best midi Pedal steel I've heard. The actual demo starts around 1:32 but it is worthwhile to listen to the entire video if you have time. He gives a good explanation of the scripting and midi programming involved to create the sound.

Or if you are an IPAD fan -
Pedal steel for the Ipad or Iphone

Pedal Steel New features Tutorial

Hi Ian,

Tell your friend that I live in Benoni in South Africa and if he comes to visit me I will show him the source files on my PC and demo for him how its done...

Henry..

Yeah... imagine the learning curve. You have to first and foremost, be fairly proficient with playing a keyboard. Then, you need to understand all the things he's discussing such as the neck positions and what you can and cannot do at each. It never shows in this video what he had to do on the keyboard to record this stuff in to the midi track.

Yeah, it sounds much better than the wavelore demo's. You would think the factory demo would have been done better, huh? I did see a video a few years ago where you could see what the player was doing on the keys.... Sorry, I could not find it. It was very well done and the audio sounded like a steel guitar. It almost convinced me to buy it and try it until about that same time I discovered that BB/RB also did steel, and PG was offering a 100% MBG..... Wavelore was not. They have a free trial version. As I recall, there was little documentation with it. playing around with it in my DAW, I couldn't get that clean steel sound. Heck it might still be in the laptop.

The good side to the wavelore is, if you can play keys well enough, and can get the steel player mindset, the possibility exists to play some specific melody lines. That's something that RB will not do. However, for my purposes, the steel in my tunes essentially need to do fills and the occasional solo, and BB/RB does that kind of thing extremely well. So far, I have not had the absolute need for a steel to play the melody.

Anyway.... 2 more of my cents

>>> it was "suggested" that these are not HUMAN people playing REAL guitars, pianos, accordions etc etc but very very good midi. None of it is ACTUAL, its ALL midi, whether its called a Real Track or not.


Yes, the RealTracks and RealDrums are real people playing real instruments. Even the pianos are real - we record on a Yamaha Disklavier Grand piano - this has the advantage of recording the notes used - but it is the audio recording that we use. Out of the 1,500 RealTracks that we've done, a few are intended to be synth sounds - and those are recorded on a synth of course, because there is no "real instrument" for those.

I imagine it has to be somewhat rewarding to have a product that even professionals think it's too good to be true and real but in the end, it really is that good and is actually real.

Thank you for taking time to repsond, Peter.
C Fogle - your quote is spot on!
I guess where my SA friend is coming from is that he is seeing midi files for some, I guess, Piano files when he transfers them to RB for further work and so has come to the conclusion that they ALL must be like that.
Also - can anyone confirm that some RD tracks are or are not recorded using electronic drums sets, as he says he is sure that some RDs have midi files available? I think he been drinking too much "Home Brew"!! lol!
regards and thank you for all the input from everyone.
Ian

Peter Gannon mentioned somw time ago that RealDrums are recorded to stereo files and the midi is transcribed by a human that is listening to the stereo files.

Poor Man!! I wonder what you have to have done wrong that day to get THAT job!!??
Ian

Everything should have midi triggers on to record midi also not just the Yamaha piano, these can be used for realcharts, realdrumcharts and virtual instruments.