water direction in toilets - PG Music Forums

OK, new thread. As you recall in our last episode, the following exchange was made:

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... and the water goes a different direction when you flush the toilet, ...

Actually, the direction that water spins when going down a drain is up to chance. It can take either clockwise or counterclockwise direction, independent of whether or not you happen to be in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere.

http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/coriolis.html

--Mac

I think the key point in the article was this:

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It all depends upon how the water was introduced and the geometric structure of the drain.

All that means is that specific physical considerations can override the coreolis effect, which is weak. But I contend that in the absence of assignable cause, the rule is generally true as stated.

So here's a test: I'm asking everybody to notice which way the water flows next time you flush the toilet. Then report back to this thread. Due to the existence of design elements that can influence the direction, we won't have 100% consistency... but I'm looking for a trend. True randomness should produce a 50-50 result.

but results skewed in one direction or the other, even if not 100%, would indicate there's something at work overriding randomness..

http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

You're likely going to need a few thousand tests to get any significant statistical results.

In any event, even the slightest non-symmetrical shape or the slightest unobservable convection currents in the water will determine how the water moves - think of the "butterfly effect".

I guess what I'm saying is (I'm an applied scientist - structural engineer), and while I firmly believe the theory is correct, a hands on test that is not strictly controlled in a lab but done in one's bathroom or kitchen sink DOES NOT adhere to good scientific protocol for testing, and may be even more meaningless than many of the tests done by the pharmaceutical industry these days to prove their drugs are effective and safe.

OK, I've opened up another even larger can of worms, but can anyone NOT think of a recent class action lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company? The first one I recall was against thalidomide (mid sixties).

Glenn

Awww, you're no fun Glenn

I think the complexity of pharmaceutical studies where innumerable physiological variants and genetic predispositons come into play with the chemicals is not a good comparison to the toilet flush (where the variables are toilet shape/flow, gravity, water)

I recall a statistical experiment from school in which 10 dimes were tossed 100 times, and the results (how many heads, how many tails) were charted on a graph. Well before the 100 tosses were complete, the bell shaped curve began to form. Subsequent tosses only made the same results into a larger bell.

Sinks are clearly influenced by all sorts of shapes and configurations... but toilets are pretty generic. My toilet drains in a counter clockwise direction when flushed. Every time. Brand is Kohler. (different brands may have different shapes which could influence the flow)

humor me. Which direction does your toilet drain, and what brand is it?

I've done the test, several times. The direction of flow is DOWN.

Pat you have way toooooo much time on their hands.

Later,

I will bite, Patt, I have always thought that they went clockwise here, but this morning i noticed it to be counter-clockwise, for both of our bathrooms.

That was with nothing in them, i will report back the result with, well let's say obstructions!

Any reports here would not be enough of a sample to be statistaclly significant.

And this has actually been done before, including thousands if not hundreds of thousands of reports.

That particular survey only proved what I originally stated.

The water can rotate in either direction and the statistical results indicate the situation to be more one of random chance than any other phenomenon.

As for mentioning the strength of a particular force that might or might not be affecting the water circulation direction, well, water is a rather dense chunk of matter and it would take quite a lot of energy to actually change its direction...

--Mac

But if the tube the water comes out of is pitched, the weight will be heavier on one side and influence the direction of flow.
Being in construction, if the water went clockwise I would want to know if the toilet was out of level with the right side lower than the left.. and vice versa.

As Pat mentioned, I also think brand (and model) would be a factor. American Standard here (2) both clockwise when viewed from above. I'll have to get out the level later.

After a weekend of family reunion type meals there can be some rather powerful forces involved there Macster!

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But if the tube the water comes out of is pitched, the weight will be heavier on one side and influence the direction of flow.
Being in construction, if the water went clockwise I would want to know if the toilet was out of level with the right side lower than the left.. and vice versa.

As Pat mentioned, I also think brand (and model) would be a factor. American Standard here (2) both clockwise when viewed from above. I'll have to get out the level later.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. The symmetry of toilets is such that I think there would be very little vaning effect from the surface, and even minimal from the water flowing into the bowl.

However, two things I'd expect to make a notable difference are :

1) the level of the toilet (If it aint level, then the water exits at some angle)
Thanks Bob, for pointing that out. That's an easy one to check.

2) and the random direction the plumber chose to orient the trap. Water molecules are cohesive, so if the water takes a turn anywhere in the process of exiting the premises, the molecular cohesion could exert an influence on everything coming behind it.

Now I'm tempted to tear out the ceiling under the bathrooms to see if the orientation of the trap coincides with the rotation of the water in that toilet.

(apparently I *DO* have too much time on my hands... but hey, its Saturday)

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I've done the test, several times. The direction of flow is DOWN.

heh heh... OK, you win the award for most unexpected but most appropriate reply.

Is this from that famous book "I Have WAY Too Much Time On My Hands"?

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Any reports here would not be enough of a sample to be statistaclly significant.

And this has actually been done before, including thousands if not hundreds of thousands of reports.

That particular survey only proved what I originally stated.

The water can rotate in either direction and the statistical results indicate the situation to be more one of random chance than any other phenomenon.

As for mentioning the strength of a particular force that might or might not be affecting the water circulation direction, well, water is a rather dense chunk of matter and it would take quite a lot of energy to actually change its direction...

--Mac

Mac,

you're preaching to the choir. I already knew that all toilets in a hemisphere don't really flush the same direction. I expect nearly everybody who's spent much time online knows, as that information gets circulated by email quite often. I reference it in a forum of friends not for the purpose of making an empirically correct statement, but because internet truisms are amusing (especially when I figure everybody else already gets the joke)

For future reference, when what I'm saying comes across as the words of a pompous know-it-all who's just wrong, you can bet its spoken with tongue planted firmly in cheek. It's my nature to kick goofy ideas around for fun.

I'm just curious to hear how the evidence manifests in a random cross section of toilets around the world. I know it doesn't meet the requirements of a statistically valid test. I just want to see how the results shake down.

I don't know about your toilet, but here the water is already started to cascade down the side of the toilet in the direction it will spin before it fills enough to let go, so I doubt the exit path comes in to play.. I'm sticking with manufacturer/model and whether the bowl/tank are level as my hunches.

I have a policy of never, ever looking.

Probably depends on whether your toilet is right handed or left handed!

Or bi-flushual.....

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I have a policy of never, ever looking.

I'll bet whoever cleans the floor around your toilet really hates that job

OK, my wife thinks I'm nuts as I go to each bathroom and waste water watching what happens with each flush.

Best ones for comparison are two toilets on opposite sides of a partition. One flushes in a clockwise direction, the other in a counter clockwise direction.

Neither toilet is level... but they are both slanted in the same direction, which doesn't account for the water exiting in opposite directions.

The ceiling under the bathrooms is the suspended type with removable panels. I opened 'er up to check out the pipes.

A main line comes between them, and an angled leg shoots off to each toilet (opposite directions from the trunk)

The water exits both toilets in the direction that is heading toward the angled drain pipe's opening.

However

the water that gets squirted into the bowl *IS* coming in at an angle, and in both cases the water swirls in that direction.

So in my mind the conclusion is crystal clear.

Spooks.

What else could it be?

Counter-clockwise here when "free" enough to drain properly. That plunger has been a lifesaver!

Trax

Wow, PG products must be working pretty well for everyone these days. Counter-clock-wise here. But possible variable: we have a lot of iron in our water.

Terry