Thanks! What does "phonics" mean?

Thanks Mac. Those are some very good points you made. It`s not really that I don`t want to sing, I like it. But as a pro guitarist I can tell the difference between "ok" and a real pro. Maybe I`m a perfectionist...

So I think, I`ll go for the vocal lessons. But it`s good to hear, that there is something there already, because I really wasn`t sure.

Thanks,
Sandra

Thanks Bob, for your honest words.

I know a very succesful Gpysy Band here in Austria. They mix Gypsy music with traditional Viennese music. For about half their songs they have a famous singer on the CD. It became quite succesful. Now, here`s the problem: Every promoter /club owner wants them with the original singer. Now they can only play when the singer`s got time too. They kinda made themself dependant from him.

My CD is due in Autumn, I`ll try to get some vocal lessons before!

Sandra

Sandra, I think you have the ability to sing, the notes are there. Obviously there are a few pitch problems, and mostly flat not sharp. But many are right. As said the timing is good, and you already know proper phrasing. Some good coaching and hard work it should shape up. Dive in, and sing a lot, work at it as you did with the guitar.

Don't worry too much, just do it. I waited. Then it's sort of too late. Everyone says 'blues'. Well, I know about 10 or so actual blues songs, and it was never my preference.

I'm not much of a coach or critic, but I'll give a listen later. For now my grandson, who will be 3, and my wife who'll be a lot older than that are wearing googles he found, elastic bands on the wrist, (must be id?), and dancing to red hot chili peppers with pink on deck. Not my thing either but he's a dancing fool!

Look, the thing is, will others listen?

BTW,the local universities music programs have tons of first year people who have the voice, some training, and want to do this kind of thing. I'm mentoring keyboard players, for free, because I have gear, a studio, and want to.

I'm officially too old to or lack the desire to go out and hear new acts. I'm in bed by 10 p.m., no matter who's house I'm in...

I think adding a few vocal songs to your set (one out of 4 or 5 songs) would make the set more interesting (more variety) for the audience. I say take the lessons and be the best you can be.

Sandra...go for it ! Put in the time with the coach. You make a great point about 'guest artists'...then the hiring venue want's that guy or gal and you're in a corner. Do it yourself. You've got a great head-start. A few pitch issues, but most singers do, so just do it... assuming you have the desire and committment to develop and get better.

I'd like to hear this same tune down a whole step maybe. Times in the tune when you're pushing your range. Go lower keys until you gain a bit more upper range ?

Sandra,

As stated by many above you are already ahead of the curve, especially with phrasing, which in my humble opinion, other than staying on key is the most important part of any vocal. Heck phrasing is also, again in my ears anyway, is what separates many musicians from the pack even with instrumentals. With this said my first choice would be for you to go for it and with the help of your vocal coach do the vocals 100% yourself. Second choice, and only if you are not yet comfortable carrying the vocals yourself, would be to use another singer but also include your own vocals even if in some minor way as a duet or in a background role for starters.

But the bottom line is that you and only you can make that decision.

Break A Leg!

Sandra, I'm sorry but I have to agree with Bob. Your singing (on this recording) is not up to your (high) playing standard. In my opinion you have two options:

1: Hire a singer. You hire other musicians and a singer is nothing more or less than that. It does not mean you are no longer the bandleader (think Moonlight Shadow by Mike Oldfield) You want (and need) this level of vocals Vaya Con Dios - Johnny

2: Learn to sing yourself. Find a good vocal coach and work hard. You know the drill...

Yes, your singing is good enough for karaoke-bars and the odd gig for friends with a hobby band. It is not that bad. But please don't do this right now at your normal gigs. It will bring the high quality of your gigs and your music down.

I hope you know I don't write this to bring you down.

Sandra, I also say go for it! You are one fantastic guitarist and now you are also a very good singer. As suggested you could go to a vocal instructor to take you over the top, not that it is all that far for you! That is the route I would go if I have a voice like yours. The other option is to use pitch correction, as noted your were a little pitchy, but be it far from someone like me with no vocal chords what so ever to criticize. Personally with a voice like yours I would take Mac’s advice and get a good vocal instructor.

I also agree with Jazzmandan as I didn’t hear a foreign, at least foreign to me , accent!

Ps, now I’m even a bigger fan of yours!

Hi, Sandra:

I would like to offer a little perspective, and perhaps soften the blows you have just received...

I like your voice, there's a lot of promise there, but I would agree, maybe not for a CD right now.

BUT... it really depends upon your time horizon, that is, how soon you want to record. If you have some lead time, weeks or months, then, by all means, sing as much as you can at your gigs, in the shower, etc., and I will bet that with practice and increased confidence, you will be CD-ready in a few weeks or months.

Good, luck, and do not give up... (I have been listening a lot to Eliane Elias, who, IMO, is not a natural singer, yet, she is very effective.)

Besides, since when do Gypsies required trained voices?

Sandra,

I want to weigh in by saying that I really like your voice! The melody to your song was not easy for a vocalist... it had a lot of steps that require a precise landing, and you handled them very well.

In my opinion vocals don't have to be perfect if they are presented with enough style to make them interesting and musical. You have a very styistic approach to singing, and for me it works. You already sound better than most of the live acts I've heard performing locally.

As already mentioned, there is a different standard for singing live and singing on a CD. I think you have a GREAT live voice... but it does err on the side of style rather than pitch perfection. Once you commit the song to a permanent record, there's always the chance that you'll look back later and wish it had been perfect.

There are many possibilities, but considering the following facts:
1) you ARE a perfectionist...
2) you DO plan to take lessons...
3) you will be singing in live performances as well...

my recommendation is to go ahead and sing on your CD, then use Melodyne to clean up any aspect of the performance that does not meet your high professional standard. As you take voice lessons, you'll grow into the CD performance. When you perform live for people who have heard the CD, they will recognize that you are the same person who sang on the CD.

Good luck in your project! You are a very talented person, and I have great respect for your various abilities!

Hi, Sandra - First of all, I really enjoyed that. What I heard in your voice was nervousness because I don't think you believe you can do it yet. As was said, practice, practice, practice. You'll get more comfortable with it and it will flow more naturally.

But for me, I'd buy your CD.

I hear 2 things. One is that you don't believe you can sing. I sensed that you were kind of holding back. Belt it out to the back row and just let it rip.

Back when I played regularly I was the 2nd singer in my band. Since I took 18 years off, I lost it. I don't sing anywhere like I used to. But you know what? Critics be damned. It took me a long time to decide where I stood about it, and it took many people to tell me this, but this is my voice, I don't get to exchange it for another one, and damn it, I am going to sing. End of discussion.

Just be careful to pick a key that fits your range, continue to work with your coach to expand your range and work on your breathing.

I hear the native ability and the talent in there. Stay at it.

PS I wonder if you would do something for us. Would you sing something in your native language and post it? I wonder if maybe singing in English is making your brain work in too many directions at once. Just a thought.

Hi Sandra,

I enjoyed the track. My observation is that as the track progressed you were running short of breath which contributed to your slight pitch problems

You may need to work on building up your wind, especially on a song of that type.

I wish you well.

Don S.

Sandra,

Be encouraged...please ! You are MASTER CLASS guitarist...period. But that does not mean that your vocals need to match that ability. You say you are doing 2,3 vocal tunes for the CD, right ? So these tracks are 'incidental' to the project. Not meaning to demean or lessen their value, but the emphasis on the project is the instrumental aspect, correct ?

I've heard tons of CD's by great instrumentalists that are 'just OK' vocalists (1 or 2 vocal tracks per CD)...SO WHAT ? As long as it's a heartfelt performance (the hardest part I think) people will relate.. DO IT !

Be encouraged ! Practice... and let us hear the final results. I'm in for the CD purchase !

Sandra,

I enjoyed listening to you do this song, a great song that fits your style. Because I place a high value on vocal quality I was prepared to be quite critical if necessary. However, I found your vocal quality to be very pleasant, and a good match with your song material. Your voice is clear, on pitch, has interesting rhythmic variance in different parts of the song, and keeps the listener interested. I'm sure that with additional training you could be even better, but you are already a long ways towards your goal. If, according to your coach, singing will bring you more success, then I am quite sure you will find that success. You are certainly already very accomplished on your instrument.

Best of luck,
Terry

Sandra,

One thing I left out in my 1st reply. . . I'd bet your guitar playing did not start at the level at which you are currently playing, so keep in mind you have just started the singing journey. You will get better with each practice session and performance as you are a too good musician for that not to happen and that will without a doubt in my mind, translate to stronger vocals.

Edited portion: Remember Herb Alpert, strong trumpet player? I also remember that while he was never know for his voice his heartfelt rendetion of This Guys IN Love With You was a big and memorable hit.

Later,

Hi Sandra,

Since your project isn't until autumn. Find a "professional vocal coach" with references to work with you. A pro vocal coach NOT a "voice teacher". A real pro vocal coach will tailor your sessions to fix problems and refine your own singing style as opposed to just learning breathing, scales, etc. The cost will be worth it as the real pro vocal coach will help you be the best you personally can be in the least amount of time. You'll do the work and approach singing with the same professional mindset as you do with perfecting your guitar chops - which I believe from what you said is what you want to do.

Once you add a vocal to a song - whether the singer is you or somebody else - that vocal now carries that song. The majority of people listening will focus on the vocal.

I disagree with some here who say your vocal songs can be somehow expendable or lesser just because you are foremost an instrumentalist. This is a singles oriented world now. There are no designated album cuts any more. Once you step up to the mic people have expectations. You're going to take heat for doing it from all the critics regardless. You don't have to be the reigning Ms Golden pipes but you can be the best singer Sandra can be with your own confident style.

Ask around and find yourself a real pro vocal coach who's working or has worked with other budding artists who have label deals and go from there.

All the best,

Josie

Hi Sandra,
For someone who doesn't sing that was pretty good. I agree with Mitch, pick your key carefully for your voice. This one was a shade high, although with coaching you will get those high notes without straining. You guitar playing indicates that you are disciplined and strive for perfection. I don't think you need to go the perfection route on vocals. Vocals are for expressing emotion, and unfortunately tend to tire quickly. When playing a string instrument, breathing is not of paramount importance, when singing it is. Do your own singing, you are plenty good enough for that, and dont worry about the CD. The studio is full of gimics that even top singers rely on. But be careful of being too perfect, gypsy swing, like blues, is not about perfection but emotion. For an example of someone who can’t sing listen to Paolo Conte. He can fill concert halls with his gravel voice, and his CDs are pretty good too. In a world where singers tend to sound the same, a bit of gravel (Tom Waites) and especially emotion (Joe Cocker) and uniqueness (Amy Winehouse) are what brings success. It’s not the voice that determines success, it’s the singer. Go for it.

Hi Sandra.

I don't think you've you've got anything to worry about.

Singing is largely about confidence and, hopefully, the encouragement you've got from all these comments will help to provide that. Don't be scared of those high notes, pile on even more expression and you'll have a great recording.

ROG.

Sandra,

I agree with many of the posts above (Mac, Mitch,..)

A couple of points to bear in mind.
- this is a particularly challenging tune to sing, so it's perhaps unfair of us to assess you on it
- if you plan to sing live you would not want the singing to distract you in any way from your primary skill as a guitar player.

Good luck!!

Marc

Hi Sandra,

I think you will do OK once you have sorted out the glitches in your voice.
Many others have given advice to you.
I would offer a practical advice (it worked for me - I think),
If you are using headphones when you are singing take one side of the headphones off your ear.
You may be surprised to hear the difference that can make.

Just go for it. What have you got to lose.

Best regards
George

Thank you folks for all your good advice and I totally appreciate your honest replies!

As an excuse (LOL) I have to say though, this was the first and only vocal take on that recording. I haven`t yet practised the song either. And I also didn`t have it run through some pitch correction thingie (as you can hear;-))
I did this on purpose, because this is the level I would perform live (right now), so I wanted to know if there`s potential to keep going or if it`s a complete fail.
But since I`ve got a couple of months till the recordings and first live gigs with that set, I think I can handle it.

I totally agree with Mike and some others that say my singing doesn`t meet my high level of guitar playing. But I think in a couple of months I will be able to sing good enough for the purpose intended.

Sandra

Right on, Sandra.

Find a good vocal coach. He/she can help you learn to use and train your vocal instrument. You might want to contact Corinne Morini. She is a vocal coach in Vienna, using the EVTS method. EVTS is an innovative system for developing masterful control of the human voice.

I don't know Corinne Morini, I found her when I did a search on the EVTS international site for an EVTS instructors in/near Vienna.

Make sure you feel comfortable with your vocal coach. This will make the training much more beneficial. Go for it!

I will be looking forward to listen to your upcoming album.

I like your voice as is, Google Vocal Fry and maybe try that if you want to add more to what you already have!

Just stop and think about how many "singers" can't sing at all... start with Mick Jagger. Move to Rod Stewart. God, Stewart's voice is like nails on a blackboard. That screaming quality.... Whole bunch of people got famous because of the band behind them without being able to sing. That first take was better than a lot of people I hear right now.

You have ZERO to worry about. As you practice and improve from a very good starting point, it'll all work out.

I like to think I can tell a capable vocalist in the first couple of notes they sing. It is the same quality element that every gutarist searches for, I am sure you have also. It is Tone! Hard to define but you know it when you hear it. You either have it or you have to work a long time to get it. In your case I heard a hint of it. Thats a good thing - it can develope and grow with practice and instruction.

The thing I see here in these reviews "reading between the lines" is folks trying to tell you that to be a good vocalist you have to love to sing. If you force it or fake it, it won't work. Good luck.

No Steve, that's "Phenics"

Sandra
As others have commented, you have a good voice that just needs some fine tuning.

The first part of the process is learning the correct physical techniques to smooth out any rough spots and a vocal coach may be the best and quickest way to get that done.
There may also be useful articles and videos on the Internet.

The second part of the process is mental, building your performance confidence so that your apprehension doesn’t cause you to tense up your vocal chords and restrict your range.

One technique to try is to start each vocal session by saying to yourself :
“OK let’s have some fun with this song.

“Let’s really get into the feel of it regardless of whether it’s “Perfect” or not”,
Some times perfection can also be very boring to listen to.

“I am now going to act and sing like the singer I want to be (visualize your favorite singer) performing in a place I’ve always dreamed off.”

Really believe in the song and want to project that feeling out to the audience with your singing.
Picture yourself singing like your favorite singer on stage, with all the emotive gestures.

Smile! Play with the song, trying different presentations.
It’s all part of the “fun factor”.
It loosens you up so your technical training can shine through.

That’s one of the reasons, I believe, we all sound so good in the shower.
All that apprehension is washed away, leaving us to enjoy the process of singing.

The great singers, regardless of their voices are also great entertainers. Their voice is only part of the package.
Surprisingly, many have said that they are not immune to stage fright but they have learned to overcome it and go out there and give a great show.
The mental aspect is just as, if not more than important than their vocal ability.

Always keep in mind that unless you are recording a live club performance for your CD, you have as many takes as it takes to get it right in the studio.
And you have lots of tools to tweak them.
The best part of any take can be cut and added to another best part until you get the result you or your producer wants so that helps take some of the pressure off.

Hope you find some of this useful and look forward to hearing your CD.
Carkins