I'm playing around a little more with MIDI guitar. I own a Roland GI-20, and I like to use soft synths on my laptop.

I'm not married to the GI-20 - but I am loving the pallette of sounds the softsynth gives.

What controller gear would you recommend to be easiest to use during live performance to change MIDI synth sounds across different soft synths ?

Could I actually set up RB to perform this function with some careful planning ? If so - how ?

Thanks in advance, I really love this community.

Joe, I don't have an answer for you, but I wanted to say that you're mighty brave for wanting to try a MIDI/soft synth lashup on stage. I say this with no irony whatsoever. I don't know that I'd have the confidence to take Windows on a live gig. I do look forward to actual responses to your question.

For the record, I have a GK-3 equipped Strat copy that I use to drive a Roland VG-88 V-Guitar, which is NOT a true MIDI setup. I also have the older Roland GI-10 interface, which I have never connected, and a Roland JV-1010 synth module which I will use when I do. (Did I mention that I use Roland gear?)

Richard

Joe,

I'm not sure I understand your question... are you mostly asking if it is possible to use MIDI continuous controllers to automate aspects of a MIDI guitar performance (Such as changing patches, volume, adding effects in realtime etc?)

MIDI PROTOCOL is capable of all that, but not all DEVICES are fully MIDI accessible. For example your Roland GI-20 is just an interface.. it doesn't have sounds or effects, so there's very little you can control on it with CC. It DOES have 50 storable presets (you can have different setting for string sensitivity etc... but none of them are pre-programmed. Unless you configure each preset you have 50 settings that are all the same.)

I'm not sure if sending a patch change command to the GI-20 will change patches in the active soft synth or just change presets... but there is surely a way to do both. Most good soft synths accept CC control to some extent.

Roland's guitar synths are totally MIDI controllable. You can embed CC commands in piano roll to do anything on that device in realtime that you could do by turning a knob.

If you have been experimenting with MIDI control of the Voiceworks, it works exactly the same way on other MIDI devices.

If that didn't answer any of your questions, ask again until I get it right.

There are always lots of guitar synths for sale on eBay, and some very good deals compared to what these things cost new. And IMO, the older (inexpensive) models don't sound much different than the newer (expensive) models.. and in most cases the controls are more understandable on the old ones.

"are you mostly asking if it is possible to use MIDI continuous controllers to automate aspects of a MIDI guitar performance (Such as changing patches, volume, adding effects in realtime etc?"

Yes Pat, I want to be able to switch between my MIDI soft synth sounds that the ease of a guitar multi-effects processor offers in changing patches during live performance. Isn't that what any MIDI guitar player would want to do ? I realize a dedicated hardware MIDI controller would probably have such built in, but the best sounds I have are in my soft synth library.

you'll have to look at the documentation for each of the soft synths to see what is supported. If there's a table in the docs somewhere about Continuous controllers then you can do it with that soft synth.

To elaborate on Pat’s response if your soft synth will respond to program patch changes on the fly then yes it can be done. This can be easily tested by adding program changes to a track that utilizes that soft synth in your DAW. Be aware that some may cause a loud click when changing patches.

You can also add MIDI CC messages on the fly to the CC messages that a soft synth will respond. As Pat has said you will have to check each soft synths MIDI implantation chart.

When you have that data you then need to find out what your current MIDI controller will send. My Casio MG510 will send patch changes only. For all other data and maybe including patch changes depending on what you have you will need a programmable MIDI controller foot pedal, much like this
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx
Google MIDI foot controllers and you will find a number of them.

I have an old ART X-15 MIDI controller that I have used : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQlua_6SXOI

They are out of production but you may find one on e-bay.

Good luck

PS – About 20 years ago or so I was using the Casio MG-510 Strat/Midi controller on stage with three tone generators. I also have a keyboardist with three hard synths in the band. We used to blow peoples minds with sounds.

"What controller gear would you recommend to be easiest to use during live performance to change MIDI synth sounds across different soft synths ?"

Wish I could answer you more directly...I wouldn't think that would be a problem if your guitar synth is a complete midi controller...

Since I bought a Roland GM-70 controller box (no sounds-just a "completely wild do-everything midi control signals sender unit"...it worked by inserting a special multi-pin (16?)cable connection between itself and my Roland GR303
guitar. Pat Metheny used this Roland setup initially, but eventually went and had his guitar set up to transmit into a fairlight synth...

Year's later he's controlling his own dam "orchestra synth" with it.
I've never played into softsynths...I started with the Roland GR-300 and then began buying all these harware synths and going from the GR-300 into the GM-70 with the special 16 pin guitar cable, then out of the GM-70 controller box into whatever keyboard or sound module synth I happened to "fancy" at the moment...

Today, I got connected up to my two Korg M3r/s...and my motif-rack...

Then for creme de la creme, I hooked up the midi guitar into my Roland XV-5080 sample/playback sound module. If you could ever get hold of one of these, it would take you through any gig possible.

GDad,

I believe that is the 13-pin so-called MIDI cable. It actually serves as the link between bits of Roland's GK-based gear and has nothing to do with MIDI. For those interested in the historical aspect, it used to be an Atari video cable.

Richard

All of your advice is well taken - and thanks for sharing it. It's interesting to me that the guitar effects processors are so programmable, but doing the same with MIDI soft synths requires many hours of research and tinkering - and then the possibility of "No sound - it's not working the way I thought it would"....which always happens when you're playing for a friend or an auidence.

Most likely - the best answer is an integrated hardware solution designed exactly for such. I'm thinking if I don't want setup headaches, I should probably limit my soft-synth via midi guitar to my studio.

...but I will research your suggestions a little more deeply first...thanks again for sharing

Thanks "Wizzard"for your feedback on that GM-70...
It's always been surprising to me the lack of false/ghost notes with that unit. Of course you have to keep a neat, clean, light touch on the strings, but all in all, most synth sounds from hardware modules and keyboard synths/samplers are very acceptable. In fact, most of the multi-layered-multi-voices and even arpegiators etc., are faithfuly reproduced...epecially coming from products like Yamaha Motifs, and CS6X... Korg M1 and M3rs, and even the Krazy Korg Karma with its "plugin Synth Boards.
As I mentioned, the Roland XV-5080 is magnificent as a sound module with clean/clear studio and stage transmission.
Well, everything is relevant to whatever situation is going on...studio or live.
I always enjoyed listening to guitarists/singers who had one or more hardware synths...especially keyboards...that they integrated into their "sets".

Gdaddy, you have some relatively new equipment when compared to my Yamaha TX81Z, Kawai K1m, and Roland’s JV880 and String Ensemble M-SE1!

The nice thing about hard synths is that OS updates do not make it obsolete!

Software synths are enticing, likely because we can collect so many for free or near free.

My experience, though, has been to move back to HARDWARE MIDI, especially for live performance.

Just too many things to keep track of when attempting to use PC plus various softwares, plus the Controller factors asked about in this thread IMO.

In my world, it is difficult enough for the keyboardist to keep track of the various Patches, Effects, changes, CCs, etc. and still have enough left over inside to actually PLAY THE MUSIC.

When gigging on guitar, I found that things get out of hand really quickly far too much of the time.

Would work out a lot better if the user of softwares, PC-driven synths, etc. had a GUITAR TECHNICIAN at every gig, whose only job would be to set up and run the synths, etc. as is done for the big concert guitarists, leaving them free to just play, the technician bringing up Patches, Effects, etc. as needed. But we can't have that in the local venues we are likely to be playing.

The Hardware MIDI synths still demand the ability to program them, store various "sets" - and recall them instantly onstage - but I find them to be well worth the investment.

One way to get both the synth AND the controller in one unit is for the aspiring MIDI guitarist to consider investing in a MIDI keyboard that has both. A 61 key job with MIDI Input, you could control any and all voices from your MIDI guitar setup but the advantages in live performance yields a much simpler set of commands and such to keep track of. CASIO makes some really great sounding 61 key boards at low pricepoints these days. And some of them even have a Mic or Line Audio input which can allow you to patch the standard magnetic pups through the DSP effects, as well.

My Roland GK pup, via the aging Roland Guitar synth, used only to convert the pup to MIDI, sounds awesome when patched into my shirt pocket sized Ketron SD2 MIDI synth, sold on this website. Responds to the foot buttons on the Roland Synth because it is GM compat, also works a treat for MIDI sounds with BiaB and Realband as well. Setup is a breeze and -- IT ALWAYS WORKS.


--Mac

Aleck Rand, village techno-moron here with greetings to all.

As an aside, I'll mention that in the '80's I owned one of the first MIDI guitars ever made: A Charvel, with a box and pedal made in Germany. That's about all I can remember besides its absolute unplayability: false notes, hiccups, burps, every so often an accurate note. I stuck it in the closet forever.

What surprises me is how many of you have lots of experience with later generation devices that, so I understand, have eliminated most of the problems I used to have.

Very long aside. I'll try to state my question in the plainest language I can. How can you get RealBand to play the sounds built in to an external hardware synth and have these sounds incorporated into an RB audio track? My question implies that recording with an amp and a mike is the last resort. Perhaps what I'm asking for is impossible. Nevertheless, I thought I might ask all you tech WIZZARDS.

Aleck

Aleck, I don't Mic MIDI synths, I use the Line Inputs of my sound device to record the synth's performance out of the synth's Audio Outputs from beginning to end onto a new Audio Track. When done with that, I have to remember to MUTE the MIDi synth track so it does not double with the recorded Audio Track of the same.


--Mac

Mac - I understand your answer - but the devil is in the details. My guess is that Aleck would find it very challenging to find the particular software programs and configuration settings to make this happen from end to end (I'm guessing he's using a windows machine).

But I could be mistaken. People that pretty much use the single interface offered by their program, that don't often go into the sound card and audio device settings, I'm referring to these types that would find it difficult. And of course it changes depending on your software/hardware - making it impossible to map out at the click-by-click level.

If a pilot can't find level flight simply because said pilot does not know how to use the controls, that pilot should find out how to use the controls...

Anything else doesn't make much sense and is likely to prove to be detrimental to the safety and well being of said pilot.


--Mac

...point well-taken. Thank goodness that playing with music and computers is far more forgiving than flying a plane.

Well - thanks for your advice - shopping on craigslist and ebay for the many equipment experiences you guys have shared.

On that topic - I've come across an NI "Kore 2" controller that has some built in sounds, and they're going used for < $100.

Has anyone used this device - and how much supporting equipment do you need to use it, besides a guitar-to-midi converter - can it go straight into the amp or mixing board ?

Finally - I saw the post on the SampleTank 2.5 6 gb package for $40. Is this a good companion softsynth for live performance soundwise - or are there better out there worth spending a few extra dollars on ?

Thanks again for all your advice

Joe, I have the Kore Player, that is the software version of Kore. Yes you can go straight into an amp or mixing board. The thing to be aware of is that NI stopped producing and supporting the Kore series a couple of years ago.

SampleTank 2.5 is a good starting place if you do not have any other sound sources. It has enough sounds to get you through just about any genre of music and will be good enough for gigs. However the sounds are dated by today’s standards BUT for that price it may be worth wild for you,

Personally my go to sound source is Kontakt. It is expensive at $400 but it is worth it IMO. It comes with a complete sound package like SampleTank so to start with you will need nothing else. However there are many third party as well as NI itself that produce additional sounds that you can purchase.

Also don’t forget to look at some of the free VSTis. Some are really good. Just beware that some free ones may not work on your system.

I hope this helps.