An English teacher is remarking to her class how curious it is that a double negative means a positive (e.g., his trumpet playing is not without merit) whereas there is nothing like a double positive that means a negative.

From the back of the room, a student yells out something, the entire class cracks up, and the teacher turns red.

What did the student say?

Aleck

"Yeah. Right"

Actually most languages use double negatives to good purpose. They are useful for emphasis, such as when you want to let your kids know that you really, really, really are not going to get them all new iphones 5. This usefulness is reflected in the instinctive way that so many of us use double negatives without thinking, on occasion.

English grammar texts copied their insistence against double negatives from Latin grammar.

Hey Flatfoot - very good!! Actually, what the kid yelled was "Yeah, yeah ..." But your answer is fine. I'll need to come up with something trickier for the likes of you.

Aleck

Aleck,

Just to give you a bit of forewarning, Flatfoot is an English teacher

Flatfoot also mentions how some languages use what we might describe as 'double negatives' to reinforce the degree of negativity. I seem to recall someone saying that Russian does this, for example. While English usually frowns on double negatives as poor language use, we still have this to a very limited degree with the 'nor' conjunction.

Then, too, there are those phrases that incorporate a prefix with negative connotations alongside negative words. For example, the sentence "Mr Jones was not incompetent" (taken from the Wikepedia article on double negatives found here). That sentence could also be expanded to include even more negatives: such as, "Mr Jones was not incompetent nor inconsiderate" ... etc.

Noel

.
>>>.. "Mr Jones was not incompetent" (taken from the Wikepedia article on double negatives found here)....>>>>

...but these examples prove the so-called 'rule.' The double negative is not intended to emphasize negativity. The two negatives do indeed add up to a positive: 'Mr Jones is competent.'

The English language is a living language.

Latin would be a good example of a dead language.

A dead language is one in which there is no current population using said language on a daily basis and so that language is considered to be impervious to the kind of changes that culture, society, technology and changing times can bring to a language that is still in use.

This is why the scientific and legal fields long ago decided to use Latin as the language for codified laws, theories, discoveries and basic nomenclature.

The "double negative" rule as applied to the English language, which is spoken currently in quite a few different countries and regions, each having developed their own curious usage, definitions and rules, is very likely outdated and is a remnant due to changing times and generations.

The double negative usage also may be quite differently used today depending upon which English speaking nation, which country, culture, etc. being discussed.


--Mac

The double negative is a common feature of Afrikaans

Hi, guys !

Latin is anything but a dead language !
Over here in Finland our YLE (The National Broadcasting Company)
regularly comes up with news in latin !:) Here are some excerpts:


http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/

Here you can hear the news:

http://app.box.com/s/q8bmnwxs55hgkycs2xwa

Cheers
Dani

A language is considered to be "dead" when there is no longer any nation or large cultural group using that language in everyday communications.


--Mac

.
>>>..Over here in Finland our YLE (The National Broadcasting Company)regularly comes up with news in latin !:) ...>>>

Why would they do that? Do y'all Finns speak or study Latin as a regular thing? Who is the Latin news intended for?

Hi, Guys !

We are a weird people yes (chuckle) !
Latin is quite pop here and the radio
estimates there are more than 10.000 people
listening to the news !:))

It is quite common to read latin in school
over here ! ....If you ask why.....Latin is
integrated in most european languages and
it is almost mandatory for those who study
medicine......so, why not ?

...so much for a dead language (lol) !!


Cheers
Dani

I studied Latin starting in the 6th grade.

"Classical Latin" they called it, with a different pronounciation ruleset, but Latin nonetheless.

By the 12th grade, was also having to study the Greek.

Knowing the basics of those two languages makes it much easier to understand English words, whose prefixes and suffixes are often based on the Latin or the Greek.

It also is a huge help in knowing how to spell various English words, as well as their roots in definitions, etc.

Look, it is not Mac who coined the term, "dead language" to describe the Latin, this was done by scholars who lived long before I was even a gleam in me wee father's eye, both the Legal and the Scientific communities embraced the Latin for their definitions and terms for that stated reason.

You have a radio show where Latin is used, but that does not equate to the same given situation, for the country you live in does not use Latin as its core language in every day speaking.


--Mac

Hi, Mac !

I won´t argue on this topic, just wanted to
bring you some information that you could
not possibly have known ! I also wanted to
bring forward my opinion that latin in fact
is very alive today - it has to be, as they have to
invent new words to be able to follow
their time ! Mac, dear friend, I never said you
coined the expression that latin is a dead
language, but I think I surprised everyone
with my intervention (Chuckle) !!:))

I also read latin in school for three years
if I do remember right (I also read ancient greek or koine
as it is called) and I must honestly say that my
knowledge of latin has been most useful in
learning other european languages. F.i. I am presently
studying spanish ! An example: If I know that nature
is natura in latin, I immediately know it is feminine also
in german Die Natur or in spanish La Naturalesa !!

Cheers
Dani

My wife got a 100% on her final high school Latin regents exam. NY state was confused (what else is new) as no one had ever gotten a 100% before! There were only places for 2 digits!

She used to be fluent in Latin, German and English but now a few years later (ha-ha) she is fluent in English only. I am fluent in no language so I guess it is true that opposites attract.

Please explain how you could come to the conclusion that this piece of information, which is basically available in the public domain, is information that I "could not possibly have known".


--Mac

My guitar playing is not bad, and it is not without originality. But, the part that is not bad is unoriginal, and the part that is not without originality is bad.

Huh?

Aleck

Hello my dear Mac !

I couldn´t ! I just assumed
that the possibility of you
being aware of the high interest
in latin over in a godforgiven place
like my country was quite small ! If you
knew, you would not have used
the term dead language !:) (LOL)

Cheers
Dani

Again: The usage of Latin in one radio show is NOT the equivalent of having a population that uses Latin in everyday speech and communications.

"Latin is a dead language. No one speaks Latin as his native language, and this has been the case for more than a millennium." --Terrence Moore

There has, however, been a renewed interest in the teaching of Latin in some of the schools here in the US. This is in direct consequence of having raised a generation of lawyers, scientists and academia without henefit of knowing those all-important terms, which are still used in jurisprudence and science terminologies.

Sed nihil ad infinitum vivit.


--Mac

Based on Dani's later reply, I believe that here we have a misunderstanding simply due to the placement of the word 'not' - an easy mistake for someone who possibly does not speak or write English as a first language. Simply move the word 'not' from it's position in the quote above, to following the word 'possibly' and it appears to me that was Dani's intention.

For example only:

I bring this up simply because I find this thread to be fascinating as a person who speaks English as a first language, German as a 2nd language, Swedish as a 3rd, and Spanish as a very distant 4th language. The simple placement of a single 3-letter word in the sentence changes the feeling of the sentence from what could be considered an insult, to an honest, malice-free observation.

German is the only one of the latter 3 that I can actually join in conversation with some degree of fluency. Swedish, I can read and write if I have a good dictionary available, and Spanish was terminally frustrating to me to attempt to learn - though I can read and pronounce it so the listener can comprehend, please do not ask me to translate it!

Hi, Rockstar

Thank you for coming to my rescue !
You are absolutely right. My intention
was never to insult anybody, just
bring to everybody´s knowledge that
IMO latin cannot be considered a dead
language in a country where they
have regular news in latin and the
language is in daily use and developing
all the time ! sic !
I stick to my opinion respecting all
others´ as well !:))

Cheers
Dani

Dani,

Mac is correct in that the aspect of whether a language is alive or not is dependent upon development of the language, not necessarily whether there are usages of the language. Of course Latin is still used - there are still Catholic parishes across the world that offer services in Latin - and Latin is used by the scientific and academic community as a sort of nomenclature tool.

Esperanto is also used as a hobby by some linguists.

But neither Latin nor Esperanto would be considered 'live' languages in their continual development and evolution mainly because of the assertions that Mac points out - and as he also points out, this viewpoint is not his invention.

With all of that said, I tip my hat to you (a compliment) for even attempting to wade into a discussion like this in a language likely not your native language. I certainly would not be able to hold any type of meaningful conversation in any other language (and some might argue that I can't hold a meaningful conversation in English).

The Blues is full of double negatives, isn't' it? "Ain't no sunshine, when she's gone..." just sprung to mind

Oh, brother !

Quo usque tandem..... !

Cheers
Dani

.
Now I am getting interested.

If I understand correctly, Finnish is one of just a very few languages spoken in Europe that is not derived from Latin. So it would make sense for Finns to know Latin, for those occasions when y'all meet people from Italy or Spain or France. Am I right about that?

And how about Russian and Ukrainian? Does knowing Latin help at all with understanding speakers of these languages?

Hi Flatfoot,

As you say, Finnish is not a Latin based language. Moreover it is not related to any other language on earth except Hungarian. The two form an entire language class called "Finno-Ugric." This may have changed since I last looked into it years ago, but Dani might help clarify.

Aleck

PS I think you've got the greatest signature in this shop.

Hi, guys !

I cannot answer with certainty
but you are right about Finnish
not being a Latin based language.
I think we have to add Estonian
to the same group of languages.
My guess is that Latin suits
the Finns well not only from the basis
you named Flatfoot, but as Latin
is a language that is pronounced
quite "hard" like Finnish also, it
may be easier to learn and to speak.
Like Latin the Finnish language is
pronounced exactly like it is written,
whereas this is not the case with
most other languages ( I better leave
a door open by saying at least not
any I know of) ?
I do not think Russian and Ukrainian
to have much in common with Latin, but
I may be wrong !
English is the predominant language
used in conversations among other europeans
and a lot of Finns are good in German too !
Swedish, which is our other official
language, is on the decline because of the
overwhelming interest in English, which generally
is considered more important to learn !

Cheers
Dani

I was able to find an authoritative source indicating a relationship between modern Finnish and Hungarian:

Hung. k é z (hand) = Finn. k ä s i , Hung. v é r (blood) = Finn. v e r i, Hung. m é z (honey) = Finn. m e s i, Hung. s z a r v (horn) = Finn. s a r v i, Hung. v a j (butter) = Finn. v o i, Hung. e l e v e n (alive) = Finn. e l ä v ä, Hung. m e n n i (to go) = Finn. m e n n ä, Hung. r e p e d (to be torn) = Finn. r e p e ä ä etc.. which give a direct hint to a common origin. To notice similarities between Hung. f e j (head) = Finn. p ä ä, Hung. f é s z e k (nest) = Finn. p e s ä, Hung. f é l (to be afraid) = Finn. p e l k ä ä, Hung. f a k a d (to become fulfilled) = Finn. p a k a h t u a and other words is considerably more difficult, if you are not aware that the letter f in the beginning of the word regularly match the Finnish p. Or, the letter n in Finnish is often replaced by ny in Hungarian, as in Finn. n i e l l ä (swallow) = Hung. n y e l n i, Finn. m i n i ä (daughter-in-law) = Hung. m e n y. The long ő, met in the end of a Hungarian word, has previously been a diphtong öü or eü and even more previously ev. The consonant v in this is still often met in words like, e.g. Hung. k ő [the accusative case k ö v e t ] (stone) = Finn. k i v i , Hung. t ő (tree base) = Finn. t y v i and Hung. v ő (son-in-law) = Finn. v ä v y.

But, more interestingly, Dani was right about Estonian. Estonian is much more closely related to Finnish. The Finno-Ugric group contains 7 languages. Except for Finnish at one end and Hungarian at the other, the 5 remaining languages are obscure ones that you or I have probably never heard of.

Aleck

BROTHER DAVE'S DOGGEREL FOR THE DAY, 05/04/13 - #2

I hear "Ain't no sunshine when she's gone,"
And I use my mental, metaphorical pliers
To firmly grasp and extract one of the two
Contradicting double-negative modifiers.

A third negative would establish darkness,
But be even more convoluted and overlong.
The logic would work, but be hard to decipher
In "Ain't not no sunshine when she's gone."

Perhaps "Ain't no" was used to show sarcasm.
Maybe irony was intended to be brought to light.
Or, maybe his baby is only away in the daytime
And, like a vampire, she just turns up at night.

It seems to be something songwriters often do.
A good grammar campaign won't get any traction.
Either I accept the occasional double negatives
Or, as Mick says, "I can't get no satisfaction."

…D'oh!


http://www.brodavelister.com/scribble/doggerel_2013.htm#05_04_13B

.
>>>...Perhaps "Ain't no" was used to show sarcasm...>>>

I think this is a good example of how natural language works. As I posted earlier, the rule against the double negative in English is a formalism copied from Latin grammar. It is out of context in English. The expression in this song shows that the double negative comes up naturally at moments when emphasis is required to express strong emotion.

It just feels right, especially in Bill Withers' minor-key setting. I will say the same about the 'misuse' of the word "aint." I cant imagine this song any other way.

What amazes me with double negatives is the usage in questions where the questioner expects a negative answer:

Setup:
Buses from a certain station leave to Airport or Train Station. No bus stops at both destinations.

Scene 1:
A bus is approaching a bus stop. The sign on the bus reads "Airport". The question might be: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No" -- meeting the expectance of the questioner. (What would've happended if the bus driver would have answered "Yes"?)

Scene 2:
A bus is approaching a bus stop. The sign on the bus reads "Airport". The question might be: "Is this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No".

Guido

There is mroe ivnolved whti the art fo conmumication than jsut the wrod useag...

Yuo aer alboseltuy rgiht ! Ym Fernid


Ceerhs
Dnai

Still, asking two questions, one with a positive and one with a negative formulation (?) expecting the same answer is difficult to deal with.

And this doesn't have anything to do with awkward but decipheralbe spelling when reading. Asking questions to a bus driver is seldom done in written form. :-)


Guido

Ah, but the in-person conversation adds so much more commnication than just the words themselves, facial expressions, cultural inflections, hand movements, etc. - that there can be much more communicated regardless of word logic rules such as use of double-negative.

Q: How do you stop an Italian from talking?

A: Bind his hands.


--Mac

>>...: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No" -- meeting the expectance of the questioner...>>

Sometimes I like to answer questions of this type positively, just to mess with your head:

YOU: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?"

ME: "Yes, it is'nt"

("Yes" - your observation is correct)

In the West of Scotland we have a wonderful expression........"AYE.....RIGHT!".....meaning just the opposite, of course! Joe G.

.
>>>..."AYE.....RIGHT!".....meaning just the opposite, of course...>>>

In America, the expression "Yeah, right..," delivered in a sarcastic tone, means its opposite. Often the comment is made about in response to a statement delivered by a person in authority. The response is directed away from the person who made the original, triggering remark.

The boss might say "our company is a wonderful place to work." An employee in the audience might whisper to his neighbor "yeah, right" in a sarcastic tone to signify disagreement.

And the boss says, "That's a no-no..."

I studied Latin in Highschool....I never understood why, because back then, it was a dead language....and it still is. Mac is completely right.

Oddly enough, before I moved to wonderfully warm Vermont, I lived in Spain for 12 years. I had never studied Spanish, but very quickly realized how much of the Spanish language was based on Latin. Verb conjugation is almost exact.

Some of the European languages, I believe including English, are known as romance languages.....stemming from Latin....although English has been 'tainted' by many other countries languages, probably because it kept being invaded by almost everyone in western Europe....until William did his bit in 1066 and we had had enough by then. (That's a joke, just in case anyone feels differently...well, anyone French that is).

For the Finnish, give up...Latin is dead....and as a matter of interest...how many other countries speak Finnish? Maybe that's why they are choosing to speak Latin. (another joke....hell, I don't care )

Brother Dave's Doggerel For The Day, 07/27/13:

The Twenty-Seventh of July has long been known as the "National Sleepy Head Day" in Finland.
With water, they douse the last poor sap in the house still sleeping. This tradition, it seems,
Is based on a myth of The Seven Sleepers, who slept for centuries after closing their peepers.
But considering current cost of reveries lost, Finns should let dreamers Fin[n]ish their dreams.

To learn more about National Sleepy Head Day and/or The Seven Sleepers (aka Saints of Ephesus), see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sleepy_Head_Day and/or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_of_Ephesus.

.
>>...Some of the European languages, I believe including English, are known as romance language...>>>

The Romance languages are those based upon Latin: Spanish, French, Italian, Romansch, etc. English is not a Romance language. It came to England from the North German coast. Still today, most of the conversational vocabulary of English speakers is built on Germanic roots.

Latinate vocabulary came over with William the Conqueror. These words are used more in the academic, military and administrative lexicons.

Hi, guys !

I won´t be dragged into a quarrel
about latin being dead or alive !(chuckle)!
Being old and therefore presumably wise ?
I will give up in the same way
Galileo Galilei did !:))

Cheers
Dani