If you've been following the Off Topic Forum lately, you may have noticed a post "What is the Problem with Jazz?" The idea was based on a sensible suggestion by Floyd, who conjectured that there would be a lot of response. He wasn't kidding.

The outpouring of collective wisdom hasn't stopped long enough to write up a compilation of the results, but Pat Marr made a suggestion that I've turned on its head in a way: Play some old tunes in a new style.

The tune here is certainly old (1924, ASCAP) and the style will be familiar to anyone (Mac for sure) who knows the name Milt Buckner and his "locked hands" approach (taken further by George Shearing). Milt was one of the first pianists to take up the Hammond B3 and I know that he played the "heal-toe" pedals because I saw him do it one New Year's Eve at an old club in the Boston area called "Lennie's On The Turnpike," along with tenor sax wildman Illinois Jacquet and the late, great Boston drummer Alan Dawson.

Incidentally, there is a lot of confusion about B3 players and the pedals. Straightening this out would take another discussion on the Off Topic Forum. But the truth should come out once and for all.

In any event, I titled this post PLAY CHORDS! because I have Milt Buckner's piano LP by the same name. It made a big impression on me. What may be "new" is my adaptation of Milt's style to the guitar. Take that "new" with a grain of salt, because there are just too may guitar players.

The point is that it's very hard to play lots and lots of incoherent chords at 120 mph than individual notes. And chords establish a built-in melodic orientation that single notes do not. I promise that you will hear not one single individual guitar note when you listen to

BYE BYE BLACKBIRD: https://soundcloud.com/aleckrand/bye-bye-blackbird

Aleck Rand on guitar and bass, RT artist Terry Clarke on drums.

BRAVO!

Maaaan, I wish I could do that!

why, If I could in fact play like that, I'd quit my job and spend every day in front of the mirror playing jazz and admiring myself for being able to do so.

But.. I can't. Bummer too, because I like that fantasy.

;-)

(very impressive, Aleck)

Aleck,

Actually, Pat deserves the credit for the Off Topic suggestion (and WOW, what an explosive topic it has become). I simply seconded it and passed it on.

More cool stuff here. Man! that is a LOT of chords to have to play! Some GREAT transition chords in there. The bass solo is sweet (parts of it get a "wee bit" soft).

Very innovative. And quite enjoyable.

floyd

Floyd,

You're right about the bass solo - I'm groping around for direction at about the midpoint, things get a bit slopped up. You got some good ears on you man.

Certainly, the avalanche of collective wisdom based on the suggestion of Pat and yourself is something to behold. My intention is to go through the responses and try to boil it down to the critical points.

Based on the responses, there will be Possible Solutions #2,3, ... forthcoming. Thanks for helping get the whole thing started.

Aleck

Pat,

You basically fired the gun that forced the flow of ideas at the Off Topic Forum to accelerate into an avalanche. I'm planning to distill the best responses - and your contributions have been among the best - into a short form, and then add my take on it.

And thanks for your comments here. If I had an ego, my head and chest would be swelling up while I strut with my thumbs pulling on imaginary suspenders. It seems that in the pre-birth factory I missed the line that said, "Get your egos righ' chea!" but that doesn't stop me from feeling appreciation and gratitude for your kind remarks.

Aleck

Here's a bit of a take on your opening point in the big thread in the off-topic forum....

You mentioned lyricism as being necessary. I fully agree with this. Key part of the word being 'Lyric'.

Why do Jazz and other 'wordless' forms command such a little portion of overall CD sales?

It's my opinion that for many, the purpose of music is in support of lyrics. Making this statement may offend some, but it is only intended to provoke some thoughts:

Spoken word CDs probably account for even less of overall CD sales as Jazz.

There is undeniable power and magic in the proper coupling of a turn of word coupled with music that strengthens and seeds the words in the mind.

I participate in the monthly music contests over at KVRaudio.com I have placed in the prize-winner-worthy vote totals about 10 percent of my particpation, and each time it was with songs that had lyrics. Participation in those contests are from primarily instrumental composers; and to narrow it even further, they are what would be considered 'electronic' artists. One of the months that I placed was a very simple two track song - acoustic guitar and vocals. Much more 'talented' songs were submitted and didn't make into the top three. My voice is not what won the votes - I can assure you of that! But the power of the words and the simple backing of a single acoustic guitar track grabbed the attention of the voters, I believe.

I am currently listening through all of your Soundcloud tracks. In the list is "On Luna Street", where RT soloist on trumpet has some lyricism, and then large chunks of the solo are what seem to be a mere technical exercise to show how many notes can be shoved into a short amount of time eg. 2:30-2:50 in the track time indicator. So many notes, that their rhythm; the timing between notes; is significantly shorter than the typical timing of syllables of spoken word even for languages that have a fairly rapid cadence. I think this is one of the 'boundaries' of a couple things as it pertains to any music:

1. The average listener's ears 'glaze over' when presented with something so difficult to 'track'. They simply lose interest. They can't hear the lyricism. Trumpet players that are jazzers might really like that section. To me, it's the most tedious, and if I was listening to it on the radio, would have me changing stations - no matter how talented the musician was. One of my favorite trumpet solos is Freddie Hubbard in "Maiden Voyage" to give you an idea of my 'speed' when it comes to tracking with a musician in a jazz tune. It's why I like 'Naima' better than Coltrane's other stuff.

2. The average musician probably loses interest when he/she can't necessarily 'transcribe' live while listening due to speed and lack of a modal or scale structure.

3. Perhaps coupled to this is the ability to hum along - to internalize the song. Most people, even talented vocalists can't hum along with the solo section I highlighted above. I think this is why smooth jazz is the most popular of forms that get thrown into the jazz category - you can normally hum along with it.

But I suspect, it's the lack of pairing of lyrics with hook-laden melody that causes Jazz to be relatively unpopular.

I recently completed a shortened version of Pat Pattison's songwriting course online (6 weeks vs. several classes longer than that), and at least 4 weeks of the lectures were about writing and phrasing of lyrics. It's almost as if the music aspect was secondary.

Enough lunchtime rambling! But I think this observation might couple well with the inability to play chords at such rapid speed as individual note soloing like the trumpet stuff in "On Luna Street". Allow people to follow where you are taking them, unless, that is, you don't want them to follow!

-Scott

Why do most people only listen to music if it has lyrics? Well for one it's what most people are accustomed to. To quote Paul Weller of the British punk group The Jam ..'The Public Want What The Public Get'

Today I was playing some fairly far out jazz on my car stereo to a six year old boy. It was a piece called Remolino by the sax player Tony Malaby and his nonet from the album 'Novela'. (You can check out some clips if you dare at CD Universe). It has all sorts of weird transitions of style going from cartoon like soundtrack music through sultry third world rhythms to all out freedom. He was absolutely enthralled by it and wants me to give him the CD!!

If he goes on to have the usual musical education at school and is exposed as he definitely will be to mainstream pop and rock music then I doubt whether he will retain his innocent glee at the sounds he heard today. In fact he'll probably go on to hold opinions very close to your own.

Oh btw,lovely playing Aleck! Chord melody isn't usually something I've aspired to but your rendition makes me want to rectify that deficiency.!


Alan

Aleck,

Before you offer all your solutions, I want to challenge you to use your musical mastery in the context of original songs.

I know you've paid for rights to use the songs presented so far... but forum rules are different than copyright rules. Forum rules specifically limit the user showcase to ORIGINAL tunes to which you OWN ALL THE RIGHTS (not just having paid for a specific right)

We'd all like to show what we've done with covers/standards ... but out of respect for PGMusic's rules most of the people who post here post originals.

Does this also apply to reharmonized standards where the forum member has gone to great lengths to disguise the original changes and alter the melody? At what point does the rendition become a genuine contrafact of the original?

Alan

Ask George Harrison.

Hi Aleck,

you do a great job on the guitar and the bass.
I don't understand that "jazz problem" discussion.
To each his own.

Guenter

Pat and Alan,

I'll take up Pat's challenge under the reasonable condition that both of you examine and hopefully critique the following material:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/math/clark/copyright.html

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/math/clark/coversongs.html

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/math/clark/reviews

The last page is the most important. On the User's Forum I performed Lush Life and In My Solitude with the original lyrics, Estate with my own lyrics. With the exception of Big Sol, all the arrangements are my own. Three things cannot be overemphasized

• 
  [1] Who it is that sets all of PG music's policies, and that some of these policies have been necessarily left vague.
  
  [2] The extent to which I've gone to protect PG Music from copyright infringement.
  
  [3] ASCAP's New Media licensing policies are unequivocal with respect to copyright, whether you use the term "own," "rent," "lease," etc., the key point is being legally able to stream.

I look forward to hearing from you.

With kind regards,

Aleck

Hi Guenter,

The so-called "Jazz Problem" boils down to this: It has been established that there are many users of BIAB that are dedicated Jazz musicians, however, since I joined the User's Forum none of them has contributed anything. I get the impression that they don't even visit the Forum. Why is that, especially in view of the profound decline of Jazz in the US and all those juicy Jazz RealTracks? Here they have a venue to perform the music as they would want to hear it.

Jazz flourishes in Europe, which may explain why your reaction is, as I understand it, "What Jazz Problem?"

And, of course, thank you for the positive comments.

Aleck

Hey Floyd,

I agree with your comments about the bass, so I went back and redid it. I think it's better now.

Dean

Melodies are copyrighted, chord changes are free domain. Hooks to a song can probably be copyrighted. Look how many tunes are written to "Rhythm" changes. As far jazz being unpopular, that is not the case. Too many of the top echelon of jazz players are still making CDs and making a lot of money. Miles' "Kind of Blue" is still a big seller. Chick, Herbie, 'Trane, etc. are still making money. It depends on where you are as to the success of jazz. It's alive and well in the D.C. area. Any night of the week there are places to go and hear live jazz. Different kinds of jazz as well. Just sayin'................ Later, Ray

As to why there aren't a lot of jazz players posting their tunes in the User Showcase, a lot of us are using BIAB for live performance only. I have about 1,500 or so tunes in BIAB that I use for live gigs. I have no interest in posting tunes in the User Showcase. BIAB has made a lot of money for me over the years by being able to do a solo gig with bass and drums accompaniment. So that is my main point, BIAB for live performance. Every time a problem arose with BIAB someone on the forum would help out. The only time I ever posted a tune was to get help on recording at home. Later, Ray

here's my take on your articles (Only because you asked):

1) the first two discuss what's LEGAL, but that's not the issue here. A comparison that comes to mind is that of visiting the home of someone who has requested visitors not to smoke. The visitor may argue that it is legal to smoke, and he may even be right. But still it would be inappropriate to override the owner's request.

The rule I'm talking about is not the law, it is the condition for participation that PGMusic has set forth in clear writing.

2) My take on the last one (a collection of attaboys from Peter Gannon) is as follows:

It is important that they have clearly posted rules in case the music gestapo tries to make a fuss. But PGmusic has often winked at their own rules. The adage that it's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission applies here.

Furthermore, Dr. Gannon has shown himself to be an amazingly tolerant person. He has no incentive to bear down on anybody, that's a lose-lose proposition for any businessman... and I think he'd rather people had fun, which you are clearly doing.

Plus, he clearly likes what you're doing, and rightly so. But that's a different discussion.

Obviously, I can't speak for the owner of the business. But I can point to the rules that apply to everybody else on the forum. Many people have bemoaned the fact that they aren't supposed to post their versions of other peoples' songs. Those who have asked for permission have been denied. On the other hand, those who have presumed approval and just posted have never been reprimanded as far as I can see.

Returning to the analogy, you may not be openly chastised for smoking in the non-smoker's house.. but all of the other smokers who have sucked it up and honored the owner's wishes will certainly take note.

Hi Pat,

I always enjoy reading what you write. I have a great deal of admiration for the clarity that you bring when issues are confusing and confronting. I hope you don't mind my adding my "two cents worth" to your below statement.


Since the User Forum began around three years ago, there have been a number of arrangements of copyrighted songs posted. By far, the large majority of those posts have been removed, without fuss, by moderators. Whether or not posters are reprimanded, I don't know. Such posts have been here one day and gone the next. Maybe PG Music send an email to these posters because I've noticed that it's rare for a poster to infringe copyright a second time.

In addition, my observations are that posting arrangements of songs in the public domain has never been an issue since the poster fulfills PG Music's requirements that "You must have all of the rights to the songs." No laws are broken when working with public domain material and the arranger holds all relevant copyright rights.

It's also worth noting that when a song is originally copyrighted as "words and music by composers A and B (even C, D, etc.)", then each of those composers are credited with writing both words and music; whether one composer was the main lyricist and another was the main melodist is irrelevant. Simply removing or changing lyrics does not make any difference in relation to copyright infringement in these instances. If a song is originally copyrighted as "words by A and music by B", then different copyright rules apply. Sometimes, with the passage of time, a "words by A and music by B" copyright morphs into "words and music by A and B". My understanding is that in such instances, the original copyright applies and any rewording does nothing to modify that original copyright. (Maybe that's just Australia, though.)

It's true that every once in a while a song can slip past the forum moderators. I suspect that this is because either (a) the song is less well known and the moderator is not aware that the post infringes copyright on one or more levels, or (b) the number of new posts between the moderator's visits makes it difficult to check every detail of every post.

I can only speak for myself. I have a huge respect for all that Peter Gannon has done in relation to PG Music, the BIAB suite of software programs, and this amazing on-line community of forums that he graciously provides and maintains. I would never want to do anything to jeopardize PG Music. Peter looks after me way too well. That's also why I like to help others understand the product in the various forums. It's my way of saying "Thank you, Peter and PG Music."

Kind regards,
Noel

P.S. I've also 'met' some excellent people on these forums and I enjoy their friendship a great deal

Noel,

thanks for adding such a detailed and helpful response! You keep a closer watch on the showcase than I do. Apparently the songs that were removed all happened when I wasn't watching.

I like the fact that PGMusic maintains protocol in such a peaceful non-confrontational way. I also like the fact that the users tend to keep one another aware of the rules. After all, we have a vested interest in the forum, and I think most of us would hate to lose access to such a rich resource.

Regarding forum friendships, I agree 100%

Hi Guys

I think the only exceptions I can think of to your well reasoned and well taken points is the instance of the contrafact.

On the surface of it, many would say there's no issue here.
Looking at jazz history and the kind of melodies composed over chord progressions to well known standards its clear that many of them bear little or no relation to their original inspirations and indeed qualify as full blown improvisations on the harmonies in many cases.

But what if someone were to post a so called 'original' composition that used the melodic outline and form of a well known song changing a note here or there perhaps adding some additional notes but not in a way that really disguised it's identity? Perhaps a chord or two is changed but again the functional structure is retained with all the points of resolution clearly following the original tune.

Assuming the tune was well enough known to be recognizable in the first instance, what would be the attitude of the forum towards this kind of re-creation? And would such a tune qualify as a contrafact at all?


Alan

Good question, Alan. You've managed to peg my ...
I DON'T KNOW-O-METER
0_____________/_100

Hi Alan,

A good example of what you're talking about is Eva Cassidy's version of "Over The Rainbow" (found at the below link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RDmXsGeiF8

I reckon that if Eva's version was played as an instrumental, no-one would know what the original song was. There are little snippets of phrases that hint at the original melody but, for the most part, the melody is essentially a whole new song. I suspect that upon hearing it, people would feel a sense of familiarity but not necessarily know why.

Since chord progressions are generally not copyrightable, if Eva sang different words, I bet that this would standalone as a whole new song.

For what it's worth: Using a chord progression from a song and writing a new melody over the top of it is recommended by just about every songwriting book I've read as a great way to start learning how to song-write.

Regards,
Noel

Hi Alan,

Much of this debate reminds me of a story they tell about the sculptor Rodin. Someone asked Rodin, "How do you sculpt an elephant?" Rodin replied, "Well, you start with a big block of stone and chop away anything that doesn't look like an elephant." Incidentally, what Rap "music" does is start with the elephant and slap sufficient concrete onto it until you get back the block of stone.

This is an old philosophical chestnut. Since things are defined by their features, how many features must be altered or removed before the thing in question fails to qualify as its former self. Take, on the one hand, some cattle and, on the other, some steaks. Obviously a cow is not a steak and vice versa. At what point in the butchering process can you point and say, "There! Stop there - now its not a cow." A less frivolous example concerns how modern homo sapiens stands in relation to its anthropoid ancestors. Was there a "first" homo sapiens? In a continuum of small adaptions it's hard to know.

For the very same reason, all other considerations put aside, the idea of a cover song is inherently vague.

In conclusion, let me say that none of my posts have been taken down by moderators, and in past discussions, I have offered over and over to take down any post that offends any member for any reason. I haven't received my first such request but I continue to maintain this policy. I would never be offended by such a request precisely because, as has been pointed out, this is a civil Forum of many talented, thoughtful and articulate people all of whose opinions get the same weight.

With kind regards,

Aleck

and yet the the idea of an original song seems pretty easy to grasp

having said all that, I think its safe to say that your posts are going over well, and I doubt that anybody wants you to stop. *I* sure don't

I just want to hear what you'd come up with given the challenge of writing a totally original song that borrows neither theme nor title nor melody nor lyrics from a well known song.

hi alack this is a great forum lots of great feed back and comments that encourage people like myself its a journey of learning not having the theory back ground and don,t sing well I rely on my ears and try to do intrumentals I respect all musicians here who contribute there songs and work and I like your guitar work and the notes you choose very tasteful I have to say I enjoy lots of genres and love to here more from musicians that are successful out thanks eric

Pat,

You got it - the original tune you ask for.

Aleck

Thanks Aleck, but... I don't see a link in your post... is it somewhere else?

Another great performance Aleck. Really enjoyed the locked-hands approach.

Great guitar & bass playing!! Thanks

Here it comes baby!

Aleck

I'm very new here and to BIAB.
I've only done one original song using BIAB as my test subject.

Regarding the above post could one say the following?:
If a verbatim song structure is easily recognizable by someone would that not define it, by default, as contrafact or derivative?
Would one say that not enough original thought/modifications were implemented in said song for one to actually call it an 'original'?

I think much of this is inherently determined by each of our own personal criteria/interpretations.
I can easily understand the diversity of opinions on this subject.
Hopefully, I stayed within the context of the entire thread of opinions.

Feliz Viernes to all....carry on.

You keep teasing us! Where is it?

-Scott

Scott,
he posted it in a new thread, located here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=204924#Post204924

Who would have ever thought that a Jazz performance would get 600+ (and counting) listeners?

Quoting that revered philosopher of old NY radio DJ's, "Jocko" (of Jocko's Rocker Ship): GREAT KOOGA-MOOGA!!

You should also be warned about Jocko's judgment: He once introduced one of Jerry Lee Lewis' most famous songs by saying:

JACK BE NIMBLE, JACK BE QUICK, JACK JUMPED OVER THE CANDLE STICK ...

... and now, here's Jerry Lee Lewis with ... "GREAT BALLS OF FIRE!!"

And Jocko was promptly fired. Nevertheless, I want thank all you who commented favorably, and say one more time, "GREAT KOOGMA-MOOGA, GREAT BALLS OF FIRE!!

Aleck

I think it's safe to conclude that, if the numbers aren't lying, one answer to the "Problem(s) with Jazz" is now forthcoming. Many responses to my original post emphasized accessibility, a clear line-of-sight to the melody even when it is being transformed under improvisation.

And there was the oft quoted word, "noodling" as in "aimless noodling, possibly at 120 mph". Well, you just can't noodle with chords or play them at 120 mph, although I must say I do try.

At first I thought smooth jazz might be the accessible music that could attract the interest of Forum members. But numbers don't lie. Cerveza! will wind up getting more listeners than any of the smooth jazz, parody tunes, funk, vocals, or blues that I've posted. Because the improvisation is melodic. That's progress.

Aleck

The problem with Jazz is that there is wayyyy toooo much talk about it and too little playing it.

Later,

I wish that I could play guitar and bass like that!

IMHO this puts you in the upper class of jazz guitarists and justifies your place along side greats like Tony Mottola, Johnny Smith and others.

This is a keeper.

+1

(even though I pick on him)

Hey Mario,

I've never received such a profound complement. Wow! As a token of appreciation my next post is directed to you, compagno.

I hope I don't screw it up, but I can tell you that Pat Marr liked Blues for Pat the cat with the black hat. I'd like to keep batting 1000 if I can.

Aleck

Hey Black Hat,

Come on man, you never pick on me, but we can occasionally talk past each other. I blame that on the subject matter.

Aleck

PS Thanks for the +1