This chord, X7#9#11, appears in a song by one of my favorite Brazilian composers, Marcos Valle. It's not recognized in BIAB. I've substituted X7b5#9 but wondered if this chord could be added, even if remapped?

+1

Unfortunately it seems to be not supported yet, and it is also not contained as an chord symbol in PGChords nor in my new font BeStPlain. 7 #9#11 should be added, but for now there is no free place left, as font encoding uses just 8 bits. There would be the need to switch to Unicode. I will diskuss this with Peter.

Ah, I never considered there might be a limit. There's another chord I want more. I'll post that as soon as I check whether it's supported yet.

I do not know if there really is a limit, at least in terms of the musical programming substructure of Band in a Box. But at least there is at the moment still the limit in the chord character sets.

I happen to know that the shift to Unicode is already in motion, so hopefully this will be one good side effect of that development.
But I'm not sure the font angle is the only reason for this limitation. I mean, I still can't find the way to get a simple flat9 (Xb9) chord that doesn't want a seventh of some sort added to the mix!

Do you have a published song that needs a flat nine with neither seventh? Just curious, as I've never seen that.

I'm pretty sure I have, for I remember making my own posts about this on here before. Can't seem to think of any precise case samples at the moment, though.
Out of curiosity back, if I may: What about minor chords with a b9 and no 7? For I myself most certainly use those when I play at least.

Matt,

A dominate b7b9, like C7b9, is common in the guitarist's world. I have seen and used it a lot. There is a Cmaj7b9 but I don't think that I have ever used that chord.

Right, Mario. He was talking about a b9 with no 7th at all.

Sorry Matt for the confusion. I read neither seventh as either seventh.

Ps I go to the eye specialist later this month--no kidding!

And not a moment too soon either, by the sound of it

(couldn't resist, sowwy)

I can pretty much see stuff, with special glasses for being 30" from the computer (or music stand). But I'm not making any guarantees about understanding it.

Got that right

Ps - don't be sowwy, that was a good one

That's a relief, you never really know with humour beforehand.
I just have this weakness for puns & punchlines, I guess

For an X(b9), how about Dbdim/C?

That covers all the notes, I suppose, though with a bit obscure emphasis on the tension (in the root position)...but this tip also reminded me of where I needed (and asked about) this kind of chord, so thanks at least for jogging my memory

When you get to these kinds of chord extensions, you still won't hear them when using Real Tracks if they didn't record them in the first place. Midi styles should be able to use them though.

I've asked this before, how large would a piano RT file have to be to include all possible chord extensions in three keys and is there a limit to an RT's size? This point could be a problem with subtle changes like no 7th in a b9 chord. Now you're asking for an RT to be recorded with both versions of a b9? There must be a limit to how many different chords can be put into one RT.

Bob

There's a lot we users don't know. It's even worse than I thought, when Bernhard suggested there might be a limit.

Bob raises an excellent point: the subtleties of these extensions won't be heard unless they were recorded during the creation of that RealTrack. So, I would be happier if chords that appear in fake books were simply remapped to existing supported chords, instead of the chord type not being supported.

Then there's that, yes, good points there that I just hadn't considered.
I guess there's always going to be a limit, and the remapping idea is a good concept to counter that. It's always preferable to hear something than nothing, you know.

A chord with b9 is ever a dominant 7 chord

Are you sure this statement is written as you meant it?

More than thirty years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a masterclass of maestro Joe Pass at the jazz festival in Vitoria, Spain. One of the lessons that was recorded in my mind was his explanation that for him only three families of chords existed, Major, minor and dominant 7. He emphasized that for him the diminished chords were dominant 7h b9 chords.
IMHO Note b9 in major or minor chords is an erroneous note.
I do not remember ever having found a score in the Realbooks with b9 alteration in a chord other than dominant 7h.
Sorry for my english, I'm using google translator.

Rafa,

Google translator did a great job of translating Spanish to English!

Many theory books agree with Joe Pass and treat a diminished 7th chord as a dominant 7th with a flattened 9th that does not have the root present. For example, in the key of C, Bdim7 (B-D-F-Ab) is often easiest thought of G7b9 (G-B-D-F-Ab) without the G.

Regards,
Noel

Exactly ;-)

Regards
Rafa

So the translation of "is ever" means, "is always". I thought it might have been a typo for 'is never', which is why I checked.

I don't think I've ever written a b9 without a dominant 7th, either. I'll check as I go through my songs and report if I find a b9 that does not have a dominant 7th.

That's right, that's what I meant.

Now I understand. The truth is that I was surprised by your comment because you are a great musician. I know your excellent Brazilian Wish recording, very beautiful music. I am also a great lover of Brazilian music ;-)

Bests regards
Rafa Toledo

Cool! Thank you,

The only chord that I know of that has a flatted 9th with no seventh is the major sus4 flat9 chord; for example Csus4b9.

See here: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music_Theory/Complete_List_of_Chord_Patterns

And let's not forget about minor chord with a flat 9 and no 7th. Those can't be that obscure, particularly in the context of improvisation or scales.

Speaking of 'forget' - It appears that I myself forgot that I had already raised that "minor chord" issue before, in this very thread

I have never met this chord in 40 years of music career!
Curious to see a music score showing this chord !

Unless I missed something, you can't enter that in BIAB either. You can enter C7susb9 but I don't think Csusb9 can be entered. All sus chords in BIAB have 7, 9 or 13.

Hi Mario,

I've used the sus4 with b9 on several songs I've written. It has a bit of a "mysterious" sound to it that I like. Also, as an example, if you make an Asus4b9 and then change the "A" note to a C, you now have a C9.

Just a couple of random thoughts that crossed my mind!

Alan