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<<Keeping your main PC until it 'dies', and making it a lower priority than musical 'toys' seems like a bad idea to me Bob. Don't you make your living from PC based music?>>

True, but perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough. I sometimes don't type exactly what I should in the way that is easy for everyone to understand - I'm too close to the subject

My main computer is much newer, multi-core Intel, and lots of RAM. It has made for Win7 on it, but Win7 was brand new then and ThinkPads gave me an option to boot either in Win7 or XP, so I chose XP because after the Vista problems, I wasn't about to try Win7 since it had no reputation yet. The trade magazines were saying it was much better than Vista, but when things are pretty new, the trades are often overly enthusiastic. Sometimes the cutting edge is the bleeding edge. I'd like to wait at least until the first service pack has been released before I go with a new OS.

So while I will keep this computer until it goes belly-up, it won't be my main computer for that long. By the time it's time to 'meet its maker' it will be demoted to a function that my iPod can do, simply play mp3 files. And all those mp3 files will be backed up in multiple places, including 'the cloud' to be sure that if something happens, I can still make my living playing music.

My computers go from main, then get demoted to secondary status, the things that are more play than work and apps that I don't want on my main work computer. After that they get demoted again to a mp3 player for my backing tracks on stage, and for the last years of their life, they get demoted as a backup computer on stage. With the average life of a ThinkPad to be 8 years, that gives me about 2 years of life as a main computer.

As far as being a mp3 player on stage, my 2002 ThinkPad will still do that just fine, but it started to develop horizontal lines on the screen when moving the lid, so I retired that one years ago. High quality and high bit-rate MP3 files played through a good MP3-Audio interface and then into a nice PA system doesn't take much processing power. I suppose my old Win98 computer would do that well if I still had it (stripped everything but the OS and gave it to a nephew).

I have a feeling it's time to buy another one and make the chain of demotions. But since the 'secondary' computer is giving me that kind of trouble, I might not demote it and take a chance since the stage computer and the stage computer backup are not giving me any problems at all. Perhaps I'll play with Linux on it, that could be fun.

So I'm looking on the Lenovo site and doing some research to make sure I will be getting what I need. Win7 has been out long enough and has proven itself. I may as well get it before the brand new Win8 comes out. I hate brand new OS's because they are often buggy until they get the second or third service pack.

And actually, my main source of income is as a gigging musician http://www.s-cats.com. The BiaB aftermarket line is my 'moonlighting' job ("daylighting"??). And I love it. It brings in enough so that during the slow summer season I don't have to travel to keep making the mortgage payments. And I must say I've become a bit dependent on the "extra" income it brings in. If I wasn't moonlighting on BiaB I'd be doing something else musical to keep me here in the summer (I love Florida summers). If BiaB was my primary source of income, I'd probably have 100 style disks and 100 fake disks out by now.

Besides, the age of the computer should not affect the sound of the Real Tracks anyway. Audio is audio, I use a USB-Audio interface and play them back through a small pro PA set, and I admit they sound great. The small PA system is my back-up system in case the one for gigging fails. Samson Mixer, BBE Sonic Maximizer, QSC Power Amp, 3 way speakers.

The only problem I have with Real Tracks, Fruity Loops and other pre-recorded audio software is that it doesn't give me the ability to edit the instruments as much as I like to. Say if I wanted to change a couple of notes in the middle of a guitar part to insert a song-specific lick, it would be difficult if I had a similar guitar, similar amp, similar FX, similar recording studio, similar playing style and darn near impossible without all those things.

Perhaps I'm a minority, but I like to play with my musical software tools. And I like to play with them a lot. Audio loops allow some playing, but mostly cut and paste. I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

So RTs are a feature I don't use. There are other BiaB features I don't use, and that's OK, others enjoy them. I don't use the melodist, soloist, lyrics, Juke Box, and a few others. I mainly use it because it is the best audio-accompaniment program currently out here (and has been for decades), I use the harmony feature a lot, the piano roll from time to time and although I don't use it as a notation editor (I have Encore) I do refer to the notation windows a lot.

To me the features I don't use are like stations on the radio dial I don't care to listen to. They are for other ears. The features in BiaB that are not for me, are enjoyed by other people, and that's fine with me. I like BiaB for the features that I use, and I use them quite a bit.

And I show BiaB to a lot of people and send them to pgmusic.com. I do one-nighters mostly for yacht clubs, country clubs, and the retirement communities here in Florida (best pay, shortest hours) and often the person who is now retired and wants to start playing music again comes up and wants to know about computer music. I keep a copy of BiaB on my stage computers, and after the show will give them a tour and send them to you. I never tell them about real vs. midi track or anything else, I leave it up to them to decide what they are going to use.

As long as you don't abandon the MIDI part, I'm a happy camper.


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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>>> I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

Other people ** can ** customize them Bob. And I show you how in this video.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316518&an=0&page=2#Post316518

It's as simple as this
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.

- Before you reject this idea (and continue to tell others that it can't be done), have you ever tried it? I have, many times, and it works great. Other who have responded to the thread have reported similar results.


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After the power supply unit quit on my old computer (600 MHz, 1 GB RAM) I invested a little money in what I have now:
an i7-2600k 64bit, 4-core processor with 8 threads, and (only) 8 GB RAM plus a gamer-motherboard with overclocking capabilities.

I won't use overclocking, but the other features make it interesting:
It uses the processors graphics -- hence no graphics adaptor needed, since I don't play such games. It is sufficient for TV and office and music software.
It may hold up to 32 GB memory.
It already has USB3 ports on board for fast connections with harddrives.

I will expand on RAM when 8-GB-chips are available at reasonable prices.


No, I won't go back to the old system. Even my previous laptop with 2.2 GHz and 4 GB RAM had the hiccoughs when using more than two RealTracks and four different chords per measure.

Guido


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Quote:

>>>
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.<...>




I watched/listened to the video demo and definitely understand how to do it. However, the MIDI bass sound did not match the tone of the RT bass. It was harder, had more edge and less bottom. It wasn't necessarily a bad bass, just a different bass. In that case I would find it acceptable for the audience, but the tone change would bug me. Could I live with that? I suppose. But if it were me, unless I had an acoustic bass that matched the tone of the RT bass much better than that, I'd probably re-record the entire bass part as a MIDI bass so I wouldn't get the tonal change. I could live with that easier. But that's just me I guess.

So, I can see how that is done, but I cannot see how my real sounding MIDI sax or guitar is going to have the same tone as the RT guitar or sax. After all, how many guitar tones are there? How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones. Do I want the guitar or sax to abruptly sound like a real but different player for those few notes?

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.

Or guitar, I have many different clean guitar sounds on my MIDI modules, but there are probably thousands of others that I don't have. What are the chances that from the dozens of guitar sounds on my modules one is going to be an exact match to the one on the RT, guitar model, pickup selection, tone controls, amp, fx. etc.?

And if I happen to have a great bass that works even better than the example, what are the chances my guitar, sax, piano and/or other instruments would work too?

I'm thinking that if I am going to punch in a few notes of any instrument part, and get it to sound very close to the instrument on the track that I'm doing the punch-in on, I should have a similar instrument, similar microphone, similar FX unit, and so on. This makes sense to my way of thinking.

I've been on a recording session where the singer came back the next day to punch in over a mistake. The same singer, same microphone, same vocal booth, but the engineer didn't have all the settings recorded (local recording studio). The punch in sounded weird, almost like a feminine version of the same singer so they tweaked and re-punched and tweaked and re-punched. They ended up re-doing the entire vocal track because they couldn't get it to match.

So if that can happen, how can I expect a match without the same instrument and recording chain as the RT player?

Am I over-analyzing this?

Personally I don't see how I can get an exact match, or one close enough for my ears.

If I'm wrong about this, please educate me. This would be a great tool in my musical took kit.

Thanks.


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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Quote:

How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones.




I disagree. A professional bassist can get a lot of different sounds from the same instrument, let alone using different instruments, amps, etc. In fact, I think bass can be one of the most difficult instruments to recreate via MIDI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb3QzDWJ7RU&feature=related



Quote:

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.




Do you know Celmony Melodyne? I think it's a killer combination with Realtracks, and could be what you're looking for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YEebBN2ok

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We will always have those among us who don't necessarily like encompassing changes in the way technologies are done. Grampa wouldn't fly in the airplane, Great-Grandpa wouldn't ride in anything that didn't have a horse in front of it, etc.

So what? Such does not in any way detract from the lives and accomplishments of either, right?

I think that it is just another way in which the wondrous diversity of humankind is manifested.

Bob, you'd make better arguments if you made 'em shorter, just one man's observation. If you don't want to, then say you don't want to and leave it at that, its good in my way of looking at it, if for no other reason than it is yours.


--Mac

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You have some good points Mac.

I'm not a Luddite by any stretch of the imagination. I was one of the first musicians around here to go computer (other musicians were telling me I'd be putting musicians out of work with that thing). I bought BiaB back when it was Atari/DOS/Mac-Motorola. I was the first sax player I know to do wind synth. If I waited too long to jump on the Internet, I never would have gotten the domain name nortonmusic.com

I love new technology, although I usually wait until version 2 comes out to embrace it (learned that from past experience - the cutting edge can be the bleeding edge).

If and when I can edit audio as good or better than I can with MIDI, I'll make the switch. Until then I'll use the tool that allows me to express myself and make my music the way that it pleases my personal tastes.

Virtually every technology has it's benefits and limitations. I've never dissed the better tone benefit of the RTs or audio loops. On the other hand, I also believe in the benefit to more completely and seamlessly edit MIDI. We each have to find the balance that suits us personally. Right now, for me it's MIDI, the ability for me to more completely put my musical expression in the piece is more important than the finer points of tone. When audio editing gets to that point (and it probably will in the future) I'll switch.

I have an afternoon gig today, but tomorrow I'm going to check out Celmony Melodyne and see what it is all about.

Last edited by Notes Norton; 02/28/12 09:10 AM.

Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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You could also check out RealBand Bob.

You can highlight a note (of audio) in the Audio Edit Window, right click and then transpose to change the note (or chord's) pitch. This is a high quality chipmunk free transposition using Elastique algorithms built in to RealBand. You can also create notes or chords using copy and paste.

All of this done within RealBand, no third party software required. Having said that, there is amazing third party software (Melodyne) that can change single notes within an audio chord, when you need to do that.

A much faster way of editing is to just add MIDI tracks to the audio tracks, and either erase the underlying audio, or leave it in. Leaving it in allows the the MIDI to sound more real. Often if the ear is hearing an audio guitar and a MIDI guitar,it all sounds like audio .


Have Fun!
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Thanks Peter!

This sounds exciting. None of this was available when I first tried loops. They were more like a static collage.

I've used BiaB and PTPro for years and always assumed that RealBand was a combination of the two. So I never paid much attention to it. Seems like that may have been erroneous thinking.

I tend to run separate apps instead of the all-in-one app. Smaller menus with fewer sub and sub-sub menus (so I keep my hands off the mouse and on the synth keys more), less clutter, and more intense concentration on each task.

I remember dumping a sequencer/DAW because there were sometimes 4 sub-menus and I'd have to click-click-click-click to perform an action that I did often. Not only was that a time waster, my mouse finger was getting an RSI! (I won't mention any names because that was long ago and they may have fixed the menus.)

I guess R.Band has some nifty additional features that neither BiaB or PTPro has. I'm excited. It seems like a new tool/toy!!! I'm ready for a new adventure. Is there a link to the exclusive features of R.Band?

New computer is ordered (custom configured to keep the bloatware off and install more RAM) so I'll probably wait until it comes in to start the adventure. February and March are our two busiest gigging months as well. Not many days off (and that's a good thing because the slow season follows)

So, when the new ThinkPad arrives, do I just drag and drop the BiaB and RB folders to the new computer?

If so, where should I drop them? I've been told not to put them in the program files folder.

Any suggestions?

(You may make a convert out of me yet).


Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
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So, when the new ThinkPad arrives, do I just drag and drop the BiaB and RB folders to the new computer?

Yes, that will work. You also need to do the fonts, either run a basic install (almost any install of BB will install the fonts), or find the fonts (files beginning with PG and with extension .TTF in the old windows font folder, and copy them to the new PC's font folder.


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Quote:

You could also check out RealBand Bob.

You can highlight a note (of audio) in the Audio Edit Window, right click and then transpose to change the note (or chord's) pitch. This is a high quality chipmunk free transposition using Elastique algorithms built in to RealBand. You can also create notes or chords using copy and paste.

All of this done within RealBand, no third party software required. Having said that, there is amazing third party software (Melodyne) that can change single notes within an audio chord, when you need to do that.

A much faster way of editing is to just add MIDI tracks to the audio tracks, and either erase the underlying audio, or leave it in. Leaving it in allows the the MIDI to sound more real. Often if the ear is hearing an audio guitar and a MIDI guitar,it all sounds like audio .




Hello Mr Gannon,

I have tried what you have said but as the audio is in the shape of a waveform (unlike Melodyne) isn't it going to be a bit difficult to pick out a particular note in the audio edit window?

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Thanks,
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I need further clarification. I've tried this several times and have not been able to get it to work. Is there a video or something that shows how to do this? When i change to the expanded style I can still only get 4 chords in that measure.

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Hi, Dwalk -

When you expand, you have to treat every measure as a half measure, which can get confusing, but works sound-wise. Your notation won't look right, but everything should sound right. What the expansion does is doubles the durations of the notes the style would play, which is why you have to set the tempo to double. So at that doubled tempo, it now takes double the bars to play one bar. But the effect is that it gives you four slots per on-screen bar to enter chords, giving you a work-around for 8th note chord resolution (and even 16th and 32nd note in places, if you you use pushes).

I hope that made sense.


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It might help to think of each numbered slot in the BiaB matrix as a 'cell' instead of a 'bar' or 'measure'. When using an EXPANDED style, each 'cell' becomes a half measure instead of an entire measure. So Bar Number one spans Cells # 1 and 2 -- Bar Number two spans Cells #3 & 4 -- and so on.

To compensate for each cell becoming a half bar instead of a whole one, you must therefore double the tempo.

As John pointed out, this will not work if you are using the notation editor to print lead sheets, but the work-around does allow for the entry of songs that would otherwise have to be severely compromised by BiaB.

As I pointed out earlier, I have a number of styles that were designed to be EXPANDED styles, so if your forced BiaB style doesn't work, go to http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html and give them a listen.

Notes


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Quote:

I have a number of styles that were designed to be EXPANDED styles




And as a satisfied customer, I will definitely vouch for Bob Norton's styles. I have a number of songs that just came to life when I applied some of his styles (this is not to disparage PGMusic styles, because I have lots of songs that use their styles, also, but for some songs, they just didn't sound right until I applied one of Bob's styles).


John

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Thanks, John.

I don't try to write styles to replace PG Music styles. There is no sense in that, PG Music already has a lot of great styles (some of them I wish I had written myself <grin>). Instead, I try to write styles that PG Music hasn't addressed yet. Styles that will work with songs that I can't find a PG Music style to work for.

So I think my styles expand the possibilities of BiaB. They complement the PG styles, instead of replace them.


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OK, a couple of people have recommended Melodyne. I've been to the home page and read a lot about it. I think I'll wait until the gigging slows down to download the demo (I really won't have time to mess with it until after Mother's Day - the "season" dies after Easter and they bury it after Mothers Day).

Which version do you all recommend? It looks like the Editor is the best mix at $400 retail, but the Studio 3 is $700 retail. Is the Studio 3 worth the extra money? And what would I get for the additional $300?

Of course, shopping around will likely get them for less.

I don't want to spend more money than I need to, but on the other hand I don't want to short myself an important function so that I end up saying, "I wish I would have purchased ____ version."

Thanks


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Thanks for the reply, I've been messing around with it. I can get it to work but the drums are way too fast. Is that normal? The chords sound ok. Should I expand from the very beginning of the song? Sorry to be such a bother butI'm a newbie.

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When you 'expand' to use 2 cells for a measure the timing must change.

Before you were moving at 80 bpm and with 4 beats per cell.

Now in 2 cells (not one) is the measure. Just do the math. So start by changing that parameter so the song is going properly and sounds right.


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Today's the Last Day of the Band-in-a-Box 2026® for Mac Special!

Order before 11:59pm PDT today (May 15, 2026) to save up to 50% off your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrade and receive a FREE Bonus PAK loaded with great new Add-ons to use with this new version!

Don't wait - order today!

Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!

Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!

Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.

Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.

If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!

202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!

With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!

Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!

Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.

Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.

Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!

And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.

The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!

2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

  • The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
  • MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
  • Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
  • Playable RealTracks Set 5
  • RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
  • SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
  • iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
  • 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
  • FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
  • MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
  • Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
  • RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
  • SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)

Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

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