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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Peter Gannon,
Thanks for the wonderful products you have created for decades. Thank you also for participating in these forums, so that users can interact directly with the creator of the software, the CEO of the company.
You have participated in this thread, in a conversation with Bob Norton regarding MIDI vs Real Tracks, etc., a very interesting discussion.
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
That is a limitation of BIAB that has been complained about in these forums not only for years, but for decades.
Sure, there are work-arounds, but a lot of hassle, and not always with good results. Or the option of buying Bob's "expanded" styles.
It sure would be nice though, if that serious limitation of BIAB could be resolved without the user having to resort to work-arounds, or to buy a third party add-on.
Is your company working on fixing that limitation? If so, when do you expect that fix to be available?
Thanks again.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.
Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.
Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
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Quote:
This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)
Bruce 
I agree... done!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:
1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?
And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')
2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.
3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure.
If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Apprentice
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Quote:
Quote:
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.
Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.
Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
Not often 6,7,8. Sometimes 5 to be sure.
Whether or not you call it a "harmonized melody" rather than a chord change, one still needs to be able to change the chord more than four times in the measure, and that has been a major limitation of BIAB since its inception.
Frankly, I think posts like yours and John Conley's saying something like: "I don't see why anyone needs to have more than four chord changes in a bar, I never need it, I don't know any songs like that, etc., etc., etc.", are rather silly.
That is fine, if you never need to put more than four chord changes in a bar. But a lot of people have come across that need in certain songs, and have asked for such a fix for decades. Just because you personally have not come across a need for that fix, you do not need to belittle those who do, and imply that such a fix is not necessary, just because you personally have never had a need for it. Respect the fact that others need it.
I would still like a reply from Peter Gannon about this, rather than smokescreens like the post I just replied to.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Apprentice
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Hmmm- Pat. Very interesting concept you have there. That the problem is people considering a measure to be a measure, rather than a "chord cell". May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think. In the BIAB interface, there is much reference to "bars". "Settings for current bar", "play from bar...", "number of bars in chorus", etc. I don't see a setting "number of chord cells in chorus". Do you deny that in music talk the term "bar" is a synonym for "measure"? Or will a music dictionary define "bar" as "chord cell"? Saying that the problem is fixed because users can use complicated workarounds that are a lot of hassle, and do not always bring good results, or that one can buy third party expanded styles to deal with the problem (with those expanded styles limited to MIDI, not RT and RD), seems to me yet another smokescreen, to obscure the fact of a serious limitation that has existed in the program, I think the most persistently complained about limitation for decades. It is certainly no issue to me whether or not Notes Norton is put out of business or not. Completely irrelevant, another attempt at distracting from the main question. Once again, if you, Pat, have not ever had a need to put more than four chords in a measure (yes, I will call it that), that is fine. But there is no need to insult the many users who have asked for this for decades, implying that they are crazy or stupid or something. (Stupid, I guess, to think of "measures" rather than "chord cells"?) I have to say that I find it strange that it seems like every time this limitation has been brought up (which is many times, over years), that posters suddenly appear to insult those who ask about it. Yet PG Music never responds to the question, never says whether they will fix that limitation. So, ignoring the distraction of smokescreens, I am still waiting for a reply from PG or someone else from PG Music, regarding a serious limitation, that users have asked to be fixed for decades, whether a fix is in the works for it. Thank you. Quote:
Quote:
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:
1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?
And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')
2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.
3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure. (So please stop saying it is.)
If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think.
You're right. The documentation does say that. Probably because in all but a handful of songs it functions perfectly well as a measure.
I'm just pointing out the same thing as you, but from a different direction. By your logic and mine a true measure can accommodate more than 4 chords. What the documentation calls a measure cannot do that.
Therefore my conclusion is that is not a measure (even though 99% of the time it can be used that way) , and that a more accurate description of it is "4 chord cell". Anyone who looks at it according to the most functional definition will be best prepared to achieve the results he wants.
Your conclusion is that PGMusic needs to make it function in accordance with the attributes of a measure, allowing 8 chords. Fair enough. We just disagree. Actually, we don't even disagree, we just have a different threshold for contentment.
Regarding insults:
I have nothing to gain by insulting you. I assure you that was not my intent.
Regarding complicated workarounds:
Styles have been the power of BIAB since its beginning. There are many things that can only be accomplished through the creation of special styles. Only those who have taken the time to learn how to make styles know how to do everything the program is capable of doing.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Yes documentation still calls them measures, but it still calls the track that can contain hundreds of different instruments strings and another piano and another guitar. This is because BiaB has expanded from its humble beginnings to what it is today.I tend to think of each numbered section in the matrix as a cell instead of a measure because it allows me to do things that I cannot do otherwise, like play a 5/4 song or a 6/8 song using a SW style and making each cell 2 measures -- or using an EXPANDED style making each cell a half measure to overcome the 4 chord or associated limitation. As far as the 8 chords per bar are concerned, very few songs that I have run across have needed them, but many songs have needed:- more than 4 chords per bar and
- a chord on both a beat and the upbeat preceding it (you can't push a chord and still have the cord on the beat that you pushed).
I've done 29 fake disks http://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake and 28 of them have been transcribed from off-the-shelf, best selling fake books from publishers like Hal Leoanard, Warner Brothers, Alfred and so on. The need for EXPANDED styles are so common, that I don't think I've done a single fake disk that hasn't needed EXPANDED styles - which is the reason I invented them back in the 1990s. And the genres that need EXPANDED styles run across all styles, rock, pop, country, jazz, blues, Latin American, reggae, disco, Broadway and so on. Band-in-a-Box has its great features, but it also has its limitations. For a few examples: - Putting a brass section in the channel labeled 'strings' is one very easy way to get around a limitation.
- Putting the equivalent of a group of Latin American percussionists (conga, timbale, guiro, cowbell, etc.) into one drum channel in the StyleMaker is another,
- using one cell as a 3/4 measure and the next as a 2/4 measure to play a 5/4 rhythm is another,
- exporting to a MIDI sequencer and getting rid of the 3rd in a C5 power chord that BiaB insists on inserting ... or getting rid of the Diminished 7th (also a 6th) in that chord that you wanted to be a diminished triad is another
- and using creating and using EXPANDED styles to put more than 4 chords in a measure or a chord both on the beat and the upbeat before that very same beat is another.
You can choose to use these 'work-arounds' to "fix" the limitations of BiaB if you like, or you can accept those very same limitations. You can also make your wishes known to PG Music who have been very receptive to many of our past wishes. Our wishes are the main reason why there are more than 3 instruments, user styles, full G-MIDI drum kit, Piano Roll editor, Notation, and many of the other improvements that have come along since those DOS days so long ago. Bravo to PG Music for all of this. I choose to invent and use these work-arounds and also to put my improvement wishes into the Wish List. You can either live with the limitations or go with the work-arounds - nobody here seems to be telling anyone what to do, simply offering suggestions as to what you CAN do if you want to. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I am glad that you see the reason that one might want to have more than 4 chords per beat and push to 16ths. Requiring a band hit on an anticipation is really important in modern music. The ability to have a hit on the "ta" of 4 and on the following 1 would be a real gift. Would it be possible for the expanded style to become a 4 bar expansion at 4 times tempo to achieve this? Just wondering. I have just started evaluating BIAB as an arranging tool to cut my work load. I build minus one and Karaoke tracks as well as produce bands and having a way to convey these ideas rapidly and have BIAB handle the basic arrangements for me would be amazing. One track that I am working on for one of my students is the Foo Fighter's Everlong and there are some complex rhythms that defy what I am capable of doing at this point with BIAB. Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future? Thank you for your input. AJ
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Hi AJ, welcome to the forum. One thing, you do realize you're answering someone from almost two years ago? Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future? As to your question, who knows? This is just us users here. No inside secrets available. This would go in the Wishlist forum. I know this would be very cool and has been asked about for years. What version of Biab are you using? Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi all. The last post prior to this one was in 2013. I just thought I'd ask to check if all of the above is still the case as far as anyone knows.
I too would like a simple and direct way to have a chord on the "and of 4" and then a chord (same or different) on the following 1.
Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
BIAB for Windows 2023 (1006)
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EXPANDED styles are the only way I know to do that. I invented EXPANDED styles decades ago and I have a nice selection. You can demo a lot of them in a low-fi MP3 at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.htmlNote they are MIDI styles, I used the built in software synth that came with BiaB at the time, and ripped at a very low bit rate. If you have a better synth, they will sound much better. Insights, incites and a self-serving but I hope helpful plug by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
I agree Norton Expanded Styles are currently the best way. But it's not the ONLY way. You can increase the duration of your song by twice, then change the style and try to find a good fit. Now you have over two measures what was formerly in one, so you have eight possible chords in those two measures. The notation won't be right, but often the sound can work. Or - maybe that's what you meant by 'built" rather than 'purchased'?
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.
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I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.
My workflow is like yours, i.e. BiaB MIDI files to DAW, mine being Studio One Pro. But I would like to see PGMusic add things like chords on eighth or sixteenth notes. Having BiaB do it would be a lot faster than what I have to do in my DAW. YMMV
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For me, I don't need more than 4 chords per bar. Fingering more than 4 on a guitar is not practical, unless you are a contortionist, or the song is very slow. I can agree that more than 4 positions for chords makes some sense. However, my ear doesn't usually hear such subtle change in a chord position.
There are far more issues that need to be addressed than this.
BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
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You're a guitarist, not the same on keyboards. It also depends on your style of playing. Simple strumming on the downbeat or basic 4/4 country/blues/rock is one thing but as soon as you get into more complex syncopated latin jazz/funk/fusion it's a whole other thing. I'm sure you've heard of the classic R&B song Mercy, Mercy, Mercy? That's a perfect example of what Biab can't do without expanding the style and doing these workarounds and yes, it's very important to musicians doing songs like that and no, nothings changed in the years I've been using Biab in spite of the fact it has to be one of the oldest Wishlist items there is.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Any changes on 4 chords per bar in 2020?
BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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