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This general topic pops up occasionally and thought I'd seek more input on the subject.
Playing around with some Jazz Acoustic Bass RealTracks. I wanted a solo walking bass intro for 4 bars. To get a phrase I liked, the Play button had to be pushed about 10 times. It seems like the particular track only had 4 or so phrases, some occurring more than others. There are other RealTracks that also seem to have a very limited number of phrases and got me wondering...
My knowledge of Midi instructions is very limited but there seems to be a lot of data that can be stored using Midi messages. Now assuming a high quality synth and descriptive Midi messages, is it possible to get virtually the same sound as a RealTrack? Auditioning styles, I've found some bass lines to have more realistic sounding phrases than others. If enough Midi data could be captured from a live player, the Midi phrases should be the same as the RT? The only limitation I can see is the quality of the synth. Some advantages would be tremendous savings in disk space over RTs and easily editable tracks.
So back to my inital question. Can enough data be captured and stored in Midi messages that would sound like a RealTrack given a good synth? Are the BIAB Midi styles the 'best they can be'? I suspect because of the great number of styles, it is a work in progress. Are these phrases done at the keyboard or with a live instrument?
And if anyone who appreciates a good jazz bass has a favorite style, I'd love to know it - I may have missed it.
Thanks,
R
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The bass only sounds as good as the midi 'instrument'. There's a vast difference between what you get as a midi instrument with windows and say the Ketron SD2 or even a Roland older JV1010.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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That's a thought-provoking question. For me, the answer is no. My Roland Fantom is one of the acknowledged better-sounding hardware synths out there. While I do use the MIDI bass, it's only on the Soloist track while doing unison or ensemble parts where I temporarily mute the RealBass track. I'm so spoiled by the nuances in the bass playing of the Real Tracks that I can't bring myself to listen to the MIDI playing while comping, even if the sound quality is acceptable. It's probably a personal choice, though, for each user, and differences may also be more pronounced depending on genre. Mine is jazz only.
When I experimented with Garritan Jazz & Big Band, I did a little programming of the controllers for the acoustic bass and really liked it, but the amount of work to get an acceptable sound was not worth it for me. As a composer, I want tools that work for me with little effort and just get out of my way quickly and let me do the creative process. The BIAB RealTrack bass does that. If I were producing commercial quality tracks and not composer demos, again my answer might be different.
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The limitation, as I understand it, is not with the MIDI end but with the synthesizer. For example, listen to the sample modeling trumpet or trombone and compare it to any other "ordinary synthesizer" trumpet and trombone. The difference is vast. One is complex and rich, the others are puny and unsatisfying once you have used the "good stuff".
I would not be surprised that if Acoustic Bass was done with the sample modeling technology you would find it hard to tell the difference between smABass and the Real Tracks (e.g. live real A Bass).
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If they were "Jazz Acoustic Bass RealTracks" then surely this is not midi sound. The sound will therefore depend on the quality of your soundcard and speakers.
If it really is midi sound you are talking about then it is the same things plus the soundfonts used. With some soundcards you can change individual fonts or a whole soundfont bank.
However, I suspect you are complaining about the style of base playing used in the bass RealTracks - in other words the lines the bass player laid down. Here I might agree that the input chosen by the programmers seems to be quite limited. But is suppose it really is a question of individual preferences about how the bass player should play the lines.
I also have problems with the bass lines. I often wonder if they have been correctly programmed, because I cannot determine where '1' is by listening to the first note in the bar. In addition, there are too many grace notes and fills. I much prefer a straight four-in-the-bar walking bass but it is almost impossible to get this at slow tempos. I just like a more obvious bass player, which is what I find most real bass players do these days.
I will concede that there have been changes over the history of jazz playing and it took a long time for them to create quarter-note walking bass lines with a real swing feel. For a couple of decades after the advent of bebop, bass playing went off the rails and there are still some bass players who do not often start a bar with the root note of the chord.
Many frontline players, like me, listen to the bass player to 'hear' the chords and that is why I need that chord root note at the start of a bar. This is probably why I prefer Jodi Proznick to Neil Swainson. But I do wonder about that programming. Sometimes it seems to me that the lines slip a whole beat and that is why the first note is not obvious. Or perhaps the lines played for the recordings of RealTracks do not handle more complex chords. I really don't know what is the problem but sometimes I have to revert to old midi styles because I just can't tell where I am in a chord progression.
What I do like about Band-in-a-Box is that you can make the bass player strike the notes a few microseconds early. That is another essential element for swinging bass playing.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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This is an excellent question that deserves significant discussion. The short answer is that it can and should sound as good as the live playing on a good controller and as good as the playback on a good midi source. On many tunes we have used proprietary bass lines on intros played on an RD700 recorded into midi and played back back through the same. I don't think anyone ever noticed that the intro was midi and the rest of the tune was real bass. I really like real drums and many other real tracks but there comes a time when you need better control of the notes played.
I hope PG will place more emphasis on actual midi recordings of midi styles. I know some BIAB midi drum tracks are played on controllers and they often sound quite good throuh EZ drums or the RD700. How about "REAL MIDI" - I will it buy because it offers so much more control. I frequently use EZ drums because I can choose the precise drum set and playing that I like and tempo never affects quality. Great real tracks sometimes aren't usable because the sound was distorted or the stretched sound isn't acceptable. My number one priority would be keyboard comping in midi. IMHO the piano comping isn't up to the sound quality of the drums or bass - we primarily use BIAB for bass and drums and roll our own piano and guitar. MY next goal is some big band charts and am considering Garritan JBB3. Many existing BIAB style have nice brass parts and sound ok with present gear.
I plan to continue buying the upgrades but would like to see the midi playing catch up with the feel of RTs.
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Quote:
I plan to continue buying the upgrades but would like to see the midi playing catch up with the feel of RTs.
I never like to say never but, it's never gonna happen because of the General Midi standard. GM does not allow for all the nuanced control necessary to emulate a real player. This is why Garritan, the now defunct Gigasampler and a bunch of other high end samplers don't use GM. They've developed their own proprietary way of controlling midi in order to try to get where you want to go. In order to make Biab accessible to the masses PG is using General Midi. You can see by reading the forums, a lot of folks barely understand basic midi as it is. Throw Garritan's very technical midi control methodology at them and they will just throw their hands up and move on to something else. That tech is also very expensive. I was looking at a horn library last year that has unbelievable control over every aspect of playing a horn. Dozens of separate attacks in order to capture all the little ways a player blows into their mouthpiece. This is in addition to the sounds themselves. Think about how the sound changes on a sax just by how the player blows it, lips it, sings into it, hums into it, all kinds of stuff to get certain very famous sax sounds. That horn software with a DVD explaining how to control it cost $2,700. No General Midi there. The demo's were amazing though. I've heard some excellent acoustic bass programs too but very expensive. I think one I saw at NAMM a couple years ago was around a thousand bucks or so. Just for bass. Again, special controllers, special software and you need a degree in computer science to use it. This is far beyond spending a few hundred bucks on Biab for the masses.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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GM would be great but if I can add one instrument at a time I am happy for now.
I have a number of jazz midi files that sound pretty darn good just going thrugh the RD700. I still feel that great midi bass is possible with out much investment. The BIAB midi jazz bass parts lead very nicely and sound good thru a good sound source. They lack some of the live playing character and rhythmic figures (triplets) of the bass RTs. Sometimes the bass RTs get too far out for a given tune. I would like to see some of the RT bass players and electric players playing on a state of the art controller into midi. Let's make BIAB midi bass lines better then it is up to the the consumer to come up with the players to make the most of it.
I will concede that the brass is possibly too complex/expensive for now. As a bass player (upright and electric) I am confident that midi bass can be equal and occasionally better than RTs.
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Quote:
I never like to say never but, it's never gonna happen because of the General Midi standard. GM does not allow for all the nuanced control necessary to emulate a real player.
So the weakness is GM's ability to store enough data regardless of the 'recording' process to capture the data.
And yes, there is nothing like hearing the sound of those upright strings hitting the neck!
R
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I believe you can get very realistic bass parts in midi with the use of very good sound sources and midi controllers. Note that the use of very good sound sources also means more money than a simple GM set.
However I do not believe it is possible within BiaB for two reasons. One is the one midi out port; yes I know there are work-arounds however BiaB should have more than one midi out port-period. Secondly and more important is the fact that the midi resolution of 120 PPQ is to course to allow very fine midi control. With a midi resolution up to 960 PPQ one can get a more realistic live playing character and the triplets that dpresley mentions. All sequencers that I know of can be set to at least to 960 PPQ and that includes RB. So one would have to create and/or modify their bass parts in a sequencer to achieve better sounding midi bass. IMHO this is also true for any midi instrument.
Just my two cents.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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MIDI has no sound, only a set of instructions telling your synth what to play.
My Korg i3 has the best acoustic bass sound in my collection of synths, but I suppose there are others out there with equal or better sounds.
My Roland Sound Canvas (hardware) has a decent acoustic bass, my Edirol SD90 does not (and it's much more expensive).
My Yamaha VL70m does the best bass emulation even though the sound isn't quite as good as the i3, because it reproduces the nuances of acoustic bass better.
That's the way it is with most synths. One has a great X sound, the other Y and the next one Z.
And great sound also depends on your personal taste and the song you are working on.
They only way to get good MIDI sounds, is to get a good MIDI synth (hardware or software - I prefer hardware YMMV)
Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
I will concede that there have been changes over the history of jazz playing and it took a long time for them to create quarter-note walking bass lines with a real swing feel. For a couple of decades after the advent of bebop, bass playing went off the rails and there are still some bass players who do not often start a bar with the root note of the chord.
Well, there are those among us who think that is a wonderful thing.
--Mac
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The best software bass I have heard IMO is Trillian from Spectrasonics. This is a fully featured set of basses in both acoustic and electric (many types). The acoustic double bass is stunningly real and features slides, stacatto finger fumbles and a host of other articulations. TO program a 'real' sound takes more than just good software there is so muich to 'feel' that the real musician does unconsciously but which really adds to the dynamism of the sound. Its much more than mere velocity. The weakness of many bass synths particularly keyboard basses is that you only get one sound per note - its simply not enough tm emulate, although it may be a good sound in its own right.
In a real insturment every sound is a universe. As a sax player I do not believe that I have ever played the same note twice - in oscilloscope terms even thnough I have been playing many years. There is stuff we do with our fingers as they leave the fret, the sound of an open string is different ot a fingered one, stacatto is much more than only one way to shorten a note, where we touch the string is also a factor, how it bounces, attack is also very variable and not simply a small range of types as is the way we end a note. The way we instictively put a run together is a hard wired thing in the subconscious mind and is only partilally controlled by the intellect, if we want to program this we must understand hte little things that make a lick so alluring - its often the fumbles the slight variations in rhythm that makes the sound so appealing.
Unfortunately I do not know a way to plug this in to BIAB
ALL IMO
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No matter how good the sound of the midi bass, it still can't approach "the feel" of the Real Bass. My 2 cents worth.
+1 for Mac's last post. Playing only roots on the downbeats is an older style of playing bass.
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And again, what does the audience think as they pass the pitcher of beer around and laugh. Right, they are thinking about downbeats, deadbeats, the attack, the chorus settings, and of course the pluck.
Right. Most wouldn't know a bass from a washtub if they fell in or on one.
Caught up in GAS, nitpicking, and foot stomping cause it just sounds wrong to me, is often self-agrandisement gone wild.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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My favorite bass player playing the right notes on a RT at the right tempo would be the ultimate - agreed. I often don't get that with RTs. My point is that BIAB can and I believe will improve its midi capabilities. Midi will never be perfect but it can get better. With more powerful computers many of the factors discussed above will be built into software to emulate random articulations. The idea is not to ever replace live musicians but simply make it as good as possible. I am betting that PG Music will surprize us over the next few years with things we thought were impossible.
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Quote:
My point is that BIAB can and I believe will improve its midi capabilities. Midi will never be perfect but it can get better. I am betting that PG Music will surprize us over the next few years with things we thought were impossible.
1. The direction seems to be realtracks. Now if you really want great bass in a midi context I see this as a great opportunity for Notes Norton, or some other enterprising chap chappette to enter the field and make some great sounding midi backing bass.
2. You can bet, based on past experience, that PG mussic will surprise us again and again, but not often in the way you anticipate.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
MMy point is that BIAB can and I believe will improve its midi capabilities. Midi will never be perfect but it can get better. With more powerful computers many of the factors discussed above will be built into software to emulate random articulations. The idea is not to ever replace live musicians but simply make it as good as possible. I am betting that PG Music will surprize us over the next few years with things we thought were impossible.
Again, never say never but...that would mean PG dropping the General Midi Standard. That in turn would cause no end of grief for the average user who just wants to put in some chords and hit play. I may be wrong but I don't think you understand what GM means and what it does. GM is first a standard set of 128 instrument patches that call up the same instrument on any synth be it hardware or software that has a GM soundbank in it. That means you could send a midi file to anybody anywhere in the world and as long as they have some kind of GM synth at least the instruments match. The sound quality can still vary quite a bit but the instruments are same ones you hear. So, if you have the bass highlighted in Biab's instrument track and it's a fretless, you hear fretless bass not a kazoo or something else. It doesn't mean it's the exact same sample, just the same patch number that is a fretless.
If you're using either a synth without a GM bank or you don't want to use the GM bank because it sucks, now you're using a variety of tools to map the GM patch numbers to your synth and that can be relatively painless or a total pia depending.
As I mentioned earlier the GM standard also only has a few midi controllers available and they are no where near enough to do what we're talking about here. Drop the GM standard and replace it with what exactly? Whatever it is, everybody has to have the exact same setup or chaos will ensue and by everybody I mean whoever you may want to send that file to or maybe post on the internet. If it's an audio MP3 of your work fine, but if it's a Biab file or a midi file or a Real Band seq file, no way will all this work if it's not GM unless the person who opens it has the same synth with the same controllers as you put in that file. All the work you put into creating the nuances you want with the bass is lost and it not only won't have those, it will probably sound like crap on another setup because who knows what all those controllers will do to a different synth.
The GM standard is over 25 years old now and badly needs updating but good luck getting all the manufacturers together to agree on that. There doesn't appear to be any interest in that because all the different companies have spent tons of cash on developing their own systems so you will buy their stuff. PG could of course do that too but it would mean developing their own synth's and controller specification. So far they've been happy to be a software supplier and you're on your own for sound sources but as you said, who knows what they may do in the future.
Bob
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First of all thanks for an interesting discussion.
The point I am not making very well so far is that the actual recording of midi tracks whether piano or bass can be greatly improved. You can drag and drop notes to make a primitive track or it can be played in using a good controller. It can be straight quarter notes or very complex. The quality of the actual midi recording has nothing to do with general midi playback. I know for certain that good midi tracks can sound very good. The better the playback device the better the sound.
Here are two examples of midi that sounds quite good to my ears.
1. recorded piano midi tracks played played back on my RD700. I often use this instrument rather than a real grand piano because it normally sounds better. It is always in tune and very playable. A midi recording catches a lot of the great sound including velocity, pedal and midi notes. The actual playing determines the quality. Many existing BIAB tracks sound good through this instrument.
2. the EZ drummer format also works well and still uses midi. The drum style/patterns are recorded midi loops by real drummers. The recorded midi trigger various drum kits and sounds. I occasionally use EZ drums because I can select and mix the drum kit and various volumes etc. This is not pure GM but the concept still applies. Many existing BIAB drum tracks sound very good when trigering these drum kits.
I really like real tracks when they work and they work for me most of the time. There are plusses and minuses for RTs and Midi and I use the one that produces the best result. New projects always start out with RTs. I use midi when I can't get what I want. I frankly think the issues with the piano RTs limit their application to a narrow range. It appears that the pedal hold is one limiting factor plus grand pianos are hard to record. I frequently use a suitable BIAB midi piano to have better control of the playing and sometimes to improve the sound quality.
I would be delighted to see PG (where possible) record the RTs both accoustically and via midi. I know this would work well for the piano tracks. Very clean audio stereo tracks could be recorded simultaneusly along with midi. Sometimes the playing is great but desn't stretch very well. Wouldn't it be great to have both? Many guitars are and basses are midi equipped as well.
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Quote:
My point is that BIAB can and I believe will improve its midi capabilities. Midi will never be perfect but it can get better. With more powerful computers many of the factors discussed above will be built into software to emulate random articulations. The idea is not to ever replace live musicians but simply make it as good as possible. I am betting that PG Music will surprize us over the next few years with things we thought were impossible.
All PGMusic would need to do to improve BiaB’s midi capabilities, IMHO, would be to increase the midi resolution and add more midi ports, i.e. much like RB
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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