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Hi friends,
This is actually somewhat a take-off of my 'humanizer' post, as you'll see, and has evolved from some thoughts shared by others in previous posts (thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts in this way).
Some things I've loved about the fiddle (not to be confused with the violin : ) include the legato volume changes , certain bow techniques (bouncing the bow to create energy and an entirely different attack sound), and double stops. I've wanted to emulate some of these techniques with a guitar synth. If I wanted to make a list of things that make fiddle playing sound cool to me, I might include the following:
1.) timbre
2.) attack (changes based on style of playing and bow technique)
3.) decay (changes based on style of playing and bow technique)
4.) double stops
5.)'bouncing' the bow
6.) double stops (to me, sound very different on the fiddle than other instruments - not sure why)
7.) degree of 'legato' and 'stcatto' between notes - which the fiddle player varies very quickly based on the music and his intended emotional impact
8.) ....???what did I miss ??
All these techniques/playing styles mixed with selected 'hook' lines, and combined by an accomplished artist, result in a desired emotional impact and communication to the listener that cannot (yet) be easily generated by a computer (yes...I'm not accidentally trying to bring this thread into the world of automated music composition, artificial intelligence, etc.)
All that said - where would I find a 'matrix' of those playing techniques / ornaments, peculiar to the different instruments, that help distinguish the 'sound' and unique characteristics of that instrument. Also, at least with regard to fiddle - how close to you think a guitar synth can come in emulating those techniques ? For example, if I included an mp3 of one of my favorite fiddle solos - it would be interesting to have a contest to see which guitar player could program/use their guitar synth to come closes to that fiddle solo.
Lastly - what vocabulary words am I missing to more precisely convey these thoughts ? I know there must be some.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/11/13 03:30 AM.
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One book to read would be Adlers Study of orchestration.
Firstly there are tow entities
a] The 'articulations' that any instrument can achieve
b] the emulations that MIDI istruments can achieve
Its also true that only some articulations are scored for, and many articulations are instinctively tailored, buy the musician to the phrase and setting. Staccato for exampe can come in a variety of feels. Its just not true that if you have one sample for every stacatto note of a particular instrument its enough for most settindgs.
Lots of things cant be achieved in MIDI - the drool of a mouth organ or the vibrato of a reed instrument are human things and although you can get close, its going to take a lot of fiddling. You will have to convert what is insticutive and often unconscious on the part of the player to something logical and programable
Some instruments lend themselves ot MID. The piano - when hyuo hit a key after this there is nothing you can do to alter the sound - simple for MIDI - the electric guitar is quite another matter.
Other sounds are produced incidentally and go to make up the sound - such as the metalic sound of new acoustic guitar strings as the finger slide, or the clatter of keys on a sax.
A trumpet for example will sound almost like a different instrument in The Trumpet Voluntary, than in a Chet Baker solo, or even a MIles Davis solo.
Then there are mike positions, halls ....
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Quote:
Staccato for exampe can come in a variety of feels. Its just not true that if you have one sample for every stacatto note of a particular instrument its enough for most settindgs.
...now couldn't an expert musician, in fiddle for example, and also well-versed in MIDI and sound design, program a set of parameter changes that can more closely emulate those variations in legato/staccato for that instrument and allow them to be controlled in a
-mod wheel
-pitch wheel
-that synt controller thing that you can move in all x-y coordinates (what's it called?)
- heck - how about something you can move in all 3 x-y-z coordinates
- a MIDI foot pedal that I can control by using my guitar
-and of course the same question for other ornamentations an
Quote:
are human things and although you can get close, its going to take a lot of fiddling. You will have to convert what is instinctive and often unconscious on the part of the player to something logical and programmable
...I think that's exactly my point - I want to do these things, but I want PG - or some other company, to provide the controllers or programming, or whatever so I can do these things with less fiddling and programming. Sure it won't be perfect and they'll be some tradeoffs - just like with the evolution of early MIDI to RealTracks - interesting regarding that evolution, it went purely digital (e.g. MIDI), and after years and years of experience and frustration, came back to (almost) totally analog...hence my old adage "the pendulum swings"
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In my opinion (especially where strings are concerned) the best way to get the various sounds an instrument can make is to use more than one patch.
The upper banks of most synths include a variety of patches (eg. for strings) that include all the techniques and possibilities. You just have to string 'em together as the song requires.
I have discovered NO technique for making the same patch sound like long slow bowing in one section of the song, short-bowed energetic playing in another and plucking in yet another. It's one of the peculiarities of sampled sound.
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Quote:
I want to do these things, but I want PG - or some other company, to provide the controllers or programming, or whatever so I can do these things with less fiddling and programming.
presuming all of what you're asking for in this and other such posts exists, what are you're minimum requirements for, comment on each please
music theory knowledge
instrument proficiency for the instrument you will be using to controll the device or software and the instrument sound you want to produce
performance proficiency
computer usage basic knowledge and music production proficiency
for a person using this dream system
Last edited by pghboemike; 01/11/13 05:41 AM.
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit 16GB RAM\2018 13” MacBook Air casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
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biab & realband 2023 everything pk both with Current builds
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Joe, another book that will answer a lot of your questions is “Acoustic and midi orchestration for the contemporary composer” by Andrea Perjolo and Richard DeRosa. It is available at Amazon. This is an excellent book and a must have for midi users. Quote:
I want to do these things, but I want PG - or some other company, to provide the controllers or programming, or whatever so I can do these things with less fiddling and programming.
What you are asking for here is available on most all of the non-GM soft synths like Kontakt, B4II, etc. It may be a on some GM soft synths, don’t know. You will need a midi keyboard controller and you assign each programmable option in the soft synth to a controller, be it a fader, knob, wheel etc. Then you can change things in real time. It is much better and faster than drawing in articulations.
This feature is also available on a lot of hard synths also. The controllers are built into the keyboard.
I hope this helps.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Listen to guitarist Phil Keaggy's use of the E-Bow for examples of violin-like articulation, particularly attacks, and arpeggios along the fingerboard, another important component of emulating the instrument. You can accomplish the attacks and decays with a volume pedal, but the E-Bow, which has been out of production for years, is still useful. You can sometimes find them on ebay.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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By far the most important part of being able to create convincing MIDI tracks of other instruments is simply to do enough reference listening to said instrument such that you gain the all-important ability to know when what you are hearing from what you have created is outside the envelope of reality.
Knowing the technical terminologies is handy, but not actually essential to the process.
But knowing that what you've created doesn't sound like something a fiddle can do at bars 5 thru 7 is what it takes.
Sometimes the real fiddle can do all sorts of things that the MIDI patch and synth cannot emulate well.
Avoid those things, as attempts to emulate them using more than perhaps a few controller additions and getting nowhere are not likely to improve things.
Use of MIDI is use of ILLUSION.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Then don't do that!"
Do something else instead.
--Mac
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