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I thought this an interesting topic - in a response to Mac on another thread, I wrote:

Quote:

Although I'm by no means a purist, I'm debating how much recorded music I want to trigger, vs. playing it all myself. I sometimes feel a little cheated when I go to hear someone play, and they're playing to backing tracks. I just feel like some of the excitement of live performance is lost. As the artist (that I plan to become...), I'd like EACH SINGLE NOTE THAT I MAKE DURING A LIVE PERFORMANCE TO BE INITIATED DISCRETELY BY MY PHYSICAL BODY. Hence my question about triggering drum sounds with my foot tapping. I don't mind if the sounds are generated by MIDI in the most sophisticated way, as long as I am triggering each SINGLE note myself. This is where I plan to draw the line.





I'm not judging those that use backing tracks as a necessity to perform fuller arrangements live given the difficulty in finding other musicians, or making the gig an economic success. I believe it makes sense to use the backing tracks for certain types of gigs - a full band often sounds better than a single musician, and the output is more exciting to, for example, an audience that wants to dance to their favorite pop or dance hits.

I'm currently making detailed plans for the live performances I'll be giving some day (I've been making these plans for 20 years, and cannot at this moment play a song all the way through - but I like making the plans ). This might be the year it happens, and I'm of course setting the parameters of my future performance.

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When it stops being entertaining to the audience.

David Bowie can get away with triggering a ton of stuff, because his stage presence orverrides the rest of the show.

I, on the other hand, need 4 other guys on stage with me to fit in. Then, when there is enough going on visually and musically I don't worry about how much I plan to trigger as long as there is something entertaining going on.


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It depends on your goal. If you are driven by dollar signs and want every dime you can make for yourself, then do a solo with ALL recorded tracks. There is a band here in my area that plays with more backing track than not, and the catch ALL kinds of grief from the viewing public for it. But when venues won't pay more than $200 a night for a band, the less times you have to split that $200.....

I went to see them once. I do better in my attic alone than they do with 4 people and a computer. I watched a guitar player fake a solo by turning his volume off and "air guitar" to a recorded solo, and I watched 3 guys fake singing. Apparently they bot only record music, they bring someone in to sing. They will burn out quickly as people catch on and realize that they are less than average skill level players, but as long as they have friends they will appear to draw. They are an example of where it IS more like karaoke than live. On the other hand, there is a band who uses backing tracks selectively on 4-5 songs per night but they do it WITH a keyboard player and not instead of as that first band of wannabe players does.

I find it funny how people interchange the terms "playing with backup tracks" and "triggering" depending on whether they like the band or not. One guy I know who speaks loudly against bands "playing with backing tapes" has no problem with with 1/3 of Rush's live show being "triggered". But this is a guy who took out a $1500 loan last year so his 5 member family could go see Rush (again), buy t-shirts, have a dinner at an expensive place downtown.... but it was okay with him to hear "triggered" tracks.

My take is that if you do use backing tracks, say so rather than trying to fool your audience. When there is only one of you up there singing 4 part harmony, they will probably figure it out. Still comes back to dollars. Players want harmony and/or a bigger sound but won't share the fee.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Quote:

If you are driven by dollar signs and want every dime you can make for yourself, then do a solo with ALL recorded tracks.





There are people that take that to the next level. They're called DJ's, and they have changed the business of music forever : )

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Quote:

I watched a guitar player fake a solo by turning his volume off and "air guitar" to a recorded solo, and I watched 3 guys fake singing. Apparently they bot only record music, they bring someone in to sing. They will burn out quickly as people catch on and realize that they are less than average skill level players, but as long as they have friends they will appear to draw.





I will say there was one pop group that I liked, that apparently didn't do much of their own singing in performances at all, though they did dance really well and look the part really well. It was "Milli Vannilli" (or something like that)...remember "Girl you know it's true..." yada yada. Unfortunately, this story didn't have a happy ending for one of the members. But I thought their pop songs were really good.

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Joe, BiaB is such a useful program for quite a few different uses, quite often is the case where other users can get myopic about the intended use, not always a fault either if the OP hasn't stated what their exact idea of use is supposed to be, well, we will jump in there and offer advice that may apply to one of the other aspects of the program. Such as making Recordings rather than Live use.

When I played live gigs using BiaB as the other two members of my Virtual Jazz Trio, I made sure to also prepare some songs to play that were just me, by myself. Some had vocals, others were unaccompanied Ballads, a couple unaccompanied Show Tunes in a sort of medley, a handful of pop songs that lended themselves to that kind of performance, etc.

Interspersing those with the backing tracks songs made the statement that the performer was not dependent on having to use backing tracks to play and entertain, plus relieved the monotony as well.

The idea of footpedal for drum is rather intriguing, if the performer can pull it off well, why ot have a go at it? I would want to avoid the "one man band" appearance, though, as if such was not used tastefully and well it could easily begin to take on the appearance of the old time one man band act with electronic footpedal substituted for bass drum and hihat.

Audience perception of BiaB use can indeed be disappointing in the sense that most will not take the time to understand the concept of "autoaccompaniment" software that plays a slightly different performance each time it is loaded and Play button is hit. Which is why I prefer using BiaB for accompaniment rather than a fixed sequence that is identical eery time. Others around here want the fixed accompaniment and therefore use static performance files worked up in RB, PT or one of the many other great DAW sequencing softwares and that suits and serves their act well.

Developing YOUR act along the parameters of what YOU desire to do, tempered well with the self-policing aspect that filters out what doesn't work well or present well by changing things that don't work, adding things that do, etc. is what I think you are after here. And that's not a bad thing at all.


--Mac

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Quote:

They're called DJ's, and they have changed the business of music forever : )




DJs aren't musicians. We are talking about musicians.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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a lot of these objections are because of people using backing tracks to escape the necessity of playing an instrument. But some musicians use tracks so they can have freedom to play MORE instruments.

I met yesterday with a very accomplished local musician. He's tired of working with undependable band mates. He's tired of having to be the only solo and rhythm instrument in a 3 man band, so that every song starts to sound the same, and the bottom drops out when he plays a solo. He plays several other instruments, but there is no way for him to showcase his other talents, and it's making him feel trapped.

He has finally come to the conclusion that the only thing that will liberate him musically and let him book gigs where he can play a variety of instruments without the bottom dropping out of the song is by using backing tracks. That way he doesn't have to find a band that is talented enough to play in multiple genres but won't cut a trail as soon as a better gig comes up.

The bane of the musician's life is spending months preparing a tight, great sounding set, only to have one of the band members quit. That problem alone is enough to point me in the direction of backing tracks. After all that preparation, I want the receive the payoff, not a big disappointment

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Quote:

When it stops being entertaining to the audience.




I think rharv is exactly right. After all, that's what the show is all about.

Personally, I like to go out with an all live band, but if you can get the same results with backing tracks then you'll always get more gigs. This is the real world.

ROG.

Last edited by ROG; 12/30/12 09:37 AM.
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Lotsa folks in our fallen generation have posted lotsa flames at me over the years for the following statement, but it is the truth as I know it and I'll always stand by it:

"Work hard to develop the ability to entertain people all by yourself using only your chosen instrument."

The "chosen instrument" may include the voice as well as a melodic instrument such as guitar, keyboard, etc.

If you can't hold an audience like that, don't make the mistake of thinking that you can add *anything* to it in an attempt to cover it up, no matter whether the added thing is other live musicians, backing tracks, autoaccompaniment softwares or whatever.

Audio is additive.

ONE WHO IS GOOD IN PERFORMANCE = GOOD PERFORMANCE

TWO WHO ARE GOOD IN PERFORMANCE = GOOD PERFORMANCE

ONE WHO IS NOT GOOD IN PERFORMANCE + ONE WHO IS GOOD = BAD PERFORMANCE

ONE WHO IS NOT GOOD IN PERFORMANCE + TWO WHO ARE GOOD = BAD PERFORMANCE


ETC.

If what I say makes you angry, look within.


--Mac

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Simple economics. You can't make a living with a band; you can as a single or duo.



Regards,


Bob

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Quote:

He's tired of having to be the only solo and rhythm instrument in a 3 man band, so that every song starts to sound the same, and the bottom drops out when he plays a solo.




Then hire a keyboard player who can sing and play as a 4 piece.

You make my point for me. They care more about making $15 more per guy than sounding anything close to good?


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Quote:


They care more about making $15 more per guy than sounding anything close to good?





That's why I'm glad I chose a career where I don't have to worry about that type of thing. Perhaps they care more about paying their rent than being out in the cold.

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Quote:

Personally, I like to go out with an all live band, but ..




Me too, if you read my post I feel like I need another 4 guys out there to make the show entertaining (ie a live band).
But that doesn't mean we don't 'trigger' things.

I trigger all kinds of things, from guitar processor patch changes, to synth patch changes, sysex messages for delay on vocals, lights (MIDI-DMX) ... whatever helps with the show.
But I don't replace the show with triggered items.

So the question was 'when do you draw the line?'
As long as the band is still the show, trigger whatever you want.


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Quote:

Quote:

He's tired of having to be the only solo and rhythm instrument in a 3 man band, so that every song starts to sound the same, and the bottom drops out when he plays a solo.




Then hire a keyboard player who can sing and play as a 4 piece.

You make my point for me. They care more about making $15 more per guy than sounding anything close to good?




1) True, that's one of many options. But adding a keyboard might allow 2 more songs before it gets redundant

2) this guy sounds VERY good, I thought I had made that clear in the original post if you even read it before replying. He could sound even better, but he can't assemble a band capable of backing him appropriately and sustainably. And this guy is well known locally to the point that he would have no trouble hand picking his band mates. Yet... he's looking at trax...

3) Making $15 more per guy becomes very important when you are supporting a family, not just pursuing career masturbation

4) You are trying to project what's important to YOU onto another artist. It is the nature of art to be presented with whatever interpretation pleases the artist, including the number of people required to make the presentation. Then its up to the audience to accept it or reject it. You can't be commercially successful no matter HOW many people are in your band if the the audience doesn't like what you present to them.

5) NO presentation pleases everybody. Every presentation, done well, please somebody. Therefore, choose the presentation method that meets the most of your personal, artistic and financial requirements. For some of us, that's backing tracks. For others, it's a full band. There isn't one "right" way to present music to an audience.


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Quote:

(2) this guy sounds VERY good
(3) Making $15 more per guy becomes very important when you are supporting a family




You said he was tired of playing in a 3 piece. Well, adding another guy would make it a 4 piece, wouldn't it? How would adding a piece who can add piano, organ, strings, horns, background vocals and another player who can solo become redundant after a couple of songs?

If they are making a living supporting a family in a 3 piece band, they better be ZZ Top or Rush.

No matter who the guitar player is and how good he is, if the solo falls on him every song, it is boring. With no rhythm instrument, it sounds empty. We have all been around this long enough to know that. ZZ Top in the studio and ZZ Top live are 2 different bands when you strip out the overdubs that they can do in the studio but not live.

The key is that you stated that he was tired of playing in a 3 piece. Well, then don't. A great guitar player, as you describe him to be, will be in demand for a better band who works more and gets bigger money. Is he happy sitting where he is? You said no.

Remember, being the best you know doesn't make anybody great. The best guitar player I know plays nationally (with Taylor Swift) but there are probably still better. I just don't know them. There may be a guy in a cabin in Oregon that blows Paul away.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Quote:

The key is that you stated that he was tired of playing in a 3 piece.



actually, that was probably the least significant observation in the post, but it's the one you decided to respond to

The key point is that for a sufficiently talented musician, the limitations imposed by a live band may be unacceptable, and the shortest route from point A (disappointment) to point B (ideological actualization) may include the use of backing tracks for some people. The freedom to get whatever backing showcases a variety of talents, and hit the mark every singe time without worrying about your band leaving after you get the songs nailed can make the difference between a sustainable act and one that's temporary and a waste of months of your life that you can never get back.

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Mac, you make a great point (as usual!) I am currently reading mixerman's book, Zen and the Art of Mixing, and he made a similar comment that a great song is recognizable as a great song even with one guy/one guitar!

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I am curious as to the genres and locations where playing with backing tracks is deemed to be acceptable? I have listened to local bands and performers in towns like Chicago, San Francisco and Louisville, and in all my years have only seen one guy using backing tracks. And that one guy was playing in a very small bar, in a very small community and we were not paying any cover.

In my experience it seems there are plenty of good performers and full bands competing for the gigs so I don't see how someone with backing tracks could compete. But maybe I just have a very limited perspective due to genre and locations.

Personally, I would prefer to hear only live performances unless it is dance music and then a DJ would be fine! I think it would not be considered a good marketing point to advertise your gig and state that it will be one guy and pre-recorded or computer-generated accompaniment. Does anyone actually promote this as a benefit?

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Quote:

I am curious as to the genres and locations where playing with backing tracks is deemed to be acceptable?



I'm taking small venues and the classic starving artist. Restaurants, private clubs etc where no cover is charged. There are enough places like that in most towns for a good musician with trax to play 6 nights a week if he wants to.
Quote:

ONE WHO IS GOOD IN PERFORMANCE = GOOD PERFORMANCE




I have seen people playing with trax that were just AWFUL... the trax were poorly made, no dynamics or excitement there... they didn't use the advantage of mixing it up, so every song sounded the same (Mostly 3 chord blues) and the performance itself was as enthusiastic and inspired as if his job were washing the dishes instead of providing the entertainment.

But turn the trax over to a consummate entertainer like Notes Norton who schmoozes the crowd, pays amazing solos on a variety of instruments, and generally goes the extra mile to leave the crowd feeling entertained... and his presence looms so large in the room, the crowd barely notices the trax.

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