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Forum Moderators: If this post violates forum policy or if you feel it does not meet the goals of the forum please feel free to remove this post from the forum. Step onto the soapbox and clear voice: I belong to several forums dedicated to fixing or extending the life of the electronic stuff we all collect, use and dispose of when the stuff quits working. I have read many forum postings of users describing audio interfaces, media players or other electronic things that have been abandoned for whatever reason. A campaign is underway to pass legislation at both the state and federal levels to make manufacturers provide the public with the same resources (videos, replacement parts, service manuals, illustrated part breakdowns, etc.) that are typically provided to repair service centers. If you are interested in learning more, please click on ++ THIS ++ link and ++ THIS ++ link. Thank you for reading this and PG Music for allowing me the opportunity to share this information with you. Step off of soapbox.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 02/04/17 09:19 AM. Reason: Added 2nd link
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I agree with the concept but I can see a problem. That is when electronic companies make the schematics and parts available will they be exposing some of their patented ideas? Don't know.
But regardless I am all for the right to repair and I hope that it becomes a national law.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Hi
I do agree but these days it is a problem
With SMT surface mounted components to fix thing down to component level ,gone are the days when you could solder in a new resistor etc you now need thousands of pounds worth of reflow equipment .
So such repairs would be down to board swapping and therefore relatively expensive.
You can get SMT rework hot air solder tools but I would not care to use on an expensive say processor.
Having said that I too do what I can if spares and schematics are available.
I have been in Electronics since the days of building crystal sets and valve triode voltage controlled oscillators for keyboards long before semiconductors and chips where even thought of.
Ah the good old days
Good luck
Mike
BIAB2021 UltraPlus,AsusN55S1Tbssd, W10/64,Akai EIEpro Yamaha CVP405,SquireStrat, CoolsoftVMidSynth Novatation Impulse61 Ctr kbd, Cwalk blab Kontakt http://mikesmusic.byethost16.com/
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<< "... I can see a problem. That is when electronic companies make the schematics and parts available will they be exposing some of their patented ideas? Don't know." >>
The bottom line is that repairability is a case by case basis.
Most of their patents will be hidden inside of proprietary chips and a schematic will only show a box/triangle with pin outs. Chips are not user serviceable and have to be replaced as a single unit. Schematics with proprietary circuits are usually brackets around a blank area with text that unit has to return to the factory but provide a shop or service center with details of supporting circuits and test points.
Regarding SMT component repairs, Mike is correct at the repair shop level where it is a daily chore and a warranty on a repair may be an issue. SMT components are user serviceable in many cases and techniques are available to the repair hobbyist doing occasional repairs on their own equipment. Equipment is not that expensive at that level and of course, not every SMT component will be successfully replaceable.
While schematics are desirable, they are not entirely necessary. A service manual and block diagram many times will suffice. If a service manual or block diagram is not available, a technician can troubleshoot a board by ID'ing the major chips with data sheets.
Getting replacement chips can be a problem but many failures are minor issues that can be repaired without having to deal with the major chips. Cold solder joints are a major and significant failure point in today's electronic panels that can be repaired with no parts having to be replaced. Very common issue. Voltage spikes are also very common causes of equipment failure and usually contained to the power supply circuit. These components are usually not SMT, and also not normally any type of proprietary component but rather easily obtainable common components.
Power supply circuits many times have circuitry designed for voltage protection such as fuses, inductors and Mov's. These are designed to fail quickly during a voltage spike or surge and are easily replaceable
Some components on a board are simply SMT versions of common chips. 555's and 386's, and common op amps such as 741 and many others are found. Since you are working on your own equipment, many times these type chips can be replaced with regular chips rather than SMT units. It's not always an option for a variety of reasons but more times than not it is possible in my experience.
To rely on government legislation to provide resources (videos, replacement parts, service manuals, illustrated parts breakdowns, etc.) that are typically provided to repair service centers is rarely likely to be a benefit to the consumer in its final version. In the long run, it may turn out to be more restrictive than beneficial.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Forum Moderators: If this post violates forum policy or if you feel it does not meet the goals of the forum please feel free to remove this post from the forum. Step onto the soapbox and clear voice: I belong to several forums dedicated to fixing or extending the life of the electronic stuff we all collect, use and dispose of when the stuff quits working. I have read many forum postings of users describing audio interfaces, media players or other electronic things that have been abandoned for whatever reason. A campaign is underway to pass legislation at both the state and federal levels to make manufacturers provide the public with the same resources (videos, replacement parts, service manuals, illustrated part breakdowns, etc.) that are typically provided to repair service centers. If you are interested in learning more, please click on ++ THIS ++ link and ++ THIS ++ link. Thank you for reading this and PG Music for allowing me the opportunity to share this information with you. Step off of soapbox. Why stop at repair information for electronics? We need the same for cars, lawn mowers, sex toys, RV's, appliances, houses, lazyboy furniture, soapboxes, etc etc. Just think of the job creation for lawyers and bureaucrats. Tony
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For ALL the reasons Charlie mentioned, and without even getting into why I do not want the government involved (you, we, all, all ready rely way too much on the government to wipe our noses now - we don’t need more)
Would this new regulation require manufactures (mfg's) to stock more (TBD how many) parts (as well as videos, TX materials, documents, etc.), for the out years because, besides their standard supply chain projections, they now have to project some unknown percent of end-item consumers (read: us) that will demand, at some indeterminate future point in time, access to these parts ?
What percentage (of users and of parts)? For how long must they stock them? How much additional storage space do these mfg's now need for the sum total of these parts? How long do they need to keep sub-contractor and other parts supplier contracts open for the production of specialized, but (now) otherwise obsolete chips, parts, etc.
And scores and scores of similar questions.
Because of the need to keep (for some TBD length of time) extra (possibly never needed) parts, contracts, suppliers, storage, etc. on hand - ALL of that adds overhead and cost thus adding to cost of the end-item - which we'd all complain about; there is no reason the mfg should "absorb" this additional cost - (OWS production (no)knowledgeable and economic mental midgets aside).
Last edited by Larry Kehl; 02/04/17 03:54 PM.
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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I would imagine such a regulation would first require a manufacturer to declare a product to be discontinued and no longer supported. Perhaps then they could open up the support info to the public. But Mario's caution about revealing proprietary info still holds, and I wouldn't be surprised if companies dropped official support on products even faster as a result.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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At about the time I was learning electronics.... in a tech school teaching TV and Radio repair..... the industry was moving from discrete, field replaceable components, towards board swapping.
Now, we have software running everything from the computers, phones, and TV's to cars, refrigerators, coffee makers and toasters.
I saw sometime back, that one of the car makers was suing to keep people from being shade tree mechanics claiming that self repairs were a violation and infringement of their software copyright or some such garbage.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I would imagine such a regulation would first require a manufacturer to declare a product to be discontinued and no longer supported. Perhaps then they could open up the support info to the public. But Mario's caution about revealing proprietary info still holds, and I wouldn't be surprised if companies dropped official support on products even faster as a result. If companies announced that they were going to maximize profits by dropping support for their products, people would freak out, demonize them and jump ship. But if they started a grass roots movement encouraging people to "fight for the right" to absorb the responsibility of fixing their own purchases, they would be seen as benefactors to the people, and praised when they finally admitted "defeat" and turned the reins over to their customers. I see a movie plot here. ;-)
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I agree with the concept but I can see a problem. That is when electronic companies make the schematics and parts available will they be exposing some of their patented ideas? Don't know.
But regardless I am all for the right to repair and I hope that it becomes a national law. That's easy and accounted for in legislation submitted to date. If something is patented, patent protection still applies.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Why stop at repair information for electronics? We need the same for cars, lawn mowers, sex toys, RV's, appliances, houses, lazyboy furniture, soapboxes, etc etc. Just think of the job creation for lawyers and bureaucrats. Tony The legislation would apply to mechanical devices as well as electronic devices. In fact, automotive repair is given as an example. A law in one state forced automakers to make service information available to anyone willing to pay for it. That is now true nationwide in the US.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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For ALL the reasons Charlie mentioned, and without even getting into why I do not want the government involved (you, we, all, all ready rely way too much on the government to wipe our noses now - we don’t need more)
Would this new regulation require manufactures (mfg's) to stock more (TBD how many) parts (as well as videos, TX materials, documents, etc.), for the out years because, besides their standard supply chain projections, they now have to project some unknown percent of end-item consumers (read: us) that will demand, at some indeterminate future point in time, access to these parts ?
What percentage (of users and of parts)? For how long must they stock them? How much additional storage space do these mfg's now need for the sum total of these parts? How long do they need to keep sub-contractor and other parts supplier contracts open for the production of specialized, but (now) otherwise obsolete chips, parts, etc.
And scores and scores of similar questions.
Because of the need to keep (for some TBD length of time) extra (possibly never needed) parts, contracts, suppliers, storage, etc. on hand - ALL of that adds overhead and cost thus adding to cost of the end-item - which we'd all complain about; there is no reason the mfg should "absorb" this additional cost - (OWS production (no)knowledgeable and economic mental midgets aside). Manufacturers would still do business as they currently do. Consumers would still purchase from retailers and distributors as they currently do. The difference is if a consumer approaches a business entity to obtain product parts or information the entity doesn't have to worry about the manufacturer punishing the business entity.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I wish I had saved every "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" stickers I've removed. I should make a T-Shirt like that.
But, I'd have to vote against legislation such as this. I tear my jeans and Levi Straus should not have to give me sewing lesson.
However, I do agree with OBD, OBD11, and CAN as it prevents auto manufactures from using proprietary diagnostic and service techniques for emission/polution control repair jobs.
Perhaps most of the things we purchase, say, a TV, cell phone, computer, wah pedal are sold as a unit, one single device. And, (I think) that's what the patent for. If "it" or part of "it" stops working then the unit is bad. The warranty agreement might give the manufacturer the option to repair or replace. After the warranty I have the option to get another, live without the product or crack it open and re-melt a few solder blobs on the PC board.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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