PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Nature or nuture? Talent runs in these famous families regardless

Here's a short list of accomplished musicians whose kids tried to emulate them
Nature or nuture? Talent runs in these famous families regardless

I've always had the opinion that it's Nature AND Nurture.

I've seen talentless musicians work very, very hard and become nothing more than great technicians, able to play the notes, but not able to breathe life into them.

I've also seen self-taught musicians who do not have great technical chops but the music just flows out of them.

Saving the best for last are the folks who can make "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" sound great but have also practiced enough to have monster technical chops.

Insights and incites by Notes

But Mr Notes, how do we know which one we are? I have a friend who has a beautiful operatic Tenor voice, but won't develop it except to wow people at parties. I can't use him live as he won't sing quietly or in any other way unless I put him behind me and let him warble over my Baritone voice. I keep telling him to have lessons etc or join an amateur operatic group or even learn the melodies. I really believe he could have song professionally, if he'd just get off his butt. He can sing in fluent Italian without even trying (grr).

Yet his comment to me was (under his breath) 'Well I must say you work very hard on your voice (given it's limitations) Remarkable persistence.'

It's a funny thing Nature or Nurture. Whilst there is some nature, I'll go with nurture for most things. Maybe I've been living in Asia for too long now!

We don't unless we nurture it.

I tried to start a band with a pianist. He graduated from a Florida University with a music degree, and could play the notes on the page with precision, but no expression. He was a great technician, and he nurtured those skills, but he wasn't a great musician. Although I really liked him as a person, after a couple of months of practice, it just didn't work out.

I know a girl who has a great operatic voice, it got her into college on a full ride, but it never went farther than that because she has bad intonation and no matter how hard she worked, she couldn't defeat that.

But I don't want to sound so negative.

I worked with a guitarist who actually got kicked out of Berklee for arguing with his teachers. Playing with him, I think he was right. He had 20 pedals in front of him, which in itself isn't impressive, but the sounds he got out of his guitar were fantastic, and the melodies that soared out of the speakers were simply hypnotic. And that end result is what matters.

As a sax player who almost made it famous, and had the pleasure of working with major stars, my friend Richard (R.I.P.) was the best guitarist I ever had the pleasure of working with. Nature plus nurture wins every time.

But sometimes nature doesn't even need nurture. Muddy Waters probably never had a formal lesson in his life, but when Alan Lomax heard him on a cotton plantation, he wanted to record him, and the rest is history.

So how do you know if you have the nature or not?

Nurture what you have and if you blossom, you have the talent, otherwise you will be a good technician.

When I was a kid, I wanted to play music. My favorite toys were the ones that made music. But my parents could not afford a real instrument or lessons.

In the 6th grade I took up "tonette" - black, plastic recorder that was offered in my elementary school. I already knew how to read simple music thanks to my music toys. I was in the tonette band, and although not a star (we played as an ensemble) I wasn't a problem either.

Then in the 7th grade, I joined the school band. The town was small and only so many instruments were available to rent, so like all the new guys, I got a pair of drumsticks and a practice pad. When the tenor sax player's family moved, I got the sax. I guess I was more enthusiastic than the other newbies when the director asked.

I started sax in beginning band, skipped intermediate band and went directly to advanced, and the next year was the first tenor in the all-county band. And the year after that the same

Then in high school I became first tenor in the all-state band, plus section leader (which goes to the first alto by default) for every year that I was in school. That officially made me the best sax player in the state school system at the time.

In solos and ensembles state contests, I never got less than the highest award (superior) for my solos.

This is not to brag. I guess I had the nature because I accelerated much faster than my peers who worked every bit as hard as I did. I can't take credit for the nature, it came from my father who played violin, trumpet, uke, and organ. He made his living as a printer though, and I never heard him play violin or trumpet. Mostly uke because that's all we could afford, and later when he retired after moving up the corporate ladder to foreman, he got an organ. Thanks dad for the talent!!!

If it was all nurture, the other students who worked just as hard as I did, and those who even worked harder, would have done the same, but most of them never even made the all-state band or would get excellent or satisfactory on their solo and ensemble contests.

Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Shostakovitch, de Falla, Respighi, and many other composers have created great works that are IMO impossible for someone without both the nature and the nurture. And how else does a Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, Jimi Hendrix, Wes Montgomery, Terry Kath, Jeff Beck and so many others blossom at an early age before they have enough hours in their entire lives to fill that proverbial 10,000 hours that is so popularly touted. At 3 hours a day of practice it takes 40 years for that to happen.

https://www.fastcodesign.com/3027564/scientists-debunk-the-myth-that-10000-hours-of-practice-makes-you-an-expert

BTW, I heard Terry Kath in a band before Chicago. I forget the name, playing in a night club close to the one we were gigging in, and his playing floored our guitarist. And I know our guitarist spent every waking hour he could practicing and pushing his limits.

Without the nature, you can never be a great musician, but you can be a great technician.

At least that's the way I see it.

Insights and incites by Notes

I think alot of what we think is nature, such as playing by ear or singing in tune can be learned. Sure, it may take some people longer than others but everyone CAN learn to do it. I thInk too many people are put off even trying when they are told “don’t give up your day job”. They start believing the story “I don’t have a musical bone in my body”. Everyone needs to be encouraged.

Not quite everyone. I have had a couple of students whom couldn't tell the difference between half steps. I would play a note then another note either a half step up or down and they couldn't tell which was which. So if you are either tone or partially tone deaf you will not be able to sing or play in tune. For the rest of us what you said is true. Practice does make perfection.

Hi Mario. I believe that the majority of people who think they are tone deaf are actually not and the percentage of people who are truely, biologically tone deaf is miniscual. There is s good article here https://www.musical-u.com/learn/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-tone-deaf-musician/

Hi Joanne. These two were actually tone deaf. Neither could tell notes that were an octave or more apart. I tried to teach them but in the end it was useless and I told the parents they were wasting their money.

I am convinced almost any able-bodied person can learn the technical skills required to play a musical instrument.

However I also am convinced that only those with the inborn talent can take those skills and produce expressive music with them (as opposed to what I call 'empty notes'.

On tone deafness. Each person has an ability to hear pitches, and they range from those who can hear a few cents to those who are truly tone deaf and everyone in between.

Whether or not this can be overcome with intelligent, systemic practice, I don't know.

My friend the opera singer who went to college on a full ride certainly practiced enough, but never overcame her handicap so she didn't make it. The teachers raved about her beautiful voice, her expression, and everything else, but couldn't teach her to hear enough to be in tune.

Notes

I have an example as well. My good friend plays sax and is the son of a very famous musician. His dad put him through college. He has good chops, great tone and tons of soul. His problem is he has almost zero rhythm, no meter at all. We've been doing duo gigs for over 20 years. I play organ mostly with him and no drums on a lot of gigs. He will do ballads like Angel Eyes or Europa and will tear it up and get great applause but I have to follow him with no tempo other than playing generally slow.

Lots of people know him and he gets quite a few gigs some of which he will use a band with drums and guitar. But he will have just the two of us do his feature ballads that everybody loves and for all the other stuff the band takes over.

In the other primary band I play with is another sax player who's also a long time friend. He's exactly the opposite, he's a big band technician with little soul but he can rock out and knows all the R&B jazzy licks. One time the first guy showed up at one of those gigs and several people knew him and we asked him to sit in. He did Georgia and I had to tell the drummer, he'll lose the tempo in places, just follow him I'll cue you. Thankfully the drummer's a pro and did great. My friend played the crap out of it with lots of long, soulful held tones and the drummer knew the standard Ray Charles ending which we did powerfully and we almost got a standing O. The other guy, the technical player was sitting off to the side with this incredible look on his face and just said wow man, that was awesome. He wasn't referring to technical chops he got caught up in the emotion of it like everybody else does who hears him play.

Guy #1 puts tons of body motion and facial expressions into his playing and it's totally genuine while guy #2 just stands there but plays good. Personally I like them both, they do their own thing well while being total opposites.

Bob

Interesting conversation! I think honestly that's it's 50/50. While anyone can learn how to play an instrument or take vocal lessons with enough dedication and time, you can't teach that 'spark' or 'passion'. That's just something you have or you don't have. You can be technically sound in all respects but be missing the one element that can make all the difference: heart.

Great conversational piece, though! Love the comments people have made from their own experiences here too.

I don't think it's talent vs. no talent, but different degrees of talent from zero to genius, with most of us somewhere on the scale in between.

I've been playing sax for a long time, I practice hard, I was considered the best sax player in the state each year I was in school, and I believe I'm definitely much better than average, but in all these years I don't have what Stan Getz had.

But that's OK with me, I have what I have and it's very, very good.

You can't teach talent, but you can teach technical skills. By learning the technical skills, you can develop your talent to it's fullest potential. And you never know how much talent you have until you do it.

With the same amount of practice, some will become as accomplished as a Stan Getz, Terry Kath, Bernard Purdie, and others will never make it past beginner stage. But most of us will find our place on that scale, and all of us will have enriched our lives by learning the technique of music.

Insights and incites by Notes

Note, we have very similar early paths. I was first chair trumpet in our high school marching band and first chair French horn in our symphonic band. I even played the trumpet in a couple of blues, soul, and rock bands. Severe asthma forced me to quit playing wind instruments and in fact it has only been the last 10-15 years that I got my full lung capacity back. So I decided to try a wind controller.

It was funny that I could improvise on the guitar but not so much on the trumpet. Weird or what? Being able to improvise as well as read music, not many guitarist could read back then - at least in our ares, got me into a wedding band. Liking the money and the clientele I stayed in wedding bands for years.

Mario, I find it easier to improvise on the sax, only because I put so many years into it. But I see the advantage of the guitar and you will understand it.

To do the same lick on the trumpet or sax, you need to know the lick in 12 different fingerings, one for each key. On the guitar, just move it to a different fret and finger it the same.

I played bass and rhythm guitar for a long time before learning lead, and it wasn't until I started playing melodies and licks on the guitar that I realized that.

We learned a song, and we modulated up a half step from C to C#. Same fingering, one fret up!!! I recall difficult times on the sax getting out of the C mode and changing the fingerings to C#, which required a brain adjustment. On the guitar it was so easy. "Hey, do you want to modulate again? And again? And again?

But if you put me in a weird key, one that I don't play in often I can improvise better on the guitar. On the sax I do better in the sharp keys because I played in guitar bands all my life. So if you put the sax in Ab, which I'm pretty rusty at, I can get by, but not do as well as I could in G or A.

Being that guitarists like E and A a lot, I'm quite comfortable in F# and B, two keys that sax players from the piano or big band based groups are uncomfortable with.

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I guess asthma and bronchitis are two different things. When I attempted to join the Air Force Band I failed the physical due to chronic bronchitis. As first chair in the all-state band for 3 years running, I figured I could make the audition, but never even got the chance.

So I went on the road in a top40 band, and the lung exercise actually cleared up the bronchitis. Later I read that they were giving chronic bronchitis patients swimming lessons because they found the slow, deep breathing helped or cured the condition.

I don't know how life would have turned out if I got in the Air Force, but it's turning out pretty nicely without it. I have no complaints.

Insights and incites by Notes