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OK so I currently mix with studio headphones, VRM box and my higher end HiFi connected to my PC and high end sound card. Do I really need to spend any more money getting some budget studio monitors? It has been recommended to me before and the reason I'm asking again is if I do need studio monitors then which ones are the most recommended for BIAB style songs? I don't do Jazz, but country and church songs. It's a hobby and nothing else but I do want to best mix possible. Looking around the Yamaha HS8 or HS80M seem to get good reviews and even the Rokit 8's although they have been described as being filtered for hip hop style music?
Love to get some feedback on what others mix with? Again being a sucker for the proper stuff I can easilty get sucked into hype and to be honest I can't afford to waste money buying stuff I don't need (who can right?).
Thanks
Paul
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...and my higher end HiFi connected to my PC and high end sound card. That's what I've always used in the home studio. I really love using the computer output thru the stereo's hifi preamp, for one thing, keeping the Tone Controls set to flat, lower the volume to normal conversational listening levels and switch on the Loudness Compensation switch and you are hearing your mix in such fashion that small anomalies will jump right out at you. But the type of SPEAKERS being driven by that high end stereo are indeed very important. The typical large woofer home stereo boxes can't really be used in the Nearfield Monitoring situation that is essential for mixing in rooms at home that have not been subjected to expensive technical acoustic treatment. Monitoring properly in the Nearfield solves the problem. Do I really need to spend any more money getting some budget studio monitors? It has been recommended to me before and the reason I'm asking again is if I do need studio monitors then which ones are the most recommended for BIAB style songs? ... If the speakers you currently have are bookshelf speakers and two-way, with 6" or 7" woofers and one tweeter, they may already be good Nearfield Monitors. If they aren't, look into Passive Nearfield Monitors for home recording and such, and power them from the second spkr switch on that home stereo. The genre of music does. not. matter. Good audio reproduction is good audio reproduction and should sound good with any properly prepared recorded medium. My Nearfield Monitors for the past 10 years or so are a set I built from particle board to Theile computer program design to fit a pair of JBL woofers and JBL titanium tweeters that I happened to have in stock at the old audio repair shop. Covered the particle board with real walnut veneer, which was likely more expensive than the entire rest of the things. They are ported at the rear, using ~2" black PVC plumbing pipe tubes, cut as per the dimensions of the Theile Alignment speaker design program. Sounds great powered by my Pioneer SA=7800 Integrated Stereo Amplifier. Do a websearch for how to properly set up the home studio Nearfield Monitors, learn about the Golden Triangle of Nearfield Monitoring, placing the Audio Desk a foot out in front of a wall, with that space behind the speakers being an important part of the acoustic situation of Nearfield Monitoring. And make sure the physical center of the speaker's front grills are dead level with your earholes when seated at the desk. --Mac
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I have a pair of M-Audio BX5's, powered studio monitors. They are reasonably priced and I've had real good luck with them....
Basic retail price at Guitar Center or Musician's Friend is about $400 but are frequently on sale for less. There is a local Guitar Center store here and I got mine there for $200, bought a second pair last Christmas for that same price so check Guitar Center or Musician's Friend they may be on sale now....
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Thanks guys for your input. I'n not able to get everything straight away, I think it will take a couple more years or longer to gradually get what I need. In the mean time I will continue to use my HiFi as monitors. I think im in the ball park when I'm mixing. I've just bought a Rode K2 mic so thats taken a big part of my non budget 
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I have been using a loaned pair of Monoprice 5-inch Powered Studio Monitor Speakers (pair) for about a month now, and can say that they are just as good as the BX5's they copy, at less than 1/2 the price with S&H when on sale. They at times drop to $135 for the pair, you just need to keep checking back. Tho Mac IS knowledgeable about such things, some speakers are not good for bass heavy stuff like HipHop, R&B...anywhere there is a lot of low end info, and these fall into that category. But for everyday pop, rock, country, etc these work well. I WILL be getting a pair of these in the future for sure!!  
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Tho Mac IS knowledgeable about such things, some speakers are not good for bass heavy stuff like HipHop, R&B...anywhere there is a lot of low end info, and these fall into that category. But for everyday pop, rock, country, etc these work well.
I have absolutely no interest in bass driven into clipping, or damaging my hearing, if that's what you mean. Hell, people who talk too loud bug me. hurts my ears. Loud concerts, earplugs or I leave. Takes too long to get my hearing back to the point where I can mix or master. And music that is played out of tune, same thing, sort of, my pitch centering gets too wide when subjected to that, so I again avoid it. Don't know why anyone would want to hear out of tune music anyway. Gives me a headache. You've no doubt heard the expression, "you are what you eat"? Well, you are what you listen to, as well. So many declare the desire to be able to write songs, compose well in a particular genre, but don't seem to realize the value of listening well and listening to Classical and Jazz musics and how that can better their writing and performance skills in other genres. --Mac
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My monitoring Speaker setup is... NAD 319 Amp (2x 125w into 8ohms) B&W 685 (Frequency Response 38Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis) Rel Stampede (100w Subwoofer) I've been looking around and I'm drawn to KRK RP8 G3 monitors or the Yamaha HS8. Ball park figure seems to be between £400 - £500 not including speaker stands. Adding monitors to my already cramped desk will be a challenge but with stands I think I could place them near both speakers as seen in the photo below. My concern is the room is not acoustically treated - it's an office/workshop first and formost (with the workbench behind my desk out of view. My desk is in the corner and one monitor will be near a corner & cover whilst the other would be near a wall. I won't know what monitors will sound like until I set them up but any thoughts on my suggestions and desk/monitor layout for mixing? Will the monitors I'm looking at give me better sound for bettwe mixing than I already have now? Here's a few pics showing my room that I record/mix from...  This is behind my desk.  2nd desk next to my desk. 
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 07:45 AM.
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I'm please with my powered KRK Rocki 5's. They are affordable and accurate. If the mix is good on them then, for me, it tends to sound good on multiple systems. FWIW, I know a lot of folks mix with well with phones but I couldn't imagine doing that. I tend to work for a live sound and I've never listened to live music with phones. I don't think I could get the soundstage I'm looking for with them.
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I'm please with my powered KRK Rocki 5's. They are affordable and accurate. If the mix is good on them then, for me, it tends to sound good on multiple systems. FWIW, I know a lot of folks mix with well with phones but I couldn't imagine doing that. I tend to work for a live sound and I've never listened to live music with phones. I don't think I could get the soundstage I'm looking for with them. When I mix with headphones through VMRbox then compare my song through my HiFi, I'm constandly tweaking trying to find a happy medium. I can get a great mix through my HiFi, it sounds natural but then I listen to the same song through VMR box it doesnt sound great. The different VRM box speaker choices and room environments makes my song sound boxy and sometimes muddy. I keep going round in circles.
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 07:53 AM.
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I'm please with my powered KRK Rocki 5's. They are affordable and accurate. If the mix is good on them then, for me, it tends to sound good on multiple systems. FWIW, I know a lot of folks mix with well with phones but I couldn't imagine doing that. Well...in all my subjectivity. After listening to about 4 different manufacturers I upgraded to Rocket 8's G2 about 2 years ago from 20+ year old JBL4410's. I'd highly recommend the KRK line. The day I got them I listened to my own CD as reference and all songs translated perfectly to the KRK's. Personally, I've never felt it necessary to mix on headphones to determine a final mix for any reason. That's my take on it. Carry on....
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Personally, I've never felt it necessary to mix on headphones to determine a final mix for any reason.
I mix on headphones because I don't want to kill my song off in front of my family who hear it over and over and over again. They still do now but partly mixing through headphones reduces the amount of times they hear a repeat of the song. Plus, I don't have a big budget, this is only my hobby 2nd to riding my motorbikes. So recording is a winter or bad weather hobby at best. 1.I see a need to mix through monitors just don't know if the difference between what I already have and say a set of KRK's will be much greater? 2.And if monitors will make a worthy improvement should I go for rear or front ported speakers considering my setup in the photos? KRK's are front ported whereas Yamaha's are rear ported. PS; The nearest store selling monitors is at least 2 hour round trip away, but the better shop with more monitors is a 4 hour round trip. Hence why I'm asking basic questions on a forum first.
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 08:03 AM.
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Personally, I use Mackie MR-5's powered speakers and a Polk audio sub. All are fed straight out of my Focusrite interface.
You are right in thinking you should use some studio monitors. They are "supposedly" flatter in their response across the frequency spectrum than stereo speakers...even the high end ones. Stereo speakers are often designed with a certain "sound signature" in mind.... more bass response, smoother mids and highs, etc.... this is determined by the electronics in the crossover and the enclosure itself.
The MR-5's I use are $300 a pair. (or there about) The sub is a Polk Audio home theater sub which I picked up at a really good price. Nothing top of the line at all.
The speakers are only one part of the sound equation. The room, it's shape, and contents, what the walls are covered with , the ceiling material, the flooring, all contribute to the sound in the room....reflections, dampening, and resonate frequencies nulls and peaks will all factor into the sound you hear, and ultimately affect the way you mix.
Before you spend any money, do yourself a favor and buy Mike Senior's book Mixing Secrets for the small studio. He starts out by discussing speakers in the 4 chapters of part 1...hearing and listening. Book is about $30 last time I looked. I have it. Great book to have on your reading list.
ARC software.... also known as Room Correction software is handy and I recommend it for the more serious folks wanting to further tune their sound and how it relates to the room. ARC actually listens to the room with a calibrated condenser mic, using test tones it generates, in the area you will be seated while mixing. It then evaluates the room and compensates by sending you a mix that is pre-adjusted for a more accurate representation of the mix. When you finish mixing, you turn off ARC and export the song and it will be more accurate. I also have ARC and use it. I need to recalibrate it and start using it more often as I have gotten a bit lazy recently.
Probably the most important thing is to learn whatever monitoring speakers you are using whether they are headphones, ear buds, stereo speakers, or the most expensive studio reference speakers. Until you learn their strengths and weaknesses and are able to compensate on the fly for those things, your mixing will not be as good as it could be.
All that said.... if you are in a situation where you can not afford to drop a couple hundred dollars on each of these solutions, there is no problem using headphones and stereo speakers until you can tackle them one by one. I'd start with some fairly decent studio monitors priced in the $300 to $500 range.
Hope this helps a bit.....and by all means get that book. It's worth it's weight in gold.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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PaulH....
Ha...I understand....but...
IMO...
I'll throw out the following.
Monitor choice is subjective and one can get good mixes on average gear.
It's a matter of knowing your monitors and your room environment and recording good tracks initially.
If a track sucks (for any number of reasons) don't think you'll just 'fix it in the mix'.
Do the the track over until it's performed well and accurately.
I think the front ported is preferable.
When doing your first mix listen through the monitors at a very low volume.
If you can barely hear the bass line then run with that for the first mix.
Burn that to a CD/mp3 (whatever) and listen to that mix in your car, on your generic stereo system and on PC speakers, and on anyone else's different system.
Take notes/compare how all systems have translated your mix. (IE: bass too loud, axe sound too thin, etc.)
Revisit the song and then decide what needs to be adjusted as you enter the 're-mix' stage.
I've never used headphones as a mixing medium.
I use headphones for tracking and then I'll solo the track and listen for any audio artifacts, bad notes/technique, etc.
I've used the process I describe above since the 70's there's no issue when I listen to my songs on headphones.
Everyone has their process and preferences so one size does not fit all.
I would just emphasize....mix at very low volume first, get to know your room/monitors.
I'll stop here and I hope I helped rather than confuse.
Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 12/16/13 08:39 AM.
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Hey chulaivet1966
Good advise, thanks. I wish forums had a "like" button like facebook!
One question, when you say "When doing your first mix listen through the monitors at a very low volume" do you mean the ones I'll end up buying or do you mean through the hifi speakers I already have in place?
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 09:10 AM.
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Hey chulaivet1966 One question, when you say "When doing your first mix listen through the monitors at a very low volume" do you mean the ones I'll end up buying or do you mean through the hifi speakers I already have in place? I'm suggesting that you use that as a mixing general rule regardless of the monitors one's using. Of course, better quality monitors is a plus but not determining for a good final mix. Again...that's about knowing how your room and monitors translate your recordings. I'd work toward getting some quality monitors if I were in your position. (that applies to microphone too) I think you will eventually get weary of average/below average 'hi-fi' monitors because they color the sound by design. The KRK 5.5" monitors would be far better than any hi-fi speakers. At normal listening volume I'd say get your vocal at about -10/-12db or so. Bring up the kick/snare gain to just below the vocals. Then bring in the lead axe/keys or whatever to about the vocal level. Then, tastefully bring up the musical condiments (so to speak) being cymbals, percussion, harmonies so they don't sonically (or, obnoxiously) step on the other tracks. Don't futz with the first mix forever because it will likely be mierda anyway...get used to it. Think of the first mix as the necessary benchmark from which to start from and listen to on other mediums. As I say, some may disagree and have different work flows/processes but I'm not chiming in as someone new to this process or mislead you. I'll guess I'm forgetting something but hope that helps. EDIT: I'd keep my monitors at the same height and position my self as part of an equilateral triangle. Should you opt for 5-6" monitors note they are near fields and won't push the same amount of air so maybe 3-4' away would be optimal after some experimentation. That's my take....carry on.....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 12/16/13 11:16 AM.
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Paul,
Looking at that photo, I think you already have a reasonable monitoring setup with the combination of phones and VRM, and the hi-fi speaker setup that you have.
I really don't think you are going to hear a marked difference in your mixing capabilities with purchase of even a pretty expensive set of monitors. Several reasons - you would need to spend quite a bit on acoustic treatment of your mix/monitor room - get the desk out of the corner, etc.
The points raised above about hi-fi speakers having a signature sound built in are true. What is also true is that your mixing space also has a similar issue with a 'signature sound' built in that you don't even know about unless you spend the time and energy and dollars to fix that. It is likely much larger of an issue than the delta between the hi-fi speakers and any set of monitors you would set in the same location.
And you will get as many opinions as to which are the 'best' monitors for your space as you will replies.
A recent edition of Electronic Musician has a reasonable guide for your question - but your existing phones/VRM MIGHT be better than purchase of any additional gear. http://www.emusician.com/gear/0769/master-class-%E2%80%93-choosing-studio-monitors/153461
Your mix you posted last week sounded great. I'm guessing you came to it mostly through phones/VRM use.
Why mix on phones? One reason is that it is a primary delivery method to most listeners these days. This was not true 30 years ago, and progressively has become more and more the 'consumption' of music over time. No, don't mix on phones exclusively - but there is much more reason to do it now than in the days when this was considered a major faux pas.
Your going round and round in circles is typical, and with the small size of your room and your choice of putting your mix location head position in a corner, is very likely what causes your muddy issue, not just the fact that you are using hi-fi speakers instead of nearfield monitors. This is a low frequency issue, and both will have similar radiation patterns for low frequency. Mids and highs are where you start to see radiation pattern differences between nearfield monitor speakers and hi-fi speakers. The laws of physics are not easily broken.
Here's the main issue with your setup that unless you can move a bunch of stuff around in that room, you will still have low frequency issues. I'm quoting from the EM article here:
"When placing your monitors, follow the manufacturer’s guide, but here are some basic suggestions. Most nearfield cabinets should be roughly five or six feet apart, and the same distance from your ears. Each speaker should be the same distance from its respective side wall, or imaging will suffer. Tweeters should be at ear height. Don’t assume that a vertically oriented speaker can be turned on its side and yield accurate results. In some cases, the tweeter must be removed and rotated 90 degrees; in other cases, the manufacturer will warn against alternate positions. Ditto for “toeing in” the speaker. Be aware of whether or not the speakers are intended to be close to a wall or not. Every time you place a speaker near a boundary, the low-frequency response will bump up. Keep the cabinets out of corners for the same reason."
That muddiness you are referring to can be traced directly, at least in part or perhaps in full, to your existing speaker placement. Putting a nice set of nearfields in the same place may not change your ability to mix properly for low frequency.
-Scott
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Hey chulaivet1966
Good advise, thanks. I wish forums had a "like" button like facebook!
One question, when you say "When doing your first mix listen through the monitors at a very low volume" do you mean the ones I'll end up buying or do you mean through the hifi speakers I already have in place? ALL speakers! X2 if using headphones. Paul, looks to me like you already have a perfectly good set of small fullrange speakers on your mixing desk. No need to buy some. All I'd recommend is that you place those two monitors such that they are both level w/your ears when seated at thw workstation, facing forward (not turning one in like that) and such that the two speakers and the top center of your head form a measured equilateral triangle. Save your money about speakers. What you've got are very likely better than all but the topshelf of recording-purposed nearfields - and might just best a few of those as well! --Mac
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Your going round and round in circles is typical, and with the small size of your room and your choice of putting your mix location head position in a corner, is very likely what causes your muddy issue, not just the fact that you are using hi-fi speakers instead of nearfield monitors.
Hi Scott The muddiness is not coming from listening to my mixes on my Stereo, that sounds great....... to a point. Even mixing with my headphones I get good results. The problem is when I switch to VRM speakers/environments. There are a couple of speaker/envirnments that always trick me into thinking I've just channelled my playback from headphones into my stereo and I keep falling for that one by lifting my headphones only to find it's coming from the VRM, such is the realistic envirnment it can create. But alot of them sound to over treated with reverb which muddies the mix imo. For example. If I select the KRK RP6 G2 in studio mode, my songs sound quite boxy. Switch back to me HiFi or even turn off VRM and you get a more direct sound which is much better. The sound from my HiFi sounds great despite being in the corner. Only wish I could raise the LH speaker to be in line with the RH speaker. On a light note, would love to try these speakers out, you may laugh at their size - they're MASSIVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWKuj-lPj44
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 12:52 PM.
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Paul, do you fully understand what VRM is doing? Because some of what it is doing is simulating the listening environment. This includes the reflection simulation for the room. What's another word for that? "REVERB"!
When you try out different 'speakers' in the VRM and some of them sound like there's too much reverb, it's because the simulation of the speaker also includes it's mid-high frequency dispersion pattern, which will interact with the virtual room. Some of the speaker models will have a wider dispersion pattern than others, which will end up with more reflections from the side walls and ceiling in some of the room simulations, than other speaker models.
The other thing that the VRM is doing over headphones, by virtue of dispersion pattern, is simulating L/R cross-mixing that you get from speakers. So, disabling the VRM absolutely will sound 'more direct'.
The comments from the EM article about speaker placement in the room and near walls are important and really shouldn't be ignored, whether or not you think your system sounds great where it is. It's all about coupling into the physics of room acoustics - and you have some issue with mixing in the corner.
The issue of the height being different for the two hi-fi speakers is easily solved mechanically to raise the left to match the right - which looks like it's probably more on-plane with your ear height than is the left speaker. Looks like you have the left one on a stand. Put something under the stand that equals the current height difference - problem solved.
You might have them toed in too much. With Hi-fi speakers, with a wider dispersion typically than nearfields - setting the toe in less steep is recommended compared to nearfields.
I would say that you are currently just a few mechanical tweaks from something that is just as good, if not better, than a budget monitor solution.
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Paul, do you fully understand what VRM is doing? O yes, I get what it's doing and it does a good job. The thing is I only use the VRM at the end of my main mixing with headphones and HiFi. So I've got accustom to the "direct" sound. So when I turn on VRM it's horrible at first until I tweak away buy my point was that I like the direct headphone and HiFi sound more than VRM for listening. I also prefer to listen to my speakers more because it's more natural on the eye. I can only take headphones for so long before fatigue. I've raised the speaker as you said and it's better. Thanks. Tell you what, recording music is so great! expensive, but such a joy non the less. It's just alittle frustrating when I'm learning slowly and by trial n error. PS; I work on the smaller computer monitor in that photo I posted up, not the big Mac in the middle, that's my toy. My PC is my workhorse hence why my speakers are where they are. If I were working from the Mac the speakers would be more central.
Last edited by PaulH; 12/16/13 03:44 PM.
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The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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