Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
#425963 08/13/17 12:01 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
The video in the URL below talks about modern pop. Around 10:50, it discusses modern mastering and compression. I know I don't have the software and skills yet to master radio-ready songs. Those of you who do this for a living need to do that and you may like it. But I am not sure I want that sound. So many great records wouldn't be the same if they were mastered this way. This includes Kind of Blue, Al Green's 1970's stuff and the 60's recordings from Stax/Volt.

I threw this out to see what others may think and what I can learn from you. Hope it stimulates discussion that helps all of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
2bSolo #425975 08/13/17 03:03 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,529
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,529
The video is more clickbait than substance.

That said, the loudness war is well documented.

In general, we tend to like what's louder, and that's what drives much of this.

I recently heard that one of the sneaky tricks of a many of VSTs is that - in addition to adding the effects "on the tin" - they also slightly increase the volume so we hear the result as "better".

If you like that modern sound, iZotope Elements is on sale for $29 until 8/14.

If you don't like that overly compressed sound, there's no need to master it that way. But if your song ever gets wide radio play (as if people still listened to the radio wink ), the station will automatically apply compression to the song anyway.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
2bSolo #425976 08/13/17 03:05 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
I thought this video was great.

One of the many reasons I love Band in a Box as a production tool (although I also play numerous instruments) is that is helps you guard against the stuff they are talking about on the video if you let it, and are careful with your mixes and effects.

For example, the Xtra styles pretty much come "pre-mixed." Listening to them, they have set the levels of the instruments about where they should go, though you can add other effects to your own taste. In the demo selections of BIAB styles, there are thousand of demos that suggest unique and interesting chord progressions. All you have to do is study them.

I use audiophile tracks, and the richness of the electric and acoustic tracks is phenomenal. Using a dynamic range meter, I can see many compositions done using BIAB audiophile achieve a dynamic range of 18 to 20, or higher, which is like Cat Stevens. You can boost the heck out of the volume and still get a respectful DR of 16 to 18. In other words there is "timbre" out the wazoo.

I spend a lot of time EQ-ing each track and then doing a final master with several high quality products on the market.

I won't name any names, but there are some people on this forum who are producing tracks in Band in a Box that are vastly superior to a lot of what you might hear on the radio, in my opinion. Vastly superior. Not just better. Way better.

People argue about "changing tastes" and all that--yada yada--but when you listen to a synth and sample driven song that is maxed out to zero with maximum compression and you check the DR on the song and see the dynamic range is 4 or 5, you just have to say a piece of crap is a piece of crap.

But is does not have to be that way. You can still create awesome music if the music is what you care about.

If you are in it for something else, you can and will produce a piece of garbage.

The happy news for BIAB users is that with BIAB, a few regular music lessons on your own instrument, and a little bit of time and patience, you CAN bring back the magic.

I know because I hear it on this forum every day.

2bSolo #426012 08/14/17 01:07 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,056
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,056
David, if you don't mind can you give some more info about the dynamic range meter you are talking about?

P.S. I also thought the video was really well done and informative. Thanks 2bsolo for posting the link!


Last edited by BlueAttitude; 08/14/17 01:51 AM. Reason: added P.S.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Dave,

It's called a TT-DR meter, you just have to google it. It used to be free now I think you have to pay. I loaded a screeshot.

I have way more expensive loudness meters but this seems to be simpler, and more accurate and dials in on what I want to know, what is the dynamic range--as in, are there enough sounds across the spectrum of timbre, bass, treble, mid-range, etc, or is it all squashed? The higher the number, the more dynamic range you have--i.e., more variance among tones along the sonic spectrum. It doesn't do anything to change the sound, it just let's you know where you are in the mix. It is very useful in that it allows you to click effects or tracks on and off to see where the "squash" is coming from so you can fix that and get back to a richer sound.

At a Dynamic Range of 3 or 4, you have that blue sound brick that is so infamous these days. To me it is noise. I can't tell what I am listening to. Hope the picture works ok.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
TT-DR Meter.png (343.97 KB, 80 downloads)
dcuny #426017 08/14/17 02:33 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 13,926
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 13,926
Originally Posted By: dcuny


If you like that modern sound, iZotope Elements is on sale for $29 until 8/14.
If you don't like that overly compressed sound, there's no need to master it that way. But if your song ever gets wide radio play (as if people still listened to the radio wink ), the station will automatically apply compression to the song anyway.


FWIW, I've used Ozone for years. IMO Ozone doesn't inherently give you a modern sound unless that's what you want. I typically use a tweaked preset called Light Cleanup and a couple "vintage" ones. They do about what an engineer would have called mastering years ago. Of course with the end stage maximizer module you can, well, maximize to your heart's content if that's ones goal. Not mine smile

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Yeah Bud,

Right on. What also frequently gets missed in these discussions is what is going in and going on before mastering. Mastering to me is minimal tweaks after a long process.

At the extreme of old school, you have guys like Tom Petty who refuse to record on anything but tape and who throw in a lot of twelve string, and carefully mic'ed drums, etc. You can expect a lot of warmth in that scenario and the "mastering" engineer doesn't have to do a lot after it is MIXED (another five hour discussion) which as we all know involves some "mastering" of each track in term of EQ, levels, etc.

BUT, if you have bad or noisy or boring tracks to begin with there is no "mastering tool" that can save you. In fact, any preset in Ozone is going to take what you have done to make things sound bad and make it sound 100 times worse.

This is a point that often gets lost in these discussions--garbage in, garbage out.

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,056
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,056
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Dave,

It's called a TT-DR meter, you just have to google it. It used to be free now I think you have to pay. I loaded a screeshot.


Thanks, David! It is still free, I downloaded it here: http://www.dynamicrange.de/es/es/download

I ran my latest song through it, dynamic range was 9 so I guess I'm not over compressing.

2bSolo #426049 08/14/17 05:51 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Every tool can be used or abused. It's ultimately up to the person with their hands on the faders or the mouse.

I use Ozone all the time and have some great dynamic range in my music. It all depends of how much you lean on the compressors and limiters. Compression, like salt, in my opinion, goes a long way so use a little bit and keep the sound from getting squashed.

In recent years, after the infamous "loudness wars", the tendency is now moving in a more reasonable direction towards less compression and a wider dynamic range.

A good way to tell how much compression you are using is to use a wave editor that lets you see the wave "picture". Often it's hard to hear the compression unless you are really familiar with what it does to the music at the higher levels. So being able to see the finished wave can be very helpful. If the wave has flat tops... looks like a brick with very little open space in the wave and almost nothing peaking out if it, you have way too much compression. You want a wave that has peaks and valleys, and open space in it.

A nice limiting compression to smooth the stray peaks is fine to use. There is always a happy medium that can be achieved but it's up to you, the engineer to find that point.

I will often "print" a wave to see where my final settings are set regarding compression and limiting.

edit: You don't always need to use compression to get something loud. One of my louder tunes is not very compressed. Remember, the final product begins with the very first track you record. Be sure to get the process right, from the beginning and you won't need very much compression at the end.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/14/17 05:53 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com

Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.

You can make excuses or you can make progress but you can't do both.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Cool Dave! 9 is great for rock and roll and blues. That is just about where is should be.

Again Dynamic Range is a different number than most people use (like the numbers -18 to -20 on a perceived loudness meter for example) but in my opinion, it is the number to watch because it tells you how you are doing texture wise.

Sounds like you are doing it right!!

BTW, the meter, also tells you if you go "over" on the loudness specs, so you can adjust. Really helpful little tool.

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635

Spot on Herb.

2bSolo #426063 08/14/17 07:44 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Heck... I heard the other day that Metallica was getting ready to reissue the album that supposedly started those loudness wars....

remastered of course.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com

Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.

You can make excuses or you can make progress but you can't do both.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,635
It's because Alice Cooper converted Dave Mustaine to Christianity and he finally saw the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwDbiajBEbk

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,297
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
It's because Alice Cooper converted Dave Mustaine to Christianity and he finally saw the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwDbiajBEbk


cool


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com

Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.

You can make excuses or you can make progress but you can't do both.
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,305
Posts731,336
Members38,410
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
DJ Jazzy Jimbob, PatSar63, danidatoad, resower, Nicholas -PG Music
38,410 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 213
Al-David 158
DC Ron 120
rsdean 120
musocity 101
dcuny 84
Today's Birthdays
Bob Hunt, C J Lane, freeman, Philsaxophone
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5