I am really angry. No updates and bugfixes since July!!!
Providing a manual, which itself is not complete, with a bad chat clone is no help.

As a customer I feel ripped off!!!!!!!

I have only seen software in such an unstable state among amateur programmers.

Melodist jukebox still doesn't work!
Some melodists play harmony voices even though disabled!!
Window handling doesn't work properly!
Instrumentalists who don't take endings into account and just keep playing!
Function-based standard paths are constantly changing!
Audio and program performance are not up to date and bad!!!!
The standard procedure for errors is to reset to factory settings? Are you serious?
Anyone who seriously expects a faulty program to work without errors when reset to the standard settings is an idiot.

Uwe,
difficult day?

BIAB is a pretty complex software, so I think it is overly optimistic to expect it to work flawlesly. I am actually surprised how stable it is. (Comparing with crashes in other software). I agree that it has quite a few bugs and strange aproaches, but I think the wise thing to do is to provide 1-2 sentence for each issue you are having with example (track that you have issues with) so people can replicate them and confirm. A lot of bugs (not all) get fixed when discussed here.

You probably know that, historically, a new upgrade is released each year around the beginning of December. An update right now makes little sense.

If you would like to seek solutions to these issues, may I suggest you start a separate post for each and give a good description. We can identify if an item is solvable now, or if it belongs as a separate request in the Wishlist. If it's a serious bug, some of us can make sure the developers know about it right away.

I agree with Rusty and Matt.
Start by proactively creating a thread for your biggest single complaint and provide sufficient detail including how you think the software should work vs how it's actually working. Folks here will work with you. Then rince & repeat with your other issues.

I have found that the better you can articulate your issue, the better folks here can help you; screen shots, like pictures, are worth a thousand words.
If they can't help you, but agree that it's a valid concern, it will certainly be brought to the attention of the developers.

He's been doing it for years, haven't you ever read it?

Your points are valid! (You'll notice no one argued against any of your specific complaints because we all suffer with them as well as many more; I guess we have a kind of BIAB Stockholm syndrome!) After more than 10 years of struggling with BIAB's bugs, GUI and documentation, I finally reached the understanding that it will always be so. Now, I use it just enough to get access to those sweet, amazing RealTracks! I avoid "advanced" features and most new features until they've had a year or two to debug them.

But in spite of the issues, I am delighted to send my money to PG Music every December because the RealTracks have absolutely changed my music life!

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=97232&Number=723644#Post723644
Yes, it was a hard day.
All errors are still there!
I don't want to be a beta tester!
Cubase Pro is much more complex and gives me less headaches. That is not an excuse!
MelJoplin.st2 Melodist always plays with harmonies!
I think the melodist is not that important and doesn't care?
Windows appear in the background, not on top....
Unfortunately, I don't have the feeling that errors will be fixed quickly.
It's a real shame, but the amount of errors make working with this program a challenge that kills my creativity.

Where can we send a box of tissues?

Hi Matt,
I have already tested the advice to simply buy the next version in 2022. I bought an update to 2023 for around 300 euros and the same problems! (Cubase 13 Pro update costs 99 euros!)
At BiaB I'm only interested in the melodist to get new ideas. Unfortunately, as is well known, it is associated with a number of problems. Some, like loading a melodist in the edit area, have also been fixed. But a lot of things are still shaky.
And that after 2! years.
Hi Bass Thumper,
Thanks for your input. I thought I had already done that.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=764088&#Post764088
Hi John,
BIAB Stockholm syndrome LOL.
If PG had cared a little more about program maintenance, I would have immediately been inclined to continue supporting her!
However, all of my experiences advise me against it!
Hi Byron Dickens,
Just bring it on. send it to me via an email attached.

Your post about the Melodist is very well done. I can’t help on that particular topic; I’ve never used it. Let’s see who responds and how the thread develops.

I totally agree! I know all the fanboys on here won't like it but what if I decide to not upgrade to 2024? Are you telling me that I need to buy the next version to get fixes addressed. I probably won't go for 2024(I'm on 2023) because I'm suspicious of what kind of support I'll get in the future.
Oh, and by the way I did have a very good day today thank you very much!

I have been here for 14 years fighting to make it better and it's getting there slowly, I know only too well there are many issues but as JJJ said it's worth it just for the RealTracks.
I'll buy you 2024 and if you don't like it nothing lost.

Well, I'm sure PG will be happy with your response and no problem with that. But the way I look at it is that a relationship needs predictability. I've used BIAB for the last 6 years and what I've really liked about it is the timely fixes of issues. That's not there anymore! Obviously! It makes me suspicious that the investment in the product isn't being supported as it should be. We all do what we want and hey I love BIAB! But the relationship is being strained to say the least.

I remember when Biab/RB was released bi-annually but then they made the Mac version and a lot of time is spent on that as apple keep changing things so apps don't work anymore when they have weekly updates and upgrades. You also had the BBPlugin that uses Biab in the background so that has to be maintained when features and functions are added to the VST to communicate.
Hopefully the new BBPlugin will contain all the generate code and won't need Biab or the Biab programmers giving more time back to them to fix the main Biab issues when not working on the Mac version because of apple's screw ups. At least Biab is not totally neglectedware like RealBand.
EDIT: also there could very well be lots of time going into the 2024 version because of big changes ???

I admit, despite all the issues and shortcomings, I am a fanboy of BIAB. Simply because it does what I need it to do (for the most part) and of course yearly dosage of Rt/Rd/Midi content. But I do understand folks who are trying to use it primarely for a very focused task(s). Certainly, some items need improvement.

Well... There is option to wait until version is released and ask if a particular option was solved before upgrading, or buy the program, and if particular issue still persist, ask customer service right away for a solution. If not addressed in 29 days, ask for money back.

Wow, the anger is wild.
It's imperfect.
Some folk as far too sanguine about "progress" and others want it all & want it last year....SwingBaby was, and sometimes still is, an example of the latter.
My problem is that I don't require the program to be everything, in all places at all times so I work with what works when it arrives if it "works" for me.
The prog seems to have been BETA'd reasonably well but bugs pop up and are usually addressed fairly quickly.
As Musocity stated - it's worth it for the RealTracks alone.
He's also the sort of person who puts personal effort, skills and creativity into bringing the baby up.
I find things like the melodist pretty useless in the 1st instance - always too busy, too many notes and, realistically, it's isn't style flexible.
Then again I'm not into midi much so taking the melodist track and editing it to get something to suit me is something I could do but can't be bothered with - I just build from chord tones & extend a little bit.
I buy an update when it has the RTs I'm interested in plus some extra functionality that works for me. I've not bothered when the updates were more MIDI based and have, in that instance, bought the RT packs after the release to, again, get what I want.
The slower run of fixes does suggest something has taken priority and may be something significant.
There's nothing wrong with waiting beyond the discounted early bird deal time frame and there's not always a NEED to update.

Well said Ray, BiaB does have some bugs, but what software doesn't. let's face it this software does more than half a dozen other programs rolled into one. Does it do everything perfect. Heck no! can you name one that does? use it for what it does well and find away to do the other things until that issue is addressed.

I'm also a big, huge fan of BIAB. And yes, I also find bugs and problems, very often. But I still keep using and buying it because of all the amazing things that BIAB can do.
Now, having said all that, I wish that PG Music would take a sort of "sabbatical" year, for example, version 2025 would be:
- no new features (at all !!!)
- just bug fixes, interface improvements, streamlined workflow etc
- maybe (if possibile) new realtracks as usual, but that should NOT be the priority
- obviously, cheaper upgrade to the new "streamlined" version
One year to fix all the issues, streamline the interface, clean up everything. I would gladly pay for that.

Yep, exactly that for me too. It's just been a cluttered mess since the beginning and continues to get worse.
Better filtering to find styles and realtracks for a start. Anytime I want to find something I'm pretty much presented only with the option to click and audition from a choice of hundreds, maybe thousands of irrelevant styles. Genre categories mean little and you can't filter them, despite the menu option giving you the impression you can.
Too many unnecessary menu options etc, the list goes on. I'd do a lot more with BIAB but sometimes just can't be bothered.
Giving us more realtracks as the main update feature is not going to attract me, it will just add more to the mess.
Although, if regenerate drums is in 2024, then maybe I'll be tempted

I agree with both Jon and Lee.
I get out of BiaB as soon as I can because the menu system and the fact I can do things much easier in my DAW; remember I work with MIDI.
Unfortunately for me RTs are PGM cash cow. I believe the majority of BiaB/RB users use them, some exclusively and I find no fault with that. But they will live with BiaB/RB as it is right now because of those RTs. YMMV

100% agree with Jon and Lee

Out of curiosity when we say "RTs are PGM cash cow" does this mean the value in RTs is that they are
a. the skilled recorded output of high quality studio musicians or
b. that the software can take RTs (samples) and make them play at any tempo and over any arbitrary chord progression in a variety of styles?

If both, which of the two produces the greater "cash"?

I've always wondered about the specific element of BiaB that is unique or revolutionary.

A is a given so I vote B. B is what makes BIAB unique.

Steve, what I meant was that the majority of BiaB users like and use RTs, thus PGM will keep producing them. I don't blame PGM for doing so.

If I had to choose I would take your choice A. I don't believe that RTs can "play at any tempo". Slow them way down or up and you will get artifacts.

You're right, I should have said many tempos rather than any tempo.

I love MIDI and own a ton of VSTis BUT, the single reason I have upgraded every year since I discovered BIAB in 2012 is...wait for it...REALTRACKS! The new features rarely interest me and often frustrate me by introducing new bugs I have to work around. But those RealTracks are pure magic! If they took a year and focused on improvements with no new RealTracks I would take a pass that year.

A & B

I still love this software, and the forum...
Thanks again PGM

Just a few more thoughts on the topic.
My well-meaning "provocation" (take a year off, fix all the issues), which is unrealistic for obvious business reasons, seems to imply that one has to choose between either more features or less issues / bugs / interface complexity. Such either-or choice shouldn't be the case, obviously. In an ideal world, a great product should have the ability to offer both more features over time, and a issue-free / not overly complex user experience. Now, I think most users (including myself) are happy to be patient with this non-ideal dichotomy because we realize the incredible value that BIAB offers and the incredible complexity of the program, and we realize that the two things are somewhat correlated - if BIAB was simpler, it would be easier to make it bug-free and user-friendly, but it would not provide as much value (and viceversa). But, at the same time, the two things at some point can become anti-correlated: too much complexity may actually decrease the value of the user experience. It's a fine balance to find and maintain.
So, my little provocation came from a place of true love, obviously. Just wanted to make sure that's clear.
Now, how much of that complexity do we actually "need", and who actually "needs it", that's another problem, and it's highly subjective. As an example, I don't use BIAB for learning or for composing or for mixing (unless we're talking making rough demos, which is not really mixing). I only use it for arranging, and then I do my mixing elsewhere. But that's only me, I'm sure that many others have very different needs. So, I just wonder ... how long this ambition of being a do-it-all, satisfy-them-all software can be sustained in relation to the unavoidable developing complexity and user experience complexity? At what point that increased complexity becomes counterproductive? Where is that fine balance I was mentioning above? I don't know. Maybe more specialized versions of BIAB could be imagined? (like, a BIAB version focused on learning, a BIAB version focused on producing / arranging, a BIAB version focused on composing, etc)? I'm sure that at PG have a much better idea about the direction to take in the future. Again, all these reflections come from a place of joy and love. Thank you PG for doing what you're doing. Keep it up!!

A is about quality and is easy replicable in a number of ways so there's nothing unique about studio recorded audio. Studio recorded audio's draw for users to BIAB is the vast quantity and variety of instruments and audio.

B is singular to how the software manipulates midi and audio, and that in turn makes BIAB so loved and at the same time, so frustrating to many. The program's complexity and difficulty is what makes it unique. That complexity and difficulty is why there's such focus to getting tracks and projects out of BIAB and into a DAW where editing, comping and manipulating tracks is easier and more familiar to many users. It's why PG Music over the years has had to focus so much on DAW integration rather than internal upgrades. The complexity and difficulty is why there's such demand in the forum to make BIAB more like a DAW. Many comments in this thread focus on making the program easier (less difficult and frustrating) and having to export to a DAW (less complex).

These are all important and valuable points to consider.

The second point (above) is critically important to most users.

Very well articulated, it's a fine balance indeed.

The only 2 cents I would add (which is somewhat implied) is the competitor factor. With the rise of AI there has to be people "nipping at the heels" of BiaB with the idea to enable chord-progression-based computer assisted composition to be more general and less dependent on a finite set of styles. The large set of styles available in BiaB is certainly a great feature, but also contributes to the complexity. Artists will always be tweeking existing styles and creating new ones. At some point, keeping up with every new style while retaining the old ones will not be possible, hence the need for a more general solution to the problem of providing the maximum number of styles to the user.

I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right?

For me it's because of the chore of finding what I'm looking for. 10 styles or 10 realtracks would be easy, I'd listen to all 10 and make a choice. When it becomes 10,000 then things need to be made a lot easier. Search is irrelevant, it rarely brings up anything actually relevant because the categorisation is not only badly labelled, nothing can be properly filtered. Searching for a song title in the filter is nothing short of a joke.

The problem isn't quite as bad if I just want to choose a style and be done. The problem is refining a style, changing realtrack instruments is unnecessarily time consuming and overly complex with far too many mouse clicks required, which needs to be done repeatedly. It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered. For refining realdrums things are even worse.

I love the realtracks, the more the merrier, but without improved functionality they just add to the already cluttered mess and everything just takes longer and wears down my enthusiasm even more.
Some of the VST instruments are becoming so good that if the BIAB interface doesn't improve then I'm finding less reason to bother firing it up.

I only complain because I love the software, nothing else compares to what it does. With each upgrade I still live in hope of design improvements but it never happens, I've pretty much lost faith in it. I don't care about modern looks or dark themes, in fact I prefer the look of BIAB than all the modern trends that other software developers go for, but BIAB is just endless mouse clicks, menus and sub-menus that make no sense and everything just too unnecessarily difficult. I'm tech savvy, I use lots of software, some of it very frustrating but I alway get my head around things and put up with the bad designs and lack of common sense that seems so common in the developer world. BIAB is the only one that I often give up on and hit the exit button, it drives me to a point of insanity and too much frustration - but I really wish it didn't. If it was better designed I'd use it far more often.

Well said! Several of us have been saying this for a long time (and are often roundly criticized for daring to be critical of BIAB!) I hope PGM starts to realize there are a lot of their customers who feel this way. And you are def correct that the VSTis are becoming really good! I can already put together Bass, Drums and Keys with Toontrack products and the results sound as good as or better than what I can do with RealTracks! Plus the creative process is so much more fun than with BIAB. If Toontrack adds Guitar and maybe integrate these tools a bit better you have your BIAB-killer product.

" It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered."
creativity killer.
I have shown so many ways to make things easier finding what you need.
I said about RealDrums as they all have the RealDrumCharts you should have a beat finder like EZDrummer.
A Bass finder like EZBass.
Sound matching to find a style similar to an mp3 sample song.
And so you don't end up with so many RealTracks that take ages to go through, you have 1 DI guitar like "Fender Strat Rhythm" that uses a default VST FX(or user settable) without an FX version also, this will just have many style patterns you can choose from to allow change at any bar or beat giving seamless change with no tonal difference you can also change to DI guitar like "Fender Strat Soloist" with no tonal change. Clean Electric Guitar (28) could be anything whereas the Brand and Model will tell you exactly.

Why did you mention me?

I just have some difficulty learning BIAB because I can't understand English. I have always believed that BIAB is very good.

I have to say, having a lot of styles and/or a lot of tracks (RealTracks or otherwise) is not exactly the worst kind of "complexity" to have. In fact, it's the best kind, meaning that it's good to have more options, in this case. However, it is a very good metaphor for the more general problem with the current state of BIAB. Let me explain.

Just like Musocity said, having a lot of tracks / styles is really a problem only if the search / filtering system is not helpful enough. And that is exactly where we're at now. If the had an efficient, content-aware search / filtering system, you could have a gazillion styles and tracks and you still would be able to enjoy the full benefits of such variety. But we don't. So, a thing such as "more tracks" or "more styles", which is obviously a great thing to have (and the reason many people keep upgrading every year), becomes for some (maybe many) an increasing source of frustration, because it is so time-consuming and difficult to find what you really want or need. And this is for two reasons: 1) it is objectively difficult to navigate such a wide variety of options with the current search tools 2) it becomes subjectively (psychologically) difficult to accept a sub-optimal solution, because while you search "you know" that there must be a certain track or a certain style "somewhere" in that vast ocean of possibilities that is "perfect" for your need, and more options are added, the more that feeling increases, so every year it becomes harder to stop searching and tell yourself: "ok, this is maybe not optimal at 100%, but it is good enough" (the psychologist Barry Schwartz wrote some great stuff about this phenomenon). Again, the problem is the lack of a good, efficient, content-aware search system.

Now, as I said, while I don't think that offering too many styles or tracks is the worst problem in BIAB (not even close ...), it is a good metaphor for the more general problem. What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities. This goes, really, to the very core of the problem, I think. BIAB offers too much in relation to the "navigation" tools provided. Simple as that. Add on top of that all the bugs (this morning I found a few more ... not a surprise), and you have the full picture.

Having said all that, like all of you, I can't wait to see what new RealTracks and Styles we're gonna have this year. But, frankly, I also hope to get an improved search engine (and, even more frankly, I increasingly "expect" to have that, as a paying customer: BIAB is great, but it's not cheap, let's not forget that). That would be a welcome step in the right direction - but again, that is not my main worry with BIAB at the moment; there are more basic improvements that I believe would help much more than that, but that's just my opinion of course.

Been away a while, but it's IMO not so nice to await bugfixing until there is a new PAID AGAIN version, as usual with quite a few new bugs that won't be fixed LoL.
As loyal customer for probably over 30 years i am considering not to fall for this scheme again.

I agree 100% with Jon Thomas, but IMO the point is different. I mean, is there REALLY a reason (commercially apart) to have a new version of the program each year? It seems to me that very few programs act like this, not only in the music section…we don’t know when W12 will be out, and the same applies to Cubase 14, or Mixcraft 11, or Harrison Mixbus 10 and so on. Whenever the software houses think it’s the right time for a new version, the new version is available, regardless of the month/season of the year!

I am a BIAB user since the DOS years, and I will keep on buying BIAB, but probably it would be better if PgMusic could concentrate more on solving the GUI problems, bugs and so on, AND THEN release the new version, no hurry, even next April, or July, it doesn’t really matter. We could even have a new name, such as BIAB PRO 1, this way meaning that the PRO 2 version would be released when it is ready, no mandatory relation to December!

Sorry for my English

Alfredo

> What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities

We are hoping to address that with years release. Hopefully this will be what you’re looking for. There have been lots of great suggestions, from those in this thread and on the forum, and we hope that we have incorporated many of them.

That sounds like a spoiler alert!

Thank you Peter, that is very nice to hear. And it is also very nice to see that PG Music takes feedback, opinions and suggestions, even when given in the form of complaint or criticism, in such a constructive way. That's another thing that makes PGM special. Now, however, you have set high expectations .... :-)

thanks again

Peter, I'd like to say that you and your team have produced a fantastic product that not only has taught me much about music but has allowed me to write songs that I wouldn't otherwise be able to write. And I too thank you for acknowledging user feedback.

I trust in your continued investment in your staff to stay at least 3 steps ahead of your nearest competitor.

Keep up the good work