BIAB Can't Change Octaves - PG Music Forums

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First, I'm not bashing anyone here. I've gotten a lot of very good information from this forum and in fact, were it not for this forum I'd have quit using BIAB long ago. So, please don't take the following clarification as finger-pointing or complaining. I just thought that this information was important enough that all users should come to understand that apparently, according to PG Music, this certain feature doesn't exist in BIAB although several users here believed that it did (or misinterpreted the questions being posted).

I wish to clarify a question that I've had recently along with the solutions that users thought would be the answer to the problem I was describing. Since over the course of several days (or maybe even weeks), none of the suggestions was working, I contacted support at PG. Note that at one point or another, I would test the suggested methods posted here in the forum and sometimes these suggestions seemed like they would work -- in the end though, the suggestion would not perform as intended although initially it might have seemed like it was going to work.

A few different times I've posted here in the forum about BIAB not being able to take a selected range of measures and change them up or down an octave all at one time (without changing the key). Simply put, I got tired of manually changing each note, one at a time in editable notation mode -- I'm a comeback trumpet player of 30+ years and I can't hit double C's or even a comfortable-A right now. To remedy this so I could play the songs, I would have to go into editable notation mode and then, one note at a time, change the offending highs to something more suitable for me. Problem is, I didn't intend to change the entire song, just the measures where the notes were too high. I also didn't want to change key since the problem would still exist at the low end instead of the high. So, it occurred to me at the time that there must be a feature to do this and thus, this has been the source of my involvement with this problem. Now often I would receive suggestions that the program could in fact perform this. It appears according to PG Music however, that Band In A Box CANNOT do this but RealBand CAN. The only problem with doing it this way is that once the pitch has been changed in RealBand, the song can no longer be used in BIAB!

As for my posts here in the forum, each time I posted about it I would get a suggested solution which would almost always included wording like, "... transpose ...". Finally, when things were still not working for me, I again posted my problem only this time rephrasing the question so hopefully I would be making sure that everyone understood that I did not want to change the key of the song -- only the tone of it. And obviously, I did not want to use the Edit + Transpose feature in BIAB because that would mean changing the key and this was unacceptable.

So, this week I sent off an email to PG Music support describing the problem. Here is what they said:

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Hello Russell,

I'm sorry but I wasn't able to find a way to do what you're trying to do in Band in a Box- the transposition changes affect the entire song, and you're right in that the transpose will not work for just a few bars. However, it's pretty easy to do this in RealBand (open the Band in a Box song in RealBand, select a region of the MIDI Track, and Edit > Pitch Transpose MIDI Music) ; the only problem is that once you make the transposition in RealBand you can only use it in RealBand.

Sorry that there isn't a direct solution in Band in a Box. If you need any additional support to get this going in RealBand please let us know.

Thank you,
Will
PG Music Inc.

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I hope this clarifies things for everyone about this subject. I intend on adding this pitch change feature in BIAB to the wishlist and after I've tried PG's suggestion in RB, I'll update my findings here.

Thanks sincerely, for all who took the time to research it and reply to my question.

Glad you got it sorted out, Russell. Sounds like that might be another reason for you begin experimenting with Realband

Noel

Hi, Russell -

If you use the piano roll editor (rather than the notation editor), you can easily block out a group of notes/bars/whatever, then hold the shift key down and move the whole shebang up or down as you please. You can also even control-click on discrete notes (not necessarily contiguous) and move just them in a similar manner. Give it a try.

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Hi, Russell -

If you use the piano roll editor (rather than the notation editor), you can easily block out a group of notes/bars/whatever, then hold the shift key down and move the whole shebang up or down as you please. You can also even control-click on discrete notes (not necessarily contiguous) and move just them in a similar manner. Give it a try.

This suggestion should work. Or workaround, as the case may be.

Better advice: A Trumpet player should not have to rewrite notation in order to read and play any passage down an octave. Practice doing that.

--Mac

I assume you are trying to play along with the melody or soloist track? It wouldn't make sense to lower the whole band. If indeed you are doing the S or M track then as John pointed out you can use the piano roll view.

Hello Russell,

I might be misunderstanding, but couldn't you use Melody menu | Edit Melody Track | Transpose Melody only... ?

I was waiting to hear from him. You can use the transpose melody and then choose which bars to transpose.You can also do the same with the Soloist. As I said i don't THINK he wants to transpose the whole band!

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Hi, Russell -

If you use the piano roll editor (rather than the notation editor), you can easily block out a group of notes/bars/whatever, then hold the shift key down and move the whole shebang up or down as you please. You can also even control-click on discrete notes (not necessarily contiguous) and move just them in a similar manner. Give it a try.

John,

Another user suggested the same. I do think I gave it a fair try. The documentation / manual IMHO doesn't have enough detail explaining this method. I'll be giving this another try but I agree with other users too that I need to start getting into RealBand.

Thank you for the reply!

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Glad you got it sorted out, Russell. Sounds like that might be another reason for you begin experimenting with Realband

Noel

Noel,

I agree wholeheartedly! I think that there is a "time" when one is ready to make the leap and start to focus attention on RB -- I think each person's "time" is different. Mine is obviously now.

Thanks for the post!

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Better advice: A Trumpet player should not have to rewrite notation in order to read and play any passage down an octave. Practice doing that.

Mac,

My former instructor would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. In fact, he would have scolded me if I'd have done otherwise. However, he is gone. I am still here. I'm old now -- I just want to have fun -- nothing too serious. There are other reasons that I like to use notation instead of transposing on the fly.

I'm a comeback player of 35+ years or so. I like using BIAB to create some quick section solos -- I listen and if I like it, I simulate it (generally without needing the notation in front of me). And, yes if Soloist has decided that the solo is gonna include some high C's or the like, I just transpose those down. But, more importantly what this does for me is it gives me some quick renditions based on different criteria I ask of the Soloist -- Wonderful! I get to hear how someone else would have played the same section! I especially like that trading-4's feature. When I write my own music, I like to put in a trading-X-measures as I typically play with other soloists (sax, flute, piano, etc) and takes a boring tune and spices it up -- I like! The other thing is if I don't like what Soloist has done, it's gone -- press a few buttons and do it again -- takes me all of 15 seconds to do it over and listen to the same or try another soloist. Man that is soooooo cool! Gosh I wish I'd have had this years ago.

Another thing I like to do is prepare music for my two twin nephews who play trumpet in jazz band in high school. We live 300+ miles away and I've been tutoring them for the last 3 years remotely using Hal Leonard's Smart Music Studio. It's been wonderful -- Uncle Russell looks like a genius -- I whip up multiple solos for them to practice, electronically provide them the notation, and they record their performance and I then get it back to review. Of course Mom occasionally asks for a report of their progress (maybe because she see's one of them slacking or something like that). The Smart Music Studio whips off a nice report that I email her -- the twins have never caught on in three years that Uncle Russell has been providing this information to their mother! She comes back with, "Well if you'd been practicing a little more this week, those triplets in bars 33 to 39 would sound better." You should see the look on those kids faces! Mom is by no means, musically-able and so they're stuck wondering how Mom can listen to them and come up with this stuff!

Anyhow, I appreciate your post. I agree on a technical level with your recommendation, but I'm having too much fun letting BIAB do this stuff for me and it's doing it (as far the the Solist generation goes), much better than I could given my ability at this time in my life. If you're a pro taking my money when I buy your CD's -- I expect you to transpose in concert. If I'm Russell in the comfort and privacy of my family room, BIAB gets the call!

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Hello Russell,

I might be misunderstanding, but couldn't you use Melody menu | Edit Melody Track | Transpose Melody only... ?

Yes! This does work and this is precisely what I've been searching for!

Previous to this post, I have read the manual 2+ times, I have watched every video that is available (some twice), I have communicated with no less than four different support technicians over this issue, and finally, I've posted the question here in this forum at least three times that I can remember and received several answers that always did just exactly what I did not want it to do -- I did not want to change the key of the entire song! Thankful I've got my answer? You bet ... ecstatic! But, it has taken me since February to get it.

Since I first asked for help on this I was repeatedly getting suggestions (in the forum and from support@) that I use the Edit + Transpose feature. And, as stated in several of my posts, using this will change the entire song and change the key of that song -- this is NOT what I wanted. As you can see in my original post, even technical support did not think there was a feature available to do this. As stated many times, I simply wanted to transpose a selected range of bars an octave up or down. Yes, I know this ... there is a menu selection which allows you to transpose the entire song's melody and/or soloist up or down an octave, but all along, I've been saying, "I want to transpose A SELECTED RANGE OF BARS (not the entire song), up or down one octave and WITHOUT CHANGING THE SONG KEY (do not want to do this if the key is going to be changed)."

I'm thankful that I finally ran into you and got my answer. I just wish it had come a few months sooner. Thank you ... your advice was spot on and this is exactly what I wanted to do! One complaint however ... I've found that if I'm in Editable Notation Mode and I highlight a bar or two or four or if I'm at the Chord window and I highlight a series of bars, and then I invoke your suggested method (Soloist + Edit Solo Track + Transpose Soloist Part), that the dialog box fields do not default to your highlighted selection (as many other dialog windows in BIAB do). Perhaps this was an oversight?

Anyway, again thanks to all! I'm just happy I got my answer.

I'll say this very carefully and with respect.
If you've come across a tough problem come to this Forum first and stay at it. The collective experience of the long time users is invaluable. And of course Peter, Andrew & Jeff watch this Forum as well.

Let me also say that I replied in your other thread initially. I failed to notice that you were primarily concerned with the soloist information. My mistake since you clearly mentioned the soloist part.

I was aware of the transpose function for the melodist and soloist along with the one I suggested in the main Edit menu. I guess I need to take more time to read more carefully. I have been working on a song here and was experimenting with transposing for a bridge in the song. I had the main transpose function on the brain. Glad you were able to sort it out.

Hi,

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I've found that if I'm in Editable Notation Mode and I highlight a bar or two or four or if I'm at the Chord window and I highlight a series of bars, and then I invoke your suggested method (Soloist + Edit Solo Track + Transpose Soloist Part), that the dialog box fields do not default to your highlighted selection (as many other dialog windows in BIAB do). Perhaps this was an oversight?

If you highlight bars in the Chords window, then the values DO default to the selected region. It doesn't work if you highlight a region in editable notation mode, since unlike other Edit functions (e.g. Edit | Cut), this one doesn't work on partial bars (bars/beats/ticks).

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Previous to this post, I have read the manual 2+ times, I have watched every video that is available (some twice), I have communicated with no less than four different support technicians over this issue, and finally, I've posted the question here in this forum at least three times that I can remember and received several answers that always did just exactly what I did not want it to do -- I did not want to change the key of the entire song! Thankful I've got my answer? You bet ... ecstatic! But, it has taken me since February to get it.

Russell, you have to be very specific when you describe your problem and most importantly what you're trying to do You never specified that you're a trumpet player, you're trying to transpose a part of the melody track until just recently, yesterday I think. If you see someone trying to answer the question and their answer is not exactly focused on editing the melody track only, it's up to you to clear it up and not let the thread go off in a different direction. And, the idea that you can edit the melody and soloist tracks is clearly in the manual plus, if you were to click on the word "Melody" in the very top of the main window, one of the choices is "transpose the melody". You know you're working on the melody, why wouldn't you have clicked on the melody menu first thing? If you did that but were still confused, fair enough but at least you're asking a question starting with "I'm a trumpet player, I went into the Melody menu and..."
I know this stuff can get confusing and I'm glad you got it sorted out, but this could have been answered with your very first post on the subject if you made it clear what you're trying to do and why.
On another angle, did you specify to the support people that you were only talking about transposing the melody track so you can play your trumpet part and 4 of them couldn't tell you how to go into the Melody menu? If that's true, you have a legitimate complaint to PG.

Bob

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Previous to this post, I have read the manual 2+ times, I have watched every video that is available (some twice), I have communicated with no less than four different support technicians over this issue, and finally, I've posted the question here in this forum at least three times that I can remember and received several answers that always did just exactly what I did not want it to do -- I did not want to change the key of the entire song! Thankful I've got my answer? You bet ... ecstatic! But, it has taken me since February to get it.

Russell, you have to be very specific when you describe your problem and most importantly what you're trying to do You never specified that you're a trumpet player, you're trying to transpose a part of the melody track until just recently, yesterday I think. If you see someone trying to answer the question and their answer is not exactly focused on editing the melody track only, it's up to you to clear it up and not let the thread go off in a different direction. And, the idea that you can edit the melody and soloist tracks is clearly in the manual plus, if you were to click on the word "Melody" in the very top of the main window, one of the choices is "transpose the melody". You know you're working on the melody, why wouldn't you have clicked on the melody menu first thing? If you did that but were still confused, fair enough but at least you're asking a question starting with "I'm a trumpet player, I went into the Melody menu and..."
I know this stuff can get confusing and I'm glad you got it sorted out, but this could have been answered with your very first post on the subject if you made it clear what you're trying to do and why.
On another angle, did you specify to the support people that you were only talking about transposing the melody track so you can play your trumpet part and 4 of them couldn't tell you how to go into the Melody menu? If that's true, you have a legitimate complaint to PG.

Bob

Okay, I've decided that I owe you an explanation.

Yes, by the time I'd decided to contact support I'd been chatting with them. In my first chat (which according to the tech was also looked at by other techs), they were clear as to my meaning -- to change a selected range of notes by an octave up or down. And did they know that I was a trumpet player -- no because it simply occurred to me that notation is notation and as far as I know, this information isn't dependent upon whether I'm playing piano, trumpet or guitar -- playing trumpet against one set of notation-changing circumstances would not have been any different than if I'd been playing piano -- I simply wanted to know "how-can-I-do-that" and I don't remember anyone ever asking me what type of instrument I was playing (or that it mattered to them). If I'm a musician and I would like to change a selected range of notes, it doesn't occur to me to tell you first, "I'm a trumpet player, oops I'm a piano player, no wait ... I'm a guitar player." And it really didn't matter whether or not I was changing the melody or a solo -- only the manner in which I could go about changing a range of notes -- as the only way I knew how to change individual notes up until that time was using editable notation (which I had been writing about). And, thank-you Peter for your information but in my defense, since the function of highlighting was part of editable notation, it also did not occur to me that I needed to highlight these bars via the chord window (and NOT editable notation) in order that field values default to those bar numbers. Again, the only way I knew of changing notes up until this time was with editable notation and this is where I focused my attention.

On another note, I think it's time for me to address some people about myself ... As I've also mentioned since my first very first post here, I will likely ask many stupid questions and I will likely ask them more than once sometimes. I have explained to many here that I am disabled from military service from a brain and spinal injury. As a result, I forget things very easily. Plain and simple, I forget. I have friends of mine who bought the program for me and they encouraged me to try it (to write for a ensemble that we had talked for years about). For a long time I refused because on some other internet forums I had tried to use I was referred to as, "retarded". I took things like this very seriously and didn't use the internet for a very long time -- actually I stopped playing music for a lot of years and I couldn't even teach. I only started playing again because my wife bought me a trumpet for Christmas and insisted that it would not be sent back -- it took me from Christmas day to February to work up the courage to try. Then, my wife did not want me to play it because I had a heart attack on Feb-12th (my 6th since my discharge). Anyhow, my friends came to my house with their instruments one day and I simply had no choice -- they had set up in my garage and told me if I ever wanted them to come see me again, I'd have to try. In hindsight, that was very kind of them. I love playing music but it's harder for me that it used to be. The longer I work at this the less I seem to remember.

Before my accident I had gone to school in the military and obtained degrees in English and Secondary Education. I had planned to teach some day. I also had the pleasure and memories of playing in the US Army Band and I taught music theory at local elementary and high-schools around base. After my medical discharge, I worked as a draftsman for awhile and then later in IT as a systems analyst -- I couldn't hold those jobs mostly because of memory problems (yes, it was frustrating). So, I have not worked for several years now. I have found since being on this forum that sometimes I had asked a question a week before and that it had been answered already -- I even tried the suggestion and it worked but then somehow forgot that I'd even asked it a week earlier.

So, I apologize if I did not frame my question correctly. Please also understand that a lot of what I type here is typed by my wife -- I need to have her do this sometimes. I'm getting better at this too. But regardless, the questions and answers come from me. I apologize if this question of mine has been asked before (and maybe it has even been answered before). It wasn't my intent to aggravate anyone but I'm guessing that's what has happened. That is partially the reason why I decided to just ask the tech support people (my wife thought I should do that also) because I felt they would know by routine, what questions to ask me to help me find a solution and it's not that I'm losing interest in the programs or this forum -- it's just that I lose patience easily and that is through no fault of any of you here -- it's my problem and I've got to try to work around it. It's getting easier though.

As some of you know, I just returned yesterday from a trip downstate to my nephew's wedding. I managed to play trumpet at his wedding ceremony and at his party after the wedding as well. It went well as far as I can tell and I at least partially have BIAB to thank for that as it's been a great practice aid to me. It's been inspiring for me.

Again, sorry for the mixup.

Very sorry to hear about your disability problems. There's several veterans here including me (Air Force) and you have my very sincere support. Please PM me if you have any specific questions, I'll help you if I can.
This stuff can be confusing in the best of times.

Bob

while not a veteran i do have a disAbility, legality blind, folks on these forums have been very helpful in spite of my sometimes mistyped posts or my not seeing an option they have pointed out and my having to ask for more specific direction as to where to find the option

keep on playing and using the products and ask till you get the answer you need though i don't think i have ever read a post that had too much information about the circumstances related to the question

the more information provided, even though we may think it irrelevant, the greater the chance you will get the answer quicker