Like most of you, I have all 77 midi style sets, and, while I'm not a luddite in relation to Real Tracks, I really lament the downgrading of many great midi tracks / patterns etc. I know they are still there, but everything is now oriented around RTs. Incorporating midi instruments is a pain, as they are associated with styles, and, unless you are using them regularly, there is no realistic way of remembering that, say, there is a great piano part in the "country 1 soundtrack" style on Disk 50 (there is - try it). Another example is that for me, disk 73 - the "Steely Dan" disk - was a highpoint of the midi era, with a lot of great instrumental parts which could still be very useful, assuming it was easier to find and use them (and I have been using BAIB for about 12 years so I don't thing it's lack of knowledge on my part).
There are literally hundreds of great parts, often every bit as good as RTs languishing in the midi style disks. They cover a lot of areas where RTs are thinner on the ground - like rock piano, rock electric piano, organ, strings, pads etc, and even some types of basses. They are less good in terms of acoustic and electric guitar parts, and maybe brass (although with some effort,even these can sound good).
I was wondering whether there was a way of bringing them back to life. The obvious route would be through a midi part browser, similar to the RT browser. This is something I, and others, have mentioned before.
Another option might be something like "Studio Tracks" - like "Real Tracks", but not quite the same process. These could be created by playing the midi parts (duplicating the types of progressions played by the studio musicians in creating RTs) through a good sample set / virtual instrument (like Ivory, the B4 or Lounge Lizard) and creating wav/WMA files which could be used in exactly the same way as Real Tracks (ideally through the same browser). Given that the midi parts were played by humans originally (perhaps I assume too much!), I doubt that it would be a trade descriptions issue.
I feel that this would allow years of work by Peter and his team to have a whole new lease of life.
My 2p and happy to be shot down in flames.
Brian
I use mostly RTs however there are some instruments were MIDI is fine. Piano, strings, organ. What I do is first of all in the style picker is an "edit" button. Click on that and you'll see that you can see that you can create your own categories & also your own style names as well.I have a Category for the above mentioned instruments as well as self made styles that are just kick drum.If I find a piano in some style I like I open the editor rename it, give it a description that is meaningful to me and save it in the "piano" category. These user styles will then show in the Style Picker both in RB & BIAB.This feature is real useful in RB were you can generate just a single midi instrument from a midi style.Not so useful in BIAB unless you take the time to make "Hybrid "styles of your own.I was once a Jammer user & I know folks who also have used it like that ability to choose single instruments.
Hi John
That's a nice solution - as with many things, I wish I had started doing something similar when there were about 24 built in styles and a couple of dozen add-ons, rather than several thousand BAIB ended up with!
It still raises the issue about working with midi and real tracks at the same time, with the need for hybrid styles (for example, in order to audition the midi part with the other RT parts still playing) and the balance issues posed by the considerable volume difference between most RTs and the parts played through Forte/VSC etc.
I suppose the other point is that folks like you and I (and many of the "older" forum members) used BAIB for years as Midi only and so have a good level of familiarity both with working with the midi styles and where the "good" parts are (and hence how to extract them). Not the least of the problems is that parts within midi styles are only ever labelled "Bass, Drums, Piano, Strings, Guitar", even where the piano part is actually an organ, the strings are actually a synth pad and the guitar is a horn section!
Someone coming fresh to this (the "Real Tracks Generation") would be likely to miss out on such a huge legacy of useful parts. Working with individual parts from midi styles alongside RTs is, I suspect, far from intutive, and really would require a high level of familiarity with the programme.
Brian
I have requested in the past that you be able to right click on an instrument and instead of "add RT" also have a choice of "add midi inst" and have a list of ALL the instruments available to choose from.This would be a mammoth list though I'm afraid.Then again it may not be as large as one would think first because the instruments could be grouped in categories & second I bet there's a lot of redundancy in the use of instruments through out the styles.
I agree totally about having a rethink after all the euphoria about realtracks. I did a song a few weeks ago with only realdrums and a midi style, and I think it sounded as good if not better than using realtracks.
I think what we have got used to with midi is we review a midi style without reviewing the individual parts, so many styles it would be kind of an impossible task to review all the individual parts, a lot of the midi styles are rubbish anyway so out of date, but that’s not the midi fault, just boring styles.
I am all for a picker for midi instruments so that we can all add our own favourites to it.
musiclover
Brian,
I find the midi styles can be overwhelming sometimes when I'm looking for something specific like a piano part. So thanks for a heads up on that country piano and SD. There is some great midi once you find it.
It's even harder once in realband. For example when I change styles in realband to try to search for a midi piano, I use the filter but I haven't figured out how to get more than one result. Quite frustrating so I usually do it in BIAB but when I've already moved the song to RB it would be nice to be able to more easily search midi styles there.
Fifer,
I remember the day I brought my Tyros home and plugged it into Biab. It sounded like I had a brand new band playing behind me. The hurdle with a midi style lies in the sound of your playback device. If you don't have something up-to-date, instrument sound-wise, you get frustrated with Biab, even though it is NOT Biab's fault. Thus the RT's . . . .
I agree with you 100 % about the midi styles. Some of them are better then the Real Styles or Tracks. I have overcome the "I wished this midi style was done with real instruments" by using RealBand to convert the midi part(s) to wave files in my song and THEN adding each Real Track part, if any, until I have what I want.
It all lies within our midi playback device to make "it" happen. I would encourage anyone who is using PG Software to invest in a sound module/keyboard/Vst(i)/keyboard that will have real sounding midi instrument patches.
Also, having the "Hybrid Style Maker" available to us in Biab, we can make our own midi styles with just a few mouse clicks. I would also encourage everyone who uses Biab to invest some time with the Hybrid Style Maker. The HSM is another powerful tool when it comes to customizing a midi style or making one completely from scratch.
I think the PG Team have been busy with the latest software updates and getting the RT's recorded for it. I don't think we have seen the last of the midi styles either. At least, I really hope not?
Killer Sound Module + Biab + RealBand = Makin it happen.
Trax
A big +1 on this idea.
I've been a bit frustrated lately, hoping there could be an easy way to add Midi parts in BIAB to a mostly RT song.
While the RTs are great, sometimes you're needing a different kind of part that you remember from the Midi styles. A midi part picker, similar to the RT and RD picker would be fantastic, especially if there were a way to preview it like we can now preview the RTs.
I'm sure this would require a massive amount of work for PG, but it would be a great asset to BIAB.
John
I agree with Fifer. A good MIDI file + a good sound equipment can make a very good job. It depends also of the styles and the used instruments. For ex. brass instruments parts are harder to reproduce than strings parts.
I think some early MIDI files of BIAB should need to be reviewed and enhanced to make them sound better. I did the job on some styles I often use, but it's a huge work. Some examples : add enveloppes on strings parts, mainly for attack and release of the sounds, tweak the velocity of individual notes inside a pattern - so get rid of constant velocities on parts ! - , add bass patterns when next chord goes down a 3rd like would play a real bassist, add specific /prefill fill patterns not only for drums but also for some instruments to add intensity in the groove, etc.. delete all grid drums and replace them by live drums, etc...
MIDI is not dated : see the PSR or Tyros keyboards for example, they work with MIDI files as styles.
A lot of the early midi (and, I suppose later midi) styles were written when the available playback equipment (whether hardware or software) had only one, or at most two or three velocity layers. The VSC, which was the BAIB staple for years, has, I think, one. Often older midi files often sound better, and arguably more real, on the VSC than on much better equipment. When I try playing BAIB piano parts through Sonar's bundled piano VST, they often sound lumpy as the piano has 127 virtual velocity layers and the part was compiled to be played through a VSTi with 1! I usually use Sonar's midi compressor to even out the peaks and troughs in velocities and restrict the number of velocity layers in the sample sets I use. BAIB string parts often sound fairly awful in good quality sample sets I assume for the same reason. These things are easily sorted though and are really just part of the workflow. Until I got a 64bit Windows 7 PC I always loaded VSC in any Sonar project and routed any midi parts through that first to get a better sense of what they sounded like before then running them through bigger, better sample sets, and making any amendments to the midi velocities. Sadly now, VSC won't even intall on my PC ... Isn't progress great.
Brian
Fifer:
I think this is a good idea. Maybe you could contact the Forum Administrator about moving it to the BIAB wishlist forum.
John
The one thing about the "wishlist" forum is that hardly anyone reads it and virtually no-one ever replies to / adds to the posts! I posted here so that forum members would, if they wish, add to the debate, contribute their ways of working etc (as a number of folks have done very usefully).
I suppose the best approach is to cross post, and that's probably what I should have done.
Brian
Quote:
The one thing about the "wishlist" forum is that hardly anyone reads it and virtually no-one ever replies to / adds to the posts! I posted here so that forum members would, if they wish, add to the debate, contribute their ways of working etc (as a number of folks have done very usefully).
I suppose the best approach is to cross post, and that's probably what I should have done.
Brian
Over the years I have seen quite a few "New Features" implemented in Band in a Box that started life on the Wishlist Forum. (And some requests that never seem to get fulfilled as well...)
But I have become convinced that the Wishlist Forum is the place where the development team goes to look for possible new features when that time comes around and that having your wish there will make certain that it will be where they will be looking.
As for your specific request, well, it is a good idea, I'm not certain whether implementation will be all that easy or not due to the fact that until the introduction of RealTracks, Band in a Box simply did not work that way. There never has been a way to add MIDI style file tracks one at a time as we can with the RealTracks and I am not sure what that would entail in the way of development in order to get it to happen.
--Mac
Brian:
Well written post and I agree completely-- it would be great of PGMusic provided a midi part browser. I would like to assemble some hybrid styles, but the thought of searching through every midi style for the right parts simply overwhelms me. On my last project, I settled for style parts that were adequate but could have been much better if I had taken the time to search more. In the meantime, several of us could volunteer our favorite choices for midi parts. Then we could assemble a text file of these so we each have a shortlist to draw from and save a lot of time when needed.
For example, for acoustic piano, here's an obvious one for me:
Part: acoustic piano
style: elton2.sty
feel: EV16
genre: rock
tempo: 80
--- Jim
Quote:
Brian:
Well written post and I agree completely-- it would be great of PGMusic provided a midi part browser. I would like to assemble some hybrid styles, but the thought of searching through every midi style for the right parts simply overwhelms me. On my last project, I settled for style parts that were adequate but could have been much better if I had taken the time to search more. In the meantime, several of us could volunteer our favorite choices for midi parts. Then we could assemble a text file of these so we each have a shortlist to draw from and save a lot of time when needed.
For example, for acoustic piano, here's an obvious one for me:
Part: acoustic piano
style: elton2.sty
feel: EV16
genre: rock
tempo: 80
--- Jim
I use the "Memo" area of Biab to list my BB parts as I audition styles for a Hybrid Style. Another way of minimizing your search is by filtering the styles down to tempo and feel with the "style filter." You will need a similar "prototype" style, which is close to what you are looking for in your song. Once you have selected your prototype, then use the style filter to list similar styles to make a hybrid with.
Trax
Totally agree and I posted this a few years ago in the Wishlist forum but alas, nothing has been done. I would love to be able to pick a rock style midi piano just like we can pick from the different rock style piano RT's. A few months ago I was looking for a certain funky midi guitar part and spent the better part of an hour trying out all the funk midi styles until I found one.
Hmmm, perhaps we or me (no promises!) can create a list of custom styles like John is talking about. Sort it by instrument/genre and post it here where we can all add to it. It would need to have descriptive notes. I remember when going through all the funky guitar parts, some were rhythm while some were just licks. Of course the ones that were licks were designed to fit with the other parts of the style so they didn't sound very good by themselves. This would be tricky but perhaps we could start with obvious major genres like rock, blues, country etc.
Bob
+1
I would LOVE that feature to be implemented and for almost the same reasons.
Have you tried the new style filter? It really helps. I put in that I wanted:
1. Midi style
2. country
3. used Acoustic Piano
It filtered down to 34 styles.Not too bad to pick through.
Yeah, that's OK John but not close to what we really need. If it's Biab, when you pick a style, it changes the whole song when all we may want is one piano part from one style to go with what we already have. We can do that with RT's but not the midi styles. If we're in RB, yes we can choose a style for just one track but we still need to first hit the stylepicker button up top, find the style from a huge list, then go down to the track and pick the piano part before we can hear it. That's a lot of mouse clicks and moving around the screen when we need to audition a bunch of parts. I want to simply right click the track, pick midi instrument, pick piano and see a list of midi piano parts to choose from organized by genre just like the RT parts. That would be very cool but like Mac said maybe it's just not possible.
Bob
Quote:
Have you tried the new style filter? It really helps. I put in that I wanted:
1. Midi style
2. country
3. used Acoustic Piano
It filtered down to 34 styles.Not too bad to pick through.
Nice -- but it didn't include the country piano part listed in post #1 from the styles disk 50.
Kevin
I use mainly Real tracks. Whilst its true that some instruments lend themselves to the MIDI format, many do not. The problem lies in the nature of MIDi not being able ot capture the instrument. Many instruments have unique characteristics that just dont get translated into the 'note on note off' kind of parameters - a Hendrix solo with all its feedback is a case in point - you could never get this sort of stuff from MIDI - and I have tried.
I once took a live rock number (Rod Stewart Id rather go Blind)and copied every note to MIDI using first class instruments to emulate every sound. I copied every timning nuance, every dynamic. The result? Wooden stale and lifeless.
OK so there are some good MIDI tracks no doubt, and the idea of having 'live input' MIDI is a good one. BUt I would much prefer more REAL TRACKS
Silvertones,
Re. styles filter there is an issue because the present style filter don't see the users styles or 3rd-party styles or PG special styles (classical). I posted in the whislit forum some weeks ago for this request. So, we need to get an exhaustive tool for selecting the proper styles among ALL the styles present in BIAB styles folder.
Even if there was a preview of parts within a midi style in the style dialog this would be a great help, but I don't know if this would be possible.
Myabe if Peter or the PG team could make a quick comment on this requested feature as there does seem to be a lot of appetite for this among the biab users.
musiclover
Another program that is similar to BIAB (the name of it rhymes with Whammer) implemented this by taking the style files and separating out all the parts into riff files.
Maybe in the future, BIAB could use separate riff files (the individual instruments), which could be combined into the style (as it currently is implemented) for backward compatibility, but also allow for picking individual instruments (much like RealTracks does it now). This would make mixing and matching MIDI and RTs into a new style much easier, as well. Just a thought.
Bump
Could someone from PG Music chime in here and let us know if this idea could be implemented in BIAB? And then maybe we could move this thread over to the BIAB wishlist.
It would be great to have the same flexibility with midi parts that we now have with
RealTracks.
Thanks,
John
Yes, I think this is a great idea. Perhaps a MIDI picker that lists a preselected list of MIDI parts that would work well. And the ability to specify a specific MIDI track if the one you wanted was not listed.
I am glad to see this back on the forum once again. Like most of you I really like real tracks and use them whenever I can. Like real musicians playing parts live sometimes you get what you want and sometimes you don't. I plan to continue buying future upgrades because BIAB is my primary tool for generating back up tracks. . BIAB can be made much stronger if users can easily find, audition and blend various instruments as needed. There are hundreds/thousands of great parts. I firmly believe that dollar for dollar R&D spent on a sophisticated interface for finding the parts will bring greater interest/sales etc than any other area.
BIAB is not alone with this concern. I sometimes use EZ Drums and with the thousands of patterns finding the right pattern is really dificult. Perhaps a drag and drop tool of each pattern via plugin could be an option to replace or supliment the grid for frequency of a pattern being played. This is more tedious for the casual user but gives the user ultimate control. Hoping to see more MIDI focus along with the RTs from PG.
The posts from jford and Mr Gannon both cover my wishes perfectly.
But the fun with the midi in BIAB is now part of the process of turning my thoughts into music, although if implimented the complexity of BIAB then would be astounding.
The ability to compose/recompose or even freeze the midi instruments in user chosen, highlighted bars of a song rather than the whole song would also be nice.
+1.
The MIDI picker would be indeed a great idea. At present time, we have a huge MIDI ressources in elementary styles patterns 'library', but we have not really an efficient tool to pick some patterns from several styles to make another new style.
Has PG considered using the same artist for generating both midi and real tracks? IMHO this could work well at least for piano parts. Many electric pianos sound as good or better than average grands.
Assuming an artist is willing to play on an electric then both audio real tracks and midi tracks could be captured simultaneously. I am sure PG could make very good use of these. There would be distinct advantages of both systems. This might also save money since PG would get two products for the price of one.
As a guiar player I know some of Godin multiacs would work quite well for nylon string sound and possibly more.
Just a thought.
Yes.
Many of the MIDI styles feature "Live" recording of players on MIDI guitars or keyboards. There are "Live Drums" MIDI styles also, which were created by utilizing the services of a live studio drummer playing on a MIDI drumset.
Some of those players are also featured on some of the RealTracks, but there have been quite a few players added to the pool since the introduction of RealTracks.
--Mac
“Live” midi recording is a great idea, however would they have to be done in RB instead of BiaB? The reason I say that is BiaB is still stuck at 120 PPQ and to record some of the playing nuances I would think you would need at least 480 PPQ or preferably 960 PPQ. Right?
Yes live midi recordings are good but they still have to be paired with a very high quality midi synth, as in very expensive high quality midi synth. Then, the midi controls used for the nuances have to be supported by said synth. This is why the best live midi's were done on specific software using a specific synth. Garritan or Gigasampler are two examples neither of which are GM, they both use their own proprietary midi controls and it takes a good player months to figure out the best way to play live using those midi controls with a specific, again usually very expensive, midi instrument that can use those controls. The midi file sounds awesome when played back through the exact same setup used to record it but if you change the synth or DAW program you lose a bunch of that and you're back to the old lifeless midi file. That's why you can visit websites of these companies and listen to rendered audio demo's of those midi files and they sound mind blowingly good. That means absolutely squat to what can be done with Biab though. In order for Biab to duplicate that you would first have to buy and use the same synth, then the Biab styles would have to be rewritten to handle those proprietary midi controllers and I doubt that's even possible. Then of course somebody says I don't like that synth I want to use this synth and then all the styles would have to be rewritten to handle that one. Good luck with that.
There's no easy answer to this.
Bob
When I make my own MIDI styles, I record everything live, in real time, into a MIDI sequencer. Then I import snippets of what I recorded into BiaB's StyleMaker. The result is MIDI that sounds live as long as you have a decent GM Synth (not the cheap synth chip in your sound card).
Check out this mp3
http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/Sweet_Home_Chicago_M128.mp3 I made this 12 bar blues progression (public domain chord progression) to play "Sweet Home Chicago" with. However I use a 192kbps mp3 for my duo, and this one is ripped at 128 so it doesn't take so much time to download. It can be used for dozens of other blues songs.
I recorded it in BiaB using a couple of my
Norton Music blues styles (#BluBrk2.sty and #BluChi1.sty). Added some minor horn riffs and let BiaB harmonize them, and then exported to MIDI. I imported it into an old bug-free copy of Master Tracks Pro and added the walking bass line in certain sections.
The fact that all the parts of the style (including the drums) were recorded using live into a sequencer before importing into BiaB's StyleMaker meant that very little post editing was necessary. I moved a couple of the drum rolls around and a few minor edits like that, but nothing to change the groove or feel.
All the sounds except the bass are General MIDI sounds from the following sound modules, Roland SD90, Roland SC55, Roland MT32, I have other modules, but they were just the sounds I wanted.
The bass is from a sampled Faux-Fender-Jazz Bass that I own and sampled in an old 12bit Akai S900 hardware sampler. Of course I could have used a General MIDI fingered bass for this, the bass on my Yamaha VL70m would have worked as well, but I happen to like using the one I sampled.
So there is nothing wrong with MIDI -- and nothing wrong with General MIDI. There is something wrong with cheap synth chips though.
For the price of all that extra storage and back up storage needed for RTs, you could buy a great General MIDI sound module and enjoy the thousands of non RT styles plus have the editing ability that only MIDI tracks can give you.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
What are the "decent GM synths" you are referring to ...and what should you expect to pay?
I just loaded the Coyote Forte DXi and was really pleased! I had only heard the Coyote WT up to that point. How much better are the synths you are referring to than the Coyote Forte? I am just becoming aware of these differences...Thanks!
Ken
The Roland/Edriol synths I used in the example are decent hardware synths, but by no means the "top of the line". Decent GM synths with some extra banks.
I don't use software synths, so I can't recommend any of those. I like to mix and match synths and I found that software synths all have different latency amounts which make it very hard to mix the bass from one with the horns from another. Most hardware synths have about 5ms latency (give or take a ms).
Also, I want my computer's CPU to be processing music, and not bogged down with creating each instrument voice from scratch when an external synth can have them all stored in ROM.
Not sayin soft synths are bad, they just aren't my choice.
You gotta admit that mp3 file sounds much better than a computer sound card or the VSC.
Notes ♫
Nice work on the 12 bar blues track. Liked the horn lines and bass. What is the easiest way to get this in BIAB format?
I totally agree that quality playback with midi is the primary factor in BIAB midi sound quality. I use EZ drummer, Garritan JBB3 and my RD700 and many of the sounds are IMHO much better than real tracks. The piano sounds for example in some of the early RTs wasn't up to the wonderful sounds in the Rd700. The Garritan Steinway in JBB3 is also very good.
While I would like to see more resolution I don't see this a huge factor. Plug in great sounds and existing BIAB tracks will sound incredibly good! Get a good midi sound source - you won';t regret it.
Glad to see interest in quality midi features for BIAB continues in this forum. I am for continued inmprovement in both RTs and midi to keep BIAB in the forefront of music production.
Notes, what's your opinion of the KETRON SD2 synth? That's the onlyone I have ever used.
dpresly: I posted a page that lets you download the .mp3 and the BiaB format .mgu that I used to make this track.
This page also has more complete notes on what I edited after I exported it from BiaB
You can find that page here
http://www.nortonmusic.com/freemp3.html It might be interesting for you to compare the .mgu with the final product to hear what a little bit of editing can do to take a good BiaB output and make it better.
Tchairdjian: I've never used the Ketron, but from reading the posts here and in other forums, it has a very good reputation.
To Notes:
Thanks. I plan to take your track and record and post an MP3 with my best sound sources so that everyone can hear the difference. I think even you will be pleasantly surpized.
Also like your blues styles better than my own so I plan to purchase these.
Hi,
I know this is not the solution we are looking for; however, the quickest way I have found to find that "perfect" part is to use the Audition button in the Stylepicker window.
I believe you can mute parts before going into Stylepicker (I don't have access to my BIAB right now so cannot verify this).
With this work around I can generally move fairly quickly through styles and then create my hybrid.
Hope this helps while we await the solution from PG.
THANKS - YOUR EXAMPLE NAILS DOWN THE PROBLEM VERY ACCURATELY.
Take also in consideration that the new stylepicker don't include the user styles or 3rd party styles. that is a pity, because user styles are created to add sepcific styles or patterns not present in BIAB styles. I have issued a post in the wihslist forum some weeks ago to ask for a stylepikcer that would include ALL the styles present in BIAB directory, that is BIAB styles plus 3rd party styles.
I have been using BIAB for well over ten years and still use it for it's original purpose - to provide a quick and easy accompaniment for my keyboard playing. I have very little musical knowledge and quite frankly not a lot of creativity and the beauty of BIAB is that you don't need much of either because the basic MIDI styles have always given me what I needed. I don't have the necessary skill or desire to get into the style maker or into Realband - there must be hundreds of users like me.
When RDs came along it was a simple extra that gave an option that added to the overall sound and more importantly was a simple substitution within the basic MIDI style. When RTs came along things started to change and the program started to concentrate on a more professional kind of user. It took me a while to realize that the Realstyles weren't of much use to me because most of them were fairly boring styles with the addition of a solo. Even the improvement in sound didn't really excite me as I am perfectly happy with the sound from my SD50 synth. I would much rather have more choice of exciting ready made styles than have to cope with the complexity of building my own styles from the different RTs. I have learned to cope with the problems of needing a better computer, RT load time and the need to freeze everything. But for me to really use RTs I need 5 instrument Realstyles without solos, (I will add my own) that are as varied as MIDI styles.
Don't get me wrong, I am full of admiration for those profesionals who can produce wonderful results with BIAB, Realband and other DAWs and PG must cater to these users but it's just that PG shouldn't lose sight of their roots and need to keep an eye on the MIDI crowd and users like me. Recently I have turned to Bob Norton's styles as a way of keeping things fresh.
Regards
Tony
I must respectfully disagree.
Professional musicians generally prefer the MIDI tracks. Why? Many reasons, but mostly because they are editable.
It's impractical to impossible to edit a real track, change a note, get rid of something that might conflict with the melody, add a song-specific part and change anything in the RT that conflicts with that part, refine kicks/licks etc.
Most professional musicians have good synthesizers, instead of the cheesy sounds on the 99 cent synth chip on the computer's sound card.
Pros know that to the audience, expression, the parts, the song itself is much more important than the finer points of tone.
From the feedback I get on my site, the professionals overwhelming prefer the MIDI styles.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
I think we've had this conversation before. I'm a jazz pianist, been using BIAB since 1995. I don't do "cover" music, which MIDI is well suited for. There must be many thousands like me who were ecstatic when RD and RT came out. When you do A-B comparisons, the choice is clear for those whose main musical thing is improvising. Just my side of this thread. Later, Ray
P.S. I'm a "professional" also.
I'm an amateur who doesn't understand the either/or exclusivity of this thing.
So I use what does the job at hand best and have fun.
--Mac
>>> It's impractical to impossible to edit a real track, change a note, get rid of something that might conflict with the melody, add a song-specific part and change anything in the RT that conflicts with that part, refine kicks/licks etc.
Hi Bob,
You ** can ** replace BB generated parts (RealTracks or MIDI ) with song specific parts, using the standard MIDI synth that comes with BB. There is a video and audio demoing this in the Tips and Tricks section here
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316518&an=0&page=0#Post316518
Like Mac I am another amateur - I would like to see both expanded and improved. When I do a new tune I look at all possibilities from BIAB and Midi and try to use the best for each step or part. I mix and match midi, real tracks and BIAB tracks plus live audio to produce the best final result. In general RTs are good for many jazz tunes (I am primarily a jazz guitarist)and midi or BIAB are best for pop rock but I find many exceptions. I recently did some country tunes and found that RTs for country are fantastic. As a along term user I hope that MIDI and RTs receive near equal attention for future development. A real good style part picker for both would top my list. If you are exclusive to either you are not getting your money's worth.
Quote:
Like Mac I am another amateur
Mac has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek, he is far from an amateur. 31,894 posts is your first clue.
Bob
Why not teach us how to make RTracks for use in BIAB, from what I've heard here ,PG users have some pretty good chops. I love the edit-ability of midi and I have tons of software synths to get the sounds needed ,but nothing sounds like a real instrument except a real instrument.(Sorry Bob I disagree with you on that) Every one who has heard my newest RT based tunes said they were glad I dumped the midi crap and used a real band . That'll be my little secret .
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"I dumped the midi crap and used a real band."
Andere Freude fũr andere Leute.
I’m finding this tread very interesting as many of us are either anti-midi or anti-RTs/RDs. I, like Mac and some others, use whatever sounds the best for the song I’m working on. However I seem to be 180 degrees out of phase with many!
Let me explain. I use mostly midi for my original music. The ratio is about 90 percent midi and 10% RTs. I very rarely use RDs on my originals. I can manipulate midi parts far more easily than I can RTs. I also have some very good sounding sound sources. Sound sources, I believe is the secret for midi. If you are using an inexpensive GM or MS midi sound source than RTs will always sound better no matter how much midi tweaking you do! With good sound sources there is not that much difference. However they do cost a lot of money.
Now I use mostly RTs/RDs with covers! Note that I do not believe in doing covers exactly like the original. If I did that then why would anyone listen to me when they can play the record/CD. I have a couple of clients who love singing old country standards for their friends and families. RTs/RDs are a God sent! I no longer have to generate/play midi parts anymore. I just use RTs/RDs and I can produce a pro quality song in minutes. They are extremely happy with the results, as am I. Note that I would love to send up an example however I respect the forum’s no cover song rule.
So the bottom line is use whatever works best for you but don’t put down the other side! Midi, RTs, and RDs should work side by side and neither is always perfect or always not perfect.
Just my two cents.
I am indeed an amateur.
Problem here is that people have redefined for themselves what the word means.
"Amateur" -- From the French, meaning literally "love of the craft".
"Professional" -- From Latin and possibly Greek roots, one meaning of which is merely someone who got paid to do the job over a period of time.
For my trety on the subject, taken from an Audiominds post and into posterity by another member, visit the link below and read the rant.
"What's an Amateur?" --Mac
I love having both MIDI and RealTracks/RealDrums available to me. It makes for a much more complete toolbox with which to craft music. Why limit yourself to only one or the other?
Since RealTracks can't follow notation, then I must rely on MIDI to render specific phrases; however, RealTracks give me some very interesting accompaniment. I know some people have complained that things start repeating (soundwise) after awhile, but remember RealTracks are still pretty new. Several years down the road, once we have tens of thousands of RealTracks to choose from, there will be plenty to keep it interesting.
I know people who play specific instruments will always complain that the rendition just isn't right. That's great if you're playing for other musicians. I'm in the camp, however, that finds if the audience enjoys the music, they don't really care about technical possibilities. I've never heard anyone ever say, "Wow...that sounded really cool, but you can't really do that on [insert instrument here], so I guess I can't like it."
RealTracks give me cool solo lines, but so does the BIAB soloist and melodist. Whatever works! I also find on some songs I use RealDrums, on others, I still use MIDI. And sometimes, I augment the RealDrums with MIDI percussion instruments.
That being said, I would like to see additional MIDI styles. What would really be cool would be if PGMusic provided a "style converter" that took Yamaha styles, Korg styles, Casio styles, Kurzweil styles, etc into BIAB styles. I have tons of downloaded styles that are just begging to be "BIAB-ified". Obviously, you're not going to get all the nuances that those instruments provide within their sound engines, but just getting the notes and riffs in place is a good start. I'm sure there are copyright issues, but license fees can overcome that.
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That being said, I would like to see additional MIDI styles
That's my point exactly.
It's not a question of MIDI vs RD/RT, just keep the right balance between the two by issuing more MIDI styles. There are so many already that it might take some effort to come up styles that are original and fresh.
Also why are so many of the styles with RTs just a simple style with a track devoted to a solo RT? There seem to be far more interesting all MIDI styles.
Tony