Very interested in BiaB but I have a few questions first....

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Hi there! I signed up for this forum because I am very interested in BiaB (UltraPlusPAK to be more specific). I have to add I've been very interested for YEARS already... but a few things were holding me back everytime I thought about buying BiaB.

1. First of all (and this might not be a very nice thing to say for a newbie here, sorry, but I like to be honest) I was put off by the interface... It looks like shareware from 1995... (Again: sorry!). Now I know this doesn't mean BiaB isn't good, but well... I always thought it looked old and very complicated.... Maybe I am sensitive for this because I am a graphic designer...? Anyway, year after year (yes, I've been looking at BiaB since the nineties!!!) I was hoping the interface would get an update, but it seems that won't happen, so... I might as well get over it. Ok, now that is out of the way, let's move on to my next questions...

2. I wonder if BiaB is suited for more er... alternative music. Seems a lot of styles are more or less middle of the road and very America-oriented (lots of country and gospel). The songs I made up to now aren't very alternative or weird, but not middle of the road (I think). Now this won't have to be a huge problem because I am considering to get BiaB mainly for laying down a quick foundation for my songs. I work with Cakewalk's Sonar Producer Edition 8.5 and I sometimes get very tired of laying down the basic tracks all by myself. And since I can't afford studio musicians, BiaB seems a nice alternative. I might for instance only use it to get a quick bass part of some piano backgrounds. Still, I wonder if BiaB is suited for what I usually do.

Maybe someone can direct me to some more alternative user demo's? I listened to a few already, but they wren't my kind of thing. Maybe it's a good idea to post links to some songs I made, so you can understand in which direction I am thinking. So here are a few of my songs:

Yellow light

Turn around

Distortion

Fallen leaves

After awakening

You can find more on my Soundclick page. Anyway, would BiaB help me with songs like this? My music use a lot of melodic parts (or whatever you call it) that can't be automated, I think...

3. I wonder if, since RealTracks use real recording of 1 to 8 bars (?), using RealTracks won't give me VERY repetitive songs... with the same licks and stuff all over the place...?

4. Is it easy to somehow get the BiaB RealTracks into Sonar 8.5...? RealTracks aren't midi, so I guess that I HAVE to use those tracks and can't use them to let other instruments do their thing? What exactly will I get into Sonar: wavs or midi or...? How does this work? (Any Sonar users here?)

5. Are there any recent reviews of BiaB somewhere (from musicsites and magazines, not Amazon)? I can only find old reviews.

Well, that's it, for starters. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my (perharps sometimes blunt) remarks, but I like to be clear about things...

EDIT
O, one more thing: if I buy the UltraPlusPAK, will I have to download EVERYTHING before I can work with BiaB or can I download the program itself and some RealTracks first in order to get going...? Or is it all or nothing? Just curious.

The bottom line is that you can take advantage of the pgmusic 30-day no questions asked purchase policy to get the complete program in your hands and have those 30 days to see for yourself. That's like getting a full-featured Demo that even saves your work. They honor that policy, so you have zero risk provided you make the decision not to keep the program and contact pgmusic sales within that 30-day time period.

Welcome!

--Mac

I won't try answering everything but have some suggestions...

On the RealTracks page, there are demos of all of them. Browse through and listen to some. That may help.

You don't need any RealTracks to use BIAB. You can selectively download and try them out. The download links have a expiration of about 3 days though. There will be a learning curve to overcome. There are a lot of features and the interface can be overwhelming. The tutorials and forum are very helpful.

And remember, there is a 30 day trial.

R

Oh my so many questions

We would really need a night at the pub to chat about all of these. I would love to address ll of them but,in the consideration of time, I thought I could breck up each into individual reponses and then have others jump in or simply get to them as I can.

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1. First of all (and this might not be a very nice thing to say for a newbie here, sorry, but I like to be honest) I was put off by the interface... It looks like shareware from 1995... (Again: sorry!). Now I know this doesn't mean BiaB isn't good, but well... I always thought it looked old and very complicated.... Maybe I am sensitive for this because I am a graphic designer...? Anyway, year after year (yes, I've been looking at BiaB since the nineties!!!) I was hoping the interface would get an update, but it seems that won't happen, so... I might as well get over it. Ok, now that is out of the way, let's move on to my next questions...

This is an easy one, you actual have identifed the answer already. Keep in mind the output of BIAB is Audio not Video so what the interface looks like has not bearing on the music it makes. You said it best, ".. get over it". I listend to you music, it is good. Based on what I heard you are not a beginner as I predict you will actually spend little time in BIAB - using only to get the tune going (the most importing value of BIAB for musicians). Then you will llikely move over to RB or on to more advance DAW editing and recording.

Thanks for the quick responses! Knowing a supporting forum is alive is already great.

About the 30 day trial: that's cool indeed but even then I'd like to know a bit more because downloading some 40 Gb isn't nothing... Then again, it might be the best thing to do indeed. But I wonder if I can get to grips with BiaB within those 30 days...

EDIT
Ah, Jazzmandan posted while I was typing.

Ok, so if I probably won't spend too much time in BiaB, I wonder if that full PAK is the way to go for me... Then again, I would love to use some solo's from instruments I don't have VSTi's for (sax, trumpet, etc.)... I have no idea if I would actually use some of the RealTracks in my finished songs. Maybe I only end up with the midi-date for bass and piano here and there, I don't know, but then I might as well have bought a more basic PAK. (And thanks for the compliment.

)

Oh, welcome to the forum.

"Band in a Box is more like laying your hands on a musical instrument that is new to you than being like any other software I know about."

No, you likely won't be able to find out all the things that BiaB can do within the 30-day trial period.

Yes, you should be able to better evaluate the program and what it might provide that suits your needs, although the above analogy applies: The beginning guitarist may be able to learn two or three chord shapes and how to strum along with a song kind of rapidly, enjoying the instant gratification, but all too soon they will find out the kind of daily dedication, learning curve, discipline of practice and all the rest that goes along with becoming a master of the instrument.

The good news is that with BiaB it is a rather comprehensive situation that won't wear out or get old in a short time at all. The more you work with it, the more you will be able to accomplish.

For the Music Creator, Band in a Box can be like having a full cadre of well-honed Studio Musicians at your beck and call, ready to interpret your ideas with finesse. Just as when using live musicians for that kind of thing, their interpretation may or may not be what you had in mind - so switch musicians or change direction - to me the single biggest thing I had to learn in the early days was to not try to fight the program or force it to do something that the virtual musicians refused to do. As my knowledge of how to use BiaB increased, I found that many of those things could indeed actually be done anyway, but my own obstinate way of thinking was in the way of revealing the methodology needed to get the computer to do that special something.

--Mac

First off, welcome to the forum. Your thoughts on the GUI are not alone, there have been many who come in and want a updated look, but remember there are as many opinions on the look as there are people, and the fact is whether it functions is more important. I have noticed over the last few years every make wants to have a somehow new looking hammer, but still it is to drive nails.

When working with a program like Sonar, you can drop and drag tracks, bot midi and audio to Sonar.

Realtracks transfer as well,m also there is a DAW program that comes with BiaB, called Real Band, and while it is not as feature deep as Sonar it is a nice program, and does some incredible things. As far as being repetitive, that is possible, but not as likely, as they tend to be rather simple, and more targeted towards background tracking, and not as much of a lead instrument, yet that is slowly changing. I have found some lead licks to be difficult to fit in, and others just nail it. So it takes work.

As far as genre goes, there is some tracks that will help you, but yes it is aimed at Pop, Rock, Country, and very heavily towards Jazz. There are some blues, metal, and heavier Rock tracks, but not as many. If you use it as a track bed there will be cool stuff to use, as you mix in your own tracks.

J van E,

Not in same league as most of you folks, but quick
easy piece of advice.

Once you get the Software.
Spend some time specifically "auditioning" the Realtracks.

PG BIAB folks have created some great RealTrack files which the audition
does for you.

Being your going to really be into the Backing tracks this
will do two things, first amaze you to the sounds, then give
you a very powerful tool to use as Mac had mentioned above.

Good Luck,

Seeker

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2. I wonder if BiaB is suited for more er... alternative music. Seems a lot of styles are more or less middle of the road and very America-oriented (lots of country and gospel). The songs I made up to now aren't very alternative or weird, but not middle of the road (I think). Now this won't have to be a huge problem because I am considering to get BiaB mainly for laying down a quick foundation for my songs. I work with Cakewalk's Sonar Producer Edition 8.5 and I sometimes get very tired of laying down the basic tracks all by myself. And since I can't afford studio musicians, BiaB seems a nice alternative. I might for instance only use it to get a quick bass part of some piano backgrounds. Still, I wonder if BiaB is suited for what I usually do.

"...laying down the basic tracks..." is exactly what BIAB will do for you.
I think BAIB is rhythmicly suited for your music. Generally I heard straight 4/4 so there will be lots of options to select for rhythmic backing tracks as well as comping by piano and soloist with any of a number of solo instruments. An entire bass backing, or some piano fills or backgrouds, works wonderfully. I am not a Sonar Guy, but moving MIDI or WAV content from BIAB into a DAW is exactly what many of us do to create our tracks. By the way - do you play an instrument, or just arrange for your vocals? Either way, BIAB is super.

Always like to recommend this link to user supplied tutorials.

http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.user.htm

Especially the one by Dan which takes you through creating a song in BIAB then taking it to RealBand for more track generation and finally into Reaper for final production.

This may help answer some of your questions.
Remember RealBand comes free with BIAB so it's a 2 fer.

And these forums really help the learning curve.
Lots to learn but lots to gain.
Enjoy,
Carkins

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Always like to recommend this link to user supplied tutorials.

http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.user.htm

Especially the one by Dan ...

That would be our forum buddy, Shockwave199, who did a great job on these videos. Too many Dan's around here

Why not shoot for a bit more than you 'might', and order it on a hard drive. I wouldn't download it myself, though I often do updates that way. You can ask Sales via live help, based on your position on the globe, 'how long to get it.' Check back here with the people in your country to see what type of time frame is involved.

The software was accused of being too jazz oriented.

The users seem to push it towards country and gospel because that seems to be the heaviest demand, but that can change.

If you are thinking about dubstep or some such thing, I'm not too sure.

For 'american standards', gospel, country, and most jazz genres it's covered. Retro for the 60's and folk is covered well too. Techno, well, it might work well, try putting in a mix, you can roll your own style. So to keep an Em chord running for 4 minutes with variations on bass etc, you have a lot of methods of going forward, and you can take it to RealBand or another daw of your choice once it's going. The advantage of realband as a combo/daw is that you can use it to make more solos for say a horn, or fiddle, and have that come in for 2 or 3 measures, once you get all the tracks laid down you can export them.

Too much to talk about, too little time alas.

Hi,

I suspect you're also interested to follow the answers to my post

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=333707&an=0&page=0#Post333707

I hope I'm not right

Regards

Here's another way to look at the 255 bar limit. The song "I Concentrate On You" has 64 bars. You can repeat it 40 times. That's 2,560 bars. By the way, that song is considered one of the "long" songs. One chorus of a song that uses up to 255 bars is a long song indeed, but you can repeat it up to 40 times. Later, Ray

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Here's another way to look at the 255 bar limit. The song "I Concentrate On You" has 64 bars. You can repeat it 40 times. That's 2,560 bars. By the way, that song is considered one of the "long" songs. One chorus of a song that uses up to 255 bars is a long song indeed, but you can repeat it up to 40 times. Later, Ray

I'm not so skilled in english to understand "sarcasm" or "irony", but if that's what you tried, I still think that the composition and inspiration processes shouldn't be limitted by anything, and less by the lenght of a song.

It's just a matter of the program workflow. If you have to be always taking into account "how many bars can I afford to finish the song", then you are working with fear, unless, you can do "stunts" to deal with the repetition and codas system.

The other side, is to have a 255 unfinished song repeated 40 times, which does not work at all for anyone.

I think, the first step to improve anything is to recognize your own problems, and this limitation is a real problem indeed. Maybe it can work in many situation.... or maybe not, but that's not a matter a musician should deal with, most of all when the fix is apparently so easy to develop.

If I misunderstood you I beg you pardon

I do my best with my english.

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If I misunderstood you I beg you pardon I do my best with my english.

I tried to say "didn't understand you very well", I think "misunderstood" is something far from what I tried to say.

Sorry for my horrible english

Alberto,

"Misunderstood" is the exact word for what you meant. Your English is better than you think.

Richard

To get back on topic

I have on more question: I've seen some video's about BiaB but it seems you can only add chordchanges on the beat (with a maximum 4 in a 4/4 bar...?). Can you enter chord changes on off beat notes? So you get a syncopated rhythm with chordchanges on those syncopated notes?

For instance, say the beat is 1a2a3a4a and I want a chord changes on 2a and 4a: is that possible?

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To get back on topic

This thread did drift - don't know why since there is another thread covering the other topic.

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Can you enter chord changes on off beat notes? So you get a syncopated rhythm with chordchanges on those syncopated notes?

For instance, say the beat is 1a2a3a4a and I want a chord changes on 2a and 4a: is that possible?

I'll try to answer, although, hopefully others will weigh in if I am off.

The answer is Yes, But...

The beat and the way the chords interact with the beat is a function of the "Style". These "Styles" are the core of all BIAB tunes (except for RT's - see below). This is one reason you buy the biggest package as you get more styles. The great majority of styles which come with BIAB are 4 chords to the measure. There are 3 often cited workarounds to this: 1) New Styles can be created to allow 1/8 note placement of chords generally by combining two measures and adjusting tempo, 2) Third party Styles can be purchased - see Notes Norton, and 3) There is the ability to "push" a chord to play 1/8 or 1/16 ahead of the beat.

All this talk about Styles only pertains to MIDI. Real Tracks (RT), since they are recordings are not influenced by the "Style". Many of these will have a syncopated rhythm since they are natural players laying down the track also a "push" and "hold" have actually recordings for many, not all, of the RT's - again this is why you need to biggest package so you have more options of hearing something which fits with what you want.

OK, I may have mdde a mess of this - Lets sit and wait until the "authorities

" wake up and step in to clarify and correct if needed.

No BUT there are work arounds for that.

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Yes, But...

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No BUT .....

John, we both agree on the BUT. Perhaps I was being a bit optimistic this morning. It is a record breaking beautiful morning in Chicago.

Thanks again for the answers!

But er... it sounds a bit complicated. I mean, I fully understand what you are saying, but it's a pity you can't place chord changes where you want them, period.

You also say "why you need to biggest package so you have more options of hearing something which fits with what you want" and I was already thinking about that: since I am used to have total control over everything, I wonder if using BiaB won't be come a tedious chore for me because I have to listen to hundreds of styles and RealTracks just to find the one that 'by accident' has the rhythm or whatever I am looking for... This already bothers me with addons like EZ-Drummer, where I usually quickly pick a pattern and edit it to my liking. But 'editing to my liking' isn't really possible with RealTracks. The idea of having to load and audition tons of styles and tracks before I find one that fits, doesn't sound very appealing...

Another thing that I think could bother me is (as far as I can understand) that when I DO find a RealTrack that has the right groove and everything, it might not have the right SOUND I like... When I listen to various demo's, I hear different drums and different basses etc. all the time. What if a certain RealTracks has the SOUND I like but not the groove? And what if I would like to combine various things and wind up with various sounds all over the place...?

Ah, you know what, maybe I should indeed simply order the UltraPlusPAK and see what I can do with it. If the money back guarantee works as advertised, there is nothing to lose, really. Still, spending 469 bucks, even when I can get them back, isn't something I do very easily...

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...I am used to have total control over everything,

You have got a good handle on it.

If you want:

the bass player to vamp a specific pattern, or,
the guitarist to play a first inversion on that bar with E in the Bass rather than a C note, and then do that cool James Brown chaka-chaka rhythm,

or you simply need the dummer to do a "da da da doe da da" coming out of the chorus and for god sakes why won't the horn players play in unison when you want them to.

Then you need your own band.

On the other hand, if you can settle for "..hey that sounds cool, I can work with that" and you are creative in arranging and editing in a DAW then BIAB may be the tool for you.

Good Luck

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3) There is the ability to "push" a chord to play 1/8 or 1/16 ahead of the beat.

Sorry for "doubling" my thread.

I'll be back on this topic also.

I also find this a bit frustrating.

There's a way you can push (but only backwards) the chords.

Let's say you want to put a C chord in the first beat of measure 3.

If you write "^C" instead "C" in that first beat of meausre 3, it'll be played in the middle of beat 4 of measure 2 instead.

That's good, at least it's a workaround.

The problem is when you want that, plus a D chord (for instance) in the beggining of measure 3 also.

You have to choose between your C chord or D chord because there's room just for one.

If there was a way to push the chords forward (not only backwards), things would be a but better, but at least I don't know how to do it.

...how can you do that boys? any ideas?

I think BIAB is perfect for laying down that bass, drums and midi piano for the basic of songs. ... but you will end up using a lot more of it! Here are a few samples of my stuff that may be slightly "more alternative".

Alchemy: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=620106&songID=10918376

Unfettered (in 5/4): http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=620106&songID=10897342

Movie in My Head: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=620106&songID=8775082

Rhonda: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=620106&songID=9294777 (a little off-key on this one!)

She Was Made to be Played: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=620106&songID=8111400

What is being done by me and what is being done by BIAB is documented in each song at the bottom of the lyrics.

Kevin

P.S. I have never, ever come even close to the 255 bar limit -- and I always "unfold" all of my songs and don't use repeats.

as others stated, you have a full 30 day warranty. You can even resell it after a few months or whatever, the license is transferable and virtually painless

you wait YEARS before buying a piece of software for 130 bucks and seeing for yourself? That's how you grow old...

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Thanks again for the answers! But er... it sounds a bit complicated. I mean, I fully understand what you are saying, but it's a pity you can't place chord changes where you want them, period.

You also say "why you need to biggest package so you have more options of hearing something which fits with what you want" and I was already thinking about that: since I am used to have total control over everything, I wonder if using BiaB won't be come a tedious chore for me because I have to listen to hundreds of styles and RealTracks just to find the one that 'by accident' has the rhythm or whatever I am looking for... This already bothers me with addons like EZ-Drummer, where I usually quickly pick a pattern and edit it to my liking. But 'editing to my liking' isn't really possible with RealTracks. The idea of having to load and audition tons of styles and tracks before I find one that fits, doesn't sound very appealing...

Another thing that I think could bother me is (as far as I can understand) that when I DO find a RealTrack that has the right groove and everything, it might not have the right SOUND I like... When I listen to various demo's, I hear different drums and different basses etc. all the time. What if a certain RealTracks has the SOUND I like but not the groove? And what if I would like to combine various things and wind up with various sounds all over the place...?

Ah, you know what, maybe I should indeed simply order the UltraPlusPAK and see what I can do with it. If the money back guarantee works as advertised, there is nothing to lose, really. Still, spending 469 bucks, even when I can get them back, isn't something I do very easily...

I think you are over thinking this thing . . . my advice is similar to the Nike slogan "Just Do It" and take the 30 days offered to give it a long test drive. If it is not everything you wanted ship it back with no questions from PG Music.

Best of Luck,

No sarcasm or irony intended, just facts. Later, Ray

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you wait YEARS before buying a piece of software for 130 bucks and seeing for yourself? That's how you grow old...

EXCELLENT point Avatars!

If someone is looking at Biab to create exact covers of classic songs, that's not going to happen. Biab is too generic for that, Real Band however is a whole other thing. I've posted many descriptions of how you can do very cool stuff with RB, just search my username.

Bob

Alberto, Are you still here?

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Alberto, Are you still here?

Couple of days working, but back again for the important stuff