I am a guitar player but haven't played much in the last decade. I am blowing the dust off my gear and start practicing again and considering BIAB for backing tracks etc. I'm curious to know what others are using for equipment as I have never used software for backing tracks, am old school jammed to cassette tapes :-). I am pretty technical, work in hi tech for a living, so am looking forward to learning this program and all it can do. What are you using for audio interfaces for playback? I am also interested in doing some recording, possibly including vocals. Your insight and recommendations are appreciated. Any pointers to online reading material or forums that might help me would be great.

Some of us put our system info in our signature (at the bottom of each post; go to My Home & Settings above to create yours), or in their Profile (where I have mine; click on my name on the upper left).

If you don't have any good sound card (just the built-in one, which should be disabled), then the M-Audio Fast Track is well-regarded around here, but you will get a bunch of valid recommendations if you give us a budget.

BIAB would be really great for you to practice and create backing tracks. RealBand is a free program that comes with BIAB that gives you a DAW (digital audio workstation) for recording on top of your BIAB songs.

When you get the program set up and come back with specific questions, I think you will find this user forum is pretty friendly and quite knowledgeable. For things like soundcard recommendations, or microphones, post in the Off-Topic Forum here. Give us your system info, and perhaps some alternatives we can help you decide between, and your budget.

Matt, appreciate your response. I was planning to use my Dell 6420 laptop to run BIAB, but not sure now since you mentioned the sound card. Do others use laptops and if so, do the on board sound cards work ok or is there another way to upgrade using something external? I'm trying to learn about this before I make my purchase. As for budget, I would like to keep it light while I ramp back into it, maybe $500 or so beyond the cost of BIAB.

Yes, many good sound cards like the Fast Track use a USB connection. I'll let someone who uses BIAB on a laptop give a better answer, but it won't be a problem.

Hi 68jcode??

Biab is a wonderful tool for creating your own backings and even more so with advent of the real tracks and drums and the new upgrade. You can achieve a really professional sound and backing on par with many of the download backings and tapes, cd's that are available and it's also a fun learning tool an dmore to the point they will be your own work to a degree.
When I was forced to retire coz of medical reasons I had more time to give to my home music studio and guitars and have spend 8 or so years trial and error and wasted a lot of money with various bits of equipment multitracks,amps stompboxes and effects, you name it. In the end I have settled for a PC based recording studio and what I have now is.
PC W7 64bit - Cakewalks V-20 Studio USB interface - with Cakewalk speakers. A Zoom G3 USB amp/effects guitar unit. a TC Helicon vocal voicetone. A Korg x50 Midi Synth, various other bits an bobs. I have Sonar X1 but I mostly use the Guitar Tracks software that comes with the V-20 for recording as it is not too complex. The V-20 is a fantastic sound card module/mixer, does everything I need with all the inputs and outputs required.
Of course at the heart of things is biab where it all usually starts after I come up with any composition ideas messing with the acoustic guitar, or even just with biab.
Everyone will have a different setup according to their requirements but this works for me and at long last I think I am happy with the sound and setup. Everything takes up so much less space than physical equipment. Guitars are still real though although must get rid of a couple of them - smile.
Best Wishes. Jeff

Hello 68jcode,

I have a small project studio where BIAB is one of my production tools.

Rather than writing about it, maybe you'd like to listen to some newly finished tracks from my client's CD. I just posted them in the "Showcase" forum thread. The link there will take you to the page with 9 BIAB tracks.

My THREAD in SHOWCASE FORUM

You can click on the "Studio Photo" link at the top of the web page to see my set up. Or you can click on the studio URL at the bottom of my post to go directly to my studio web site.

BIAB has generated over $5000 for me over the last 12 months. I'm a big fan of BIAB !!

Ed

If all you're going to do is make backing tracks and not record the internal card will be just fine. The new internal cards do playback quite well. It's in the recording were they lack. Get your feet wet before spending money on an interface.

Appreciate the replies, good info. Jblue7, your setup looks good, about the scope of what I would be looking at as I gear up. The V-20 looks like a good piece of gear for the price and I have always like Roland gear. Ed, thanks for sharing the tracks, sounds very good, looking forward to getting started with BIAB. John, I do plan to do some recording, so I think a sound card upgrade is needed. I agree with your advice on getting my feet wet first, I feel like I still have a lot of research and learning to do before making hardware purchases. I only want to buy something once!

Hi Jcode,
Glad the info was helpful, yes wish I had only had to buy things once although I did sell my unused equipment without too much of a loss if any in some cases, good old ebay.
One thing I forgot to mention was that the V-20 apart from Guitar Tracks comes with a BOSS/Roland VG amp/effects module which I think is pretty good and so easy to use. Used it all the time until iI recently got the new G3. The Cakewalk site has lot's of info, best to read & watch the videos and everything you can before committing as we all need different requirements. I tended to plunge into things.
If I can be of any help just let me know.
--------------------------------
Nice studio set up and website ED,
I'm going to listen to some of the songs later today
Regards All. Jeff

Welcome aboard . . .

Although I am sure they are better soundcards out there I have been running BIAB for live gigs from my laptop soundcard for years now and have no issues. Now I do very little recording, just some sample CD's and mp3s for my website so a better soundcard might be more important for recording. Also keep in mind that with the quality of BIAB being what it is you may not want to put your tracks on a CD and opt to save them to the hardrive and run them from there.

Hope this helps.

Later,

How about sound playback, what are you guys using for the playback output? Where I plan to do some recording, I would think some studio monitors would be ideal, what do you suggest for amplifier for monitors? The other option would be to output through a small PA, but I don't want to purchase both.

Hi Jcode,
I find my Cakewalk/Roland MA-150 monitor active speakers the best I have tried so far, a good all round sound for PC mp3 music and music production. Even impressed how good the Guitar sounds through them via the V-20. Loud enough for me but you may need something of more ampage. They also have outputs to go to additional speakers.
Jeff

86jcode,

Dont forget hiqh quality "studio" headphones.
Several members recommended these to me.

Yesterday, my wife asked me your not bothering me, why are you
putting on your headphones. Answer, their quality far exceeds
the sound from my AR Studio Partner monitors.(which are no slouches)

http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/products/product.asp?catID=5&subID=39&prodID=155

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/97718-REG/Audio_Technica_ATH_M40.html

Another member purchased his from Amazon for about same price. I've just had
really good luck with B&H.

Good Luck !

68jcode,

Good topic. I think you'll see that people use all kinds of different setups. I use a Line 6 UX2 - a USB interface that allows up to 2 instruments and 2 mics to be input, also has software effects and amp simulations (lots of fun to play with, lots of different effects available). Sound output is thru the UX2, and I just play thru a set of 2.1 speakers, but you can output thru whatever you'd like - headphones, a PA, a stereo amp (several folks on here use old stereo recievers). It sounds like you'd do well with a USB interface, and there's lots of good options on the market. Look at number of inputs you'll need/want, software extras (like amp simulations and effects). Lots of helpful folks on this forum, so if you have specific questions, ask.

Bruce

I use the M-Audio Fast Track Pro on one computer and an internal Mark of the Unicorn PCI card in the other.

I play into the M-Audio to create and overdub using Real Band. As you move ahead you will likely leave BIAB behind quickly and move to Real Band, which is a 48 track sequencer (in 2000's language, a Digital Audio Workstation). My system takes a turn at this point that many other don't, as I move that song file to the second computer where I then feed it out to the MOTU hardware, which is patched into my mixer, and I mix on the mixer and feed it back to the first computer where I record the final mix (what I call "printing").

For room sound, I have 2 Wharfedale powered monitors. Everything runs through a patch bay so I can send this to that or that to the other. I just painted and reorganized the studio and I will get pictures up when I finish wiring and all. Both PCs are 3.2ghz dual core with 4 gig of RAM in one and 2 in the other. The one I mix through doesn't need the horsepower as the one I write on.

BIAB is a great tool to create backgrounds to sing and play over. RB is going to give you more options to expand. The service is great and the forums are full of knowledgeable people who are willing to help. Not a "take a number" company at all like the big boxes who say "send and email" and you hear from them in 4 days.

Yes Seeker good thought. A good pair of heaphones are essential, I have heard that the technica phones are great. I use Sennheiser's. I have a pair of HDR 140's wireless ones which are quite good although I prefer the HD201's when recording. Great for the price too.
I also have the Line-6 UX2 Studio Bruce and also some other LIne-6 equipment, a nice bit of kit along with POD Farm, although I am in the process of trying to sell it since moving over to the V-20. Would like to keep it but don't really need 2 interfaces and VG packages. The V-20 is more geared up to incorporate guitar recording and mixing with your DAW killing 2 birds with one stone so to speak.
It's interesting to hear what others are using to create their music along with BIAB.
regards. Jeff

Some pictures of my stuff.

This photo is the Dell where I actually do the writing in Real Band. This one has the dual screens because I will often have several windows open and needed the real estate. This is also the one where I print onto Adobe Audition. This also shows the 2 Wharfedale speakers.



This is the mixdown table. The Real Band computer feeds out through the M-Audio interface and into a Mark of the Unicorn unit that allows me to take each (assigned) track into a channel of the Mackie mixer you see. That allows me to mix with sliders on a mixer. That is also looped through the 2 digital reverb units you see in the rack so I can use different reverbs on different instruments. Eventually I may loop the other 2 reverbs in but not right now. There is also the dual 31 band EQ and a limiter I rarely use. In the right hand rack you see a patch bay. That allows me to route anything to anything, including mixing in the 4 keyboards you see in the next photo. I use this rig for playback and send it back to the first computer for printing. The Peavey mixer is just so I can hear in the room when I am mixing down to print, as at that time the Mackie is routed to the M-Audio and not feeding the speakers.



This image just shows the keyboards I use. They are all Ensoniq. Top left is an SQ-1. Bottom left is an ESQ-1. Top right is an EPS 16+ sampler. Bottom right is a KS32. They all go to the patch bay and when I want to add something manually I can just add it to the mix on the Mackie by patching channel 11,12,13, or 14 from the patch bay to the mixer. That is used mainly for sweetening layers like vocals, etc. With it patched this way, I can also route whatever external instrument to the first computer when recording so it is tracked. Or I can just layer during print if I don't care about it being in the file. Behind the left stack you see the drum machine (Roland 707) and a vocoder. That laptop is there because I was chatting with someone and I never use my music computers for internet while using them for music.

Wow nice gear. The colour of the walls reminds me of old Cleveland Browns helmets.

I have a keyboard stand like yours. The cheap one I got because one of the rubber things was missing. I'm missing lots myself, so we resemble each other.

I think I have that stand on the right also. Works for me ..
If seeker is talking about the ATh m40 f/s headphones, I think you'll notice a bit of difference from the 201s. I do. And I like it. I own a couple pair now. Like them better than the m50 that costs twice as much.

Actually gold and black is more Stillers, and many people here have teased me about that already. That black racing stripe around the room may have been too "Pittsburgh"...

Browns helmet orange was TOO bold though....

The opposite wall has an alcove that will get a love seat as soon as I find one at the local thrift store. There was one last month for like $10 that would have been perfect but I had no way to get it home then and they will not hold it. Oh well. I will find one.

You can actually find chair and cane tips that will replace the tips for the stand. I super glued them on because I got tired of them coming off. I also have the old Ultimate Support A frame style that holds 3 but there is no reason to pull it out.

eddie1261

"Looks like" you could use some wall treatments. Your mixing position looks very "live". If you clap your hands and you can hear "reverb/echo" . . . room treatments will help a lot. This is specially true for any recording environment if you record.

For everyone:

A good STUDIO Headphone is an ABSOLUTE MUST !! Buy one that was DESIGNED for STUDIO use and spend at least $100 on one. AVOID consumer and DJ models. Average consumer models are usually NOT designed with a flat frequency response. DJ models have a heavy hump in frequencies that help you hear the headphone in a loud ambient environment . . . like a night club. My personal choice is a Sony 7509. I know this headphone intimately because I've used this model for many years.

Everyone can hear. There are far fewer number of us who has LEARNED TO LISTEN. Yes, CRITICAL listening ability IS AN ACQUIRED TALENT . . . and it takes as much time, effort and PRACTICE to develop this talent as it takes to become a good guitarist.

Everything we have ever heard in our life time is a result of the sound source and ITS REACTION to the environment. This is the difference WHY you sound different in the bathroom compared to the living room.

If you do not have a properly "treated" Listening room (where you mix your music), the headphone eliminates the "environment" to a minimum. The only "environment" left is the air space between the headphone diver and your eardrum.

Each HEADPHONE sounds different . . . even within the same "model number". The more you pay . . . the less are the minor difference within a "model number". Flatter response you get from a good pair of headphone is usually not as pleasing as listening to a nice stereo system. This is because the "pleasing environment" we are used to has been eliminated. "Consumer" headphones have built-in EQ curve to replicate the "missing environment". So, if you mix to a "consumer" headphone and you play the result in your stereo system, some areas of the EQ curve can become over or under emphasized.

Once you buy your "reference" headphone, its time to start the learning process. This is a LEARNING process and it requires many hours of listening. You need "REFERENCE TRACKS". You need to select CD tracks from your CD collection that you think they SOUND great to you. These tracks don't necessarily be one that you are fond of . . . just the ones with production quality you want to emulate. These reference tracks should contain a wide range of genre. Include few examples from Orchestral music like Movie soundtracks to solo acoustic instruments and everything in between. If you decide to burn a reference CD, make sure you do in a WAV. file format so there are no digital compression is involved.

Now its time to spend MANY HOURS of LISTENING. Concentrate on trying to isolate and listen to each instrument or an area of frequency range. Learn to listen in parts of the sound as well as the whole. eventually you will learn YOUR headphone's sound and begin to trust it.

It is often helpful to listen to a reference track while mixing to check your progress. If the production quality of you mix comes close the the production quality on your reference track . . . then the audio CD you burn should translate well in your stereo system.

If you compare your work against a reference track from a "Big Label CD" . . . through YOUR headphone, then your work should come very close to or equal a commercially produced CD !!

If you can not come close enough to your satisfaction . . . then its time to think about equipment upgrade. Blindly spending money on equipment is hardly a good solution. Always do plenty of research before spending your hard earned money.

Studio Monitors and Control room . . . that is a different can of worms.

Its easier said than done but . . . . . Learn you headphone and trust it.

Hope this helps someone. Just my 2 cents worth.

Ed Layola

PS: click on my studio web site below to see my "studio photos"

Yoda, with anything but the vocals it's all line level so there is no concern about room echo, and when I record vocals I am behind a carpeted partition that sits 90 degrees to an open door. Totally isolated, and covered with a thick moving mat, and it's totally dead.

I WILL indeed have some treatment as I bring players in and record with live mics. I have some foam that I collected from other studio builds I assisted on, and there is also a love seat that gets moved into that room. With angled ceilings, do I need baffling ON the ceiling or where it meets the flat wall? I have seen it both ways. One thought is that on the flat wall it catches sound as it rolls. The other thought is to keep it FROM rolling. Right now though, the room sound is just for me to hear and none of it gets recorded.

It's a fairly small room and not much foam is needed for the ceiling if I put it there.

eddie, you should also have some acoustic treatment in there so you can hear those monitors in the nearfield without room reflection or standing wave probs.

First rule of thumb, that will not break the bank, is to have about 50/50 soft and hard reflection on all six surfaces (six meaning walls, floor and ceiling). One can get away with a lot by hangind tapestries or rugs centered on each wall such that there is a border around them of reflective plaster that is about the same surface area ss the tapestry. A throw rug can account for the floor. Ceilings can be a bit tricky, sometimes hanging netting, etc. can help stop the ceiling ping. And, of course, Bass Traps for that Standing Wave. A nice old couch can be pressed into service, when pulled out away from a flat wall a couple of feet or so. Not precise, but rather amazing what such can do. Pinewood bookshelves (without rattly stuff on 'em.) with books on 'em can also serve as ersatz Helmolz filters on a wall or two of the home studio, breaking up undesirable reflections.

Don't laugh, the original Dreamworks studio used Tapestries as described and they made a helluva lotta movie soundtracks in there.

The good news is that if the Control Room is made to sound good for mix playback, it ought to sound good for the occasional Tracking Session as well.


--Mac

Thanks for all the replies guys, this has been very helpful in getting me up to speed. Last question ( at least for now), what do you guys use to build the midi tracks, the computer keyboard or a midi controller? I assume most are using a midi keyboard, any suggestions appreciated.

Search Keyboard suggestions or recommendations in Forum search box (upper right); there have a been a few threads recently .. lots of input.

Acoustic room treatment and room design philosophy are dime a dozen. Other than the basic acoustic principals, even the professional acoustic designer can differ greatly from one to another. None of them are truly WRONG . . . Some work better than others. The best solution depends on each individual space.

I don,t feel too comfortable giving advice about room acoustics without hearing the actual room, so I won't.

Here are the basics. Your PRIMARY GOAL is to make your MIX POSITION as accurate as possible. That means, at the very least eliminate DIRECT reflection (first order reflection) from reaching your ears at your mix position. Direct reflection from ceiling, side walls and floor needs to be minimized as much as possible. These Surfaces should be acoustically absorbent and not reflective or diffusive.

That usually means an area in all surfaces that are about perpendicular to the monitors for about 4 feet in front of your monitor. This is your critical surface area. Your monitors should be symetrically placed at least 12 to 24 inches from the side and rear walls. The center line of your monitors should converge at the mix position, horizontally and vertically. Your monitors should be pointed right at you. Your mix position should be about 4 to 5 feet in front of the monitors. This generally works for a small room (less than 12'x12' room with a 9' ceiling.) With a larger room, its time to think about moving up to some Mid Field monitors.

If you treat this critical area with foam, use at least a 3" thick foam. If you use carpeting use 2 or 3 layers in the critical area and hang them with about an inch of air space in between them. A single layer carpeting should NOT be glued to the wall. Instead, hang them with at least half inch space from the wall surface. These treatment should absorb frequency above 120 Hz. Most effective for frequency above 600 Hz. Surface treatments are not very effective for frequencies below 300 Hz. Generally, low frequencies are amplified in the corners. Low frequency requires mass. Foam bass traps do help but not a whole lot. A real bass traps are not cheap but you can build them. You can find plans available on the internet.

Once you do this minimal treatment, you will notice an improvement in imaging and clarity. The problem with small room is the small critical listening area. Usually about 24 to 30 inch sphere around the mix position. When you move out of the mix position, you will start to hear standing waves and acoustic distortions. Once in a while due to the room shape, you end up with a bad standing wave at your mix position. If that happens, you might have to re-locate the mix position or introduce a 31 band EQ in the monitor chain.

The wall behind the monitors is usually preferable to be dead.

Myself included, 99% of us can not afford to "build" a studio and have the rooms designed by an architect specializing in building recording studios. So we end up adopting existing spaces.

My control room and the isolation booth used to be an "extra bedroom" that was illegally built into a 2 car garage. Now that its no longer rented and renamed as a hobby room, I didn't have to tear it out.

I prefer rooms that are as dead as possible. I prefer not to hear any short reflection in the control room or the iso booth. When I mix, the first thing I do add "room ambiance" as needed before adding effects. If had larger spaces, I can start thinking about controlling room ambiance. For me, small dead spaces has always been a friend.

The best room treatment you can do, is research. Read about it as much as you can. Then do what your particular room needs. Just compare what you hear in your room against your reference headphone. The room is telling you what it needs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ed

Eddie, loved your pics. It inspired me to clean up my setup . Here is my home studio and my road gear. Actually found a great deal on a 32 inch plasma monitor in B stock at CDW. Brought it howm and no stand in the box so back it went- boy it would have looked great! Otherwise, my modest version of a home recording studio (..aka, spare bedroom )

Home


Road (before addition of VLT..)

Dan is that an old school Epiphone Riviera?

You people with clean studios embarrass me. I have notes and drives laying all over the place.. on my desk right now are three RAM chips, three DVD drives, two hard drives and about 17 CD's ..a few adapters .. PCM adapter with CF card in it ... a pen , and a cup of coffee. Oh, and two soundcards laying behind the stack of drives (I just noticed).

I need to do some straightening up. :embarrassed:

Quote:

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I need to do some straightening up. :embarrassed:

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Rharv, I'll send my wife over - she'll put you to work , hell she makes be dust the cables on the floor...