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Posted By: bjbear More than 4 chords per measure - 02/12/12 05:05 PM
I need to have explained how to enter chords in a given measure on the 3rd beat, the 4th beat and the and of the 4th beat. Can someone help me with this? Thanks.
Posted By: Danna Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/12/12 05:40 PM
Believe it is "chord comma chord"

chord,chord
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/12/12 06:01 PM
Chord comma chord in the second half of cell will get you the chord on beat 3 and beat four. For the 'and' of four, you need one more step.

Go to the first beat of the next measure and do what is called a push of the value of an eighth note. You can do this with the carat character, like this: ^D7. Or you can right-click in the bar, choose 'chord settings', and you will see the choices for push. A push plays the chord earlier, so a push on beat one makes it play on the and of four in the prior measure.

You should check out Help, Index, Pushes and Help, Index, Chord Entry.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/12/12 09:53 PM
I had that problem, and that is why about 10 years ago I invented EXPANDED styles.

The styles are written to be EXPANDED. In other words, each numbered Cell in BiaB becomes a half measure instead of a whole measure. So you can put 8 chords in a measure. Also (and this is more common) you can put a chord on a beat AND the upbeat before the very same beat.

They play well in your EXPANDED song, but since each cell is now only a half measure (2 beats in 4/4 time) you do have to double the tempo. So if your song is to be played at mm=120, double it to 240, EXPAND the song, and it will play perfectly.

To listen to some of my EXPANDED styles, go to http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

Notes
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 12:51 AM
There are two issues going on here. The topic name is, "More than 4 chords per measure".

Notes has presented an excellent solution. There is another less elegant way to work around it that sometimes works, by treating two measures as one and adjusting the tempo and style.

But that isn't needed in the example given by bjbear.

Yes, you are limited to 4 chords per bar in BIAB, but using the push, the chord that is to sound on the 'and' of four appears in the next bar and counts toward the maximum four chords allowed in that next bar.

What you cannot do, in your example, is also have a chord on beat one of the following bar. For that, you need the Expanded styles or some workaround fudging.
Posted By: John Conley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 03:55 AM
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.

Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them. Of course, I have other songs I can do in the meantime.

Usually I'm running things too slow I guess. Circus march??? (I hate that genre, but that's because I have trouble with the speed...on horn. I guess I should have learned it better instead I waited for the first lesson when I was 52.

Soldier on. The Empire is fine. Long live the Queen, but she already did.
Posted By: Cerio Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 07:42 AM
Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.




Having 8 chords per bar would be very useful for writing specific arrangments (or eigth notes patterns) on the bass line, for example. Having more than 256 bars per song would be still more useful to me; When working on new repertoires, I use extensively BIAB to transcribe chords using the audio chord wizard. I must transcribe medleys very often, and very often this kind of song have more than 256 bars. That forces me to use two BIAB files for a single song, wich is a mess (you must open twice the same file in ACW, you can't print both parts on the same sheet, etc, etc...)
Posted By: bjbear Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 08:15 AM
Thank you so much for your help. My experience with that is that then your down beat of 1 is non exsistant. But I will try that again.
Posted By: bjbear Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 08:19 AM
Thank you so very much. I only have 2 questions for you. What does the speed change do to the drum pattern being used? Also, does this only work with the traditional BIB styles, or will it work with the realband styles as well?
Posted By: jford Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 12:19 PM
Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this.



John -

The problem usually isn't that you need 8 chord changes per bar, but that you need a chord change on the "and" of a beat and on the immediately following beat. Still 4 chord changes in the bar, but the chord change on the "and" allows for additional syncopation.

If we even had a "pull" to complement the "push", so that I could delay the chord by half a beat, that would probably solve 90% of the problem.

Of course, to me, the best solution would be to have 8th note resolution, because then notation would look right.

A lot of church hymns have chord changes on the "and" with a different chord on the next beat. One that comes immediately to mind is "Take My Hand" by Thomas A Dorsey. Here's the refrain:




There are others, and as a church musician, this is important to me.

For now, I'll usually just do a hold while I play the "and" chord on the keyboard and then come back in on the downbeat.
Posted By: bjbear Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/13/12 01:57 PM
I of course agree with you about not needing 8chords per measure. Just that it was easier to explain that way. You are correct, I am needing to put a chord on the and of 4 and it was suggested that I just do a push on the 1 of the next measure, which creates an entirely different problem in that there then is no chord on the downbeat of the 1. The other suggestion is to use expand and I haven't been able to make that work, as the drums also double in speed. I guess I just won't do that song. grrrr. lol.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/15/12 05:07 PM
bjbear, my EXPANDED styles will solve your problem.

John, We've done a number of fake books, and the songs that require a chord on a beat and the upbeat before that very same beat are plentiful. Without looking in the books, a few examples of songs that need EXPANDED styles immediately come to mind,
  • Jailhouse Rock (Elvis P),
  • You Really Got Me (Kinks),
  • Sunshine Of Your Love (Cream),
  • Don't Get Around Much Anymore (Ellington),
  • Old Deuteronomy (from Cats),
  • Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend (Marilyn Monroe),
  • Mamma Mia (ABBA),
  • The River Of Creams (Billy Joel),
  • Masquerade (from Phantom),
  • I Only Want To Be With You (Dusty Springfield),
  • Problems (Everly Brothers),
  • Mercy Mercy Mercy (Cannonball Adderly),
  • Yesterdays (Jerome Kern & Otto Harbach),
  • All Around The World (Lisa Stansfield),
  • Frankenstein (Edgar Winter),
  • After The Love Has Gone (Earth Wind & Fire),
  • Baby What A Big Surprise (Chicago),
  • Sir Duke (Stevie Wonder),
  • Dock Of the Bay (Otis Redding),
  • and so on and so on.

You asked for a list, John. Here it is.

Having a chord on the beat and on the upbeat before that very same beat is extremely common in Rock, Jazz and Country music songs. This is the main reason why I invented EXPANDED styles in the first place. Plus I've had a large number of songs that need more than 4 chords per measure, and a couple that actually need all 8.

My EXPANDED styles simply let you do songs that would be impossible to do with the 'normal' styles published by PG and Norton. My styles do not replace any BiaB styles, the add to the available songs you can do and therefore enhance and support the BiaB experience.

If you need them and think they are worth the money, by all means enjoy them, if you don't need them then feel free to ignore them.

Notes
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/16/12 02:48 AM
Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)
Posted By: bjbear Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/16/12 02:47 PM
I understand completely and thank you. However, you made the statement that this does not work for realband styles. Unfortunately, that is what I use exclusively. Oh well.
Posted By: Cerio Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/16/12 09:54 PM
Peter, can I ask if there's any plan of implementing the "More than 4 chords per bar" feature in the future?
Posted By: jford Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/16/12 11:05 PM
Quote:

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago).




Wow, I completely missed (or forgot) this. I guess you really do learn something new every day.

Thanks, Peter!
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/17/12 12:23 AM
First I've seen it, too.
Posted By: MitchC Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/17/12 01:43 AM
So we don't need to buy 'Notes' expanded styles ? Is that what I'm hearing ? Will definately check this out ! Thanks Peter !
Posted By: John Conley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/17/12 03:27 AM
John, I do play, and use band in a box. I have played that tune. I realize Band in a Box does not hit every note the way some want. Neither do the musicians in the bands I play in. The example you gave does baffle me.

Are you telling me you want band in a box to play metronomically each piece, with every note on something like the page of a hymnal smacked just as written? That's my music notation software, I can even make it click to help counting.

If you make an mp3 out of the passage does it sound wrong? Who is bothered by it. I am trying to imagine a 'modern' church, my version of that ends about 1969, but there was an organ, a vibraphone, a piano and a 30 member choir. I was often on the piano. (the bench)

Now in that case the pianist stayed off the organ, and I tried my best to put in a fatter sound. Sometimes I was out for a bar or two.

I have no idea how big an issue this has become I guess. I see it all the time. It bothers this person, or that one. Now, I can assure you that in none of the hundreds of music books here, that I have never seen a tune where I need more than 4 chords. And if I did, it would be 3 seconds to get around it.

I drop notes all the time, and chords. In fact I was taught to drop a lot of tied notes, that's for breathing.
Posted By: jford Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/17/12 02:37 PM
I don't want to argue - you asked for an example and I provided one. I can find more, but I doubt I'll spend the time doing that.

The song I posted is also played slowly, so that one chord matters. It's not a matter of having more than 4 chords per bar (generally), it's a matter of being able to have a chord on the off-beat and a new chord on the very next beat. I think Bob Norton posted a number of songs where that would be the case.

Sure, I can get around it...that's not the point. The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat. I've seen it in a number of choir pieces right before they modulate to a new key.

I suspect that this what most people are asking for and would mostly be happy with.

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.
Posted By: Cerio Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/17/12 04:11 PM
Quote:

The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat.




Exactly


Quote:

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.




Having more than 4 chords per bar would be a much better and easier solution, in my opinion: for example, you could very easily write custom 8th notes bass lines and arrangments, and you wouldn't be limited to the 4 chords per bar "resolution" when printing chord sheets, wich means that actually (to my knowledge) you can't print chords on the off beat (in fact, I write them by hand)
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/18/12 03:15 PM
Although PG Music did thankfully include a way to expand their MIDI styles a decade after I invented EXPANDED styles, I think you will find that the Norton Music EXPANDED styles will work much better than expanding any 'normal'. Why? They were written to be EXPANDED and to sound right when EXPANDED. Of course I'm biased, I wrote them myself. But you can judge for yourself by listening to the free EXPANDED mp3 demos at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

No, you don't need to buy my styles, but you might want to. Almost all the people who do buy my styles come back for more. That's a good sign.

Notes
Posted By: axeplayer Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/18/12 07:22 PM
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)




Thanks very much for this Peter, I was ready to splash out on a few of the Norton Expanded styles until I saw your post.

Thanks very much again for letting us know as I wasn't aware of this feature:)

Axey
Posted By: maiki Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/18/12 08:30 PM
Peter,

Thanks a lot for the great product, which I first bought in the DOS version, before there was Windows. Also, I think it is great that you, the creator of BIAB and CEO of PGMusic, participate in these forums, interacting directly with users.

Regarding the problem under discussion, isn't it about time that this limitation of BIAB be fixed? One should not have to jump through hoops and do complicated workarounds to make it work, and it should work in RealTracks as well.

There have been so many complaints about this limitation for years. Wouldn't it be a good idea to work on fixing it as a major goal for now? (Hopefully in an update for BIAB 2012?) Every year there are now 1001 more Real Tracks, more features, etc., but I think that fixing a serious limitation like that would be more important than any of those.


Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)


Posted By: maiki Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/18/12 09:09 PM
It is not that it is common to have songs with eight chord changes per 4/4 bar, throughout the song. In fact, I cannot think of one.

However, it is not so uncommon that in a particular measure of the song, one might need more than four chords in that measure.

Passing chords, for example. On beat four of a song, there might be eighth note chord changes, two chords in that beat, followed by a new chord in beat 1 of the next measure.

Or, there could be an important part of a song, where there are quarter note triplets on beat three and four, a new chord for each (could also be considered passing chords), I. E. three chords evenly spaced over two beats. One should be able to do that without complex workarounds, and also with RealTracks.
Posted By: bjbear Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/19/12 02:36 PM
I hope you didn't think I was arguing with you sir. I certainly am only trying to learn. Thank you for your help.
Posted By: raymb1 Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/19/12 03:40 PM
One song would be "Sophisticated Lady". For the melody only, bars 2 and 4. Bar 2: Dbm7/Gb7, Cm7/F7, Bm7/E7, Bbm7/Eb7. Bar 4: Am7b5/D7b9, Abmb5/Db7b9, Gm7b5/C7b9, F#m7b5/B7b9. There are more subs than this example for those measures. Later, Ray
Posted By: babarton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/20/12 10:46 PM
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)





This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)

Bruce
Posted By: tonnie Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/21/12 07:02 PM
14/2/2010 I posted the following suggestionon how to enter 5 chords in one 4/4 bar.


Re: More than one chord change per beat? [Re: raymb1]
#262386 - 14/02/10 03:32 AM

If you want to add a quater note triplet chord movement, you can change that half of a 4/4 bar to a 3/4 bar and the remainder to a 2/2 bar. Do not forget to change the tempo of the 3/4 bar so that 3/4 equals 2/4 tempo-wise. E.g. you want to use a triple chord movment Dm7 up to Fm7 (Dm7, D#m7, Em7 >Fm7), the Dm7, D#m7, Em7 is the triplet, change that part of the bar to a 3/4 bar.

Good Luck!
Tonnie
Posted By: cressjl Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/24/12 01:06 PM
I fully agree with you, John. In fact, while composing a Christmas chorus in a contemporary Christian style I ran into this problem. I struggled with pushes, expanded styles, bar/tempo tweaking...just could not get there from here. I finally gave up on the chord progression and dropped the gloss altogether...sounded lame, too lame. I didn't perform the song; it sits on the shelf until next Christmas, maybe.

A lot of contemporary Christian music (following pop culture nowadays [whatever happened to pop culture borrowing from the church...sigh...?]) has very deliberate syncopated chord progression inserted at specific locations in the song for emphasis. It would be where a push would ordinarily be considered, but it's not a push. Its hard to describe; in fact, I would be hard pressed to point out an example by simply hearing it, but once attempting to implement it in BIAB, the problem becomes obvious.

About the chorus, I will probably ditch BIAB, switch over to RealBand (thank God for RealBand!), and head to my studio. I would have to admit that RealBand is becoming essential in producing my end products; BIAB alone isn't cutting it.

On the other hand, let me say that BIAB is still an absolutely amazing tool!

-----------------------------------------------
Wow, on a reread, I wonder why I would ditch BIAB, but still call it an amazing tool?! Using BIAB alone without having to use RealBand is what I mean. I also will have to record live to provide instrumentation that creates the glosses that I need. I was also responding to John Ford's post specifically, BTW.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/24/12 02:50 PM
I think BiaB is the best at what it does. Sometimes I swear it's magic.

However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway.

I know PG Music is concerned about backwards compatibility with their songs and styles, and I applaud them for that, but if a style modification is necessary, a file conversion app would work. PG has done this once before and Microsoft has done this as well. They are MIDI enhancements as I love MIDI and it is the core of the program itself.

I've entered most of these in the wishlist:

In addition to allowing at least 2 chords per beat (8 chords per 4/4 measure) I suggest:

1) Resolution of at least 240ppq preferably user selected to 960ppq and this includes the StyleMaker

2) Support for multiple synths, at least 16

3) More than 5 instruments, 7 would be nice, more would be better

4) Variable length endings up to 8 or 12 bars selectable in the StyleMaker

5) Chord entry dialog box that would include check boxes (not radio buttons) for all the scale tones from root through 13 with another trio of radio buttons to the right of each scale tone to natural, flat or sharp that tone (natural being the default). That way you could do diminished triads, major 9 omit 3, minor 3 add 4, and any chord the user wants. We often run into chords in fake books than cannot be entered in BiaB.

6) Long and short rolls in the StyleMaker and a way to assign either to the playback grid

7) An option to switch sub-styles without adding a roll

8) A way to assign patterns in the style maker so that if one is chosen, complementary patterns would also be chosen. For example, if a drum roll with quarter note triplets was selected, a bass line with quarter note triplets could automatically also be chosen. Another example, if a drum roll with a rest on the 4th beat was chosen, patterns written to complement this drum roll with either a rest or held note on that same beat would be chosen.

9) Have the details that go into the Style Picker Window built into the style itself instead of an ls3 file and include a dialog box to enter the information

10) Long file names for the styles

11) Have the default volumes on all parts return after each song - so if a style changes the volume, it will return to the default when the song is done

12) Have the pitch bend, and continuous controllers return to a user set default after each song so if the previous style left them altered, the next song would return to the default

13) Add riff based patterns to the bass style

14) Fix the 2 and 1 beat styles so that a relative weight of 9 works on them. Right now if I do 4 different beats on the 1 beat row with a "fill" bar mask and a different note pattern for each beat, BiaB will mix them up when playing back (pattern for beat 1 might end up on beat 2, 3 or 4, etc.)

15) Increase the number of columns in the StyleMaker from 30 to 32, after all it is a multiple of 4 and 8 measures of single beat patterns would fit in there perfectly

16) Support for accelerando and ritardando with a resolution of at least one beat per tempo change (preferably more)

17) Native support for uncommon time signatures like 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, etc. without having to kludge a work-around in BiaB's grid.

18) A button that directs the user to Norton Music's Style Demo Page (hey! a guy can dream, can't he? <wink/grin>)

Many of these suggestions have been in place in my old pre Win95 copy of Master Tracks Pro (sequencer). If these things were standard in the 8.3 filename days, IMHO it's about time PG Music updated the core MIDI section of BiaB to include them.

MIDI can be just as expressive as the Real Track right out of the box (without further editing), but as long as the MIDI section of BiaB is stuck in the Windows 3.1 days it will stay the way it is. Right now, I have to export everything to a sequencer and take the very good output of BiaB and edit to turn it into something excellent.

Now I admit, I'm on the outside looking in so what seems possible to me may be terribly impractical in reality.
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/24/12 03:24 PM
))) However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway

FYI, Band-in-a-Box already works well with Windows 7 now, and also works with "beyond" (Windows 8 beta).
Posted By: musiclover Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/24/12 04:14 PM
Quote:

))) However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway

FYI, Band-in-a-Box already works well with Windows 7 now, and also works with "beyond" (Windows 8 beta).




I have to congratulate PGmusic and Peter for the fact that it doesn't write to the windows registry. How many backup images have people installed only to find out that they have to reinstall all the programs that weren't part of the backup image.

No such problem with band in a box.

Sometimes I am so glad that its PG that is developing and selling this program at a modest price, if it was other people who had developed it, we would no doubt be paying through the nose for it.

musiclover
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/25/12 02:58 PM
That's good to know Peter. Thanks.

I'm still using XP but one of my machines is getting flaky so I'll be getting a Win7 laptop.

Since you don't write in the registry, could I just move the entire BiaB folder to the Programs folder of Win7?

Notes
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/25/12 05:59 PM
Bob, don't put it Program Files (either one, if 64 bit OS) because of Windows permissions. Any other folder is fine.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/26/12 08:16 PM
Thanks. So I can put it in C:\BB with no problem.

That's the problem with my ThinkPad computers, they last about 8 years before they start going weird on me so I get behind on a lot of software - of course that is a blessing as well!!!

The ThinkPad I bought years ago (it is still a pre-lenovo IBM machine and still says "Designed For XP" on it) didn't get past the splash screen about a month ago. Turned off and on again and it booted. Once could be a fluke so I watched but didn't worry about it. Then a week ago it did it again. I keep full backups via a Ghost Disk Image but that won't do me much good if I can't replace the HD, and it's probably old technology ATA not SATA or whatever the alphabet soup is.

So I ran the diagnostics on the motherboard and hard drive and everything passed (PC Doctor comes with ThinkPads). The HD was fragmented so I de-fragged, and it's booted every time since then. So I'll be keeping an eye on it. In the meantime I duplicated the most important data files on an external drive.

It's my secondary computer, so if it goes belly-up, I'll get a Win7 computer for my main workhorse, and demote the Lenovo ThinkPad I'm typing on now to do those secondary tasks.

It'd be nice to have a shiny new computer, but I keep them until they die. I'd rather spend the money on musical toys like guitars, saxophones, wind synthesizer modules, and so on.

Notes
Posted By: martin57 Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/26/12 11:12 PM
Go on Bob splah out on a few new windows 7 machines,
as according to this website you can well afford it!!

http://www.manta.com/g/mm0ym3d/robert-norton



Martin
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 12:27 AM
Quote:

Go on Bob splah out on a few new windows 7 machines,
as according to this website you can well afford it!!

http://www.manta.com/g/mm0ym3d/robert-norton



Martin




Quote:
About:
Sophisticats in Fort Pierce, FL is a private company which is listed under entertainers. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $500,000 to $1 million and employs a staff of 1 to 4.


My response

I WISH !!!

If this was true, I'd have that mid 1960s King Super20 SilverSonic tenor sax with full pearls and gold leaf on the bell!!!

So c'mon pals, let's make this happen. Hire the Sophisticats for more money than the market down here will allow!!!
Posted By: martin57 Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 02:20 PM


You'll have to work a lot harder though Bob before you catch up with PGmusic.

From the same site

"Pg Music Inc is a private company categorized under Computer Services and located in Victoria, BC, Canada. Our records show it was established in 1989 and incorporated in . Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $2,330,880 and employs a staff of approximately 21. Companies like Pg Music Inc usually offer: Adaptive Software Development, Abc Computer Repair, Computer Software Development, Collaborative Software Development and Agile Software Development With Scrum.

Now back to budget how I am going to spend MY $350 per week meagre amount compared to you rich guys!!



Martin
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 06:34 PM
>>> It'd be nice to have a shiny new computer, but I keep them until they die. I'd rather spend the money on musical toys like guitars, saxophones, wind synthesizer modules, and so on.

Keeping your main PC until it 'dies', and making it a lower priority than musical 'toys' seems like a bad idea to me Bob. Don't you make your living from PC based music?

You point out in your messages that you have 'tried' audio, loops, RealTracks etc. but gave up. Most people that are getting great results with audio are using modern PC's. If you tried RealTracks on that old laptop, of course you'd have problems and annoyances, because that laptop has a tiny hard drive, slow CPU, low RAM, single core etc. etc.

If I was forced to use a 10 year old laptop, I might be saying "MIDI is great, audio sucks!" too...



Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 08:48 PM
<<Keeping your main PC until it 'dies', and making it a lower priority than musical 'toys' seems like a bad idea to me Bob. Don't you make your living from PC based music?>>

True, but perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough. I sometimes don't type exactly what I should in the way that is easy for everyone to understand - I'm too close to the subject

My main computer is much newer, multi-core Intel, and lots of RAM. It has made for Win7 on it, but Win7 was brand new then and ThinkPads gave me an option to boot either in Win7 or XP, so I chose XP because after the Vista problems, I wasn't about to try Win7 since it had no reputation yet. The trade magazines were saying it was much better than Vista, but when things are pretty new, the trades are often overly enthusiastic. Sometimes the cutting edge is the bleeding edge. I'd like to wait at least until the first service pack has been released before I go with a new OS.

So while I will keep this computer until it goes belly-up, it won't be my main computer for that long. By the time it's time to 'meet its maker' it will be demoted to a function that my iPod can do, simply play mp3 files. And all those mp3 files will be backed up in multiple places, including 'the cloud' to be sure that if something happens, I can still make my living playing music.

My computers go from main, then get demoted to secondary status, the things that are more play than work and apps that I don't want on my main work computer. After that they get demoted again to a mp3 player for my backing tracks on stage, and for the last years of their life, they get demoted as a backup computer on stage. With the average life of a ThinkPad to be 8 years, that gives me about 2 years of life as a main computer.

As far as being a mp3 player on stage, my 2002 ThinkPad will still do that just fine, but it started to develop horizontal lines on the screen when moving the lid, so I retired that one years ago. High quality and high bit-rate MP3 files played through a good MP3-Audio interface and then into a nice PA system doesn't take much processing power. I suppose my old Win98 computer would do that well if I still had it (stripped everything but the OS and gave it to a nephew).

I have a feeling it's time to buy another one and make the chain of demotions. But since the 'secondary' computer is giving me that kind of trouble, I might not demote it and take a chance since the stage computer and the stage computer backup are not giving me any problems at all. Perhaps I'll play with Linux on it, that could be fun.

So I'm looking on the Lenovo site and doing some research to make sure I will be getting what I need. Win7 has been out long enough and has proven itself. I may as well get it before the brand new Win8 comes out. I hate brand new OS's because they are often buggy until they get the second or third service pack.

And actually, my main source of income is as a gigging musician http://www.s-cats.com. The BiaB aftermarket line is my 'moonlighting' job ("daylighting"??). And I love it. It brings in enough so that during the slow summer season I don't have to travel to keep making the mortgage payments. And I must say I've become a bit dependent on the "extra" income it brings in. If I wasn't moonlighting on BiaB I'd be doing something else musical to keep me here in the summer (I love Florida summers). If BiaB was my primary source of income, I'd probably have 100 style disks and 100 fake disks out by now.

Besides, the age of the computer should not affect the sound of the Real Tracks anyway. Audio is audio, I use a USB-Audio interface and play them back through a small pro PA set, and I admit they sound great. The small PA system is my back-up system in case the one for gigging fails. Samson Mixer, BBE Sonic Maximizer, QSC Power Amp, 3 way speakers.

The only problem I have with Real Tracks, Fruity Loops and other pre-recorded audio software is that it doesn't give me the ability to edit the instruments as much as I like to. Say if I wanted to change a couple of notes in the middle of a guitar part to insert a song-specific lick, it would be difficult if I had a similar guitar, similar amp, similar FX, similar recording studio, similar playing style and darn near impossible without all those things.

Perhaps I'm a minority, but I like to play with my musical software tools. And I like to play with them a lot. Audio loops allow some playing, but mostly cut and paste. I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

So RTs are a feature I don't use. There are other BiaB features I don't use, and that's OK, others enjoy them. I don't use the melodist, soloist, lyrics, Juke Box, and a few others. I mainly use it because it is the best audio-accompaniment program currently out here (and has been for decades), I use the harmony feature a lot, the piano roll from time to time and although I don't use it as a notation editor (I have Encore) I do refer to the notation windows a lot.

To me the features I don't use are like stations on the radio dial I don't care to listen to. They are for other ears. The features in BiaB that are not for me, are enjoyed by other people, and that's fine with me. I like BiaB for the features that I use, and I use them quite a bit.

And I show BiaB to a lot of people and send them to pgmusic.com. I do one-nighters mostly for yacht clubs, country clubs, and the retirement communities here in Florida (best pay, shortest hours) and often the person who is now retired and wants to start playing music again comes up and wants to know about computer music. I keep a copy of BiaB on my stage computers, and after the show will give them a tour and send them to you. I never tell them about real vs. midi track or anything else, I leave it up to them to decide what they are going to use.

As long as you don't abandon the MIDI part, I'm a happy camper.
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 09:52 PM
>>> I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

Other people ** can ** customize them Bob. And I show you how in this video.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316518&an=0&page=2#Post316518

It's as simple as this
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.

- Before you reject this idea (and continue to tell others that it can't be done), have you ever tried it? I have, many times, and it works great. Other who have responded to the thread have reported similar results.
Posted By: GHinCH Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/27/12 10:13 PM
After the power supply unit quit on my old computer (600 MHz, 1 GB RAM) I invested a little money in what I have now:
an i7-2600k 64bit, 4-core processor with 8 threads, and (only) 8 GB RAM plus a gamer-motherboard with overclocking capabilities.

I won't use overclocking, but the other features make it interesting:
It uses the processors graphics -- hence no graphics adaptor needed, since I don't play such games. It is sufficient for TV and office and music software.
It may hold up to 32 GB memory.
It already has USB3 ports on board for fast connections with harddrives.

I will expand on RAM when 8-GB-chips are available at reasonable prices.


No, I won't go back to the old system. Even my previous laptop with 2.2 GHz and 4 GB RAM had the hiccoughs when using more than two RealTracks and four different chords per measure.

Guido
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/28/12 01:10 AM
Quote:

>>>
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.<...>




I watched/listened to the video demo and definitely understand how to do it. However, the MIDI bass sound did not match the tone of the RT bass. It was harder, had more edge and less bottom. It wasn't necessarily a bad bass, just a different bass. In that case I would find it acceptable for the audience, but the tone change would bug me. Could I live with that? I suppose. But if it were me, unless I had an acoustic bass that matched the tone of the RT bass much better than that, I'd probably re-record the entire bass part as a MIDI bass so I wouldn't get the tonal change. I could live with that easier. But that's just me I guess.

So, I can see how that is done, but I cannot see how my real sounding MIDI sax or guitar is going to have the same tone as the RT guitar or sax. After all, how many guitar tones are there? How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones. Do I want the guitar or sax to abruptly sound like a real but different player for those few notes?

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.

Or guitar, I have many different clean guitar sounds on my MIDI modules, but there are probably thousands of others that I don't have. What are the chances that from the dozens of guitar sounds on my modules one is going to be an exact match to the one on the RT, guitar model, pickup selection, tone controls, amp, fx. etc.?

And if I happen to have a great bass that works even better than the example, what are the chances my guitar, sax, piano and/or other instruments would work too?

I'm thinking that if I am going to punch in a few notes of any instrument part, and get it to sound very close to the instrument on the track that I'm doing the punch-in on, I should have a similar instrument, similar microphone, similar FX unit, and so on. This makes sense to my way of thinking.

I've been on a recording session where the singer came back the next day to punch in over a mistake. The same singer, same microphone, same vocal booth, but the engineer didn't have all the settings recorded (local recording studio). The punch in sounded weird, almost like a feminine version of the same singer so they tweaked and re-punched and tweaked and re-punched. They ended up re-doing the entire vocal track because they couldn't get it to match.

So if that can happen, how can I expect a match without the same instrument and recording chain as the RT player?

Am I over-analyzing this?

Personally I don't see how I can get an exact match, or one close enough for my ears.

If I'm wrong about this, please educate me. This would be a great tool in my musical took kit.

Thanks.
Posted By: Cerio Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/28/12 01:59 PM
Quote:

How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones.




I disagree. A professional bassist can get a lot of different sounds from the same instrument, let alone using different instruments, amps, etc. In fact, I think bass can be one of the most difficult instruments to recreate via MIDI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb3QzDWJ7RU&feature=related



Quote:

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.




Do you know Celmony Melodyne? I think it's a killer combination with Realtracks, and could be what you're looking for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YEebBN2ok
Posted By: Mac Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/28/12 02:37 PM
We will always have those among us who don't necessarily like encompassing changes in the way technologies are done. Grampa wouldn't fly in the airplane, Great-Grandpa wouldn't ride in anything that didn't have a horse in front of it, etc.

So what? Such does not in any way detract from the lives and accomplishments of either, right?

I think that it is just another way in which the wondrous diversity of humankind is manifested.

Bob, you'd make better arguments if you made 'em shorter, just one man's observation. If you don't want to, then say you don't want to and leave it at that, its good in my way of looking at it, if for no other reason than it is yours.


--Mac
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/28/12 04:08 PM
You have some good points Mac.

I'm not a Luddite by any stretch of the imagination. I was one of the first musicians around here to go computer (other musicians were telling me I'd be putting musicians out of work with that thing). I bought BiaB back when it was Atari/DOS/Mac-Motorola. I was the first sax player I know to do wind synth. If I waited too long to jump on the Internet, I never would have gotten the domain name nortonmusic.com

I love new technology, although I usually wait until version 2 comes out to embrace it (learned that from past experience - the cutting edge can be the bleeding edge).

If and when I can edit audio as good or better than I can with MIDI, I'll make the switch. Until then I'll use the tool that allows me to express myself and make my music the way that it pleases my personal tastes.

Virtually every technology has it's benefits and limitations. I've never dissed the better tone benefit of the RTs or audio loops. On the other hand, I also believe in the benefit to more completely and seamlessly edit MIDI. We each have to find the balance that suits us personally. Right now, for me it's MIDI, the ability for me to more completely put my musical expression in the piece is more important than the finer points of tone. When audio editing gets to that point (and it probably will in the future) I'll switch.

I have an afternoon gig today, but tomorrow I'm going to check out Celmony Melodyne and see what it is all about.
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/28/12 04:52 PM
You could also check out RealBand Bob.

You can highlight a note (of audio) in the Audio Edit Window, right click and then transpose to change the note (or chord's) pitch. This is a high quality chipmunk free transposition using Elastique algorithms built in to RealBand. You can also create notes or chords using copy and paste.

All of this done within RealBand, no third party software required. Having said that, there is amazing third party software (Melodyne) that can change single notes within an audio chord, when you need to do that.

A much faster way of editing is to just add MIDI tracks to the audio tracks, and either erase the underlying audio, or leave it in. Leaving it in allows the the MIDI to sound more real. Often if the ear is hearing an audio guitar and a MIDI guitar,it all sounds like audio .
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 02/29/12 11:59 PM
Thanks Peter!

This sounds exciting. None of this was available when I first tried loops. They were more like a static collage.

I've used BiaB and PTPro for years and always assumed that RealBand was a combination of the two. So I never paid much attention to it. Seems like that may have been erroneous thinking.

I tend to run separate apps instead of the all-in-one app. Smaller menus with fewer sub and sub-sub menus (so I keep my hands off the mouse and on the synth keys more), less clutter, and more intense concentration on each task.

I remember dumping a sequencer/DAW because there were sometimes 4 sub-menus and I'd have to click-click-click-click to perform an action that I did often. Not only was that a time waster, my mouse finger was getting an RSI! (I won't mention any names because that was long ago and they may have fixed the menus.)

I guess R.Band has some nifty additional features that neither BiaB or PTPro has. I'm excited. It seems like a new tool/toy!!! I'm ready for a new adventure. Is there a link to the exclusive features of R.Band?

New computer is ordered (custom configured to keep the bloatware off and install more RAM) so I'll probably wait until it comes in to start the adventure. February and March are our two busiest gigging months as well. Not many days off (and that's a good thing because the slow season follows)

So, when the new ThinkPad arrives, do I just drag and drop the BiaB and RB folders to the new computer?

If so, where should I drop them? I've been told not to put them in the program files folder.

Any suggestions?

(You may make a convert out of me yet).
Posted By: PeterGannon Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/01/12 01:55 AM
So, when the new ThinkPad arrives, do I just drag and drop the BiaB and RB folders to the new computer?

Yes, that will work. You also need to do the fonts, either run a basic install (almost any install of BB will install the fonts), or find the fonts (files beginning with PG and with extension .TTF in the old windows font folder, and copy them to the new PC's font folder.
Posted By: jan larkin Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/01/12 05:16 AM
Quote:

You could also check out RealBand Bob.

You can highlight a note (of audio) in the Audio Edit Window, right click and then transpose to change the note (or chord's) pitch. This is a high quality chipmunk free transposition using Elastique algorithms built in to RealBand. You can also create notes or chords using copy and paste.

All of this done within RealBand, no third party software required. Having said that, there is amazing third party software (Melodyne) that can change single notes within an audio chord, when you need to do that.

A much faster way of editing is to just add MIDI tracks to the audio tracks, and either erase the underlying audio, or leave it in. Leaving it in allows the the MIDI to sound more real. Often if the ear is hearing an audio guitar and a MIDI guitar,it all sounds like audio .




Hello Mr Gannon,

I have tried what you have said but as the audio is in the shape of a waveform (unlike Melodyne) isn't it going to be a bit difficult to pick out a particular note in the audio edit window?

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Thanks,
jan
Posted By: Dwalk Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/03/12 11:35 AM
I need further clarification. I've tried this several times and have not been able to get it to work. Is there a video or something that shows how to do this? When i change to the expanded style I can still only get 4 chords in that measure.
Posted By: jford Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/03/12 12:37 PM
Hi, Dwalk -

When you expand, you have to treat every measure as a half measure, which can get confusing, but works sound-wise. Your notation won't look right, but everything should sound right. What the expansion does is doubles the durations of the notes the style would play, which is why you have to set the tempo to double. So at that doubled tempo, it now takes double the bars to play one bar. But the effect is that it gives you four slots per on-screen bar to enter chords, giving you a work-around for 8th note chord resolution (and even 16th and 32nd note in places, if you you use pushes).

I hope that made sense.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/03/12 02:09 PM
It might help to think of each numbered slot in the BiaB matrix as a 'cell' instead of a 'bar' or 'measure'. When using an EXPANDED style, each 'cell' becomes a half measure instead of an entire measure. So Bar Number one spans Cells # 1 and 2 -- Bar Number two spans Cells #3 & 4 -- and so on.

To compensate for each cell becoming a half bar instead of a whole one, you must therefore double the tempo.

As John pointed out, this will not work if you are using the notation editor to print lead sheets, but the work-around does allow for the entry of songs that would otherwise have to be severely compromised by BiaB.

As I pointed out earlier, I have a number of styles that were designed to be EXPANDED styles, so if your forced BiaB style doesn't work, go to http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html and give them a listen.

Notes
Posted By: jford Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/03/12 02:30 PM
Quote:

I have a number of styles that were designed to be EXPANDED styles




And as a satisfied customer, I will definitely vouch for Bob Norton's styles. I have a number of songs that just came to life when I applied some of his styles (this is not to disparage PGMusic styles, because I have lots of songs that use their styles, also, but for some songs, they just didn't sound right until I applied one of Bob's styles).
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/04/12 08:40 PM
Thanks, John.

I don't try to write styles to replace PG Music styles. There is no sense in that, PG Music already has a lot of great styles (some of them I wish I had written myself <grin>). Instead, I try to write styles that PG Music hasn't addressed yet. Styles that will work with songs that I can't find a PG Music style to work for.

So I think my styles expand the possibilities of BiaB. They complement the PG styles, instead of replace them.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/05/12 03:38 AM
OK, a couple of people have recommended Melodyne. I've been to the home page and read a lot about it. I think I'll wait until the gigging slows down to download the demo (I really won't have time to mess with it until after Mother's Day - the "season" dies after Easter and they bury it after Mothers Day).

Which version do you all recommend? It looks like the Editor is the best mix at $400 retail, but the Studio 3 is $700 retail. Is the Studio 3 worth the extra money? And what would I get for the additional $300?

Of course, shopping around will likely get them for less.

I don't want to spend more money than I need to, but on the other hand I don't want to short myself an important function so that I end up saying, "I wish I would have purchased ____ version."

Thanks
Posted By: Dwalk Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/07/12 04:30 AM
Thanks for the reply, I've been messing around with it. I can get it to work but the drums are way too fast. Is that normal? The chords sound ok. Should I expand from the very beginning of the song? Sorry to be such a bother butI'm a newbie.
Posted By: John Conley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/08/12 11:50 AM
When you 'expand' to use 2 cells for a measure the timing must change.

Before you were moving at 80 bpm and with 4 beats per cell.

Now in 2 cells (not one) is the measure. Just do the math. So start by changing that parameter so the song is going properly and sounds right.
Posted By: Dwalk Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/14/12 06:16 PM
Thanks
Posted By: maiki Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/18/12 01:54 AM
Peter Gannon,

Thanks for the wonderful products you have created for decades. Thank you also for participating in these forums, so that users can interact directly with the creator of the software, the CEO of the company.

You have participated in this thread, in a conversation with Bob Norton regarding MIDI vs Real Tracks, etc., a very interesting discussion.

I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.

That is a limitation of BIAB that has been complained about in these forums not only for years, but for decades.

Sure, there are work-arounds, but a lot of hassle, and not always with good results. Or the option of buying Bob's "expanded" styles.

It sure would be nice though, if that serious limitation of BIAB could be resolved without the user having to resort to work-arounds, or to buy a third party add-on.

Is your company working on fixing that limitation? If so, when do you expect that fix to be available?

Thanks again.
Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.

Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.




Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/18/12 04:08 PM
Quote:

This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)

Bruce





I agree... done!
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/18/12 04:16 PM
Quote:

I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.





The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:

1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?

And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')

2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.

3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure.

If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)


Posted By: maiki Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/18/12 10:06 PM
Quote:

Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.

Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.




Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.




Not often 6,7,8. Sometimes 5 to be sure.

Whether or not you call it a "harmonized melody" rather than a chord change, one still needs to be able to change the chord more than four times in the measure, and that has been a major limitation of BIAB since its inception.

Frankly, I think posts like yours and John Conley's saying something like: "I don't see why anyone needs to have more than four chord changes in a bar, I never need it, I don't know any songs like that, etc., etc., etc.", are rather silly.

That is fine, if you never need to put more than four chord changes in a bar. But a lot of people have come across that need in certain songs, and have asked for such a fix for decades. Just because you personally have not come across a need for that fix, you do not need to belittle those who do, and imply that such a fix is not necessary, just because you personally have never had a need for it. Respect the fact that others need it.

I would still like a reply from Peter Gannon about this, rather than smokescreens like the post I just replied to.
Posted By: maiki Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/18/12 10:18 PM
Hmmm- Pat. Very interesting concept you have there. That the problem is people considering a measure to be a measure, rather than a "chord cell".

May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think.

In the BIAB interface, there is much reference to "bars". "Settings for current bar", "play from bar...", "number of bars in chorus", etc. I don't see a setting "number of chord cells in chorus". Do you deny that in music talk the term "bar" is a synonym for "measure"? Or will a music dictionary define "bar" as "chord cell"?

Saying that the problem is fixed because users can use complicated workarounds that are a lot of hassle, and do not always bring good results, or that one can buy third party expanded styles to deal with the problem (with those expanded styles limited to MIDI, not RT and RD), seems to me yet another smokescreen, to obscure the fact of a serious limitation that has existed in the program, I think the most persistently complained about limitation for decades.

It is certainly no issue to me whether or not Notes Norton is put out of business or not. Completely irrelevant, another attempt at distracting from the main question.

Once again, if you, Pat, have not ever had a need to put more than four chords in a measure (yes, I will call it that), that is fine. But there is no need to insult the many users who have asked for this for decades, implying that they are crazy or stupid or something. (Stupid, I guess, to think of "measures" rather than "chord cells"?)

I have to say that I find it strange that it seems like every time this limitation has been brought up (which is many times, over years), that posters suddenly appear to insult those who ask about it. Yet PG Music never responds to the question, never says whether they will fix that limitation.

So, ignoring the distraction of smokescreens, I am still waiting for a reply from PG or someone else from PG Music, regarding a serious limitation, that users have asked to be fixed for decades, whether a fix is in the works for it.

Thank you.


Quote:

Quote:

I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.





The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:

1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?

And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')

2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.

3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure. (So please stop saying it is.)

If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)





Posted By: Pat Marr Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/19/12 02:35 AM
Quote:

May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think.





You're right. The documentation does say that. Probably because in all but a handful of songs it functions perfectly well as a measure.

I'm just pointing out the same thing as you, but from a different direction. By your logic and mine a true measure can accommodate more than 4 chords. What the documentation calls a measure cannot do that.

Therefore my conclusion is that is not a measure (even though 99% of the time it can be used that way) , and that a more accurate description of it is "4 chord cell". Anyone who looks at it according to the most functional definition will be best prepared to achieve the results he wants.

Your conclusion is that PGMusic needs to make it function in accordance with the attributes of a measure, allowing 8 chords. Fair enough. We just disagree. Actually, we don't even disagree, we just have a different threshold for contentment.


Regarding insults:
I have nothing to gain by insulting you. I assure you that was not my intent.


Regarding complicated workarounds:
Styles have been the power of BIAB since its beginning. There are many things that can only be accomplished through the creation of special styles. Only those who have taken the time to learn how to make styles know how to do everything the program is capable of doing.

Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 03/19/12 02:22 PM
Yes documentation still calls them measures, but it still calls the track that can contain hundreds of different instruments strings and another piano and another guitar. This is because BiaB has expanded from its humble beginnings to what it is today.

I tend to think of each numbered section in the matrix as a cell instead of a measure because it allows me to do things that I cannot do otherwise, like play a 5/4 song or a 6/8 song using a SW style and making each cell 2 measures -- or using an EXPANDED style making each cell a half measure to overcome the 4 chord or associated limitation.

As far as the 8 chords per bar are concerned, very few songs that I have run across have needed them, but many songs have needed:
  • more than 4 chords per bar and
  • a chord on both a beat and the upbeat preceding it (you can't push a chord and still have the cord on the beat that you pushed).


I've done 29 fake disks http://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake and 28 of them have been transcribed from off-the-shelf, best selling fake books from publishers like Hal Leoanard, Warner Brothers, Alfred and so on. The need for EXPANDED styles are so common, that I don't think I've done a single fake disk that hasn't needed EXPANDED styles - which is the reason I invented them back in the 1990s. And the genres that need EXPANDED styles run across all styles, rock, pop, country, jazz, blues, Latin American, reggae, disco, Broadway and so on.

Band-in-a-Box has its great features, but it also has its limitations. For a few examples:
  • Putting a brass section in the channel labeled 'strings' is one very easy way to get around a limitation.
  • Putting the equivalent of a group of Latin American percussionists (conga, timbale, guiro, cowbell, etc.) into one drum channel in the StyleMaker is another,
  • using one cell as a 3/4 measure and the next as a 2/4 measure to play a 5/4 rhythm is another,
  • exporting to a MIDI sequencer and getting rid of the 3rd in a C5 power chord that BiaB insists on inserting ... or getting rid of the Diminished 7th (also a 6th) in that chord that you wanted to be a diminished triad is another
  • and using creating and using EXPANDED styles to put more than 4 chords in a measure or a chord both on the beat and the upbeat before that very same beat is another.

You can choose to use these 'work-arounds' to "fix" the limitations of BiaB if you like, or you can accept those very same limitations. You can also make your wishes known to PG Music who have been very receptive to many of our past wishes. Our wishes are the main reason why there are more than 3 instruments, user styles, full G-MIDI drum kit, Piano Roll editor, Notation, and many of the other improvements that have come along since those DOS days so long ago. Bravo to PG Music for all of this.

I choose to invent and use these work-arounds and also to put my improvement wishes into the Wish List.

You can either live with the limitations or go with the work-arounds - nobody here seems to be telling anyone what to do, simply offering suggestions as to what you CAN do if you want to.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: AJ Dagger Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/25/13 08:44 PM
I am glad that you see the reason that one might want to have more than 4 chords per beat and push to 16ths. Requiring a band hit on an anticipation is really important in modern music. The ability to have a hit on the "ta" of 4 and on the following 1 would be a real gift. Would it be possible for the expanded style to become a 4 bar expansion at 4 times tempo to achieve this? Just wondering. I have just started evaluating BIAB as an arranging tool to cut my work load. I build minus one and Karaoke tracks as well as produce bands and having a way to convey these ideas rapidly and have BIAB handle the basic arrangements for me would be amazing. One track that I am working on for one of my students is the Foo Fighter's Everlong and there are some complex rhythms that defy what I am capable of doing at this point with BIAB. Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future? Thank you for your input. AJ
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/26/13 06:24 PM
Hi AJ, welcome to the forum. One thing, you do realize you're answering someone from almost two years ago?
Quote:
Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future?


As to your question, who knows? This is just us users here. No inside secrets available. This would go in the Wishlist forum. I know this would be very cool and has been asked about for years.

What version of Biab are you using?

Bob
Posted By: sj1 Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 09:20 AM
Hi all. The last post prior to this one was in 2013. I just thought I'd ask to check if all of the above is still the case as far as anyone knows.

I too would like a simple and direct way to have a chord on the "and of 4" and then a chord (same or different) on the following 1.

Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
Posted By: silvertones Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 09:25 AM
Yes
Posted By: sj1 Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 11:14 AM
Thanks!
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 11:33 AM
EXPANDED styles are the only way I know to do that.

I invented EXPANDED styles decades ago and I have a nice selection. You can demo a lot of them in a low-fi MP3 at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

Note they are MIDI styles, I used the built in software synth that came with BiaB at the time, and ripped at a very low bit rate. If you have a better synth, they will sound much better.

Insights, incites and a self-serving but I hope helpful plug by Notes
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 01:25 PM
Originally Posted By: sj1

Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
I agree Norton Expanded Styles are currently the best way. But it's not the ONLY way.

You can increase the duration of your song by twice, then change the style and try to find a good fit. Now you have over two measures what was formerly in one, so you have eight possible chords in those two measures. The notation won't be right, but often the sound can work.

Or - maybe that's what you meant by 'built" rather than 'purchased'?
Posted By: cooltouch Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 01:28 PM
I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.
Posted By: MarioD Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: cooltouch
I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.



My workflow is like yours, i.e. BiaB MIDI files to DAW, mine being Studio One Pro. But I would like to see PGMusic add things like chords on eighth or sixteenth notes. Having BiaB do it would be a lot faster than what I have to do in my DAW. YMMV
Posted By: Dave Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 07:41 PM
For me, I don't need more than 4 chords per bar. Fingering more than 4 on a guitar is not practical, unless you are a contortionist, or the song is very slow. I can agree that more than 4 positions for chords makes some sense. However, my ear doesn't usually hear such subtle change in a chord position.

There are far more issues that need to be addressed than this.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 09/10/19 08:20 PM
You're a guitarist, not the same on keyboards. It also depends on your style of playing. Simple strumming on the downbeat or basic 4/4 country/blues/rock is one thing but as soon as you get into more complex syncopated latin jazz/funk/fusion it's a whole other thing. I'm sure you've heard of the classic R&B song Mercy, Mercy, Mercy? That's a perfect example of what Biab can't do without expanding the style and doing these workarounds and yes, it's very important to musicians doing songs like that and no, nothings changed in the years I've been using Biab in spite of the fact it has to be one of the oldest Wishlist items there is.

Bob
Posted By: Dave Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/01/19 07:25 PM
Any changes on 4 chords per bar in 2020?
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/01/19 07:38 PM
No change.
Posted By: Pipeline Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/01/19 08:49 PM
You can do it with the Biab Plugin in Reaper with ReaTrak.
You can get your chords in by opening the SGU in the Biab Plugin the "Biab Plugin Chords" button.
Then you can open another instance of the plugin just entering the chords you need for the bar,
drag that section into Reaper splitting the sections.

I could probably script it to do all the tracks at once automatically.

See Dropbox Video
Posted By: Ryan_R Re: More than 4 chords per measure - 12/02/19 02:41 AM
I guess if you had a DAW you could drag the song over into it and slice out 7/8ths of an extra bar to get the desired result.

The old suggestion of adding a Bar 4 'Push' instead of a Bar 1 'Pull' would be the best outcome that meets most needs, I think.
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