Hi All!
I think the upgrades for BIAB are "WAY" too pricey!!
I own quite a few digital audio software products, and none of them come even close to the extreme price percentage jump for upgrades as BIAB does.
Case in point:
Take Roland/Cakewalk's "Sonar".
Their last version (8.5) sold for about $499 (List). The upgrade to Sonar X1, their latest and greatest incarnation, which has tons of new features and top of the line plug-ins (processors, effects, VST Instruments, etc)is only $99.00 !!!
Look at the "Packages" page on the PG Music website.
Say you wanted to upgrade from BIAB 2011 UltraPlusPak (which list at about $469 list) to BIAB 2012 UltraPlusPak.
Your paying $279.00 for the upgrade!! You do the Math!! (that sounds like a ripoff to me)
While your on the "Packages" page, scroll over the "Upgrade From 2011 - UltraPlusPak" Download button. See all the things you get for the $279. WOW!!!
WAIT A FREAKIN' MINUTE!! I ALREADY HAVE MORE THAN 85% (if not more) OF THIS STUFF FROM MY "2011" UltraPlusPak!!! (Did I say Ripoff!)
I don't need another Hardrive, and as I said, I have at least 85% (if not all) of the listed RealTracks, RealDrums, Midi Styles Sets, Soloist Sets, etc. from my 2011 Version !!
Come on PG Music. I know we all need to make a buck and times are hard with such a sucky economy and such, but I think we're being taking advantage of here.
BIAB has come a long way from the early days when I first came on board back in 1998 or 1999, but so have all the other software products that I've purchased back then and stayed loyal to.
I want to know what you as "Users and Committed Customers of PG Music think about this.
Don't be shy. Let me have it!!
Harpo
If you are going to cite SONAR X1 as an example in your argument, you should use the numbers fairly.
SONAR X1 is priced $100 lower than was SONAR 8.5, at $399 list for the most pricey version. Upgrades range from $99 to $199 depending on what version you owned. Plus, the comparison is hardly relevant since SONAR 8.5 and SONAR X1 are in many ways different products.
Lots of things in the Cakewalk line changed with the introduction of X1, unlike the evolutionary change in BIAB from version 2011 to 2012, and don't forget you are skipping version 2011.5.
Well Harpo,
The secret is as I am sure you are well aware of is NOT to buy band in a box upgrades now or anytime they don't have a sale on, then you will get it for half the price.
Its probably just their business model being a small company and with biab filling a small niche in the music software business they are probably somewhat dependant on (people who are new to the software) people paying full whack outside the sale times.
But you and I Harpo know differently, at sales times we get a good deal.
Musiclover
Harpo,
Am retired on fixed income...Now that said not missing any meals.
Will never own a new car or anything like that.
My first PG products purchase was Power tracks back in 2006 I think.
Upgraded a few times but not every year.
2010 Dec Purchased BIAB 2010, just a few days later, 2011 came out.
PG gave me upgrade for free due to recent purchase.
Mid 2011, 2011.5 with bonus paks came out for $99 bucks. Wow, all kinds
of new realtracks.
Was going to upgrade to Mega pak and patiently waited until DEC of 2011.
Mega Pak came out. Called to purchase and was informed for just a few bucks
more could get the Ultra-Plus Pak for think was $139 or close to that.
Wow, went for that, and also the Bonus Paks, this gave me All of the Realtracks
and even more. Best Christmas in many years.
June/July PG will be coming out with new versions like the usually do.
Dont remember, but usually the mid year upgrades are quite as hot as the
Dec ones. Will wait and see on the Jun/July offering.
Not sure on my Dec upgrade this year, maybe just the Standard BIAB and
bonus paks if they are offered.
Their technology has been jumping by leaps and bounds, their service and
customer support is beyond compare, their products are the best there is
really looking at what you get for the money.
We like to think of prices going up a lot, and they are across the board in
our lives, but PG Music and what they have to offer at all levels, especially
if you delve into it deeply is an incredible product.
Now you must think PG paided me a great deal to say this.
And you would be right....NAW, ROFLMAO, just a rabid fan and user of their products.
Going from the beginning the Ultra-Plus-Pak is steep, but you get almost every product
they sell in the pak.
Jun/July time frame they usually offer new upgrade specials. Hang in there patiently
and grab one of them.
Just my personal experience.
Hang in there!
The thing to remember is, if you intend to upgrade at Decenmber to the following years program is NOT to upgrade in June/July to the .5 program as in effect what you are doing is paying the extra $99 just to have the newer realtracks a few mths earlier than the December upgraders.
And you save $99
But if you have the money to spend and can't wait them like many you may decide to upgrade to the .5 in middle of year.
musiclover
Harpo,
I disagree with you. I think the upgrade prices are excellent value. Seems to me that you are looking at the overall and not the detail.
From my perspective, the upgrade of UltraPlusPak Windows version 2011 to 2012 was mostly about Realtracks. A total of 202 Realtracks was added to 2012. For the upgrade price of $279, this means that each RT costs around $1.40. I find that incredible value!
That I can have world class musicians playing the backing of the music I arrange for such an amazingly cheap price is brillliant. (If I wanted to professionally demo each of the songs I write, prices begin around $400 - 500 for a single song; and then I'm not sure whether I'll like the end product or not. I like the control that owning BIAB/RB gives me.)
Then of course there are always the new features that come along as BIAB continues to grow. Keep in mind also that the upgrade gives the user the latest version of Realband in addition to BIAB. The PG Music suite is much more than just a DAW like Sonar.
I have absolutely no objection to supporting PG Music. I find the company amazing to deal with and their products are incredible. If my support provides funds that allows PG Music to continue to evolve their music suite, I'm there.
Regards,
Noel
It seems fair to me, with what it must cost them to record high dollar players and programing too. I used Sonor for midi editing but never upgraded it cause it didn't seem necessary to me, my music would have only been average at best without Biab. Plus you get a DAW (RB) with it too, and all the extra programs in the Ultra Pack. Sounds pretty cheap when you add it all up!
Quote:
Hi All!
I think the upgrades for BIAB are "WAY" too pricey!!
I want to know what you as "Users and Committed Customers of PG Music think about this.
Don't be shy. Let me have it!!
I don't agree with you. I don't like spending my hard earned money any more than the next guy but I've always felt that PG Music's prices are more than fair.
Easy...DON'T UPGRADE ! Done.
Harpo - I take it that it's the RTs you want. The hard drive makes it expedient for you to get them - either that or you could take a day or two to download . . . . what would that cost you. The RTs have attached studio costs for recording by name artist but is still good value as Noel explained.
But then to upgrade from your 2011 to 2012 - both BIAB and RB - it's only $69 and you can probably download it. That's pretty good value.
You'll be up to date and can choose your RT Sets individually rather than getting ones you don't want.
I hear your frustration - but at least update the programs - $69 for both BIAB and RB. Do the RTs as you can. You can't make all the new ones work anyway unless you update to 2012.
Cheers - Ian
PS I already have all midi styles, soloists, melodists and it bothers me to be offered them at every upgrade UNLESS there have been changes. Maybe an Ultra and/or Plus Pak with Pgm upgrades and New RTs - without the other add-ons - might be an idea. IMHO
I don't kown if there's many other software that can do what Biab do ? Considering that the upgrade consists of buying software + hardware, I don't feel that it's expensive... but I waited for the special prices of the end of year to upgrade ;-)
So Harpo, the moniker seems to suit.
This rant, if it was to have effect would need more than that as substance.
Are you aware of how much it costs to hire the musicians, have them play the stuff required, program that stuff, and then check it, beta test it, package it, and launch it.
We are in Canada now, so no one is holding a loaded snow shoe over your head and making you buy an upgrade.
Feel free to purchase the next version without mentioning that you ever owned anything and consider it a donation to the cause.
Play back a few songs on a 30 year old synth so you can have some cheeze to go with the ...
Technology changes by the moment, and a person can go broke trying to upgrade every bit of software and hardware to the latest greatest version. My fatherly advice to my son (who always wanted to upgrade everything all the time) was:
1) for hardware: wait until the software you use will no longer run well on the old machine
2) for software: Don't upgrade everything. Each year upgrade the product that adds the most features you need. If a product goes 2 or 3 releases without adding anything that's important to me, then I just keep using the old version and stop upgrading that product.
For the past several years, BIAB has been the only music making software that has consistently added new features that pique my interest.
3) upgrade at the most advantageous time. Introductory prices are lower, and it's foolish to let the sale run out if you know that you want to upgrade.
4) in order to do that, you need to know which product you plan to run with. For me, it has boiled down to the PGMusic suite... they do everything I need.
Nah, i don't think it is to much, i just stopped upgrading some other stuff that i don't use as much. If Sonar had the technology to make RTs and added 200 or so each upgrade i bet it would be much more costly.
If i play golf i will spend $50 per outing, and if I play racquetball $20 to $30 per session. I play music about twice a week now, and it cost me around $200 per upgrade, and that is about $3.85 cents per session. Pretty cheap i might say.
Quote:
Nah, i don't think it is to much, i just stopped upgrading some other stuff that i don't use as much. If Sonar had the technology to make RTs and added 200 or so each upgrade i bet it would be much more costly.
If i play golf i will spend $50 per outing, and if I play racquetball $20 to $30 per session. I play music about twice a week now, and it cost me around $200 per upgrade, and that is about $3.85 cents per session. Pretty cheap i might say.
that's a good way of conceptualizing the value added by an upgrade.
Every hobby costs money. This hobby can actually EARN money. No matter whether you use BIAB as a hobby or as an income producing product, it comes out less expensive than most of the alternatives.
I think BIAB is fair compared to prices for sample libraries for example. It all needs to be put in perspective. How much do or would you spend on booze each week, fags or a holiday if relevant? When you compare it to the enjoyment you get on a continuous basis instead of a fleeting moment then I’d say its good value.
I want to spend more on booze but I loose my beer all the time. I can't smoke in the house I guess. Havn't tried in years. It used to work ok though. I used to make charitable donations to underprivileged women, but the music where they work is too loud and it's too dark. So I quit that too.
I like a good steak once every few weeks. Those are about 12 bucks for 2 and at 20 times a year that's a good hobby I'll keep until it's too cold to hit the bbq.
I'm sticking with the upgrades I think. And a nice Havana once a month.
I buy every upgrade whether I need it or not...but that's just me. Gotta have the latest and greatest, especially BIAB / RB !
Well, if I may say so, when I consider the VAST amount of goodies (RT's and software tweaks) that seem to CONSTANTLY improve at near exponential levels...
My brain is in perpetual synoptic meltdown...in a feeble attempt to absorb and (if I'm lucky) apply those newly formed, revised, and polished incentives that are so exhuberantly bundled with each and every release.
I am delighted at PG's efforts...humbled actually.
There is a METRIC TON of effort and attention to detail that is applied all along the chain...from the least, to the greatest...
From the exceptionally skilled, blessed, and talented instrument players themselves---to the grips, guitar techs, cable runners...to those blessed souls who gratiously provide clean and supplied restrooms (I love you too!)---I chat with the gal at work all the time (hey, I used to...I'm a Navy man...we're some cleaning fools). To everyone at Team PG: Bravo!
I digress---
I think another person coined it correctly: If you're so inclined, and you have the patience of Job, then sure, wait until the annual release at a discount; else, you could "selctively" choose what specific "bumps" you'd like if you favor a particular genre...or RT set.
That's what I like: Flexibility.
The choices you make can range from All, to some, to a few, to...
Unfortunately for me, I happen to be of the "all or nothing" personality LOL
To date, I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever.
Well, I do have one: Insufficient time and brain power to fully utilize it ALL!!!
Have Fun,
Eric
I worked for Jack Daniel's, yes the whiskey for 30 years and the founding father Jack himself made a statement very early on in the history of that American icon . . . "All Goods Worth Price Charged". IMHO BIAB is one of only a few products I have ever purchased, besides Jack, to which I would share that statement.
Later,
I don't purchase every upgrade but when I do upgrade it's well worth the money I put down.
Comparing BIAB and Sonar is like apples and oranges.
Sonar has a much larger customer base then BIAb so of course they can charge less per upgrade.
Tim
With the Mega-Pak I can upgrade the Program & get all the new RT for $130 ($99 on sale) and not have to pay for the "redundant programs" I already have...I just don't see how this can be overpriced for a previous owner.....
Thanks to everyone who replied to my post!
Boy, there are some "real sensitive folks out there that seemingly have taken my comments as a slight towards the BIAB program or PG Music itself.
You guys are so way off.
As I said I've been with PG Music for a very long time now. Do you think I would have hung around this long if I didn't like the product?
I own a fairly elaborate Home Recording Studio and have many different types of music software, and guess what?...........
I can find something that I'd like to change in each and every one of them. Something that "I" believe would improve the software in one way or another.
That doesn't mean I don't like them or they're not a rockin' piece of software, it just means I have personal preference about what I buy.
Thanks for the comments on the "specials". I never took advantage of these (or even really knew about the regularity of them), as well as buying the RT separately on an "as needed basis".
This is good information and I wish there were more people out there who actually understood my post and responded to it with a similarly "helpful" tone.
(but believe it or not, I actually enjoyed reading "all" of the responses. Some of them made me laugh.)
So......
I still feel that the upgrades are a bit too pricey, though I understand PG Music is not as large as some other music software companies (another helpful point that someone made!), but if anyone believes your upgrades have to be more than the next guys just because you bring people into a studio to record, think about software like "Kontakt" or "BFD" (just for starters).
I'll continue to enjoy my UltraPlusPak and maybe when the next "deal" comes around I'll upgrade then. Maybe not.
But in the meantime, I wish all lovers of BIAB, Happy Jamming!
Peace
Harpo
Hey brother Harpo--
Do not ever contemplate the purchase a boat or an airplane.
--Mac
Good one Mac! (really)
But if I could afford a boat or an airplane, do you think I'd be at all concerned about a $279. upgrade (lol)!?!?
Another thing is that you do not have up upgrade every time! I only upgrade my software if there is something new that I think will help me.
I never updated 2004 Biab until they had RT's, it was their best improvement yet!
Harpo,
I hope my reply made you laugh.
Take Care,
Hi Danny
Absolutely.
That was definitely one of the moments that brought on a smile and a few chuckles. Thanks!
Quote:
Hi Danny
Absolutely.
That was definitely one of the moments that brought on a smile and a few chuckles. Thanks!
Great now I can take the rest of the day off.
Take Care,
I am a very careful shopper, and strongly tend toward frugality. For many programs, even those I use regularly, I am one or more versions behind or have skipped intervening versions. I bought the music-creation-optimized PC I use every day in 2003 (although I have upgraded several components when I had no choice). But I ALWAYS upgrade full-tilt BIAB the moment I learn of it, and I ALWAYS believe it is a fantastic value, for me. (The only thing I have not gone for is the Audiophile option, although I continue to strongly consider it given that I use BIAB among other applications in my creation of LawTunes albums for sale.) I'm not sending PGMusic any more money than they request, but I am happy to send them what they do request for BIAB, as I do not feel there is anything comparable out there in terms of functionality/features, usability, innovation, eliciting of the creativity within us, responsiveness to user input/wishes, and support. And I want them to be around forever.
Just buy the upgrades when they are on sale. That's what I do every year.
Here's what I think; I missed an upgrade (2011.5) and instead bought the 2012 one and still, if I remember well, it cost me about $150.00 or so. I considered to just upgrade the program to get the new capabilities, but when I ran the numbers adding the new jazz RT's (that's mostly what I care for), it would have cost me three or four times that, considering that each RT pack runs at $29.00, so, do the math, it was way cheaper to upgrade to the whole enchilada. I'm just saying.
Mike B.
Nah Harpo, if you owned a boat you could afford nothing else! I had one of those money pits once!
Doing the maths, mid year upgrade is $99 download option from previous year, end of year is $99 download option provided you upgraded mid year TOTAL =$198
end of year upgrade from previous year (for once a year upgraders) is $139.
Therefore you pay the difference of $59 to have the use of the extra realtracks and program updates from about June to Dec.
At the end of the year both the mid year upgraders and the once a year upgrade wil have exactly the same thing, same program same realtracks.
As I said before you pays your money and you takes your choice.
I just do the once a year Dec upgrade myself and save the £59
Musiclover
IMHO the real question is how much value to you get out of the upgrades? Like I said previously you don’t have to upgrade every time. However I, as well as a lot of other users, get tremendous value from PGMusic’s programs. Personally I am playing more now using Biab than I did when I was playing gigs! For me this is a tremendous value!
Just my two cents.