Hi all, JMD
Not sure what you mean by 'Model stuff'. Anyway I just tried a simple experiment which confirms which you wiser (and perhaps not older) users are stating. I took I song I wrote in Db and transposed the key to C but answered NO to transpose worksheet, the whole song played back exactly as its written even though the key was C and the chords were nothing to do with C.

I guess this cofirms what Tommy C said.

Dorian is a minor chord with a scalar context of using a 6th not a flat sixth (as in natural/aeolian or phrygian) and a 2nd not a flat second (as in Phrygian). I just typed in a couple of standard minor chords in random orders and found that in the styles I schose it seems to me that they have a flat sixth thing going on.

If you type in a 'X' m6 you get a sixth, not a flat 6. This could be used for Dorian I think.


Off topic:
I have a load of Aebersold stuff here - cut my teeth on them, but now I dont bother using them as BIAB is so good. The reading in the Aebersold quoted above is a good foundation though.

When I made a song with a simple arrangement of 2 chords Am9 and Dm9 saved just the band then a new song with Cmaj7 and Fmaj7 and only generated the solo, then put them both in my DAW it worked just fine. You might try the same with chords that contain the same notes as your progression and get results for Dorian mode. I'm not a chord wizard so don't know which chords to replace with what you are using, but I bet someone here could suggest them if they knew your progression. It won't be an all at once Biab playing thing, but it might be a work around. (Maybe)

Just use minor 6 chords. So for F dorian type Fm6, for D dorian, Dm6 and so on.
That`s the best way to have the bass use the dorian scale, since the 6th is the only difference between dorian and aeolian. If you use other tensions, like 9 or 11, there would be no difference to the aeolian mode.
I use it all the time when I teach my students "Impressions" or other dorain mode songs. So they hear the dorian sound better.

Sandra

I think the poster is happy enough with the chords, just that he can't seem to figure a way of getting phrases to say in the dorian mode. By that I think he means the soloists phrases in BIAB. I can't think of anything else to which it could refer. Maybe if he returns he might like to clarify.

My fix would still be to set the outside range values in the Soloist Maker to 1 - 1. And if that fails input the notes into the melody channel, copy and paste to all measures and get the 'Melody influences solo' settings to use all the notes in the melody.

Like I said it doesn't really matter if an odd chromatic tone surfaces, its perfectly jazz-like for that to happen as long as the stressed tones on strong beats are those of the chord/scale.

Regards

Alan

Hi David,
It looks like there have been good responses to your question. I am not sure exactly what you are looking for - is it something that plays the dorian scales, or a soloist that is in a dorian mode?

FWIW, there is a scales feature in BB that will play scales over chords.

An easy way to do what you want may be to change key signatures where you want. F Dorian would be the key of Eb, Eb Dorian would be Db and D Dorian would be C. Type your chords as Fm11, Ebm11 and Dm11. You can do the key changes at <edit-settings for current bar>. Not sure if this is what you want. I used the Evans Trio for backing tracks. The playback is kind of repetitive. Later, Ray

Well, the key changes didn't work as I thought they would. However, writing in Fm11///- Gm7 ///for 8 bars then Ebm11/// - Fm7/// for 8 bars did produce the correct backing tracks. Didn't have to change keys, just the chords. Haven't tried any of the soloists yet. Later, Ray

There is a way to get any voicing you want in BIAB but its a complex one though not necessarily time consuming.

The first step involves reducing the chord patterns to single note lines using just C in various octaves but keeping the rhythmic element of the pattern intact. Using the velocity command under the stylemaker 'Pattern' menu targeting a single note helps get rid of unwanted notes in one move. Deal with macro patterns by unchecking the 'ok to use macros' in pattern options and shifting all the notes to C.


Once you save this style, you can now use the chord sheet to enter just single notes which will form the top line of your chord when played by the chordal instument. When you have that shift it to a spare melody or solo track.

Then use the harmony maker to make a harmony using the low voice plus melody. You can shift the octave range of the low voice to get it nearer your melody.

Using the chord sheet again you can input new single note values for your next line which will be picked up by the low voice. You then merge the two by using 'Convert harmony to melody' under Melody Edit.

Follow the same step again for other voices. Remember that a held bass note can potentially be the lowest note of your chord.

It may take some experimentation to find the right octave for the 'low root' harmony voice and it's easier to achieve with styles that have mainly block chord parts. Yet I've managed to get convincing 4 note chord spellings using interval combinations totally unsupported by BIAB using this method.

Best regards

Alan

Dear Peter,

Just to clarify, my goal is to produce a "backing track" of bass/piano/drums that "sounds" like the Dorian Minor mode, in a jazz style, that I can improvise to. I am most interested in the baseline hitting the notes of the Dorian Minor scale. The 24-bar song that I am trying to duplicate plays three 8-bar phrases in F Dorian Minor, Eb Dorian Minor and D Dorian Minor. So, therefore I'd like the baseline for the F Dorian Minor 8-bar phrase, for example, to play scale tones in the key of Eb from F to F. Cheers,

David

I entered your changes using the Evans trio style. The key is set at Eb. The results sound dorian to me. The only out of the scale notes for the bass are just passing tones. Sounds good enough to practice to. You do have to enter the chords as Fm11, Ebm11 and Dm11. Later, Ray

You could change those passing notes Ray spoke of in Real Band, might be a little time consuming though.

You might also try forcing bassline with use of Slash Chords...


--Mac

Gents,

Yes, I'm happy with the way the bass/piano/drums accompaniment is generated from the chords that I specify. Especially, now that I understand a bit better how the accompaniment is generated from the chords (and the styles) I can choose.

Also, I did initially ask for insights about generating melodies from Dorian Minor scale tones, but since I am primarily interested in "backing tracks" based on the chord progression, I now realize that I do not need the soloist-type melody, since I will supply that from my own improvisation. What I need is for the baseline to play notes that "sound" like the Dorian Minor mode.

The best suggestion I have heard so far is to use the minor 6th chord for that, because the, say, Dm6 chord, produces baseline notes in the D Dorian Minor scale.

By the way, I ran the Aebersold .MP3 sound file through the Audio Chord Wizard, loaded the analyzed chords back into Band-In-A-Box, and listened to how it sounded. It produced a bunch to complex chord progressions that didn't really match up to how the original piece sounded. So, I ended up just selected a single chord for each of the three eight-bar phrases of the 24-bat song, and that, along with the correct jazz style sounded the closest to the Aebersold backing track I was trying to duplicate.

As I mentioned in another post, I haven't played with the Soloist or the scales over chords features yet, as I just want to first get a good Dorian Minor-sounding baseline from the chords and styles. But, I'll likely fool around with these features going forward or as time permits. Cheers,

David

Just tried the Xm6 chords. The sound of the Xm11 is closer to Dorian mode ala Miles and Trane. The 11th was a very important note in their playing. Later, Ray

Ray,

Ah, so! I'll check it out. Again, thanks,

David

Yeah, listen to a jazz teacher;-))
There is a reason why I told you to use the m6 chords.

See, of course, we jazzers like to play m11 chords and m9 chord, and usually they sound better. The 6th is the avoid note in dorian, but it`s also the most important note (along with the third of course) in that scale, because it defines it.

So piano and guitar players would play a mixture of these chords (and btw plenty of quartal chords too in the modern playing), but and here`s the clou:
They know that they are in dorian mode. BIAB does NOT. So, a jazz bass player can throw in a major 6th once in a while and will make it sound dorian. But BIAB will not know if it`s dorian or aeolian or even phrygian if you type in a m11 chord. Coz all of these scales have a m11 chord in them! If you`re lucky it plays a dorian phrase, since it`s the most used minor scale in jazz. But how can BIAB know? Maybe if you type Dm9, or 11 and set the root scale box to "C". But the safest way to go is to type Dm6 and the whole BIAB Band will play Dorian for you.

HTH,
Sandra

I guess it must be in the ears. I hear the Dm6 chord as being too restrictive and the Dm11 being more open for improvising. Back in the be-bop days a m6 chord usually meant that the 6th was the bass note, now-a-days it's Bhalfdim7. I would say use whatever sounds the best to your ears. Later, Ray

Hmmm. Such rich commentary! I think my "ear" is really influenced by the Aebersold backing track that started me off in this direction to begin with. Therefore, I'm really interested in knowing what you guys think about this actual track. So, if you have a moment, send me an email at david.bailey@technologist.com and I'll reply to it with the track attached. Cheers,

David

OK, I started over again at the beginning to see if I could figure out what is going on in this tread. So I see reference to “Jamey Aebersold How to Play Jazz and Improvise, Volume 1, 8-bar Phrases CD Track #2”, well many of us know this very well (I have the track). JA has us playing Dorian scales over each of these three minor chords in the progression as he comps on piano with a bass player.



Much has already been said in this thread regarding the underlying chord tones to bring forward the Dorian mode with its emphasis on the raised 6th. So no need for me to muddy the water with my take. The question here is what is JA beating out on the piano and bass that causes him to focus this whole lesson on the Dorian scales for improvising. Not easily answered, since JA is a master accompanist and he freely sprinkles in tones beyond simple triads and tonal extensions (which he also used frequently on these tracks). Therefore, it will take better ears than mine to ID JA’s playing. But the bass player seems to really be hitting the dorian scale with quarter notes, so I suspect this has a lot to do with the modal vibe in the backing. Dorian - JA Short Demo Example


So I assume you are trying to recreate JA backing in BIAB. In this case you want the bass and piano to play with the understanding that you will be playing only the Dorian Scale (just like JA and his bass player). Here is where JA backing has an advantage over BIAB. JA knows the scale the soloist is using, BIAB does not. BIAB figures you can play any minor scale. JA is an exercise specific for dorian, while BIAB is playing a tune with minor chords.


Having said all that, I tried to set up BIAB with a Fm6, Ebm6 and Dm6 progression. Spend about an hour – tried many of the suggestions provided here. Bottom line. I could not force the bass player to stay on the dorian scale. This is the biggest difference between what I hear in JA and BIAB.

If someone can accomplish this then how about uploading the BIAB file as a "dorian exercise - ala JA"

Hi Dan,

A couple of thoughts popped into my mind when I read your above post.

Firstly: Did you set the key to Eb major? This would be necessary as it tells BIAB what diatonic notes to play and Eb major has all the notes needed for F Dorian.

Secondly: I might have interpreted your post incorrectly but the chords Ebm6 and Dm6 are not harmonically related to F Dorian. (Ebm6 has a Gb in it and Dbm6 has an A natural in it, and both of these notes are foreign to F Dorian.)

After reading your post, I thought I'd have a play around with the Dorian mode and see what happened if I used a Brent Mason soloist with a country backing. The link below is an audio file of what resulted.

... link to Dorian mode example (country) - right-click and choose "Save link"

I only used triads based entirely on the notes of F Dorian. The chord progression is below.



Regards,
Noel