Hi BiaB experts.

While I do own a BiaB license, I am here to ask in behalf of a friend of mine who does not (yet).

He requested me to help him purchase a program called RealBookSoftware for some $150, but when doing a bit of research on that software in the Internet, I got the strong impression that the thing is a fraud.

The advertising for RealBookSoftware says, using it you can search a database of a great [*****] of RealBook songs and have the program play the selected song for you and display/print the lead sheet or musical notes and text.

I do know that BiaB would be able to do just this, when combined with a huge (well structured) directory of decently done RealBook transcriptions.

So I would like to recommend him to purchease a copy of BiaB. But where to get a really good collection of RealBook BiaB files ?

Thanks for any help,
-Michael

I think you're into an interesting aspect about licensing here, because if my understanding is correct, purchasers of BB/RB are free to sell their compositions. To the extent that the material itself is in the public domain (of which I would imagine most RealBook tunes are not) - then it would be perfectly legal.

For those tunes that are not in the public domain - then I would imagine the issue would be that of not paying royalties to the copyright owners of each song, but NOT for the generation of the music.

There are many more knowledgeable than I about such things. I hope to learn more and if appropriate be corrected regarding the angle I presented.

Michael, I would not recommend RealBook software. Like you I did some research and not only does it look illegal there are also a lot of activation problems with it, if in fact you can activate it at all!

A much better and legal way to do this is to buy BiaB, a legal fakebook like one of these http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...sl_6szbqc16ue_b
and the matching Fake Disk, if there is one, from Norton’s music http://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake

It is legal as Norton’s Fake Disks have the chords only, however the chords are in the identical key as the fake book. Just load the song in BiaB and play along. You can not copyright a chord structure so all chord progressions are legal to copy and distribute. It’s the lead lines that can be copyrighted.

If there is no Fake Disk just input the chords from the fake book and go from there.

I hope this helps.

I did find the site of Phillips Music and downloaded a ZIP file with some 500 BiaB File, seemingly containing chords and melody, many also the words.

I suppose this will be a good starter. BiaB can create a song list from the files that has some information What is lacking here is a kind of database that provides e.g. the Author.

-Michael

Exactly, This package rears it head occasionally over the years. My experience based on the money I paid for it - don't go there!

Check out www.iRealb.com Later, Ray

+1 for iRealb

I had major issues with the RealbookSoftware. False delivery schedules, things NOT working as advertised etc etc just not a happy experience at all. It promises much, and delivers very little. To be avoided!

No offers like that for Windows PC ?

-Michael

It's for Mac and Android. I sometimes use iRealb on short gigs. I have it installed on my android phone and android tablet. Later, Ray

Mario - thanks for that suggestion - it sounds interesting to me.

How good do the arrangements in the matching Fake Disk sound, and are there any tricks to quickly making the sound better (if that's even needed) ? Also - what do you think of the song selection in the particular Fake book(s) available in this format ? ?

Hi Joe,

A fake book only has the melody line and the supporting chords. There are no arrangements. The chords in the FakeDisks match identically to the chords in the fake book and will input a corresponding style. Most of the time the style matches but occasionally I change the style. If you are looking for an exact arrangement to say a pop song it isn’t gonna happen with BiaB styles without a lot of manipulations.

I have three of the Norton FakeDisks to date, The Beatles, The Ultimate Broadway and The Ultimate Pop and Rock, and I like all three. I also have a few other FakeBooks that are not on Norton’s list. What you want/need will depend on what you want to play/practice.

I buy the FakeDisks as it saves me a ton of time, I don’t have to input the chords and find a starting style myself. However you can buy a FakeBook that is not on Norton’s FakeDisk list and manually put the chords and styles in yourself.

I hope this helps.

Hi Mario,

On the strength of your recommendation I am going to try one of these Norton disks. I have always thought them a bit expensive, but I did not realise they contained all the chords written out.

Do they also have recommended styles for the tunes (within BIAB of course)?

Dennis

Bob Norton can answer better, but my experience has been that the Norton Fake disks use a mix of both PGMusic-provided and Norton-provided styles. He chooses a style he feels best works with the song (as I understand it, also based on the input from his own beta testers). So, if you don't have Norton's styles, you'll see the "style not found" message and have to load one that you do have. If you then save the song with the new style applied, you won't get that message the next time you open the file.

Hmmm I just bought one anyway, as a test and I am going through the songs, and already I have an error.

The Sher New Realbook 1 (legal) has Black Narcissus as a 3/4 Jazz Waltz yet the Norton disk has it as a 4/4..

I have sent an email enquiring about the methodology used in ascertaining styles. It is not a criticism at all as other songs seem to be fine, although I have not finished the song scan yet. It is more to say that there may be some Norton songs that actually don't match up to the book charting.

EDIT: Thanks John, I just noticed your post after I did mine.

Yeah I read that in some of his spiel. I have the full BIAB style library so hopefully there should not be too many mismatches. As I wrote I am a little concerned re correct time sigs..anyhoo I have sent an email to him so I will await his instructions

Dennis

Brilliant support - Bob has already replied and we are now checking the style list..I do have the entire BIAB style library and at his end the jazz waltz style is loading...

More to come...

Well it looks like it may be a PG Music issue. The style supposed to load is #J~WLTZ1.STY but after a search of the BB directory (factory default installation) there does not appear to be any styles that start with the prefix #

And the Norton website says no user styles are used, only factory ones. So it cannot be a missing "user" style.

My version of Black Narcissus sounds fine with the PG style, ^J~Window

Matt what is ^J~Window ? And I assume it is a 3/4. As I tried to stress it is NOT a criticism in any way of the Norton disk, and in fact Bob is providing good support.

But when I am using BIAB live, I need songs to load as per the book. I really do not have time to go through every song listing (I have quite a few fakebooks so I ws planning to buy several of the Nortons Disks) and if I get a call for a tune I have not checked, I was sorta hoping the songbooks would load up according to the chart.

Imagine if I had gone out and used this one cold at a gig, got a call for BN, everyone is expecting a 3/4, and it pops out as a 4/4 standard

This is the first Norton Disk I have bought, and I am only at B's - with a mismatch already...I guess I am trying to ascertain just how accurate they really are...

Random selections also seem to only throw up a base ZZ style. So even though the books are setup, I suspect there will be a lot of editing to more accurately match styles, BUT at least all the chords are entered so that is a major bit of work that can be avoided

Dennis

Dennis,

Then I think you and Bob have the answer - unless I misread your post.

I just read elsewhere ( http://bandinabox.wikia.com/wiki/Styles ) that it is Notes Norton styles that start with a "#" , NOT PG Music styles?

As confirm I also have no styles starting with "#" in my directories anywhere (I've got all files/styles going back to BIAB for DOS and I'm up to date with 2013 but I have zero Norton styles)

Even sans the "#" there is no "J~WLTZ1.STY" - closest thing NAME WISE is a style called

"J~WLZTRI.STY" - for the record it IS a 3/4 time, jazz trio waltz style.

Difference between your given style and this one is: The "Z and T are transposed" and where you have a number "1" this style has the letter "i" (eye) - but again sans "#"

Larry

Ahhhhh thanks Larry. That makes sense.

So what you are saying is I would also need to buy Nortons Styles as well, to get a 100% accurate match-up, yes?

Dennis

I do not know!

I thought (inferred) his Fake Books used "PG factory" styles?

He might desire/recommend BETTER Norton styles but I didn't think they were the default requirement.

Good question need to find out before I buy any of his Fake Disks

PS out of curiosity - how does that song SOUND with PG style I mentioned
Larry

I will try it now....

Very nice, works well - I also subbed in a Real Bass and guitar comping part - REAL nice

Re the other, I might even ask Bob while I have his attention if one also needs to buy his styles to get a 100% match.

Thanks Larry

Dennis

That stylename is definitely a Norton style.

May be a typo, might be something else, but Bob Notes Norton is a great guy who frequents this forum from time to time, for years, and I'm sure he'll get you straightened out.


--Mac

Thanks Mac, yeah the support has been good. Just for the record, at his end the BN song loads as a 3/4. But then in his first reply he referenced that # style as a possible reason. But as I have learnt here, I find those are proprietary styles of his.

Now, no probs at all with that, but as I just wrote him, I expect that if the website says the disk was set up using only factory styles, and that they all faithfully follow the book (and I 100% believe that btw), then I sorta kinda expect a 3/4 tune will load as a 3/4 tune, the actual style itself is not really an issue. That's all.

But you are correct he does seem a straight up guy

Dennis

The problem was a Norton Jazz style was chosen and since Dennis didn't have that style it reverted to zzjazz, which is a 4/4 style. The solution would be either to choose a jazz waltz from his own collection or purchase a Norton Style.

I never said I only use PG styles, in fact, quoting from my web site "I also suggested a style for each song from all the styles that were available for Band-in-a-Box when I compiled this disk. It is not necessary to have the book or my styles to enjoy this disk, but your fun will definitely be enhanced if you do."

Let me make this clear, you do not have to purchase Norton Music styles to use my fake disks. You don't have to have all the PG styles either. If you don't have the style assigned to the song, simply substitute one of your own.

When I do my fake disks some Norton Styles and some PG Music styles are used - I try to get whatever is best for the song.

Here is the long answer from one of my info pages:

When I wrote my first fake disk, I used only the built-in styles that came with Band-in-a-Box Pro. I immediately got requests from many customers to choose the best style from all the styles available for Band-in-a-Box.

I asked them, "What if you don't have that particular style?"

They answered, "We will just substitute one of our own. We have nothing to lose and something to gain if you tell us which style you like best."

So in an effort to please my customers, starting with Fake Disk #2, I suggested a style for each song from all the available Norton, and PG Music Style Disks available at that time.

Here is how I did it.

When I compiled my fake disks, I asked experienced, professional musicians to assign the styles to the songs. I asked them choose (suggest) the best style for the song from all the PG and Norton music styles available. I also asked them not to play favorites to either my styles or PG Music's.

When they were done, Leilani and I sat down, listened to all the songs, triple checked for any errors, made adjustments to chords that we thought didn't sound right due to the limitations of Band-in-a-Box, and in rare cases overruled the style choice of the person who assigned the styles for the disk.

Some songs have been done in so many ways over the years, that many different styles fit equally well. In those cases, only one style had to be picked. You might find others that work better for your taste in music.

Since the styles were chosen from the available styles at the time we compiled the disk, a more appropriate style may have been written since then -- also, you may not agree with our choice. In either case, you can simply change the style.

If you don't have the style chosen for any particular song, click the 'song...' button to open the song picker window. In the column titled "Style" you should see the style chosen for that song. If the style name started with the # sign, it's a Norton Music style.
1) If you don't have that style, you can go to http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html and find out what disk it is on. In many cases you can also listen to a low-fidelity demo of the style so you can hear if you have a similar style in your collection of styles.
2) If you like you can either purchase the fake disk that style is located on, or purchase a single style or multiples of single styles of your choice.

I guess there is no one best way to compile a fake book for everybody, but this way seems to be the way to get the most accurate rendition of the song possible at the time the book was compiled. Some of the songs are so true to the original, and jump through so many hoops to get that way, than Leilani (who does most of the work on the fake disks) has been called "The Band-in-a-Box Goddess".

If you don't believe me, check out the demo on this page http://www.nortonmusic.com/fake32.html and see what I mean. It's in BiaB's SGU format and contains no copyrighted melody or lyrics.

It sometimes takes Leilani one full day to make a song like the one in the link above, but in the end it's worth it.

You can also make your own fake disk. Anybody with a few thousand hours to spare can. What we offer is a time and work saver and nothing more.

Notes

Thanks Bob, but I think the problem is that that song actually referenced one of your styles (most likely an unintentional one that slipped through the "proofing" stage), which is why it is not loading a BIAB factory jazz waltz.

In any case as I wrote you earlier, by using a "suggested" style from the styles available with BIAB at the time of compiling the book, is ipso facto the same thing (ergo it means you only used factory styles) yes?

Look it is not a major issue...as I said it was the first book I bought, and I had onyl got to the letter B before a glitch. Now, at home this is a minor annoyance only as one can scan styles to pick one to replace, but if I am at a gig with your Fakebook disks loaded, and I get a request for some obscure tune from one of the books, I sort of expect it will at least load with the correct time signature. The actual style is not as important as I have all the parts apart from bass and drums muted out anyway, the time sig is critical for me.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not "bagging" the disks at all, I think they are a brilliant concept and well done, but before I go further I just need to reconcile that I am probably going to HAVE to go through each and every entry to ensure they load with the correct song data.

The other alternative (which is not unappealing )is to also buy your styles disks...I am also considering that solution as well

As you may recall from my emails, I have 15 fakebooks all of which you seem to have a Fakebook disk for so it is a major investment, and I want to be sure before I proceed down that path.

Dennis

Bob/Notes, about this:

"The problem was a Norton Jazz style was chosen and since Dennis didn't have that style it reverted to zzjazz, which is a 4/4 style."

I had thought about that case when I first read this thread, but from a long time ago (decades) I thought that BIAB would substitute a waltz style if the song were in 3/4 and the requested style was not present. Perhaps that's wrong?

Joden, add my name to the testimonials for the good quality of Bob's work.

That is wrong Matt. It's in the Preferences window where you can pick any style you want to use as a default if the style embedded in the song does not exist on your system. And unfortunately you can only pick one and the program doesn't care what the song's time sig is. It's just one of those things that falls into the category of hey, nothing's perfect.

Joden and others, Notes could decide to only use PG's styles but then there's still tons of folks out there who didn't buy the full MegaPak or are still running an older version and don't have all the styles so the same problem can still crop up. You want him to only use the ancient 25 year old styles that everybody will have?

Trust me I fully understand why we all like to be lazy sometimes but it's still up to you to be properly prepared for a gig. All it takes is a minute or less to check any one song so even if you have 500 potential songs you can still easily start at the top, do 10-20 a day and have them all done in a few weeks. Or, brew a big pot of coffee and blow them all out in a weekend.

Bob

Yes, when my customers asked me to pick the best style, they meant out of PG and my own styles. When the people called (that was before Internet) I asked a lot of questions, including using other people's styles other than mine and the most common answer was just use mine and PGs.

Some of the callers let me know that they didn't have all the PG styles either - and they would pick one of their own that was close if they didn't have it.

There is no right way to do this that would satisfy every customer. So from all the calls I got in the early days, I chose to use whatever style works best with the song from all the PG and Norton styles to date. That's what my customers seemed to want.

In other words, the music rules, everything else is secondary.

Look at it the other way. If there is a perfect match that is a Norton style, and I chose an excellent PG style that happened to be a mediocre choice for that particular song, is that a better way to do it?

Since there are more PG styles than Norton styles, the odds are in favor of picking a PG style. But in many cases, a Norton style does a better job for that particular song.

This is perhaps because I try very hard not to duplicate any PG styles. If they end up not significantly different or IMHO an improvement over the PG style, I see no reason to fix what isn't broken.

My aim is not to compete with PG Music, but to add value to BiaB. Don't buy my stuff instead PG goods, buy them to add to PG's products.

Most of my customers who buy once, come back for more, so I guess I'm doing something right.

I'm a dedicated PG Music fan, and have been since I discovered BiaB on my Atari, when BiaB/PC (we called it IBM back then) was still a DOS program. I've watch it grow and grow since then, and believe that I'm doing something that does not compete with BiaB, but instead makes it more valuable.

Unfortunately, unless you have all the PG styles and the Norton styles, the fake disks are not 100% plug and play. But then I think most of us like to mess around with BiaB anyway, it's one of the things that make it different from the music-minus-one files.

So if you want to do "Misty" as a jazz waltz with a swing B section, in BiaB you can do that (I was in a band that did that a long time ago, and it was fun).

OK I'm rambling and waxing nostalgic now, so I'll stop.

Notes

I might add that, with many of the Realtracks Styles, we can indeed use a 4/4 style in a 3/4 song and it will play as 3/4 and often sounds great.

Experiment.



--Mac

Bob/jazzmammal, you are right. Thanks.

That (in bold) was the part I missed in reading the website - where the actual text is:

I also suggested a style for each song from all the styles that were available for Band-in-a-Box when I compiled this disk. It is not necessary to have the book or my styles to enjoy this disk, but your fun will definitely be enhanced if you do.

page link: http://www.nortonmusic.com/fake24.html

Okay so now it is 100% confirmed they DO use some proprietary styles in the fakebooks, that explains why this song did not load. It also confirms there could be quite a few more, so I need to be prepared for it.

Oh and @ Bob, I get what you are saying, and for 500 songs , yeah mebbe do-able, but I am talking about 15 fakebooks, which is a LOT more than 500 songs

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Are you going to take all 15 fake books to the gig? If so good luck.

FWIW- This is what I would do. In fact this what we did in our wedding band. First know your audience. Are you going to play bar gigs? Weddings? Both? Chirstmas parties or retirement parties?

Once you define your audiences pick out around 100 or so songs that they would like then pick your BiaB styles for those songs and learn the songs. When a request comes in that you don’t have state that you will learn that one for the next gig. Then do it. You will build up a working repertoire this way.

Like I said that is how we did it, except we did not use BiaB. We used humans so a couple of appropriate fake books did the job for us.

Hi Mario,

nope I don't use paper anymore

They are all PDF'd on my iPad. I have been playing live gigs for about 27 years now so I guess I have a reasonable idea of how it all works but I am always open to new ideas

My "working" rep is about 975 songs and counting. I rarely play the same set twice. Keeps my personal interest level set at high, and forces me to keep on my toes as far as songs go. IE no complacency can set in, and each time I do a tune it still feels new - sorta kinda

Dennis

"Notes"

My apologies, I may have added to the confusion with my post, and my inference of "PG only styles." It wasn't intended to put a bad light on your products. Obviously, caused by my not reading ALL your web site text. [But it is a little like reading the contraindications on all my meds and I take almost as many meds as you have styles! (that was a good natured rib - before hate posts start)]

But you have cleared it up here, and in your email to me earlier today.

And as you can tell from my earlier order today: after all these years with BIAB, also since DOS days, I FINALLY bought a few of your Fake Disks AND a fairly good covering of your Power User Style disks - playing with them now.

Larry

Dennis,

The question I would ask you is, do you actually plan to buy ALL 15 matching Norton Fake Book Disks? If so, bless your heart for adding to the economy!

In any case, I do wish you well and good luck!

Larry

Hi Dennis,

Great name BTW. It’s my middle name!

Anyway when I wrote my previous message I didn’t know if you did or didn’t play any gigs yet. It sounds like you are another old pro at it! So I hope you didn’t take any offense in it!

You have about 3x the amount of songs in your rep as in ours. But we did jam a lot on stage in just about any genre there is. That is the only part of playing out that I miss. That is why I am having so much fun with BiaB. I can play what I want when I want to play it.

Have fun at your gigs.

Yes I was considering it Larry - but I have now found a couple of tags missing in some tunes as well, no biggie, but just another thing I would need to edit. Bottom line is though, ALL the chords are entered which takes 90% of the work away

I just think it would be nice to have all my books matched up to BIAB. And the cost is tax deductable after all

Jury is still out though, as I don't play ALL the tunes in the books.

But I will probs still look at the "box" set

Dennis

I knew I liked you for a reason Mario

Nah m8, no offence at all.

Yes, it is the one thing I miss - playing with people and not just a PC...you want change, just yell out (or in some cases look). We didn't need to pre-plan anything. Just everyone knew the head and the changes and we just ran with it. Pop and rock songs, jazz or country didn't matter. All were treated the same.

BIAB is brilliant (and the Norton disks are tempting) and I LOVE playing along with the Real Styles and Drums, but it "aint quite the same" I think you get what I am sayin'

Dennis

I've gone paperless on the gig myself - my laptop holds more charts than my ring binder notebook ever did.

Still, I think it's very brave to go on the gig with BiaB and a bunch of fake books. But then the idea of being able to cover thousands of requests is very enticing.

If I were to do that I'd be sure to have all the PG and all the Norton Styles - it's expensive but the old saying is "you have to spend money to make money".

If I was to take the time to scan each chart, I'd also take the time to listen to each song. But that's me. I'm not as brave as others

But, there is more than one right way to do almost everything.

Yeah Bob, it can be a bit daunting, but that's what keeps it fresh, exciting and just a bit (well a lot) scary

I think what you are suggesting is the way to go (assuming the method I am using for charting at gigs) ie have all the styles. To buy all your style disks and fakebooks is a quite an expensive exercise so I really need to be sure before I jump. I am pretty much an "all or nothing" sorta guy - it's why I bought the full BIAB package.

For anyone else reading this thread, I can say that the support (private, not just on this thread) has been great. And apart from minor things, these Fakebooks look the goods

Cheers
Dennis

Absolutely big dog!

I would never ever load up a Biab song that I hadn't already listened to and tweaked at home first. Ever.

If somebody dropped a fifty on me I still wouldn't do it that way. I would just pull up the chart and play it myself on piano but if it was some rockin dance thing that I couldn't do by myself I might say let me figure it out on the break and then I'll do it. I'll throw the headphones on, pull it up in Biab, get it right and then do it live.

Bob

I would. Matter of fact, for fitty bucks request of one song, I'd perform the thing on a kazoo if that's what the benefactor wants, I mean, how long would it be? *grin*


Go on, take the munny an' run...



--Mac

Expanded Styles???

First, I share everyone's admiration for Norton products and support. Totally great.

I have a few Norton discs (none of the fake discs as yet...and maybe there's a difference).

But a few on the tunes on the disc (or downloads) have "expanded styes". And IF I recall correctly and apologize if I don't...you MUST have the proper Norton proprietary "expanded style" or the tune won't play correctly with ANY PG style.

If that is WRONG and if there is a way to conform a BIAB style to an "expanded style" created by Norton I would love to get advice on how to do that.

Best,

Jim

Absolutely - jeez one "request tip" like that is about what one would get for a whole night even a comb and some tissue paper would do

Seriously though, why not?

If one has all the styles loaded, and the FakeBooks/selected styles are accurate to the charts..I really cannot see the problem...especially as the only parts I have playing are drums and bass..

Dennis

Likely that those who wouldn't take the chance aren't doing Jazz.

The problem with fake book chords is that a lot of them are wrong or not what the name players play. Listen to Herbie and Miles on "All of You", Bill Evans on the same song. Check out Chick on "How Deep Is The Ocean". The fake book chords just don't cut it. I have at least a couple of thousand tunes in BIAB and iRealb that I use on gigs and most of the chords have been changed from the stock ones to better ones. Just my 2 cents worth. Later, Ray

I remember reading a book by pianist Dick Hyman in the late 1960s that had the 'real' chords written over the 'standard' fake book chords. Ever since I saw that, I take most fakebooks with some skepticism.

Then there's fools like me who know the fakebook chords pretty much, also know the real chords as personally transcribed from the recordings - and are very likely to substitute their own favorites from time to time.

One of my pet peeves are those who spend their time arguing over which chord is "right" -- in a jazz tune.


--Mac

+1

Yep I hear what you are saying Ray...

But the whole point here is that the FakeBook disks Nortons have produced are a chord for chord transcription of EXACTLY what is in the legal Real Book being used. So if one opens to any tune in the RealBook, then loads the tune from the Nortons folder, they will match. Simple as that.

If a chord is "wrong" then both are "wrong" at the same time, so no problemo hey

Dennis

If Norton's files are BIAB files, then the chords can be changed to the preferred ones. When I hear other musicians play, it's easy to hear whether they're playing stock chords or better sounding ones. I work with a piano, vocal, bass and drums quartet. I have a bass book, with better chords written out for all our tunes. If we have a request not in our book, chances are that it's in iRealb. iRealb by the way has chords that are a step above those in the fake books. When I talk about preferred chords, it's because they make a song sound better. We should all want a song to sound better. I'm not talking about subbing chords just to be subbing. Of all the good players I've heard around the D.C. area, I've never heard any of them play the fake book chords. For example, the song "But Beautiful", is written: GMaj9///| Bm7b5/E7/ }. If you add a C13(+11) on the third and fourth beat of the first bar it sounds much better. Later, Ray

P.S. Most of the bassists I work are so knowledgeable that if they're reading fake book chords they automatically play the better sounding ones.

hmmm I tend to respectfully disagree - I also own iRealBook and a lot of the progs are per FBs, some are a little different as they are posted by owners and members of the forum, and a LOT use the same subs that the players used. Check some of the Bill Evans chord subs in some of the books and you will see what I mean.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post though Ray I have a similar philosophy, except I tend to make changes on the fly, which are different (slightly) from one play through to the next..and also quite different to the book...but still following similar root patterns. It is more about embellishment for me rather than wholesale changes.

Dennis

PS: re your PS - the bass players I play with don't play chords

Woah guys, I never said I wouldn't do any tune in the world if someone laid a fifty on me. Damn straight I would. Anybody remember the old Steve Allen bit called Stump the Band? Nobody in the audience ever called a real song, oh no it was some completely unknown thing Aunt Hazel wrote at little Joe's birthday party 20 ago so what did Steverino do? He would have the person sing part of the song and then everything got turned into an ice cream changes old 50's tune. I've done that before and would not hesitate to do it again for real dough.

All I was saying is I don't trust computers and Biab in the middle of a gig pulling up a song I had never tried out before. I said I would fake it on piano if I had to and for fifty bucks I would just have to wouldn't I? Believe me I would come up with something.

Bob

And in any case - these Nortons books are ONLY so I can improve the request side of gigs. I mean I can do any request as solo piano form any of the books (within my abilities) of course, but having the tune ready in combo form, just makes it a tad better for the requester - maybe a few extra cents in the jar

Any of the tunes I am gong to be doing on a regular basis I will have my own preferred chart, style and turnarounds all preset.

Dennis

all good Bob ...I sorta figured you would

I must admit to being a bit iffy re PC's live myself. But it is a "needs must" . I want the superb VSTi sound, that you simply cannot get with hardware keyboards (apart from the REAL instrument that is)

So as I am forced to use a PC, I am trying to exploit it to the full potential.

Dennis

"We thank you all for your requests - but we already have our show planned!" --Dizzy Gillespie

I Real Book is a different app than iRealb. I wouldn't pay $1.00 for I Real Book. iRealb is an app for I pad and android. Much more sophisticated than I Real Book. In some other forums, I Real Book is called a waste of money. Check out iRealb. I believe it still costs around $10.00. Great practice app and good to use on gigs also. Later, Ray
I Real Book was discussed here BIAB a year or two ago and deemed pretty much a rip-off.

http://www.irealb.com/

Yep iRealb is the one I have. I already knew that It was just a way of typing it out and I didn't realise you were going to be so pedantic, you must be a REAL jazzer ...and btw I refer to my previous post

I understand that. I'd want to be sure before I jumped into something like that myself. I've spend money on things that didn't work for me before, they may have worked for others, but if they didn't work for me it wasn't a good investment of my hard earned cash.

And thanks for the kind words about my support. I try to treat my customers the way I would want to be treated if I were the customer.



I wouldn't either, but then I can see others doing it. Perhaps if I were a single instead of a duo and if I was doing background music instead of mini-concert or dance type venues. But I tend to be the type to spend a lot of time on the tunes I do before doing them.

On the other hand, I've played in enough jam sessions to see where Dennis is coming from.



I tried to do jazz, but found I needed a day-gig to support my jazz habit. There just isn't enough jazz around here to support a full-time jazz cat. So I play to the local market instead.

I was a regular in a weekly jazz that attracted people like Ira Sullivan, Duffy Jackson, Red Rodney and other greats (The guitarist used to work for Ira) but that was a once a week gig. Six other nights they brought in a pop music band. The jazz may have been mentally rewarding, but I had to pay the bills. When my other pop band started getting booked enough to cause conflicts, I had to quit the jazz thing. It was that or get a day gig, and to me that's the ultimate sell-out. (What? Work for someone else? Doing something other than music? -- I tried that twice and it didn't work out.)



I invented EXPANDED styles many years ago. They solve two problems that were not addressed in BiaB

• BiaB limits you to 4 chords per measure. Many of the songs in fake books have more than 4 chords in a measure.
• Many songs have a chord on a particular beat and a different chord on the eighth note before the same beat. In BiaB you cannot push a chord and have it play again the beat.

Solution:

By considering each measure in BiaB a 'cell' instead of a measure, and doubling the tempo, two cells in BiaB become one measure and you can put up to 8 chords in every measure of music - that includes one on the beat and the eighth before the same beat.

But to do that you need to double the tempo and use a style that was written to consider each BiaB cell a half measure.

My EXPANDED styles do just that. People who purchased them have called them amazing.



This is true. Many list the original chords of the song not the contemporary. And the chord substitutions seem to evolve with time. But for a quick request, I'm sure the chords in most major Fake Books would do. I do want to point out one major exception - the original, illegal Real Book. It seems to me that the people who did that book had the philosophy "If the chord is good enough to play, it's good enough to substitute" and IMHO many of the substitutions detracted from the melody of the tunes.



My Fake Disks number 3 and 14 go with the Dick Hyman books with the correct chords and Dick Hyman's substitutions. My Fake Disks 8 through 12 do the same thing but with Frank Mantooth's substitutions. They all include two versions of each song, one with the standard chords and another with the artist's substitutions.



Gotta agree. There is more than one right way to do most things, and especially play music. What sounds right to one musician might sound wrong to another. Jazz is about improvisation, and that includes the chord substitutions. But one must exercise taste as you can get too far away from the tune and lose most of your audience.

On the other hand, the great saxophonist Paul Desmond used to say he was a curmudgeon about playing the correct chords, and I find no fault with any of Desmond's work.

I save the requests that I don't know, and if I get enough requests for a particular song, I'll evaluate it and if I think we can do a decent job with it, we'll learn it. I have always had the attitude that if you stand on stage long enough, the public will tell you what they want to hear.

And if I don't know the request, I'll first compliment the requester on their taste in music, apologize for not knowing it, tell them we'll put it in our list of songs to learn, and try to get something close, either in the same style or by the same artist.

It might go like this for the fictitious song Snorkel Love by the fictitious Elvis Jones: "What a great song! We know it but I'm sorry, we just don't know how to play it. Wait a sec, I'll write it on our list of songs to learn. We can do another song by Elvis Jones, Dipsy Diver, or how about Island Mama by the group Carib-bean?"

Usually works (depending on the attitude and/or alcohol level of the requester).

Still, the idea of packing all 32 of my fake books with all the styles is intriguing. Like I said, I'm chicken to do so but in my mind's eye, I can see an advantage to it.

When I was 18 we used to go into a bar that had an organist playing (I forget his name) and his skill was that he learned a million songs. Had them all memorized. It was amazing, I've never seen him stumped by any legitimate request. And some of the patrons did try to stump him. I once asked him how he did it and he just said, "I don't know. I just can." It seemed that if he heard it anytime in his life, he could just play it.

So the idea of having BiaB, all the fake books and all the charts on a laptop lets me fantasize about being a guy like that. But I'll leave that to the brave, I'm still too chicken to do it.

Insights and incites by Notes

Terrific post Bob, good stuff!

Thanks

Dennis

Michel this is a great piece of software. Perhaps there were some initial problems with this program in start, several people seemed to have problems. But version 5.1 works exactly as described. It is certainly legal. While the term fake book has illegal implications this software is royalty paid and legal.I just purchased realbook1,2, and 3 and hope to get more that he offers. It is not cheep and is has a little learning curve but worth it for my needs. I am a 74 year old sax player that has played mostly by ear all my life and now want to hone my reading skills. I own Sonor Producer, Band in a Box with Real Bad full hard file edition, Smart Score and I rank this program up the cause it works with band in a box and shows me the real book sheet music. Having it all together is very convenient. I love it

Glenn Dawson

What a blast from the past - a 4 year old thread. But my recommendation at the time is still the same today. This has to be the only software purchases that really aggravated me. I tried to work with the supplier and it only got worse. When you screw with you customers, some of them don't forget.

Glenn, I assume I was part of the "several" people, what at the odds?