If I am correct, there are roughly 3,000 styles in BIAB.

I would like to know if these numbers are enough for all of you, or would you still buy other styles? In this question, I don't talk about creating new styles yourself as I myself don't know how to do it.

My sincere thanks,

ALL of Western Music is about Style of playing.

"Non-Western" World Musics, even moreso.

Chord changes, Note Choices, even Melody, are finite in scope.

Style, on the other hand, which is delineated by Rhythms, Feel, Instrument Choices, Timbres, "Cross-Pollination" between genres - when done with that certain something that we often define as "good taste" - which is Temporal, actually, means that today's Style Files will not be able to duplicate tommorrow's Current Event.

We already see people wanting (*demanding!*) Styles that are able to reproduce popular songs and compositions that are now in vogue, awaiting pgmusic style development to create them and add to the list.

Band in a Box represents many different aspects of the craft to many different users. One may want the program to use in their Songwriting and Composition, another as Auto-Accompaniment in their Recording Endeavors, another just wants the program to serve as their backup band for use in practicing and improving their musical skills, add to that the fact that there are so many differing genres, for example, someone who is a Bluegrass player won't use BB in the same exact fashion as someone who is a Blues player, or a Classical Musician, or a Country Musician, or one of the several different kinds of Jazz musicians to include Vintage Jazz, Dixieland Jazz, Swing, Bebop, Modern Jazz or Free Jazz, well, all of the above and more demand those Style Files as suits the particular situation.

Too many Styles?


I say, "Not Enough!"



--Mac

+1 on that, Mac.
It says I have 3371 styles and yet I still create my own personal Styles by cherry-picking from midi and RTs.
That's the fun and joy of BB.
Ia

I also have 3371 styles.

Styles are like guitars in that you can never have too many of them

The funny thing is each of us will say I really only use certain styles but none of us use the same styles. There's a very active group of users for every category of style listed.

Bob

Yabut, a small furry animal with voice in the back of one's head that pops up at times like this
With all the styles I still don't know them well enough to find what I want. I get lost while hunting a style and lose the feel for what I'm looking for.
Yea more is better but I need a chip implant to remember them all
Here's an off the wall idea, how about we record a style tempo like Ba, teda,da da and BIAB searches the best 5 styles that come close.
There can be too much but not enough
Wyndham

Interesting topic....

short answer: no

With the, well over 3000 styles in BB, nope.... I still have occasions where I can't find anything close to the style I'm looking for.

Forget about trying to make a style...the process seems so complicated to me.... just watched about 15 minutes of a video explaining just how to do a drum style..... you got to be kidding me.... my brain started to hurt....

I normally just try to find a style close to what I think would be a good groove for a given song.... if it's a cover, (which I rarely record) or to compose something new.... I can make it work with one of those 3000+ styles, generally, to my satisfaction.

Would it be cool to have 6000 styles....? Of course. But I'd probably still not find exactly what I wanted.

That's like saying, are there too many songs written?

The answer to each is a resounding "No".

Example, I wrote a cha-cha style for BiaB and used it on Perez Prado's "Cherry Pink And Apple Blossom White". We were playing on the cruise ships at the time and a lot of ballroom dancers used to come to our lounge.

So at their request, I learned "Never On Sunday" as a cha-cha, using the same style, but into the improv section of the song, it was completely uninspiring because it sounded just like "Cherry Pink" which was already explored.

So I wrote a slightly different cha-cha style and it worked for the entire song better.

That's just one example. I've had the same experience with rock, country, blues, salsa, calypso, reggae and other styles of music.

With Western pop music, one size does not fit all.

I agree that with so many styles it takes longer to find the right style for a song. But on the other hand you have a much better chance of finding just the right style for that song instead of one that you will say, "Oh, I guess that'll do."

So IMHO there cannot be too many styles.

Insights and incites by Notes

I agree, although there are styles I probably never use, with the new feature where one can preview a style on the fly it makes it a lot easier to find something one can use on a particular song. I for instance, like to experiment with different sounds and styles; some work some don't, that's the fun of it.

Mike B.

I'm with Wyndham on this one. It would be great to be able to somehow enter a known song title or a riff or the rhythm you're looking for and get back a list of styles that are similar. Not sure how that would be implemented, but it would go a long way towards making it easier to find a style you could use.

You could enter the song title in the search feature, but from our experience doing fake books, that doesn't work well.

The reason is that in the early days, a generic sounding style might be suggested for a particular song, years later a style that has different aspects of the same song, editions later another, then a better one comes along, and so on. So the result is a half dozen or more styles that equally don't work for the song in question, and further testing finds a style that is better than all the others but is NOT assigned to that song and doesn't come up in the search dialog.

The larger the menu becomes, the more difficult the choice, but on the other hand, the greater the odds are of finding just the right style.

For me the extra time and work is worth it. Of course YMMV.

Insights and incites by Notes

.
I recently got a commission to create a series of sngs in the classical Chinese style. I created a half dozen new styles for that gig. Probably never will use them again...

I am mainly interested in jazz styles and therefor I have to say there are not nearly enough jazz styles available. There are too few basic rhythms sections to use. I do not think that adding a soloist to a rhythm section makes it a new style and I don't really have a use for soloists anyway. Although I confess, I sometimes listen to Ian McDougall solos to get some ideas for my own.

I think some of the existing styles could be improved - strange bass lines, no hi-hat on the off beat and insufficient fast tempos are the small annoyances I would like corrected. Yes, I know the simpler bass lines were introduced when some of us complained before.

Notwithstanding, I probably spend more hours in a day with Band-in-a-Box than I do with my partner or dog. I know, because they both complain constantly.

I would also point out that some of the new jazz styles that came out with 2014, such as RT196 Jazz PollWinners, are just excellent without the aforementioned annoyances and I am using them pretty exclusively this year. More like these, please!

I write aftermarket styles and so I get feedback from my very loyal customers. I hear all of the following:

• There aren't enough rock styles
• There aren't enough country styles
• There aren't enough dance styles
• There aren't enough European styles
• There aren't enough Caribbean styles
• and so on

Many of the above complain that there are too many jazz styles.

What does this all mean?

It's simple, 3,000 styles aren't enough. There might be too many of the styles you don't care to use, but there aren't enough of the styles that would work best for the type of music you want to play.

• When you buy a Cable TV subscription, there are plenty of channels you don't watch - you get it for the things you do want to see
• When you buy a music book, you get it for the songs you want to play and there are plenty you will probably never go to
• Do you read every article in the newspaper or a magazine?
• When you google something do you read every hit?
• When you buy road map do you drive on every road on the map?
• When you buy a radio do you listen to every station?

We buy things for what we want, and since many things are more economical to buy in the variety pack, we should consider the things we don't want as free extras, and if the things in the pack are worth the money, the free extras can be discarded.

Which leads me to this.

If you have styles in your pack that you don't think you ever want to use, why not make a new folder in BiaB, call it "Free extra styles", and drag the styles you don't want in there. Don't discard them, because next year your tastes might change a bit. But if they are in a separate folder, re-building the Style Picker Window should relieve you of the clutter.

I haven't tried it, but I think it should work.

Insights and incites by Notes

Many genres constantly evolve and morph so genre labels can't be used as a guide to meet expectations as much as they could in the past. That's true in the music marketplace and true with PG Music styles.

As long as new music comes out, there will be a need for new styles.

I want more styles! I find there are a lot of styles I would never use like jazz. I don't play it. don't listen to it. don't need those styles. so I often filter when searching and just uncheck that box. that helps a lot.

then when it comes to finding what I want I sometimes find many styles are very similar to each other. I often click through quite a few and they seem to be slight variations of the same general style.

and I have a hard time locating anything in modern pop and rock and Americana. if I want Dire Straits or ZZTop or British invasion there are some nice styles but when I don't want that dated sound I find it harder to locate something.

now don't get me wrong...this is NOT criticism! BIAB is amazing and I continue to be blown away at all of the backing I can create with it! but, yeah, MORE styles and more RealTracks would be great!

Think about this:

It must be a constant piece of work for pgm to stay abreast of "new" sounds and style, then create same, which often will mean going out there and not only finding, but attracting excellent players of the "new" style and then procuring their talents and time to put together some RealTracks.

On top of that, it surely must also take a bit of time to weed out what styles are likely to be more popular in the first place - or spend the time and money rolling a style that "only works for one song" type of thing.

This year, though, we have been awarded with the USER TRACKS, which should go a long way towards providing all sorts of "MORE STYLES" in all genres. Time will tell how that shakes out. At this point in time, I think we are still getting the word out about this feature, which I'm hoping will attract more players to BB in the first place. The ability to clone yourself in soloing alone seems worth it to me.


--Mac

Great points Mac! I am trying to find some time to sit down and UserTrack my fingerpicking style, my strumming, my power-chording, etc. I think it would be so cool to have a library of ME that I can use. I don't know if I am good enough yet to make something consistent enough to be used in a UserTrack but I am sure gonna try!

Roughly 1/3 of the 3000+ styles are jazz and latin. Of those I use maybe 10-12 and only Real Tracks. I, for one, would like to see more jazz real tracks, similar to the new ones in 2014. Later, Ray

It's a good point you make Ray

3000 styles is enough - if you can use everyone of them for your own purposes.

If the user only finds a few that are suitable, then obviously more would be better.

I personally rarely use a bog-standard style. I will start a song with one that has as close as possible match with what I have in mind but THEN I will switch out the individual tracks for tracks that suits the song and what I am trying to do with the song.

The 3000 styles is just 3000 permutations of the individual tracks that was created by PG to, in my brain, give you a good starting point.

That, coupled with the Solo generator and the trusty old F5 key does the real good work for me .....

So, having said all that, the amount of real TRACKS (not necessarily the STYLES) is "nearly" enough for me .......

The way around that, and a method I use all the time is to compose it in BB and use the style you want. Totally ignore what it sounds like at this stage of the game. Save it and open it in Real band and then choose the exact tracks you like from the real band tracks to use in the song.

As a style author, I find it very difficult to categorize styles at times. Sometimes a style might fit in the Jazz, Latin, and Pop categories. Which should I assign?

And although there are some excellent RT styles, using an old MIDI style and a bit of imagination can transform a dance hip-hop style into a smooth jazz style. Choose a mellower drum set, change the synth bass to a fretless or acoustic, change the synth comp to a Rhodes or grand piano, and so on.

You can change rock, country, blues, and so many other styles into something else just by changing the instrument patch.

And someone mentioned similar styles with slight variations. I tend to like that. Sometimes those slight variations are just what are needed to accompany a certain song while another slight variation wouldn't work as well. As a career gigging musician, I know all too well that subtle little nuances can make a very big change in a song.

Of course the >3,000 PG Music styles plus the >600 Norton Music styles plus the Hawkesford styles, plus the Mayrent styles makes for a time consuming style search, especially for the newbie who is unfamiliar with how many of the styles sound. But IMHO it's good, quality time with a trusted friend, BIAB. Plus it's interesting, fun, and the results are worth it.

I use BiaB as a scratch pad for making backing tracks for my duo - here is how i make them and how I use them on stage http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html

Often times I learn a new song that has been requested by an audience member and there is simply no suitable style in BiaB to cover it. In those cases I have to sequence the tune from scratch, without the help of BiaB. That is much more time consuming than finding styles, and it's a lot more work too. So I jot that song down in my notes and there are hundreds of new styles waiting to be written.

For me >6000 styles probably would barely scratch the surface of what I need.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes, I was going to say the same thing but you did it for me and better than how I could have said it.

I have taken piano parts and turned them into vibes, guitar parts and turned them into strings etc and etc with MIDI. All I can add to your comments is that with MIDI you can change tempos with no audio artifacts. Also by changing tempos some of those jazz styles sound great in country or visa versa.

RTs are great and I do use them but MIDI is still my main workhorse.

I'm with you.

If the RT fits right, it's delightful. If it's almost right, it can't be tweaked very much.

If a MIDI is almost right, it can be tweaked quite a bit.

Two different tools for making music in the long run are better than one.

Insights and incites by Notes

If one can drop the mutually exclusive "either/or" mindset and start working with both MIDI and RealTracks together at the same time, they will be better situated to take full advantage of what the program can do.

MIDI use allows us to specify certain aspects of the music, such as Riffs, Hooks, Melody, etc.

Adding some RealTracks/RealDrums to play along with the MIDI has an effect of its own that is rather uncanny - the MIDI parts can sound much more "real" when heard within that context.

Consider that a live combo might have "real" instruments in it, guitar, bass, drums, horn(s) etc. - these days, though, when you get to the Keyboard section of that group, you will be listening to MIDI the greater majority of the time. MIDI Pianos, MIDI Strings, MIDI organs, MIDI clavinets, MIDI Electric Pianos, etc.

And that is not viewed as being "cheezy MIDI" at all.

So what's the difference between a Live Player playing the MIDI keyboard with your ensemble and a Live Player playing a MIDI keyboard on your Recording?

MIDI gets the bad press more because of those who try to use MIDI to play instruments that they themselves really do not or cannot play, resorting to Step Entry programming rather than simply Recording a good performance.

That's not to knock Step Entry methods, but the use of Step Entry usually must involve a LOT of time and knowledge in the Editing, Massaging, and etc. of the track before it begins to lose its cheeziness.

Imagine what it would sound like if you attempted to record an open G chord on guitar - one. note. at. a. time. - and then expect to assemble that to sound like someone simply fingering the open G on a good sounding acoustic, and playing one downward strum...


--Mac

I agree with Mac on this. And except for someone like Elton John, Billy Joel, or Michael W Smith, it's rare to see an acoustic piano on stage any more. So guess what folks, what you're getting is MIDI generated music. And even those guys use electronic keyboards on a number of their songs.

I like the mix of the two and the fact that I can enter specific riffs, counter melodies, etc only with MIDI. RT's won't allow that.

I agree with Mac on this also but with one possible exception. I think MIDI gets a bad rap here because one uses it with an inexpensive GM sound set. Any MIDI file, even purchased pro ones or the SuperMIDItracks, can sound like crap when using those sound sets. But replace them with some better more costly sound sets those parts can sound super.

I do agree that Step Entry input methods can sound bad without some massaging regardless of what your sound set.

Just my thoughts – peace.

Not sure I exactly follow. If a musician is using a keyboard live on stage, the keyboard can have its own audio outs, without using any MIDI, surely?
Regards
Trevor

The sounds that come from the Audio Outs of virtually every electronic keyboard made today are internally generated using MIDI commands and internal MIDI synths/samplers.

You are still using MIDI, it is just internal to the keyboard.


--Mac

I was very leery of MIDI because there is so much awful MIDI music out there! So, generally, I always use BIAB for RealTracks only. But, I recently purchased GPO4 and Addictive Keys and, for piano at least, I am absolutely blown away at what I can do! I still cannot get BIAB to work consistently (maybe it's me) with these plugs but the couple of times things have worked it has been amazing!

OK, I understand. I know my Roland keyboard definitely has its own circuitry that is separate to the MIDI, which is handled by a separate processor. The keyboard latch and decoders go directly to the Effects board via an ADC, and also to a separate CPU which handles MIDI. Times change. Thanks for the clarification.
Regards
Trevor

But the sound is generated by MIDI.

There is nothing wrong with General MIDI either, because there is no sound to any MIDI. All General MIDI does is assign certain voices to certain patch numbers, so patch 1 is always a piano, 33 is always an acoustic bass, and so on.

But GM doesn't tell the synth how the piano, bass, sax or whatever is supposed to sound like.

ImHO MIDI gets a bad name for two reasons, both of which were mentioned:

1. Cheesy synthesizers - General MIDI or not, there are some terrible sounding synths out there. A MIDI file that sounds great on a Kurzweil might sound terrible on the sofware synth that came with your computer
2. Step entry - sure some techno/dance songs are supposed to sound robotic, but most music is not. Step entry quantizes the notes, does not enter any dynamics, and for most forms of music, those suck the expression out of it. A skilled musician can indeed massage the step entered file into something expressive, but it's a lot of work and takes a lot of time.

According to Alan Parsons (who should know) MIDI has been embedded into the DNA of virtual every hit record for the past 30 years. So if MIDI is cheesy, almost all hit records sound cheesy. Of course that isn't true.

I like both Real Tracks and MIDI tracks, and use the one that is most appropriate for the song or the track in the song. Mix and match works well (as Mac pointed out).

Just because you bought a new crescent wrench for your toolbox, there is no reason to throw out the hammer.

IMHO The software synth that came with my laptop and the old Virtual Sound Canvas that used to come with BiaB plus all it's followers sound adequate for practicing, but aren't ready for prime time.

There are different solutions to that problem. Some people like software synths, and I prefer an array of hardware synths. Either one works, depending on the quality of the synths you buy.

Here are a couple of clips. I know I've posted them before and I need to start recording on the gig again. They were recorded with an old pre-iPod Archos Juke Box hung a few feet in front of the PA speakers on a gig. Everything but the voice is MIDI. The only reason why it sounds a thin is the mic on the Archos and the bit rate it had to be recorded at:

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_sunshinesax.mp3

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_oldtimeguitar.mp3

The backing tracks were made by me with the help of BiaB and then exported to a sequencer where extra parts were added. The lead sax and guitar were played live on the gig by me using a Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller and a Yamaha VL70-m MIDI sound module.

There are no Real Tracks on those clips, because PG hadn't invented them yet at the time I recorded the tracks. But if I did them over, I might add a RT or two as long as they were appropriate to my 'artistic' vision (whatever that means)

Insights and incites by Notes.

I don't think you can view a modern Movie without hearing MIDI at work somewhere in the Underscore these days, either.

And that stuff sounds gooder'n good.


--Mac

I agree, just listen to some of the manufacturers "sound sample" demo's from their own MIDI devices. Sure, a bit of work went into getting them just right, but the sounds are MIDI controlled, nevertheless.

Some of the quality is quite unbelievable. Even these ones from the 'pocket sized' SD2

I consider the ‘pocket size’ SD2 as a pro instrument. If one wants or needs to work in GM this is a mandatory buy IMHO.

Hi Mario
Yes I agree, it is definitely a 'Pro' device. I certainly wasn't suggesting because it's small it doesn't cut it. I own and use one too! Great little unit.
Cheers
Trevor

I don't go to the movies anymore, instead I rent them when they come to Netflix.

The theaters are too cold and they play the soundtrack at an ear damaging volume (way over (85dba SPL - I brought a meter to one a decade ago and the volume went over 110dba - instant ear damage) - I put in my Westone musician's ear filters.

The Netflix bonus is the fact that there are extras on the DVD. The little shorts (so I call them BVDs <grin>). Sometimes they are very good, sometimes boring, I watch the interesting ones. Often there is a BVD about the music, those are mandatory - and I have seen more than one film where the entire soundtrack was done with MIDI synths. I've also seen symphony orchestras, so I guess MIDI has achieved equal standing with an orchestra as far as film scores are concerned.

But I really don't care what makes the music in the film, it's just interesting to find out.

What's important to me is; Does the music support the film? Does the music detract from the film? Is it mixed too high so as to cover up the dialog? Is it appropriate? And so on.

And on the subject. I always watch the credits, and wonder why the musicians are not always listed. The "honeywagon" drivers are there, the caterer is there, insurance agents are there, the paymaster is there, and quite a few others. Sure these are important to the making of the music, but so are the violin players, guitar players, sax players, and so on.

BTW, I just rented a great 'silent' movie done last year, Blancanieves. It's done like an old silent movie with modern cinematography tools and an orchestral score - and it's even in black-and-white (actually grey-scale).

It's a modern take on Snow White who ends up with a troop of dwarf bullfighters. The stepmother is delightfully fairy-tale over the top evil, the cinematography and editing are superb, the violence is mostly implied, the CGI work is realistic, and the music score is outstanding. Done with an orchestra plus a flamenco guitarist and singer.

Back the original hijacked topic

I don't think this one would have worked as well with MIDI. But other movies actually work better with MIDI than an orchestra (think of those sweep synth pads).

It's all a matter of choosing the right tool for the job, and we have both at our disposal.

Insights and incites by Notes

I need to be educated it seems regarding midi because everything Ive listened to sounds awful if its a guitar brass etc but I do like accoustic piano and bass.The super midi for me is a step up but at this point in time RTs is the only way for me but maybe you can show me how to use midi better.

When you say, "MIDI" it sounds like you are using the term to describe the method used to control the MIDI synth more than the actual sound of the particular synth. Two different things.

For example, the SuperTracks sound so good because they are actual MIDI Recordings of live players' performances on MIDI instruments rather than Step-Entry, automatic MIDI track creations, and the like.

The SuperTracks therefore include a LOT more of the MIDI data needed to create a track that has more than "just the notes and few velocity changes" in it.

The accomplished live player, recorded in realtime, controls the When, What, Touch, Aftertouch sometimes, Dynamics, Note Choices, subtle things like note pulloffs (yes, can even be done on a piano by hitting black key first and letting the finger slide off onto the target white key), Sustain Pedal, sometimes even Expression Pedal, and just plain musical performance knowledge and skill.

For example, if Keith Jarret were to come to your home studio and play your MIDI keyboard, or perhaps if Jeff "Skunk" Baxter were to visit and pick up your MIDI guitar, all you'd have to do is hit the MIDI Record button and let the backing tracks roll - and you'd capture that performance. Just like recording Audio.

Don't blame the Messenger (which is the MIDI data chosen to play back in this case) -- blame the Message (which is also the MIDI data chosen, just a bad sounding MIDI file).

The choice of Synth does enter into it, but the very best of MIDI synths may not sound so musically great when being used to playback some free downloaded MIDI file from an unknown MIDI programmer. Or it might sound superb. Luck of the draw there. Often is the case that the one file downloaded sounds bad, might be wise to search out another instead of trying to "fix" that bad file, or blaming the Instrument when the fault lies with the performer.


--Mac

Hi Tributeman
Mac's made some really good points. MIDI can sound bad for two reasons.

1: the MIDI data just doesn't cut it, sloppy, too rigid, un-natural, no expression where there should be, etc.
2: the synth that the MIDI is controlling has lousy sound samples.

Have a listen to some of these samples, all produced from MIDI data, and a decent synth.

Regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor like Ive said I really need to be educated on this what you linked was absolutely amazing the strat WOW! Ive gone on to Nortons site and they dont sound nothing like that yet people have said good things about that site.. so again why is what Im hearing different to the link you sent? me could it be my soundcard if so I will definately change it to get those great sounds.

Those MIDI files were made using the Ketron MIDI synth for the sounds.

Which is the point.

The Ketron SD2 hardware MIDI module sounds very good indeed.


--Mac

All my styles were also made by a musician (me) playing in real time into a MIDI sequencer. I use keyboards, wind controller and drum controllers.

After recording many minutes of each instrument into a sequencer, snippets of those live recordings were imported into BiaB.

MIDI, like anything else musician requires a learning curve. But because it's easy to play without a learning curve by step-entering, a lot of people do it that way. The result is what gives MIDI a bad name.

It's like the drums. It's easy to hit the drums but it takes a lot of practice to be a drummer.

Well, it's even easier to get a note out of a synth using MIDI, so a lot more people attempt it.

To get good MIDI you need two things:

1. A good musician to play the MIDI controller - in real time
2. A good sounding software or hardware synthesizer

And the good musician is the most important of the two.

Insights and incites by Notes

Copy and Paste what Bob just said above.

Very clear, concise and to the point explanation of what I've been tring to say in too many words.


What Notes just typed be a Truphemism, ya'll.


There aren't any shortcuts to Strong Performance.



--Mac

A good musician to play the MIDI controller - in real time
A good sounding software or hardware synthesizer
And the good musician is the most important of the two.
as Im not a good musician this might make me stay recording RTs BUT!

Maybe I should get clued up on the above Bob..Ive got a small recording studio for my songwriting using the Tascam 24 track for additional tracks mastering and mixdown..Obviously anything that will improve my demos I want to know about but as Ive just been using real tracks I havent had no problems regarding that side of it.The keyboard I use is one Ive had for quite a long time the yamaha PSR 620 mostly for strings but dont really use it that much nowadays.Any advice would be appreciated Thanks Frankie

There is only one road I know of to becoming a good musician: education and practice.

Unfortunately it isn't instant gratification. You have to learn skills and then use those skills to get to the next level. One step at a time, each new adventure results in new knowledge and a new satisfaction. It's a journey, not a destination, I could live to 200 and still have new things to learn.

On the other hand: Perhaps it's fortunate that it isn't instant gratification - if it was easy, anyone could do it and I wouldn't be able to make a living doing music and nothing but music.

A good music theory book, a lot of practice, and if possible a good teacher are all worth their weight in gold.

You would probably be surprised at how much you could learn in an hour per day. IMHO Turning off the TV for an hour and moving along the path to musical ability is much more rewarding than watching another sitcom or reality show.

Sorry if I sound like I'm on the soap box, I'm trying to be encouraging but sometimes the most gentle words just don't come.

Notes

That's a good soapbox to stand on, Notes.


--Mac

thanks Bob I apreciate the advice as I will be 70 this year Im not sure if I need to start taking up musicianship especially as it appears there are musicians on BIAB doing that for me.. Ive written some good songs that people like John David bass guitarist with Dave Edmunds and a writer of over 200 cover songs are quite impressed with (the RTs not just my songs)What I really wanted to know is can I improve my demos again using MIDI and without having to learn to play above what I do now.I play reasonable rhythm guitar and play chords on my keyboard.I was a lazy musician as I earned my living as a singer and I cant see me changing anytime soon.But if its the only way to go to improve my demos using midi then its certainly given me food for thought Thanks Frankie

If you are more comfortable on guitar than keyboard, consider one of the MIDI output guitars or adding a MIDI output pickup with converter to an existing guitar.

Then the guitar can be used to record MIDI tracks.

Three note chords, set to the Strings patch, for example, can make it rather easy for you to come up with your own String tracks. Or Piano. Vibes. etc.


--Mac

Mac great advice any suggestions on a good midi output pickup for my guitar which is a semi accoustic Fender Cheers Frankie

The bad part about MIDI guitar is there is a slight delay while the pickups analyze the frequency of the vibrating strings.

The newer pickups are much better than they used to be, and I'd advise you to check out the pickups you decide to buy and include the latency in your decision.

On the other hand, if the guitar is a few milliseconds behind you can always advance the MIDI track a few clock tics after you record it.

In the very early days I bought a pitch to MIDI controller to record my sax into MIDI, and it had quite a bit of latency, but moving the MIDI data fixed it. Now I use a Wind MIDI controller that has for all practical purposes no latency.

And although you are 70, it's not too late to start learning. Most experts say that the way to prevent senility is to learn something new, like a new language. And learning musicianship is like learning a new language.

At 70 I wouldn't expect you to become a Jeff Beck but it could be interesting and could even improve your song writing.

I picked up guitar in my mid 60s and am having a great time with it. My guitar playing friends can't believe how quickly I got pretty decent at it. But it is my 7th instrument so I carried a lot of baggage with me.

On the other hand, I'm trying to learn to converse in the Spanish language, and at times it seems pretty hopeless to me. I can get 'baby talk' sentences. But often if I ask a question, I can't understand the answer. But I plan to live to 100 so I have lots of time to improve.

Actually, I plan to live forever - so far - so good

Whichever way you go, I hope it works for you.

Notes

thanks for your advice I guess you didnt pick up my "lazy"tag..the demos Im doing now with just real tracks are in my opinion very suitable for getting to a publisher or producer..cant believe the demos I sent them in the early days yet still managed to get a publishing deal with Rondor Music.Im not saying Im giving up on midi but my question was.. is it just renewing software keyboard etc looks as if its a bit more than that.But again thanks for the advice.frankie

We're all lazy about one thing or another - or at least most of us.

I'm never lazy about music - because I love it, on the other hand there are a lot of other chores around here and it's easy to say, "You know, I need to learn a new song for the duo" or "That new Band-in-a-Box style needs tweaking and I think I know just what it needs,"

Good luck to you Frankie.

I think the RTs can be an advantage for a songwriting demo as some publishers listen with different ears from the general public.

Notes

Mac and other comments...

Very cogent comments. I can sure tell the difference between some copied midi tracks that are commercially availble.

The sampled sounds and songs that manufacturers put in their keyboards are really great, even without being midied. When I play my old Motif ES , the data produced, eithr audio or midi recorded or transmitted by midi are superb. Same for the other sounds produced by my keyboards, even the old, old M1+...

Don't know if any of you are using Windows 8, or 8.1....and using some of the free software programs that are available from X-Box...there must be over 75 of them that you can install for nothing...or for a few dollars...

The sounds you get for 3 hours of, say, Smooth Jazz selection, are fantastic when played through some good speakers. Whether are not they were recorded with straight audio, or with midi controlled instruments, is hard to tell. But the Presnce of today's various approaches to recording, can grab your attention in just milliseconds!!!!!!!!!