Has anyone come across any jazz fake books that can be inported into BIAB that have the melodies, ie sheet music of typical jazz songs ( not just chords ) that you could modify the key or tempo in BIAB, or play along with ?

Some time ago, I purchased the Jazz Norton Fake Book for BIAB but realized afterwards and was disppointed to find it contained only the chords of these tunes.

A seach of the internet hasn't come up with any good hits on this question, except for a BIAB fakebook that is sold by PGMusic. It is not clear if this is included free in BIAB 2014 or 2015 and what songs are included and if these songs include the real tune's sheet music, but the cost is $29. More info on this would be helpful.

At least one site has not recommended the PGMUSIC BIAB fakebook and described as "too limited" .

Thank you for your help.

There are plenty of file-sets available on the web, under many genres: Jazz standards, pop hits xmas, and much more. These are created by anonymous BiaB users who put them up on the web at no charge. Generally they are not very good, but they have the chords and melody right (mostly) and can be edited into something usuable. They all carry the risk of copyright violation.

Try searching for a single title + BiaB, like this: "Rudolph BiaB" A single hit may lead you to a set of files.

The problem is this. When I wrote to the publishers asking if I could include the melodies in the fake disks, they wanted to charge from $1.00 to $2.50 PER SONG. And some of the requests took up to 3 years to get answered.

Some of my fake disks have over 800 songs in them. Who would pay that much?

So I when I mentioned that I could buy a book of 800 printed songs for around $50 (not $800.00 to $2,000.00) they said, "Buy the book".

So I started doing fake disks that are companions to printed off-the-shelf fake books. You can load the Norton file, open the book, and play along.

I know that it isn't the best situation for everyone, but it's the best I can do without breaking the copyright laws.

So if you find one that is less than $1.00 per song, you can bet it's illegal.

And a lot of the files floating around the web are also illegal. It's up to your own personal ethics whether you use them or not.

Insights and incites by Notes

Thank you both for weighing in on this melody/sheet music BIAB issue.

For those of us who have a licensed copy of BIAB, purchased soundtracks of the jazz music we use, and have purchased the sheet music melodies from the likes of Jamey Abebersold and others, there has to be a way of easily inputing these melodies into BIAB for further manipulation in BIAB, without having to rely on BIAB's interpretation of the chords.

Some of us want to have the original melody/sheet music to start with and go from there.

On a side issue, one of the things that would also be nice is to have a big fake book with all the songtracks from the famous jazz musicians who played those songs on an accomanying cd ( a mega Jamie book ), though at $1 a song, it would be expensive. Wouldn't it also be nice to also have a BIAB file that you could upload to have the sheet music/melody as well ?

The more I think about it, maybe it would not be the worst thing in the world to input the melodies/sheet music into BIAB oneself if there is no other alternative. Any tips/recommendations on doing this?

There is another Band-in-the-Box forum which has nothing to do with PGMusic. They have a huge archive of tunes with melodies in their file sharing group. And also a file sharing group for tunes without melodies:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Band-in-a-Box/conversations/topics

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BIABFSG/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biabfsg2/info

The quality of these file varies enormously but it is a treasure trove.

Graham,

You are absolutely right.

I just found the BIAB yahoo groups and joined them. There are 2 file groups as it turns out, those with songs and melodies and those with songs without melodies. The former was a goldmine of songs with melodies in alphabetical order.

One can't ask for more for starters. It had all the tunes I was currently working on.

What is nice is that you click on the individual song BIAB icon and BIAB pops up. There is no typing in the name of the song or anything. It is really nice that there is a solution to this BIAB melody issue.

Thank you.

Dude, did you not read that this stuff is illegal? Don't be talking about this on this forum, you need to keep it private.

Bob

Jazzmammal: Out of curiosity, are you and administrator of this forum?

Remember the first rule of Fight Club!

I think copyright has a lot to do to catch up to the digital age. There are MILLIONS of MIDI files out there with chords and melodies. Are they all infringing their respective copyrights? Lots of programs (including BIAB) can interpret those and clearly display the notation. If they are legal, what is the inherent difference between a MIDI format data file and a BIAB format data file?

Yes they are infringing on copyrights and yes they are illegal if they did not pay royalties. In fact many of the MIDI sites with melodies were closed down by the music police.

Many of the remaining MIDI sites are for playback only like YouTube but most of us know how to DL them if we so desire.

Almost assuredly, yes, unless as Mario says they hold the rights. For example, if I as a composer decide to post a MIDI file of my composition - with melody - to the Internet for free distribution, I can do that. Most of what you might find out there isn't that, though. And it is of very questionable quality.

When I said that there are a great many free BiaB files on the web, I neglected to mention that most are worth what you pay.

Oh yeah, sure. It's just that it's in very poor taste to be talking about how to find illegal music downloads on a commercial music site.

Forum Rules:

8. Posting (or requesting) links to songs, music or other copyrighted material is forbidden. You are allowed to post links to your own original songs.

FORUM RULES are listed right at the top in big bold letters. It's not that difficult to understand.

Copyright law is spelled out in detail all over the net and you can find tons of hits in 10 seconds so please don't take my word for it. Here's one good one:

http://www.gcglaw.com/resources/entertainment/music-copyright.html

Short and sweet, chords cannot be copywritten but melodies and certain song specific musical hooks are. Technically you're not even allowed to do public performances for free without permission. Whether or not you're making a dime off of it has nothing to do with it, it's the performance that counts. Do we all violate this on a daily basis, sure but it's like driving 95 down the freeway for years and you never got caught. Doesn't make it legal, you just never got caught.

Bob

As far as I can see, nobody has violated the forum rules by either POSTING links to sites that infringe copyright or requesting same. As far as I know (and I am no a legal scholar) poor taste is not a crime. Apparently neither is behaving in a condescending fashion towards one's peers.

I don't know a single musician over the age of 50 who did not own at least one copy of the original illegal Real Book. If anyone either undertook the effort to transcribe all those tunes or purchased the sheets individually) then THAT person has the right to stand on a high horse and criticize others.

I stand by my statement that Copyright laws are outmoded in a digital age. I have legally purchased (Eb and Bb versions) of the Hal Leonard 6th edition Real Books (volumes I and II) on Kindle. Kindle is a MAJOR pain in the toches to navigate on a tablet at a session or on a gig. I converted them (illegally) to .PDF format which are much easier to manipulate in a live setting. Do I feel like a criminal for that ? No I do not, I paid for the content, and not the format. Would I LOVE to have these tunes in a format that I can transpose to accommodate vocalists? Yes, and I do. I have literally every tune I own (from having purchased via the Leonard books) in BIAB format which I downloaded from various sources over the years. I have modified a few to match the Leonard versions.

I am not saying that owning charts with melodies for which I have not paid is right and legal but, again, I have never met a single musician who has not done this.

Most standards and bop tunes in the various Real Books are 50+ years in age (since the death of the composers.) Our copyright laws are such that the rights are bought and sold by speculators (like Paul McCartney) as investment vehicles rather than benefiting the heirs of the original compositions (as the law was intended.)

So yes, there are laws we break on a daily basis, which usually are "victimless." Any one here outside of Colorado ever smoked a joint?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really can't see why downloading or sharing a MGU version of Autum Leaves can be so bad.

You probably don't rely on royalties with your income.

(I agree that a lot of royalties paid are sensless, like the ones for Happy Birthday. But many still receive those who are entitled to them.)

You would be depriving Paul McCartney of much needed income.....

http://www.mplcommunications.com/about.php

MPL Music Publishing top songs include: The Christmas Song, Baby, It's Cold Outside, Hello, Dolly!, Mister Sandman, One For My Baby, Luck Be A Lady, Summer Nights, It's Beginning To Look Like Christmas, It's So Easy, Band On The Run, Fine Line, Blue Suede Shoes, Wonderful Christmastime, Sentimental Journey, Greased Lightning, Tenderly, What Are You Doing New Year's Eve, Tomorrow, Till There Was You, Ebony And Ivory, That'll Be The Day, Riders In The Sky, Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate The Positive, Not Fade Away, Live And Let Die, I Love Lucy, Real Wild Child, Route 66!, Big Girls Don't Cry, Autumn Leaves, Hans Christian Andersen, Walk Like A Man, Sherry, In The Still Of The Night, Stay, Say Say Say, Let The Good Times Roll, Grazing In The Grass, Young At Heart, Silly Love Songs, Little Darlin', I'm Glad There Is you, My Love, Seventy Six Trombones and countless others!

OMG, not another one of these threads, What is it about the first rule of fight club we don't understand?

We are speaking about MIDI melodies of songs written (in many cases) more than 60 years ago, used mostly for practicing at home.

Maybe it's illegal, but IMO it's definitely not immoral.

"Fight Club" was a fictional novel. This is not "Fight Club." Have a nice day.

I do not agree with many of the laws, copyright laws among them. But I am not going to talk about breaking copyright laws here.

On these fora, we are the guests of the PG Music company. They publish products, and their success depends on people paying for what they produce. That is reason enough for me not to discuss the availability of products for which copying would be a violation of copyright law. This is PG territory, and I dont want to violate their welcome.

IMO, This is exactly why people use Biab to begin with. To create music using backing tracks that can and will play like the original artist.

Biab will also allow us to play these songs in different styles. To me, that is the beauty of Biab. Playing a song the way I want it to sound.

Trax

Actually BiaB, and Bob Norton's materials are the type of products that are what is called in the "style off" they sound similar too, are like but are not originals. There are some .MGU files of pubic domain stuff. Also there are .MGU files made by users. But as stated above we need to respect the property of others, and the price ledges of the folks that support this place.

Funny thing to me is when someone say regarding whether something in illegal "it does not bother my conscience"

These are just my thoughts and not condemning anyone. But what is right or wrong is just that, right or
wrong. A conscience is like a muscle, it needs work to be strong to guide us. Hhhmmm interesting conversation.

There is a phrase called the "letter of the law" vs. the spirit. I have paid for BIAB (and EVERY upgrade) since 1.0 and have never given away a copy to a "needy" friend. I have been asked hundreds of times.

On the other hand, I have often seen frantic requests for leads sheets of obscure tunes where there is likely no commercial source of the sheet music, and little likelihood of its ever seeing print. Will I give that to a fellow musician? Probably.

I have already PAID for legal copies of several fake books, usually TWICE (once in Eb and once in Bb.) Do I, or should I feel guilty about downloading a concert version without paying a THIRD time?

If I PLAY that tune in a venue that is ALREADY paying ASCAP and BMI for the right to have it performed, is THAT fair?

The intent of Copyright was to protect the Intellectual Property of the author/composer and his or her heirs. If the heirs do not care enough to renew the copyright after fifty years such that it gets swooped up by a multi-millionaire, do I feel "unethical" depriving that corporation of $.000002 of income?

There is such as thing as blindly following laws which do not make sense (http://www.dumblaws.com) There are plenty in each state. I have the utmost respect for PG Music and I don't think it violates a trust to have a DISCUSSION on a forum hosted by them on a topic germane to their products. As far as I know, Canada upholds the rights of free speech in the same manner as the U.S.

I agree. We can talk about copyright laws and the breaking of them we just can not post any copyrighted music.

I practice my guitar and wind controller using BiaB, a Fakebook and a Notes Norton Fakebook disc. I play the melody once, jam the second chorus then play the melody one last time. I would love to post these but I do not want to get PGMusic in trouble. I'll bet many of us do the same, especially jazz musicians.

PS - just don't tell the music cops that I play covers that my dogs, wife and kids can hear, I can't afford the royalties

Not to argue PJazz, but so a "millionaire" buys the rights of a tune, his ownership of that property is of less value than anyone else property? I Illustrate, a small time poor farmer owns 100 acres of land and works hard to feed his family from that land, passes it on to his children, and many years later they have lost interest in working that farm, they walk away and a major farming corporation "snatches" it up in a tax sale, is it right to steal the produce from that farm just because the original owner no longer has ownership of it? Is not that corporation afforded the right to protection by the law for the investment in that property?

i agree with you that downloading a copy of a product like sheet music that you already own seems fair. Also if you play a tune in ASCAP or BMI, then the royalties are being legally paid. The intent of copyright law may have been to protect the composer, but that law has been extended or modified to include the owner of those rights and allows the sale or purchase of said rights, just like the sale or purchase of the above mentioned real estate property.

Because a law does not make sense to us does not make it less of a law. sure there are "dumb laws" but copyright infringement is no where near something like "It is illegal to wear a fake mustache that causes laughter in church." or "You may not fish on a camel’s back." I have downloaded may of the free midi files that include melodies, but i don't keep the melodies in tact, as i don't want the melodies to play behind the track bed. I use them because i can make a decent cover, most of which i add and subtract tracks to make them some what unique. I also do not play them for the public, or sell recordings of them i enjoy them at home. if I were to play them out at a venue i would either join BMI and pay the royalty fees or play at a venue that already does.

As far as the respect for PG goes i think common sense dictates that it is fine to have a discussion about these things, but the line may be drawn somewhere around posting copyright protected material, or posting the same materials on their forums.

and hey Mario if they arrest you for playing copyright protected songs for your wife and dog then we may end up being cell mates, hope we get a file in our cake and we make a run for the border like lefty and poncho!

My argument, if you read it, was NOT that it is any more or less ethical to steal from corporations than individual composers or their families, but that the original legal intent of copyright was to protect the intellectual property of same. I just believe that when a copyright expires, and is not renewed by the survivors, that the work should immediately enter Public Domain and not become a commodity to be bought and sold by someone who had no stake in the authorship. I also believe there are few families who inherit farms that would allow them to be sold at a tax auction rather than sell the land for SOME financial gain,

Granted, my opinion does not make the current law any less valid, but it DOES affect my ethical sense in terms of whom (and to what extent) I harm should I decide to ignore the law.

Additionally, it would apparently be legal for me to TRANSCRIBE the melodies and enter them in by hand. I have in fact, done so on many occasions, and as good as it is for my ear, at this point it comes down to a matter of convenience and time. It is just a matter of time before polyphonic transcription of audio matures.

I agree the copyright law needs updating, but we are a country of laws. But if everyone ignores all the laws they don't agree with, what will we have? Anarchy? Is that better?

We have the power to change the laws, but as long as we elect people who get nominated with corporate money, we are going to be ruled by those corporations.

Whether you follow the laws depends on either your personal ethics (or lack of ethics), the probability of getting caught and/or the penalty paid if caught.

My business has been audited by BMI twice and I haven't had to change a thing. Obviously the money I paid for legal advice was worth it. So whatever you purchase from Norton Music has passed two BMI legality tests.

(BTW, I'm over 50 and never owned a copy of the illegal Real Book - so now you know one)

My own personal ethics in the music business follows: I'm a professional musician who makes his living doing music and nothing but music. I depend on people paying for my services to make a living. I also believe in "do unto others" so I abide by the copyright laws.

I know that the money I pay is not distributed fairly and the big corporations get the lion's share of the money, but I don't want anyone giving away my hard work, so I don't steal or give away the hard work of others.

But I am not the conscience of the world, those are my personal ethics. I don't even know if it's the smartest thing to do. It just seems right to me. YMMV.

Insights and incites by Notes

That is my point exactly! We each get to chose what we feel is ethical. But because we are not bothered by it, does not change the legality, and morality of it. Still what one person does is not my concern, and in the long run affects me very little. Just chose to abide by the laws to the best of my ability.

Like i said above i do have a collection of cover song midi files. I have never used them except for my personal enjoyment at home, or to play at a venue that is legally licensed for cover work, like Street Jelly and i always abide by turning in a set list at the end of any show. Mostly I chose to strip them down and re-work them to be unique. I almost always strip the melodies out, and use the basic backing tracks for track beds to add RTs, or personally played tracks to.

free will is a big responsibility i guess. Peace to all and have a great day. Make music!

Bob, do you think that using a MGU version of "Autumn Leaves" (for example) for learning the melody and practicing at home is stealing the hard work of others?

Bob is probably talking about "Autumn Leaves" being used on a recording for profit without paying the royalty fees or in a club that hasn't paid the ASCAP or BMI fees. No one cares about your use of the song at home. Later, Ray

Well, since the thread is called "Jazz Fake books with Melodies ( not just chords ) for BIAB", I thought we were discussing specifically about the legal / ethical aspects of downloading and using Jazz Fake Books in MGU (a set of chords and a MIDI melody) format.

So, If we're speaking about this specific issue, I would say that nobody in the world would use the MIDI melody of a MGU file (that is, the copyrighted element of the file) in a professional jazz recording. If you think about that, it just doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, although I don't use BIAB in live situations in clubs, I would say that 99% of the people who do that, just mute the melody track to play the melody themselves. Playing along BIAB in a club with the MIDI melody ON just doesn't make much sense either

So (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) to me it's clear that the great majority of people using jazz standards in MGU format use the files for educational purposes only, just to learn the melody taking advantage of the many features that BIAB offers to make this task much easier (notation, transposing, speeding down the melody, bar looping, playing along the chordsheet, etc, etc, etc). Let's appeal to common sense: what's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that as long as you're doing at home. One should buy legal fake books and not look for illegal freebies on the 'net. If you're looking for jazz and standard songs, Sher Music has almost everything you could want.

http://www.shermusic.com/

That's not a complete answer.



Here you're saying you don't think it's a problem to post a link to a site that infringes copyright after I quoted that exact wording from forum rule #8. Ok...

8. Posting (or requesting) links to songs, music or other copyrighted material is forbidden.

"Posting links". You guys just missed this I guess. If that's condescending I apologize.

All I did was mention the OP should stop talking about illegal downloading on the forum. I didn't say if I agreed or not or if I cared or not or if people have used fake books for years or not or any of that crap. All I did was point out the forum rule about that. Amazing how some read things into written comments that are not there.

Also, there is no such thing as free speech on a private forum. They could completely ban any discussion on any subject other than three chord blues in the key of C if they wanted to, it's a private forum.

Bob

The issue isn't about use and how you learn a new piece; the issue is about the distribution of the copyrighted material. Computers have made copying and sharing so easy, that the temptation to do so is ever present. When it was a printed book, it took a lot to copy it and give it to someone else. You didn't just push a couple of buttons and say there you go.

Are there MGU files with melodies out there? Sure there are, just like there are video files of top-run movies. The internet has made it easy to access such things, but that doesn't make it legal.

That's why I think Bob Norton has the best solution. Since chord progressions can't be copyrighted and BIAB is a legal program to work, he gets you 75% of the way there. All you need to do then is buy the legal fake book (for which royalties have already been taken care of) that goes along with his fake disks (and he even shows you where to get them), then spend some time either putting the melody in yourself, or just playing from it. If you can't do it, find a friend to do it; heck, you might find your friend likes playing music too.

That keeps everything legal, all parties properly compensated, but still minimizes the work you need to do.

Should copyright laws be changed? I think so. I think copyright in the US today is way too long. Everyone benefits when stuff gets into the public domain. Copyright for 70 years after the death of the composer; come on. That's ridiculous.

Patents are only good for about twenty years (depending on the type you get). But if I create some sort of intellectual property today at the age of 15 and live to 100, then the copyright is good for 85+70=155 years. The United States as a country is only 238 years old. And everything created prior to 1923 (91 years ago) is in the public domain.

And the latest round of copyright law increasess was the result of Walt Disney Company worrying about the mouse coming into the public domain and were able to quietly slip the increase from 50 to 70 years in with what is known as the Sonny Bono law (yes, that Sonny Bono). The irony of course, is that much of Disney's well know music (at least in the early years) was the result of using public domain music, so as not to have to pay royalties themselves.

How about a copyright for 20 years, renewable twice? If you can't make your money in 60 years, well it probably ain't gonna happen. But if you don't renew it, it goes into the public domain after 20 years. And with the internet, it's piece of cake to verify the status of any piece.

My $0.02 worth, and decreasing in value every day.

If you didn't buy it and the songwriter and publishers weren't paid for it, copyright law says "Yes".

You could have purchased it in a songbook and they would have a few more pennies in their bank account and of course if thousands of people did the same thing, they are out quite a few dollars.

You could have purchased the sheet music and they would have gotten more money. Or purchased a legal recording and learned it by ear.

There are 'fair use' laws, a teacher is allowed to copy music for a student. But if that goes to court, it gets really sticky. It's best if the teacher is a licensed teacher and the student is paying for lessons. If you just declare yourself "teacher" and the recipient "student" it doesn't work. But I'm not a lawyer, don't take this as legal advice.

Insights and incites by Notes

Thanks



I agree. Warner Brothers makes 2 million dollars per year on "Happy Birthday To You" - the melody is in public domain ("Good Morning To You") and the people who wrote the words are long dead.



Because the USA is now being run by giant corporations. It's no longer government by the people and for the people. We let too much corporate money seep into politics and both major political parties are in corporate back pockets.



I'd agree with that, but also stipulate that heirs cannot renew the license after the author dies. It will expire after the current 20 year term is up.

And if a corporate entity buys it, they cannot renew it after it is purchased.

But that will never happen as long as we keep electing the same corporate lapdogs into office.

Insights and incites by Notes

Ok, I've got it:
BIAB was designed for studying jazz standards, but studying jazz standards (*) with BIAB is illegal, immoral and just plain wrong.

Happy new year for everyone!


(*) in MGU format

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

This is why I asked if you were an ADMINISTRATOR of the forum. THAT is who gets to decide what is and is not allowed.

"Here you're saying you don't think it's a problem to post a link to a site that infringes copyright after I quoted that exact wording from forum rule #8. Ok..." WTF??? Where did I EVER even INTIMATE or IMPLY that I "don't think it's a problem?" If you are having difficulty interpreting standard written English, that is something I can't solve. I am done with this thread. I do not have time to deal with misinterpretations of clearly written statements.

January 1st, 2017 will be a black Sunday for Warner Brothers. In most of the world this song will be in the Public Domain, unfortunately not in the U.S. until 2030.

You still don't get it! If you purchase a legal fake book or sheet music, you can enter it into BIAB and practice at home to your heart's content. There won't be any copyright police knocking at your door. Later, Ray

Dude, you just did it again. I have never seen anything like this on this forum. I quoted exactly what you said yet you just now completely ignored it. What do you think these words mean?



Are you saying this wasn't you, you didn't write this, it was Casper the ghost or I just made it up or what?

And you're saying it's perfectly OK to blatantly post what is clearly against the forum rules as long as nobody in authority says anything about it? That's a great way to live your life in a civilized society. Just do anything you want and as long as the cops never catch you it's just fine. Great. Lovely way to live.

There's never enough time for cops or in this case forum admins to follow every single post on this large forum. Especially during the holidays. That's why they post the rules and we all agree to follow them using the honor system.

Bob

Considering that everybody plays these melodies from a book, I see no difference in using it in a software. In fact most jazz musicians are making money by playing melodies that do not belong to them. So which is worse, practicing to a software that has the melody within it, or playing a gig and making money with other peoples songs/melodies? I personally think melodies should be an integral part of BIAB. Most people originally purchased band in a box in order to practice over chord changes that were based on songs.

When musicians play in public, the venue (site that hires the musicians) is responsible for paying copyright royalties.

And, you can get caught if you don't pay royalties. A friend was out in the middle of no where and he got caught.

As for the books, my feeling is that they are considered for instructional purposes. The intent is for you to learn and not make money off of whatever instruction book you purchased.

That being said there are a few sites that you can purchase music that you have the rights to play the music wherever you like. musicnotes is one. You pay about $5.00-$6.00 to purchase the song.

That being said, BIAB would be expensive if we paid for each song included in the software.

...Deb

Yes but we know this is not always the case. Think of how many restaurant gigs people have played and house gigs etc. Do you really think all those folks are paying royalties? So when people get really preachy about copyright issues (especially with 50+ year old melodies) I tend to scoff. Also, I know for a fact that restaurants can fly under the radar for a long time without being approached and forced into having a music license and then paying royalties.

Try being out in the woods and have the copyright/royalty police stop by! It does happen. Someone in the crowd must have said something.

Just because other people don't pay it doesn't make it right.

BTW, my church pays 2 different organizations for the right to play any music in the church. Of all places you would think the church was exempted. It isn't. But anyone coming in can play and will be covered.

...Deb

The difference is copyright law. The last time I inquired, the copyright holders wanted up to $2.00 per song with a minimum payment for thousands of songs in advance. Many declined to grant permission at any price. They own the copyright, and the law gives them the right to make or deny any deals.

I disagree with a few laws, but that doesn't give me the legal right to disobey them, and if I get caught breaking the law, my disagreement won't save me.

You can argue what you think is right forever, but it won't change things.

You could run for office and change the laws, but the odds of that are low even if you manage to get elected. Money talks, and the publishers have a lot of money.

So enter the chords, or buy a fake disk, open the book, and practice away. When you get to the club, they are probably paying ASCAP dues, if not, you are responsible to pay the songwriters and publishers yourself (although this rarely happens and rarely enforced).

Insights and incites by Notes

Well, Church should not be exempt of anything. It's a business. So IMO if every other venue/restaurant has to pay then a church should as well.

Though I do agree about churches and paying for their venue as any other venue should. I wonder who is collecting on 12-15 century songs? Sure isn't the people who wrote them.

Yes, some of our songs are pretty old.

...Deb

Do restaurants pay performance rights organizations (PRO) for rights to use music? Yes, most do, and if not they are at risk, and the risk seems to be growing. I've been casually playing standards at restaurant gigs for the past 10 years and it's my observation that over the last few years the PRO's have significantly stepped up enforcement.

One club owner in my neighborhood had a place for about 5 years but had no previous club experience. He simply didn't know. PRO's came at him for such a significant amount for back payment that this was his "last straw" and he shut the place down (it's a grueling business). His lawyer (once he found once competent in this field) told him to negotiate and settle as PRO's are backed by federal law with many decades of case history. Lawyer said if it came to trial the first thing they would do would be move it to a federal court in NYC.

I mentioned this to a friend who plays singles in Austin and he said he's seeing this same sort of thing there.

It's been the law for decades and probably neglected by PRO's but looks to me like they are now focusing on restaurants and clubs trying to replace revenues no longer available at the album/CD point of sales. It's generally not a significant expense if addressed up front and I understand they will negotiate reasonably if a club wants to get into compliance, but make no mistake they can and they will come down hard if resisted.

The songs themselves are long in public domain. One problem is if you are performing them from a published hymnal. That brings its own copyright issue unless you purchased copies for everyone. Arrangers can copyright a published modern arrangement of an old song.

We have a fleet of hymnals. No photocopies.

...Deb