I know people use BIAB for many different purposes.

Is it legal to make a bunch of backing tracks with BIAB (plug in a bunch of chord progressions) and then sell them on the internet as backing tracks (with no mention of BIAB)?

Yes!

Disclaimer: I am not a Lawyer so any legal trouble you get into, you're on your own....

Thanks Dan!

Well I would like a more definitive answer if possible.
I don't have ambitions for doing this.

But I just visited a website that is selling backing tracks and it is very obvious that BIAB was used as the engine to create the tracks. So I wondered...

My 2 cents

Contact PG Support for an answer.

DE

been answered here many times before...what you create with BIAB is yours to do with as you see fit.

From PG Music FAQ

http://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq1.htm#22

Thanks John, but this still doesn't answer the question really.

"The arrangements made by Band-in-a-Box are yours, and your songs may be used freely as long as they don't infringe upon the intellectual property rights of others."

Nor does the above in the FAQ that Noel mentioned.

Using something freely (as in accompaniment live or at home) and selling something are two different things.

I would like to hear if tunes created using BIAB can be *sold* for a profit online (or offline) to customers.

Doing something "as I see fit" may not be legal.

Don't forget to take the question for the FAQ into account as well. It was...

"Are the songs that I create with BIAB copyrighted?"

That means any ORIGINAL song that is generated by PGMusic software can be freely copyrighted, posted and/or sold, i.e. no copyright issues. Any COVER song that is generated by PGMusic software can NOT be posted and/or sold because of copyright issues with others, BMI and song publishers or example.

This is true with all DAWs also. You can not post, give away or sell any copyrighted song unless YOU PAY for that privilege.

I don't know the answer, but I don't think selling backing tracks is the same as using an original song created in BIAB.

Just because another website appears to be doing the same thing doesn't constitute proof of legality.

The only thing I think I know is, you should START by getting the opinion of PG Music before you ever tried to sell anything. Add to that, be especially careful if the backing tracks are for copyrighted songs.

Thanks Matt, good advice.
Along the lines of what I was thinking.

I'll call PG Music soon, just out of curiosity.

Good luck. Post the answer here if it's OK with the company.

By all means ask PG (the second person answering your question suggested that!) I had similar questions in November 2012 and called and had the following conversation with PG. The "Q"s are me and the "A"s are PG!

------
Q. I am allowed to use BIAB songs with RealTracks in my music with no further compensation to anyone regardless of how I sell or distribute my music. is that correct?

A. The arrangements made by Band-in-a-Box and RealBand are yours, and your songs may be used freely as long as they don't infringe upon the intellectual property rights of others.

------
Q. I am allowed to use BIAB songs with RealTracks in my music without providing credits to anyone (PG, the artists who played the RealTracks, etc.) regardless of how I sell or distribute my music. is that correct? Am I allowed to credit PG Music/BIAB on my CD if I want to? If yes, are there any guidelines I should follow?

A. You are not required to credit PG Music or Band-in-a-Box on your CDs, but you can credit PG Music/Band-in-a-Box if you choose to. We don't have any specific guidelines for providing credits, though.

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Q. Am I allowed to credit the artists who played the RealTracks on my CD if I want to?

A. We actually request that you do not credit any RealTracks or MIDI Soloist artists in order to maintain the artist's creative integrity.
------

I'd think it would be the same as recording and selling an album. If it's an original song or Public Domain, you should be able to sell the backing track. If it's a copyrighted song, you can only sell the track if you have permission or pay a royalty.

My advise is to get the opinion of a copyright lawyer.

When I started my BiaB aftermarket business back in 1992, the lawyer was what I thought was a big expense. But since I paid for it, I followed his advice to the letter.

Since then I've been audited twice by BMI and came out smelling like a rose. It was money well spent.

Anybody here can tell you what they believe is definitive advise, but unless they are qualified to give you legal advice, it's not worth the pixels they took up on your screen.

If you get sued, you have nothing to stand on.

However, if you have a paper from your lawyer giving you what he/she thought was proper legal advice, and you get sued, you have a better chance of getting out unscathed.

If you are going to go into business, believe me, the money will be well spent.

Insights and incites by Notes

Like Bob said " get a copyright lawyer"

Also having a copyright/Music lawyer will not keep you from getting sued. It will surely help but nothing is fool proof.

Asking PG Music or any other company for that matter for permission to use something they own will do you no good unless it is in writing by a officer of the corporation. At least in United States law.

PG Music may advise you in good faith that they have no issue with something you want to do but that does not make it legal.

Consider this: Brent Mason recorded sessions for PG Music.

1. Did he sign a release to PG Music for his work?
2. Did he agree to the use of his name?

This list could go on for a very long time.

This is not about good guys or nice companies or making a few bucks making a backing track or a multi million dollar hit record using Band In A Box.

These are legal questions.

GET A LAWYER, and not just any lawyer, get a music business lawyer, and while you are at it get a pile of money to defend your actions in court when you do get sued.


Cheers,


Billy

EDIT: U.S. Code: Title 17 - COPYRIGHTS...13 Chapters...zillions of paragraphs written in legal language that no one even the lawyers fully understand...lol..go google this and read the whole thing and it will be quite clear why you need a LAWYER...lol..Oh and this is just United States law, not addressing international law or law in the country you live in...lol

Thanks.

Just called.

According to the rep it is just as most here have been saying.
PG Music allows you to sell songs that were made with their software (and not owe any money to PG Music), but others can sue you if you have infringed on their copyright (songs).

Billy makes some very good points above.

As I said in my original post, I am not contemplating selling any BIAB produced songs online. I was just interested in knowing the score about the process, as I am certain songs I recently heard online were produced using BIAB and were being sold as backing tracks.

I just thought to myself, "Well this is pretty easy peasy. Just type in the chords, render the songs and sell them for $x.00 a pop."

BG,

Something else to ponder is that chord progressions by themselves are not copyrightable. It is the melody of the song and signature riffs that occur that attract copyright.

So to do a straightforward backing of, say, C F G7 C is not a problem. If the backing contains signature riffs that identify it as the particular backing of a specific song, then copyright has most likely been infringed.

That's how I understand things, at least.

Regards,
Noel

• a recent song: Just A Little After Midnight

Yes that's very true too Noel.

BTW I just listened to your recent song 'Just A Little After Midnight' and I found it very touching and straight from the heart. Congrats on a wonderful recording!

Thanks for having a listen. I appreciate it. Thanks for the comments too. Like so many on these forums, though, I couldn't have done this without BIAB. It's a brilliant program!

Regards,
Noel

No, the lawyer can give you bad advice. The laws are complicated and his/her interpretation could be wrong. But the fact that you went to a lawyer and was given professional advice will go in your favor if you get sued.

Insights and incites by Notes

Also, whether or not any money is charged is not an issue. You can't give away copyrighted material for free. That is just as against the law as selling it.

Insights and incites by Notes

Hope this clarifies it a bit.

You own the license to use BB/RB tracks in your original compositions without any further compensation or credits. End of story.

If you are selling backing tracks to original songs...same deal. As in when you use BB to provide music for someone's song in your studio. Proper "Work for Hire" agreement should be drawn up and signed so that the artist can use the song and sell it freely. You get a lump sum payment for that. I have done this a number of times.

If you are providing cover tune backing tracks and selling them on the net, YOU need to get the proper license to sell them legally. A license would cover a certain number of sales. Keep good records of all sales. You essentially have a business so the licensing costs are part of the cost of being in business. Each track requires a unique licensing agreement. Lots of tracks will become expensive. You pay for each one.

If you are providing a one time custom track of a cover tune, it is the artist who is using the track on a commercially sold CD that would obtain the license. Draw up a "Work for Hire" agreement that spells out who is responsible for the licensing and how much you will get paid for a lump sum and that you have no further financial interest in the song. . I have used this method on a few tunes custom made for artists. This is essentially the same thing as if the artist came in your studio and recorded the cover tune. The studio is not responsible to pay the licensing costs..... the artist is when they release it commercially.

Hope that helps

Thanks GH for the further clarification.

So I have been thinking about this old thread. The problem I see is that it would be hard to come with a viable business model. A good backing track today on the internet goes for about a $1.50. And each one comes with the chord progressions, scale diagrams and improvisation tips. Not to mention the "marketing" costs. Check this out.

https://www.guitarplayback.com/soulful-jam-tracks?mc_cid=01af5dfcc4&mc_eid=69d3ac6fd5

It is very clear that good backing tracks are arranged, mixed and master by good musicians - whether they are use a tool like BIAB or not. I make a lot of backing tracks for my use, and none sound this good. Just sayin.

I've also noticed that backing track companies are mostly not located in the USA.

I asked and got the answer that in the USA you have to pay for a huge number of copies up front, whether you sell them or not. In the EU you pay the royalties for each one you sell, nothing up front.

I don't know if that's true or not, because I didn't consult an expert, but if it is, it's easy to see why most are overseas.

Insights and incites by Notes

That is my understanding. So, yes, trying to set up a legitimate backing track company could really set you back many tens of thousands of dollars with the prospect of minuscule sales.

If true.... I like the EU version better.... pay quarterly or monthly the royalties you ow for the tracks you have sold..... very similar to the way self employed people pay income and sales taxes. File your forms and include a check subject to audits.

That seems to me to be the fairest way to do it.

I suppose there would be people who cheat at it, people will always find a way. I guess they'd have to agree to a surprise audit or something like that. If it's all download, I suppose you could make the log files available.

Back in the 1990s I wanted to sell MIDI backing tracks. So I went to the Harry Fox Agency and directly to publishers that HFA didn't represent.

The red tape was strangling. Some wanted up to $2.50 per song, some wanted 500 unit royalties in advance, some denied, and I gave up. 3 years later some publishers were still sending me their decision. I suppose it's better than that now, it was the early days of MIDI.

I would think the publishers would try to make it easy for someone to pay them royalties, but I'm on the outside looking in, there are unknown unknowns to me.

Insights and incites by Notes.