Another Reason for BIAB to Move to 64-bit

I was just visiting the MakeMusic site to see about information regarding the new release of Finale (which itself will be 64-bit now - previously it was only 32-bit).

As a result of doing so, there are several features that won't make it into (at least the initial) 64-bit release.

Quote:

FROM THE NEXT VERSION OF FINALE PRESS RELEASE

Many of you have asked when the next version of Finale will be released. Today I’m glad to report we plan to make it available by late summer, 2016.

With this release we are fully committed to streamlining and modernizing Finale’s codebase. We do this to improve performance, maintain compatibility with future operating systems, and to set the stage for future improvements. In the process, it has become necessary to remove old code – and corresponding functionality – that slows down this progress. This is something we never do lightly or without significant user feedback and a close eye on usage data. Our ultimate goal is to provide music creators with the best tool possible.

With that in mind, here are the items that won’t be in the next version of Finale:

Movie Window – As I mentioned in this previous post, we’ve replaced the Movie Window with ReWire support, allowing users to take advantage of the superior video support found in programs like Digital Performer, ProTools and Logic.
Mirror Tool and Tempo Tool – Please note that Finale continues to offer multiple ways to control tempo, and that older files with mirrored measures can easily be converted to regular notes and rests.
Plug-ins – Discontinued plug-ins include Band-in-a-Box Auto-Harmonizing, Count Items and Classic Eighth Beams. While technical issues prevented us from updating the auto-harmonizing plug-in to the 64-bit world, we do plan to revisit this functionality in some form in the future.
Compact Disc installer – Because many new computers no longer have CD ROM drives, we’ve switched to a USB stick (in addition to offering a download option).
Scanning – When we offered a preview of our plans to modernize this feature, we sparked a larger discussion about rights. Musicians from all walks of life – from individuals to major publishers – expressed concern over the publishing consequences that could result from significantly improved scanning technology. We take rights very seriously. We explored enhanced restrictions as a possible solution, but ultimately decided that any restriction has the potential for abuse. Instead, we’ve decided to refocus this technology for the future and apply it in such a way that it can be stretched and pushed while simultaneously safeguarding musicians’ rights. While we’re eager to share more on this, the next Finale will not include scanning capabilities. Learn more.
Support for older Mac operating systems – OS X 10.10 or higher will be required.

I could be wrong, but my guess is the reason BIAB auto-harmonizing won't make it in is because the code is 32-bit.

Man !, my heart goes out to you, I mention 64bit once http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=327412
and copped so much negativity that I gave up !
"modernizing Finale’s codebase" !!!!!!
You are a very game Man quoting that here

Good luck and wish you all the best.

pipeline,
i remember your thread.

I remember your take was not primarily 32 vs 64 but how biab would "get less errors and run smoother" were it written in c or c++ than delphi.

As a professional software developer (C, C++, C#, but specifically NOT Delphi) I chimed because I believe that language alone has little bearing on the quality of product.
Bad code can be written well in almost any language.
Programming is easy, good ideas are difficult.

I believe you got flamed (at least by me) because of the statement I reference in quotes above, not 32 vs 64 bit specifically

So you know,
I do believe a 64 bit implementation of biab in the future could be more advantageous because of exactly the reason presented in this thread.
But the language doesn't really matter.
Perhaps someone will create a 64 bit Fortran and we can all maximize our productivity!

"As a professional software developer..the language doesn't really matter." !

It's all over the net, it's the bleeding obvious, it's just here people are in denial and if you seem to be knocking their beloved biab they are down on you like a ton of bricks, not "oh maybe this guy is trying to make it better we won't attack him, we will chime in and encourage"

That's what I'm talking about, where's the encouragement ?

"As I said before I tried to get interest in a new real band in a box C++ that is easily transferred at the same time for Mac OS X as other DAW's have a win and mac version in the same language that are identical and released at the same time, instead of spending one part of the year programming the win version in one language then another part of the year programming the mac version in another language to be released at different times with different features. "

I'm still waiting on that list of DAW's that use Delphi, being just as good n all.

That's why It's great to do beta testing with other DAW's because they fix and add features overnight, not, OH sorry we can't do that because of the bitmaps.

Aspire to Inspire before you Expire.

me thinks thou does protest too much.

no personal attacks- merely trying to remind you of what you said.

As I said, I see the future in 64bit architecture.
I just don't see the language chosen for the implementation will by itself guarantee success, failure, or even "get less errors and run smoother".

get over it.

lets move on.

Originally Posted By: Pipeline

Man !, my heart goes out to you, I mention 64bit once http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=327412
and copped so much negativity that I gave up !
"modernizing Finale’s codebase" !!!!!!
You are a very game Man quoting that here

Good luck and wish you all the best.

Hmmm. Pipeline, you really need to make sure you include the full context of your quote. Your post you referred to above opened with the line:

I was looking @ the programming language of band in a box & real band they use delphi if they changed to c++ would get less errors and run smoother. They seems very outdated - looking on google most audio applications use c++ with better gui's and less bugs.

I don't think there was much objection to a 64 bit version, in fact I think there was absolutely none.

I think the concern was to rewrite BiaB in a different language, which was exactly what you had suggested, and not what you now mentioned above. My comments were accompanied with real-world evidence of the problems caused when one undertakes such an exercise.

I tried to send you a PM on this to explain in detail, but you have blocked senders from sending you PM's.

I was probably one of the ones who said language was not the issue and I still believe it is not! In fact, if the PG team is fluent in Delphi forcing them to change to C/C++/C# or whatever would certainly cost them a year or more of progress! I'd agree if you are building a new application from the ground up in 2016 you probably would not start with Delphi but sometimes you have to work with what you have!

John

I like and respect you and we've never stepped on each other, that I remember (?) but I see you are starting the Xmas pot-stirring early this year

I'm a Make Music and Finale customer. However, the last few "upcoming" announcements, not this one in particular, have been a little "off putting" to me - remains to be seen if I move "up." I have no real need to move up, for me it would just more buying upgrades to buy upgrades (plus you lose the PDF part that I mentioned here before somewhere)

Remember, the whole 64-bit ONLY "re-design" is a Make Music business decision (more labor cost economics - then technically driven) but lot's of other 64 bit DAW and music application makers have 32-bit reach back, Sonar, Reaper, Acoustica, Steinberg, etc.)

I DELETED the rest of that thought

OK I'm convinced, I'm all in, I retract all previous 64 bit resistance (I'm a Borg now) :

Attention Dr. Gannon and PG, I recommend you follow Make Music's lead and make a clean break: go 100% 64-bit and have ZERO 32-bit plug-in, add-in, or other 32-bit "look back" support of ANY kind (can't wait to read posts after PG release's a 64 bit only set of programs, "and good times were had by all" or at least me.

I could then sit back, with my nightly Scotch, and read folks here whining, after the fact, about why BIAB is still only 16 tracks, or why "MIDI music quality" didn't' "go up," or why RT's aren't 2X better, or why BIAB can't do real time sampling and have supporting sample editing with built-in zero crossover sample accurate editing, or why BIAB can't create a song using random loop splicing and do it in tune and in tempo, or other useful "metrics."

Actually PG, in fairness to the 99%, (let me wipe the vomit from my mouth) just make all your code open source. The added benefit would be the real coding experts can get in there and fix it all.

=====

PLEASE PG - "it's just software," "its only a few lines of code," "just use this new development environment to recompile" (it will take care of all case development and debugging - you can go off and get drunk at Canada day, while it works), like the King said "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera"

I PROMISE - NO MORE ON THIS TOPIC BY ME EVER (until 128- bit)

Larry

For the record: John

ONLY the first line was directly directed to you the rest was an "open letter" sort of reply

Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl

John

I like and respect you and we've never stepped on each other, that I remember (?) but I see you are starting the Xmas pot-stirring early this year

....
Larry

So, JFord, how's the weather where you're at? Enjoying a nice beer? It's great here, it was pretty warm earlier in the week but it's perfect now.

Bob

https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/64-bit

I really miss DOS 6.2

I still don't understand the reason why PGMusic must move to C++. There is too much overhead with this language. In my opinion there is too much overhead with Delphi also. If you're good you can use Assembler to write object oriented code. Lots of coding but fewer compiler errors -- there is no compiler.

But I understand the reason to go to 64bit software and the reason not to tackle this task for the time being. I also understand that the pressure to go to 64 will increase.

Many reasons to remain at the status quo are obvious with the current file structure of and the compatibility back to the first files created by Band-in-a-Box.

I'm positive that PGMusic will take that leap as soon as there are some legacy problems solved. Also I suspect that Windows 11 will not support any software that is less than 64-bit. Microsoft is a master in wiping out work time of its users.

Other than that, today rain is repeatedly turned on and off here; the temperature is fair. Later on I will be barbequeing some saddle of lamb, at that time drinking some Flensburger beer, and enjoying it with some French red wine for dinner.

I have been an advocate of 64 bit BiaB for quite awhile. I think it is time to change to 64 bit or be left in the dust.

It is also time to give up on DX and go to VST like the rest of the world has done.

I could give a rodent's rump what language BiaB is written in as long as it works!

Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted By: GHinCH

.....

Other than that, today rain is repeatedly turned on and off here; the temperature is fair. Later on I will be barbequeing some saddle of lamb, at that time drinking some Flensburger beer, and enjoying it with some French red wine for dinner.

We are in a serious drought here with many days over 90F/32C. We need really need rain and quickly, otherwise our farmer's crops are in real danger.

Tonight I will be grilling burgers on my charcoal grill and drinking a couple of Budweiser beers.

GH,

imo,there is no reason to migrate the biab code base from Delphi to C++. it would cost millions and the migration alone will guarantee no improvement.

64bit may be another matter but it appears Delphi has that under control

I doubt seriously we will see a great migration back to Assembler.
That's just my opinion.

Its very hot here.
The beach is 100 yards away and I'll probably go swimming.
The water temp is perfect.
I have one side of a blueline tilefish left in the fridge to broil later.
Aubergine with tomatoes & basil, Arugula salad.
Gin Martini for cocktail and white wine with the fish.

A little C# code to write this afternoon.

Originally Posted By: mrgeeze

Gin Martini for cocktail and white wine with the fish.

A little C# code to write this afternoon.

Drool......
Make sure you syntax check the C# code, especially after those cocktails.

Checking:

What !! ??, was that what I actually wanted the program to do....?

Delphi is fine. That's not the problem.

Originally Posted By: mrgeeze

I doubt seriously we will see a great migration back to Assembler.
That's just my opinion.

Today's computers are too fast and memory is too cheap for going back to Assembler. But: It sure would improve loading time of the program -- if the programmer is worth his/her salt.

Originally Posted By: mrgeeze

I have one side of a blueline tilefish left in the fridge to broil later.
... Arugula salad.

You made me look-up these words: blueline tilefish and arugula (and Honda Element). We don't have the fish and the car, but we do have rucola (Italian) or Rauke (German).

Btw: the lamb was delicious. Meanwhile the sun is nearing sundown. It's about 9 p.m. here, sundown time is 21:19 in my area according to Google.

Enjoy you meals and drinks and company -- whatever may apply.

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley

Delphi is fine. That's not the problem.

Yes, that is exactly right, in a nutshell.

The 64-bit version might hopefully happen, but the rewrite in another language, well, don't worry, that'll never happen.

Quote:

So, JFord, how's the weather where you're at? Enjoying a nice beer? It's great here, it was pretty warm earlier in the week but it's perfect now.

Bob - I wasn't expecting to turn this into a popcorn munching event, and I am actually ready to get a beer to wash down the popcorn. Went to the beach yesterday (it's nice to be able to go anytime, since we're on the Gulf Coast) and really enjoyed the weather and the water.

I would love to see PG products go to 64-bit, and was saddened to see a collaborative effort between companies going away (at least temporarily).

But I'm not here to demand they do it; just pointing out when I notice something of interest and concerned about the ramifications. It's a business decision for PG Music to make and I'm pretty sure it will happen. They successfully navigated from 16-bit to 32-bit, so I'm pretty sure they'll make it to 64-bit. Sooner, however, just means more interoperability between PG Products and other applications that have already made the jump.

I pointed to Finale (which I know for many is a love/hate relationship), but the argument could be that they're not there yet either (but getting there). Going 64-bit definitely opens up the computer to run the applications in the proper memory space provided by a 64-bit operating system.

Okay, back to munching popcorn. Where's that beer?

2014

Originally Posted By: PeterGannon

>>

Bottom line, the day will come when we'll make a 64 bit version, it’s getting closer, but the main reason for it is that's what the customers want (and the future is 64 bit) as opposed to some technical reason that will make things faster. The transition from 16 bit to 32 bit was a totally different story - huge advantages.

How many of you guys here have the Mac version or are you just looking from your Windows perspective only.
If it is re-written it will it will get less errors and run smoother, how far back does the code go, it uses 8.3
In 2025-2050 will it still be in Delphi, will there still be Delphi programmers around ?

When RealBand.app is released on the Mac will it be Delphi ?

The bullet has to be bitten sooner or later.

All the opposition is just from fear of change, don't fear it embrace it

Originally Posted By: Pipeline

In 2025-2050 ... will there still be Delphi programmers around ?

I sure hope so.
(Roll-on 64 bit)

Originally Posted By: mrgeeze

As a professional software developer (C, C++, C#, but specifically NOT Delphi) I chimed because I believe that language alone has little bearing on the quality of product.

I agree that is the case in some situations, but you say it as if that's always true, and that's simply not true. Diff languages are better (or worse) suited for diff things, therefore impacting quality, no matter how good your developers are.

Originally Posted By: Pipeline

here people are in denial and if you seem to be knocking their beloved biab they are down on you like a ton of bricks

heh - yeah I quickly found out there are some, but far from all. Some are so nice it's enough to make you sick.

Quote:

Aspire to Inspire before you Expire.

That little ditty should be retired. To the muck n mire. Or the fire, by the friar.

God bless Dr Seuss

Originally Posted By: GHinCH

If you're good you can use Assembler to write object oriented code.

More like "if you're insane" you'll use Assembly (stupid pedantic nit pick: not "Assembler"). That's like cleaning the floor using a toothbrush.

I can't speak to how much better it might be to re-host, but even I admit if I'm PGmusic, I'm probably kicking that can down the road as long as reasonably possible. In fact, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of Delphi, I see little point in upgrading. It's not like BIAB was written in BASIC.