Hi all,

Here is a fix request for 2017 - RealDrums Shots and Holds trigger a seemingly random single drum hit (a tom, a snare, a hi-hat, a bass drum etc.)

Is this fixable or is there a workaround? Been like this for years afaik.

Thanks!
M

There is a setting to reduce the volume of Shots and Holds in Preferences for RealTracks and RealDrums. But I don't hear what you describe. Is it every instrument? Could you post a link to an audio snippet that demonstrates what you hear?

Thanks Matt,

As an example type 16 choruses of bars 1-4 of Holds and Shots then solo the drums. _POPBRIT.STY. I also recently used a New Orleans Shuffle style which did the same thing.

Can happen on full bars or half bars. Often a song can end on a shot or a hold and it's a bit of a damp squib.

Should be easy to replicate, I think, but it would help to know what rules BIAB applies to shots and Holds i.e when would there be a cymbal hit or when should there be Bass Drum, Tom or Snare etc.

M

I have no idea what a damp squib is, but it sounds unpleasant.

I am sending you a PM with my email address. If you would like, freeze your song and send it to me as an attachment.

Matt

Matt, I believe what he's talking about is the same thing I mentioned in the Rio Blues file I sent you at least concerning a shot. Those punches in Rio Blues all work fine except for the drums. The full drum kit plays through that shot, all that happens is a bit of an accent on the kick drum. A damp squid hit if you will, (I called it a dead fish slap once) when you're expecting a solid full drum kit punch. You know, a cymbal, hi hat, snare and kick hit. BAM!

Bob

Dead fish slap?

Seriously, your explanation helped. I have his files and now I can listen for that.

I just made a simple test file to listen for the shots and holds: couple bars of rhythm A, 2 bars of C., 2 bars C.., 2 bars C..., then repeat for B style. Mute all but the drums and generate/listen several times. Change style, repeat.

Some VERY different approaches to S&H and volumes. I almost always have to change drum volume for a bar, then reset. Would be nice to be able to do that for the second half individually make the first beat down 2, then back on beat 3... Oh well, 2018...

Murray, I'm a bit stumped by what I just saw. In your file, the first one BIAB Drums, I changed it to be E...,C. in the first half of the cell at bar #3. Then ALL the holds were obeyed by all the instruments, including drums that had previously continued to play through the holds in the rest of the song.

I have no answer to the other part of the question, about specifying the drums sound you want.

Ha, it was when the Forte Dxi first came out and the developer was posting on the forum. I had a SRV type of Texas shuffle song and the Forte had exactly that for the snare. A dead fish slap with no attack and rattling snares when what was needed was a solid tight snare hit. He did change it to what the Forte has now. It's not Jamstix but better than it was.

Bob

This is exactly it. Just came back to BIAB after a while and the drums are still the same in the 2018 version after all these years.

This time I was on a different song using _HANGTEN.STY Vintage Surf.

BIAB is great when everything is playing normally at full tilt but as soon as there is a Hold or a Shot the drums fall apart, sound amateurish and render the track pretty unusable.

Are PG listening? Can they get the drums to play a natural unison combination of BD, SD, Tom and Crash etc. as required on the first beat of a Hold or Shot?

Thanks!
M

PS Google 'damp squib':

'Often misheard as "damp squid", the phrase "damp squib" has since come into general use to mean anything that fails to meet expectations. The word "squib" has come to take on a similar meaning even when used alone, as a diminutive comparison to a full explosive.'

Hi Mus,

I think I'm hearing what you're referring to. These RealDrums have more than one shot recorded, so you're not getting the same one on every bar, is that it?

I'm not getting the drums playing through shots or holds like they aren't there, just a variety of shots, some of which you might prefer to others. Is that what you're getting, and do you just want the ability to choose which shot gets generated?

Feel free to freeze the Drums track in a song where you don't think they're working correctly to support@pgmusic.com, we'll be happy to check it out.

Thanks
Kent
PG Music

In RealBand you can regenerate each shot to get what you want or copy and paste.
With Biab 2018 you can use the audio editor to edit the drum track how you like but you would need a bit of enthusiasm.
You can save the drum track to a Performance track then move it to the audio editor, copy a good shot from one section to another, OR open the original realdrum track in another instance of Biab and copy the shots you need from the end of the track to the other Biab with your drum track.

and..
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=459905#Post459905

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=460040#Post460040

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=447121

The text file in the RealDrums folder will show where and what shots you have:

Shot{ Kick (applicable for Brushes & Sticks) },1,289,0,543,1,90
;Shot{ Kick (applicable for Brushes & Sticks) },0,289,0,543,1,90
Shot{ Snare with Sticks },1,290,64,543,1,90
;Shot{ Snare with Sticks },0,290,64,543,1,90
Shot{Flam},1,291,128,434,1,90
;Shot{Flam},0,291,128,434,1,90
;Shot{ HiHat },1,292,84,380,1,90
Shot{ HiHat },0,292,84,380,1,90
;Shot{ HiHat Open },1,292,465,543,1,90
Shot{ HiHat Open },0,292,465,543,1,90
Shot{ HiHat Open 2 },1,294,49,815,1,90
;Shot{ HiHat Open 2 },0,294,49,815,1,90
;Shot{ Tom 1 },1,295,385,1087,1,90
Shot{ Tom 1 },0,295,385,1087,1,90
;Shot{ Tom 2 },1,298,34,1087,1,90
Shot{ Tom 2 },0,298,34,1087,1,90
Shot{ Floor Tom },1,300,162,1087,1,90
;Shot{ Floor Tom },0,300,162,1087,1,90
Shot{ Crash },1,302,291,1904,1,90
;Shot{ Crash },0,302,291,1904,1,90
Shot{ Crash 2 },1,306,275,1904,1,90
Shot{ Crash 2 },0,306,275,1904,1,90
Shot{Ride },1,310,260,2176,1,90
Shot{Ride },0,310,260,2176,1,90
Shot{ Side Stick },1,315,37,543,1,90
;Shot{ Side Stick },0,315,37,543,1,90

Thanks PipeLine, I'll have a play with that :-)

Thanks Kent, sounds like you can hear exactly what I mean but can send some examples if you wish. Actually, it's not that I prefer any of the single kit-piece shots/holds - none of them sound convincing or like what a real drummer would play at all.

Surely, they would play a combination of a closed HH, SD and BD for a shot or perhaps a Crash, SD and BD for a hold. I'm not a drummer but a single HH is not exactly effective where the rest of the music has paused dramatically for dynamic impact!

I'm not sure how you go about programming these automatically but it would be such an improvement in realism.

Many Thanks!
M

You could create your own RealDrum set to play just the shots/holds you need but you would need to use F5 to change drums then F5 again to return to normal drums.

Or you could edit the real drum text file (use ; in front to comment lines out) so it only has one shot to choose from, and even add that shot as a custom made one to the end of the wav/wma file, just backup the original text & wav file and experiment with it.
292 is the bar that the shot is on (with the track starting on -1 then 0 as the 2 bar countin) just drag the real drum track into RealBand set to the same tempo as the drums.

,1,292,84,380,1,90

more info:
http://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_realdrums_stylemaking.htm


Here are some examples of defined shots:

Shot,1,82,-2,455,1,100
Shot,0,83,5,360,1,90
Shot,1,171,240,200,1,80

The six elements that come after the text "shot" are explained here in further detail:


Type of shot
The type of shot needs to be either 0 or 1. If 0 is entered, the shot will be used when chords are entered with two periods (shot) or three periods (hold). If 1 is entered, the shot will be used when chords are entered with two or three carets before them (8th & 16th note pushes).

Bar number in style wave file
Like with patterns, you need to remember that RealDrums styles use -1 based numbering, so you need to subtract 2 from the bar number as you see it in your audio editor. More than one shot can be played in a single bar, and you would use the tick adjust amount to distinguish between the two.

Tick Adjust
The shots do not necessarily have to occur at the bar lines, and the tick adjust can be used to tell Band-in-a-Box® exactly where the shot starts. Simply measure the number of ticks from the downbeat of the bar number entered to the start of the shot, and that is the number that should be entered here. If the shot starts before the bar number that was entered, a negative number should be entered here.

For example, if a shot is recorded at bar 82, but on closer examination it appears that

Shot,1,82,-2,455,1,100

In another example (see example 10 below), a shot is played at the third beat of bar 171. In this case you need to use the tick adjust to indicate that it a full two beats after bar 171. Since one beat is 120 ticks, two beats would be 240 ticks, and it would therefore be entered as such:

Shot,1,171,240,200,1,80

RealDrums Style Example 10

Example 10: Here the shot begins at bar 171 (173-2), at the third beat, or 240 ticks into the bar.

Duration
Unlike patterns, which use numbers of bars for durations, the shots use ticks for durations. So, for example, if a shot lasts for three beats, you would enter 360 (3 beats * 120 ticks per beat).

Here is an example of a shot that lasts for three beats:

Shot,0,83,5,360,1,90

For the best effect, the sound of the shots should decay naturally, and the entire length of the shot including the decay should be entered in the text file. This is especially important when all other instruments are silent, and all you hear is the decaying sound of the drum hit.

Weight
The weight for shots works exactly the same as the weight for patterns, except that there is no need for the use of 0 or 9 weights. This number should be between 1 and 8, with higher numbers representing a greater chance that the shot will be selected each time.

Volume
The volume of the shots is represented by a number between 1 and 127. If 90 is entered, the volume will not be adjusted at all. If a number between 1 and 89 is entered, the volume will be lowered accordingly, and if a number between 91 and 127 is entered, the volume will be raised accordingly. It is generally easiest to test the volume amounts once the style has been completed.

Pipeline, this info is too good to lose. Perhaps make a post in Tips and Tricks?

Thanks guys,

So, for example, can I edit the SurfRockDoubleTwo^01-Ride,Splsh_165_Style.txt file to have several shots play at once
in BIAB or do I have to use RealBand?

Cheers
M

Create a backup copy of SurfRockDoubleTwo^_165_Style.wav(wma)
and SurfRockDoubleTwo^01-Ride,Splsh_165_Style.txt
So set RB to 165bpm then drag SurfRockDoubleTwo^_165_Style.wav in onto the track name,
go to the end of the track and highlight the first hit you want, zoom in to get it accurate making sure you get all the sustain in the selection,
Ctrl+C check Events only,
Select "Snap to Beat"
Set cursor @ bar 251
Ctrl+V check Merge & Events
DeSelect "Snap to Beat"

Copy the next hit you want and repeat the above, if you don't want the hit on a beat don't use Snap

Delete SurfRockDoubleTwo^_165_Style.bt1

Save to wav with original name (drag the new wav back into RB to check it saved correctly)

Remove all the shots in the text file and just add this and save :

So what Tip am I posting ? How To Create Custom Drum Shots, Hold, Pushes ? How To Have The Same Consecutive Drum Shot ?

Thanks, I shall give that a go!

M

OK, that's some great info. I'll have to get used to editing and snappping to bars in RealBand to finish experimenting with this but I can see what is possible.

Bit of a disappointment that Shots and Holds can't be distinguished from one another.

Next step is what if you want a lead in fill to the next bar? Or is this getting too much to ask? :-)

Thanks
M

Put a part maker on the next bar then bring the drums in only on beat 3 of the previous bar C.d then put the next chord where you want the instruments to come back in C or bring the bass in next with the drums C.bd then all C

That's where a custom shot RealDrum comes in handy

SurfRockDoubleTwo^01-Ride,Splsh
SurfRockDoubleTwo^02-Ride,HiHat
SurfRockDoubleTwo^03-Splsh,HHat
SurfRockDoubleTwo^04-Custom Shot,1
SurfRockDoubleTwo^05-Custom Shot,2
SurfRockDoubleTwo^06-Custom Shot,3
SurfRockDoubleTwo^07-Custom Hold,1
SurfRockDoubleTwo^08-Custom Hold,2
SurfRockDoubleTwo^09-Custom Hold,3
SurfRockDoubleTwo^10-Custom Push,1
SurfRockDoubleTwo^11-Custom Push,2
SurfRockDoubleTwo^12-Custom Push,3

or you can make a generic one for all RealDrums

DrumShots^01-Custom Shot,1
DrumShots^02-Custom Shot,2
DrumShots^03-Custom Shot,3
DrumShots^04-Custom Hold,1
DrumShots^05-Custom Hold,2
DrumShots^06-Custom Hold,3
DrumShots^07-Custom Push,1
DrumShots^08-Custom Push,2
DrumShots^09-Custom Push,3
then use F5 to change to the RealDrum Shot you need

Let me know how that works for you, if it works good I'll put it in the Tips n Tracks section as Matt suggested.

One minor correction is that pushes only use one or two carets (not two or three). One caret for an eighth note push and two carets for a sixteenth note push.

Will do, might be a while until I get a chunk of time to do it as I'm quite busy at the moment. Thank you for the pointers :-)

Perhaps PG could be looking at making this automatically easier too?

Cheers
M

Yes I noticed that, PG will have to correct that on the webpage, it maybe in the manual also.

Yes, but not sure how they would do it as each RealDrums has different shots at the end, some have just a few and some a lot of different ones, there's not a standard reference.
RealBand you can highlight the beat/bar/s and regenerate until you get what you need, but BB you have to regenerate the whole track.

Here's another option Custom RealDrum Solos\Hits Mac\Win you can also create an SFZ instrument from the same realdrums and use it in Sforzando VSTi on the midi track you can mute the realdrums on the bar/s with the shots/holds then add the midi notes you need in the piano roll on the bar/s that you need the custom shots/holds, then un-mute the realdrums after the shots/holds.

You can try it first with the PG Library in Sforzando > Drums > Rock Kit.

1. Use F5 to mute the drum track where the shots are.

2. Load Sforzando vst into a midi track.

3. In the Piano Roll view in the same midi track, hold the shift+ctrl and draw in a note, move the note up/down until you get the hit you want (make sure you have ASIO or MME Always On in the Driver Settings), draw in more notes if need be.

4. Use F5 to un-mute the drum track after the shots.

You never know the Rock Kit may be the same kit the surf drums were recorded on in the PG studio. You have some FX in the Sforzando GUI to adjust the sound to match the RealDrums or you can add some FX after Sforzando. You can copy and paste the midi shots if you need them again.

OK thanks, I'll investigate when I have time :-)

I think that PG should do the work you have suggested, instead of us, by merging the various kit sounds in some extra shots and holds at the end of the RealDrums files so that the shots and holds generate sounding like, um, 'real drums'... ;-)

BIAB would use these and the single hits would still be useful for those that have the time, inclination and technical nous to customise.

I think this is a bug that has been around since the beginning of RealDrums and I would class as a definite design fault.

I think you have generously and expertly provided them with some most excellent technical re-design suggestions, Pipeline :-)

M

I have suggested fixes and improvements to give more control of realdrums for years n years n years but there is usually a ten year delay until PG catches on to things.
That's why I'm always having to find work arounds for so many things.

Every year I always ask how many GB of extra RealTracks will be sold in the yearly update without the basics being fixed.

Grateful that you at least provide these detailed workarounds, so well documented :-)

M

This will give you just a few of the possible options.
Put these folders in your X:\bb\Drums\SurfRockDoubleTwo^

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yb7ficwz8nj1wj9/SurfRockDoubleTwo%5E01-Extra.zip?dl=1

Create a backup 1st then paste this over all the C:\bb\Drums\SurfRockDoubleTwo^ text
in X:\bb\Data\PGALLDrumFolderNames.txt (2018)
X:\bb\PGALLDrumFolderNames.txt (2017)


In the RealDrum Picker > Rebuild > then choose Shot=Kick or Shot=Snare or Shot=Tom1
you can create many different ones with one type for a shot/hold and another for a push. The above demos just uses the same for push/shot/hold.
More can be added to 01 02 03
But to have combined hits the wav file will need to be edited.

Memos can be added to RDPGMemos.txt and info to DrumGrooveNames.txt

Must be a half rotten octopus then ..

For PipeLine: Done, Mr PipeLine, hats off & thanks, it works; behold, you're my man!
But to find time to get a grip on this editing work's hows and wheres is a bit beyond my capabilities.

General PS: This is maybe why PG's BIAB is such a success, just like Windows; they leave a lot of client addressable open ends & unfinished business to fix. So every one jumps in to help out, and IMO with PG stuff quite acceptable, as their pricing is really fair. Maybe here's some business for f.i. you or Bob Norton? - F

Just open up the text file inside the different shot folders then scroll to the bottom and you will see all shots are removed but the one being used.
The first one still has all the shots at the end of the text file so using that drum you will get random shots.
The one with 0 in front is used for shots n holds C.. C...
the one with 1 in front is used for the pushes ^C ^^C

So you can just make a copy of the first folder and rename it to the name of the shot and also rename the text file inside to the same name prefix.
Then just go down to the bottom of the text file and delete the shots you don't want, if the shot has a ; in front remove it to use it.
You can have the same shot for shots/holds and pushes or different just choose the 2 you want to use, one with 0 in front(shot/hold) and one with 1 in front(push).

I have the same problem pretty much universally with holds and shots in all real styles. (Several friends do as well)
It seems like the “natural decay” and natural sounding holds in general should be the programs default and something more intrinsic is causing this syndrome- in fact one of the PG music folks uploaded some holds in an example using the same style I was- with a great sounding result out of the box. His all sounded like they should without a bunch of tweaking, weighting or re-building the style. Bass and drums seem to be the big issue. Maybe some master setting about ticks or somethin?
It’s hard to imagine that this isn’t a FAQ or a have been dealt with, as ubiquitous as it seems to be for some of us. There must be an easy answer.
It’s been maddening for years trying to find it for me though. (Otherwise I love the program so much!)

Had you substituted (replaced) any tracks (particularly drums) for those originally in the style? I just discovered that was causing my ‘damp squibs’.