I’m searching for a convincing and reliable method to get vocal harmony with BIAB during live performances. My tunes cover the spectrum from jazz, country, pop, Broadway, and whatever. I found some forum discussion on this issue several years back and the conclusions seemed iffy and technical at that time----most of which, I didn’t understand. Has this issue improved with the 2017 upgrade? In the “hardware” section, PG Music recommends the use of the TC Helicon products. I’m wondering if anyone is using such gear with BIAB and how well does it work in live settings? I’m not sure how to connect such a vocal harmony box to the laptop. Furthermore, the midi output channel that’s mentioned------how well does it work? Does every chord in the song arrangement get transmitted accurately? Would jazz chords be sent and work just as well as basic triads? Do these vocal harmony units pick up moving, passing chords? I wish there was a good tutorial on this matter, showing step by step how to set up a unit, such as the Voice Live 3 with BIAB. I’d appreciate any comments from those with experience with these outboard units and their use with BIAB.
I use VoiceLive 2 when I stream using BIAB 2017 live. I have no issues but it took me months to work out how to integrate it. I use midi commands from BIAB on the soloist track. I have a VoiceLive 3 Extreme, but I've yet to get round to setting it up. It takes a lot of fiddling to get a harmonizer to sound real - if it ever does. Having said that, I love what it does for me. Also, they are so much more than just a harmonizer. It is my vocal sound engineer, de essing, compressing (all intelligently) Autotune, delay, reverb, doubling, fx effects etc, choirs, harmony, acoustic guitar effects and that's the VoiceLive 2. The voiceLive 3 Extreme is a whole different ball game, automated effects on your vocals, guitar whilst playing your wave file backing tracks inside it and and recording your show. Imagine you, your mic, guitar/keyboard and Voicelive 3 straight into a PA. No need for BIAB, a computer or anything else. Looping and electric guitar multi effects also with automation. These are big beasts with incredible power, but if you think BIAB is a steep learning curve......
I use VoiceLive 2 when I stream using BIAB 2017 live. I have no issues but it took me months to work out how to integrate it. I use midi commands from BIAB on the soloist track. I have a VoiceLive 3 Extreme, but I've yet to get round to setting it up. It takes a lot of fiddling to get a harmonizer to sound real - if it ever does. Having said that, I love what it does for me. Also, they are so much more than just a harmonizer. It is my vocal sound engineer, de essing, compressing (all intelligently) Autotune, delay, reverb, doubling, fx effects etc, choirs, harmony, acoustic guitar effects and that's the VoiceLive 2. The voiceLive 3 Extreme is a whole different ball game, automated effects on your vocals, guitar whilst playing your wave file backing tracks inside it and and recording your show. Imagine you, your mic, guitar/keyboard and Voicelive 3 straight into a PA. No need for BIAB, a computer or anything else. Looping and electric guitar multi effects also with automation. These are big beasts with incredible power, but if you think BIAB is a steep learning curve......
Lambada is right on with his comments. I have Voice Live Touch and have used it with BIAB. Based on my experience I could not say anything better than has been said here. The VLT is older and smaller than the VoiceLive 2 or the Voice Live 3 (also a lot cheaper), but it too is a "beast". Lots of features that need to be tamed. I made a video about how to install and work with this in BIAB. If you cannot find it here in the forum I will look for it and update the link.
Otherwise, two things: 1) I was never able to really integrate it into my live BIAB show. Too complex and not enough time to master it to the level necessary. Although, it sure was fun working with it at least to the level I did. 2) It helps greatly if you are a good singer to begin with.
I agree to an extent about it being cheezy, but I believe if you put the same kind of time into it as you do into say mastering or mixing tracks you can get some amazing harmonies. Remember, harmonies are just a small part of what they do and should only come on for short periods. TC Helicon stuff also provides a built in sound engineer working away in the background. Imagine your trying to sing a modern song. Voicelive can provide Hardtune, Tempo matched Delays, Doubling Harmonies and Reverbs all for as little as one bar. Pretty cool.
I agree, if you have a dodgy / untrained voice, nothing can help except perhaps Autotune or a singing teacher! Luckily, most punters don't seem to be able to tell a good from a bad voice but even a good voice can sound grim without treatment live or in the studio.
Somewhere there is a video (poor quality) of me showing how I integrate VoiceLive 2 for streaming/live. It is time consuming and there is a steep learning curve learning to use a harmonizer well. Not something I can do live. It needs to be automated.
I'm happy to do another, better quality video if wanted, but it's a bit of a niche interest for BIAB forum members.
I'm happy to do another, better quality video if wanted, but it's a bit of a niche interest for BIAB forum members.
There have been a couple of us working the BIAB\TCHelicon combo over the years. Even though my VLT is in the closet, I am only looking for an excuse to bring it out again. Regarding setup in BIAB this might give you a clue.
Thanks so much Dan for the video. I've not seen that one before, and I've never seriously considered controlling my harmonies from Voicelive 2 from BIAB rather than from my guitar playing. However, it would make a lot of sense, because quite often I play lead or don't want to crowd out BIAB with my rhythm guitar playing. I can still leave my automation in BIAB as I also drive the Nova guitar effects from BIAB. It might also work better live. Ironically, I have Ian's VoiceLive 2 editor and will be upgrading to the 3x one. It's a fabulous piece of software and would be great live as it's very easy to use. It's also great for making changes to the default settings on some patches, which frankly, often need them.
Yes, thanks for all the comments and the video, which helps understand a complicated (to me) process. I was thinking about getting the Voice Live 3 Extreme, or waiting until the next upgrade. I suppose I could use it with my midi keyboard and DAW in home recording. However, live use with BIAB is my objective. I’ve got the TC Helicon Harmony Singer----the small blue pedal; however, I don’t like being tied to the guitar chords to drive the harmonies, since I often play fills, turnarounds, etc. (while singing) and may not be sitting on the needed chord at the moment. That’s why I’m looking for BIAB to supply the chord changes. This whole topic seems obscure for singers with BIAB. Maybe PG Music should give it some attention.
Whatever product you are using (TC Helicon or other), there are some limitations you must bear in mind.
1) When using «Ouput Chords» in BB most units can only «understand» 4-note chords. So C7b5 is OK, but C13 not.
2) The other voices always move in the direction as your own voice. So either ascending or decending, but no counter movement.
3) When your voice moves up (or down) a half note, the other voices will remain unchanged, unless you enter passing harmonies. E.g. If you sing E, F, G in the key of C and the chord is e.g. Cmaj7. The other voices will remain the same, when you move from E to F, unless you enter e.g. Dm7 as your chord.
In the past I have used this setup to try to sing like The Four Freshmen, all by myself, and keeping in mind all the limitations I have mentioned above, I had to addept my chordsheet a lot, but the end results sounded great.
Continued follow-up, with observations: 1. I’ll try the input of Harmony Singer with BIAB, even tho’ it’s only a ¼” mono analog input. 2. Does anyone know about the Voice Live 3 and the “Extreme”----can they really determine the chord changes when using the auxiliary input, with a previously mixed audio track (or BIAB song) and provide the correct harmony? Some of the videos I’ve seen seem to suggest that. I thought that could only be done via midi. 3. Following Tonnie’s comments on limitations-----Is the technology static at this point, or is there room for improvement for BIAB to provide an output (of some kind) that would allow vocal harmony for every nuance of the chords on the song chord sheet? Hence, Four Freshmen-type harmonies, if that’s what someone wanted to do? In which case, that should really show the potential of units like the Voice Live 3.
I haven't tried it on the 3 or 3 Ext, but ever since the Voicelive 2, they have been offering audio output as a harmonizing option. I don't think you would have a problem. The Extreme is expensive, but it provides a looper, guitar effects, playback of audio files with automation of effects and recording via USB. The only negative I read was that it was a bit fragile. Again, mine is still in the box, so I can't comment on anything yet. Be careful you don't buy the fancy vocal/guitar cable (which i did) as it comes in the package. I waited and waited for the 4, but who knows when.... I'd be tempted to go along to a friendly shop and try it out or contact TC Helicon.
Hi Dan. Two quick questions. Do you have a copy of the Midi Re Direct VST as Paul Warrens's site is defunct and Google brings up nothing? I couldn't get the Voicelive 2 Editor to function without it as I have to turn off USB Control on the Voicelive 2, which kills the link between the chord output in BIAB and my Voicelive 2.
I don't understand why I need the VST if I'm running a real midi cable from my Audio Interface to the Voicelive 2 and a USB cable from the Voicelive 2 to my PC. I've got patch commands and cc commands on my melody track in BIAB on Channel 4 and the harmonies coming through on the Through Channel, Channel 5. It works fine but no editor. I'm a bit baffled.
I not sure if midi redirector is helping me. Basically, if I want to use the Voicelive 2 editor I have to turn USB control on. If I turn it on, none of my Voicelive 2 midi commands work in BIAB. I have them on the Melody track. My nova commands are on the Soloist track. Both entered to specific bars in Step Edit mode. However I can switch patches directly on the Voicelive 2 using the editor. Maybe that's one advantage of the redirector? I didn't try it before I installed the redirector, so I'm not sure if it is the actual redirector that is allowing me to do that.
It is cool with USB on as you can edit and change patches from the editor which is very straightforward as it's a great piece of software, but I don't think I would use it live and I need the midi automation in BIAB more.
The harmonies work great and I'm now free to use the guitar for whatever I want (eg guitar synth or guitar solos). No need to play chords to get harmonies as it's now all done by BIAB chords. Very cool. A big fortuitous step forward. Thanks.
If I've missed something or misunderstood the redirector, please let me know. I find this aspect of midi a bit of a mystery in BIAB and largely undocumented. I'd love to be able to use the editor at the same time, but it's seems it is not to be.
Sounds like you are making progress. Like we discussed there are not a lot of folks going down this road with BIAB and the TC product. I am traveling these days so not at my music studio. But I did make a pretty serious effort with all this several years ago. So I can share with you how my story ended.
Working with BIAB and TC VLT2 was fun and a learning experience, but in the end I moved it all to Reaper when I wanted to take the show live. Just a lot more flexibility in a full fledged DAW.
Reaper and BIAB are a perfect combination. Both run simultaneously on my DAW (ASIO to Reaper and MME to BIAB).
My workflow almost always starts in BIAB which provides the source of the inspiration and the tools to lay out the song structure. All composition is done in BIAB as well as much of the arrangement of the backing tracks.
Then everything is moved to Reaper (each individual track) where my recording is all performed. Reaper is a rock solid DAW which can handle all the VSTi, midi input, guitar and vocal recording without a hickup. It will also permit flexible routing of any device such as the VLT2 and midi keyboard.
Thanks for all the info RE BIAB and TC. I have the new TC VL3X and am trying to integrate it into my setup. So all this helps a lot. I was not able to download the redirector. Could I get a copy from you.
Interesting, heard some demos of the TC VL3X, got a little interested, for studio use especially. Seems a great weapon for live performances, but reading the specs, 16bit 48kHz max only (as IMO 24bit already really makes a substantial difference), the specific floorboard design, and maybe too limited harmony control (??) via midi i think it would be not suitable for me . Pity the cheaper TC stuff have very limited external control functions, as their harmony functions sound good. F
I'm also running Reaper and BIAB. Very stable setup. Are you doing any recording into Reaper with the TC? As I said I have a new VL3X, and would be interested in knowing your particular hookup info between the TC and Reaper. Thanks for any advice you might wish to share.
I'm also running Reaper and BIAB. Very stable setup. Are you doing any recording into Reaper with the TC? As I said I have a new VL3X, and would be interested in knowing your particular hookup info between the TC and Reaper. Thanks for any advice you might wish to share.
Rob
Rob, I touched on my outcome with BIAB earlier in the thread.
1) I was never able to really integrate it into my live BIAB show. Too complex and not enough time to master it to the level necessary.
In the end I did little work with the TC-VLT2 in BIAB but quickly moved to Reaper with it. Here is what I found.
For Studio Work I never got it to work as I wanted - I was not successful in routing-in and recording a dry signal and then applying the VLT2 effects to that and bouncing the track. The routing of the VLT2 was just not flexible enough (although it claimed to be), it just didn't work for me.
Direct recording of the wet-effects was not problem into Reaper. And routing of a midi signal to control the harmonies was doable with Reaper. But what I wanted, and have never found, is a full VST app which you can apply effects on a dry vocal track.
Reaper still runs on my machine, but the VLT2 is in the closet. I am looking for a project to pull it out again. so maybe I will have an update for you in the near future.
I spent the last two days woodshedding with the TC Helicon VL3X and was able to make some great progress in getting a recording setup going. As has been mentioned in this thread this piece of equipment is a real beast with more capability than anyone would ever need. The 200+ page reference manual covers all the gritty details. It's an amazing machine. I don't know what the VL2 is capable of but the VL3X seems to cover all the bases. BTW, this is not my first rodeo with TC Helicon harmonizers as I still own a TCH VoicePrism rackmount harmonizer that I got back in 2000. Still works great but no match for the VL3X.
So here's the scoop on recording:
Recording to a DAW with the VL3X is a snap. Just connect your computer to the VL3X with a USB cable, select the VL3X as your audio input/output device in your DAW and you're ready to rock.
You get two channels of output to the VL3X and two channels back to the DAW. There are three recording MODES with this setup that should handle anything you want to do:
1. The STEREO mode sends your DAW output into the VL3X where the NATURAL PLAY feature reads the key perfectly and adds the correct harmonies to your vocal. The STEREO mode ADDS your DAW output to your VOCAL as well so if that isn't what you wanted there are two other MODES.
2. The DAW TRACKING mode is the same as the STEREO mode except the DAW audio is NOT added to your vocal and you can record a vocal only track with or without the VL3X effects.
3. And lastly, the DAW INSERT mode allows you to send a dry track (vocal or instrument) from your DAW to the VL3X for processing and subsequent return to your DAW for recording on a new track.
Other than the USB cable the only other input I needed into the VL3X was the mic. Pretty simple.
As for live performance, the VL3X can load and play backing tracks (created by BIAB for example)from it's USB port via a thumbdrive (or a properly formatted external hard disk). It can sequence and play the backing tracks and can be programmed to add whatever effects/processing you want to each individual backing track along with your vocal/guitar performance. I have NOT played with this feature yet but it seems pretty straightforward. Just dump all your BIAB files to MP3s on a thumbdrive and create a set list in the VL3X. BTW, the VL3X can also record your performances to the thumbdrive as well.
To learn more about these subjects I suggest downloading the VL3Z reference manual from the TC Helicon website and read the section on USB AUDIO for starters.
I am heading to the closet to pull out the old VLT2. I think it is a bit more limited than that fancy new unit, but you peeked my interest. thanks for update.
Hello Rob. Thanks for the info on your VL3X, by now i'm getting a little curious about the stuff you record with it ... F
Hi Fiddler...
I'll be using the VL3X exclusively in our studio and not in a live situation, although it seems perfect for that too. So we'll be using it on creating covers, original songs etc. utilizing BIAB for the most part to create our backing tracks. We then transfer the BIAB tracks to our DAW for further processing, additional vocals, guitar, and mixing/mastering. The VL3X will save us tons of time on creating harmonies for demos and the like. Since we just got this thing we haven't completed any projects with it but we have tried it on one new original song project, at least partially. Here's a sample:
This is nowhere near completed and the harmonies only occur in the chorus near the end. But you get the idea. Sounds pretty good to me. Imagine if we really tried.
How accurate are the VL3X harmonies generated from a mixed BIAB track played from a thumb drive? Does it really work well that way? I thought it produced vocal harmonies only via midi or a guitar input signal. This discussion has peeked my interest, if it will provide harmonies from an audio track. That opens a lot of doors.
Rob, thanks; ... as for vocal studio work etc i am and was always messing around with all sorts of VST stuff, and even the newer vocaloids recently. Varying results, but it never got me near the real thang with some hired ladies & gents, but it's always too tempting as you can change stuff melodically, even lyrics, until the very end of some project. Saves costs too.
IMO 16bits digital (Audiophile and the VL3X?) always gets too a point when too many digital tracks get together in a mix, the lot starts sounding like a wild river after a rainstorm upstream; you really need good DA (and AD) converters and word clock to reduce muddiness and keep details clear. Although in the old days a 16bit Akai DR8 multi-tracker could sound surprisingly good linked to an external clock signal.
Now who here is going to experiment with the VL3X producing out some nice a Capella barbershop vocal work, and/or transgender vocals? PS your song, sound, music & singing is great ... F
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
[quote=lambada]
Thanks MusicStudent, a bit 50+ cheesy result LoL? Guess good enough when used live though.
I think the VL3X (and the VL3) have their uses. I suppose the danger is to become enamored of the technology and try to use it on everything because it sounds so good. This thing does a LOT of cool stuff. You just have to check out YouTube to hear a small part of it's capabilities.
I'd prefer real voices to computer generated harmonies IF I have folks available that want to spend the time to lay down real harmony parts. And in fact I usually record my own parts when time is not an issue. But for a songwriter who wants to create something where harmonies are a big part of the creation the VL3X can help you get the effect you're looking for quickly. Not unlike using BIAB to create a new song and get a feel for how it would sound fully produced.
As for the technical quality, even 16 bit stuff works for me for this kind of work. I use BIAB EP rather than Audiophile and I've never been unhappy with it. In fact the last 10 albums I produced had quiet a few BIAB songs on them.
Note that the VL3X manual provides the following DA/AD conversion specs as:
"D to A Conversion 24 Bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 115 dB SNR A-weighted"
"A to D Conversion 24 Bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 110 dB SNR A-weighted"
While the quality of and accuracy of the harmonies are as good as I've ever heard they are still computer generated and if used "as is" can sound a bit mechanical. But it's not so apparent that I'd decline to use it. Again you have to decide if the final product you're creating is worth the additional effort and cost of using real harmonies. There are a number of professional groups using the VL Rack in their performances and I imagine in their recording work.
The old TC VoicePrism required a midi guide track for creating vocal harmonies. Whereas the VL3Z accurately reads audio input to create tracks, whether its a guitar, keyboard, or a full audio file. Here's a clip from our initial woodshedding experiments with the VL3X with just my guitar. Don't laugh now, it's what it is. But the harmonies follow the guitar perfectly; the only limitation to accurate harmony creation is my dodgy vocal performance. Again this is one-take stuff and totally unedited:
If this is how I can sound doing a one-take performance I'd have no qualms about taking the VL3X to the stage. Also, just sitting down with a guitar and playing around with the VL3X you get all kinds of ideas for a song or lyric, very much like you do with BIAB. It's inspirational. Not much else can do that these days. What a great recording recording partner the VL3X is when used with BIAB. Some cool stuff there, boy!
Thanks for sharing the vocal demos. Sounds darn good - No shame in your game! You have this thing figured out pretty well. I think the TCHelicon products do vocal harmonies better than any other hardware unit out there (no software solution compares). My biggest problem with the VL3X is the cost otherwise I would tradeup the VLT2 to get the better routing capabilities. These are fun units.
Note that the VL3X manual provides the following DA/AD conversion specs as: "D to A Conversion 24 Bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 115 dB SNR A-weighted" "A to D Conversion 24 Bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 110 dB SNR A-weighted"
Ah, that makes more sense, and especially when you use it as computer DAW interface too .... i used a TC Finalizer 96kHz from when this model came out for mastering about 12 years ago .... only since a year or two i stopped this and use mainly some VST stuff, basically out of laziness since keeping all within the computer saves time than realtime mastering unto a separate hard disk recorder, and reloading suff into the PC. But the Finalizer was and still is a great tool. Even good at reducing the muddiness of badly done 2 track masters. I recently sold it, but with regrets ... F
Yea...it's a pretty pricey item. However, I don't have a bass boat or a sportscar or a Harley anymore. So I feel like I can justify the cost considering how much time I devote to my music. Besides, I got mine just before the price went up recently so I saved about $150 off the current price. But frankly I would have bought it anyway. I did a LOT of research on it before I sprung. And I spend a few hundred a year on BIAB so just feeding my musical addiction.
Lacks guitar effects which are usually better anyway from other devices according some guitarists, but otherwise a handy tool in a studio.
The VL3x however seem to have far more features, most meant for standalone stage work as f.i. looping, but the TC demos i saw were only based on simple looping: adding stuff to a simple starter, something i am less interested in LoL.
I wonder if these overdubs are built in to separate exportable wavs, or just overdubs always melted down in to one mixdown file. Can one combine different recorded loops into a song construction and export them as separate WAV files or tracks?.
I remember buying an Akai MPC5000 once in an attempt to find a handy quick and dirty hardware tool for songwriting, but found it too complex regarding workflow and the slightly "limited" sound quality with 16bit AD/DA converters, so i sold it ...
The VL3X seems a success however for TC as they're sold by the bucket load ... F
The VL Rack is what I considered buying first, but from what I can tell it has the old VL2 technology. I doubt it will be long before it's upgraded to the new features.
Apparently TC is finding it more efficient to combine guitar and vocal capabilities into one product. I have a TC G-force guitar effects rackmount unit that has some great sounds. I wouldn't expect TC to incorporate anything less than great quality effects into products like the VL3(X). Historically, it's just not how they roll.
Yea I think TCH hit the motherlode with the VL3X. I have friends calling for setup help whom I wouldn't think would even know about this thing. Since TC doesn't allow discounting apparently, and I've checked prices all over, I'd recommend to anyone making the purchase that they buy it from PG Music. Just another way to support the company we all like so much.
As for looping I don't see where I'd use it that much, but then I haven't delved into that area of the VL3X, yet. A lot of popular music is created with loops, John Mayer comes to mind. Guess we'll have to wait and see on that feature.
I think the USB/thumbdrive BACKING TRACK feature makes the VL3X a great tool for songwriting or just practicing. And if you come up with a great idea you can record it back to the thumbdrive. All you need is your instrument, a vocal mic, the VL3X, a headset and a thumbdrive. No computer required; just throw a bunch of your BIAB created MP3s on the thumbdrive and practice or create til you can't see straight.
Well enough chatter; we're burning daylight. I'm heading to the studio to play with the VL3X and the new Xtra Styles PAK 3 for Band-in-a-Box. There are some very cool styles in there I can't wait to use for a new song or two...or three!
I hate to be a pest on this issue after all this discussion; but it’s still not clear to me what the VL3X is capable of doing. I’m sure it will track a guitar or midi signal very well to generate vocal harmony. However, before investing that kind of money, here’s what I’d like to know about the audio input: Let’s say you take a fully mixed BIAB track as a wav file and plug it in on a thumb drive. Say, the song is a standard tune, like Misty in Eb. You plug in a mic, make the proper adjustments, start play on the track, and begin to sing (no guitar or anything else plugged in, in this example). Will the VL3X generate appropriate vocal harmonies from the audio track alone, while singing, with no other instrument providing the chords? If it will do that accurately without glitches, then, that’s more than amazing and will get my attention for sure. If anyone has used the VL3X exclusively with the audio input, I’d love to hear about it.
I'd say the answer to your question is a definite YES. While I haven't played with the thumbdrive feature yet, the clip I posted above "Not Everyday Was Sad" was created by playing a full audio mix (created with BIAB) directly from Reaper into the VL3X using the "DAW TRACKING" mode and singing along to create the harmonies. The VL3X recognized the key and created the correct harmonies which were then sent back to Reaper for recording on a new track. The only adjustment to the new recorded track is to line it up properly with the other tracks since there's about a 70 millisecond delay created during the roundtrip of your vocal when recording. Easy stuff.
The only difference between what I did and your question is the SOURCE of the audio file i.e the thumbdrive. However I think with regard to the thumbdrive, the source audio file has to be MP3 or WAV (16bit/48khz). The VL3X will convert other resolutions which takes time. If you're only using the backing track to sing along with your BIAB created tracks an MP3 you will save space and should be sufficient quality for the purpose. Check the VL3X manual link in this thread to learn more about the BACKING TRACK feature which includes use of the thumbdrive as the audio source. In my experience the VL3X will recognize a full mix audio file and create the proper harmonies no matter the source of the "guide audio".
Cost is a very real consideration for this piece of gear. I still have another three weeks to evaluate it before I have to make the decision to keep or return it. A lot of vendors offer that option. However, after only a few days with it I'm about 90% sure I'll keep it. I know it's hard to believe it will do what it claims, but it does. I was skeptical too. Pretty amazing stuff. But not anymore so than BIABs ability to take a Real Track production and change the key and the tempo and still sound great. "What'll they think of next?!" (common old-person rant)
Rob: Thanks for the detailed explanation. That clears up several issues. I may make the plunge, or wait out until the next upgrade to see what might be added. I’m using the Harmony Singer pedal now; but, have not been pleased with the clean, precise tracking needed from the guitar to make it work satisfactorily. Maybe it’s the player (me) at fault. Maybe the guitar tracking ability of the VL3X is better than that in the small, blue pedal. Don’t know. I’d really like a hands-free ability to concentrate on singing and lead work and not have to worry about playing each chord to trigger the harmonies. That’s why I inquired about whether the audio track could trigger the harmonies. Apparently, it will work like that. Amazing.
-- Cost is a very real consideration for this piece of gear. I still have another three weeks to evaluate it before I have to make the decision to keep or return it. A lot of vendors offer that option. However, after only a few days with it I'm about 90% sure I'll keep it. I know it's hard to believe it will do what it claims, but it does. I was skeptical too. -- "What'll they think of next?!" (common old-person rant) --
Been thinking, especially because of your enthusiasm, about getting the VL3x for studio work. Tried other stuff like Antares Harmony engine VST, costs over 200 bucks if you buy it LoL. Antares, well if one is happy with a kind of Mickey Mouse voice singing along the latter seems OK.
But indeed for the costs the VL3x is a bit steep. My experience so far with quite expensive gear that is a selling success prices might drop quite a bit even within a year or so, so investing is only wise if one can make good use of it straight away. Seems a bit cheaper BTW here in Europe, around 800 to 850 Euros. But i'd like to get my hands one one, but probably only would use it to create a specific harmony, and experiment with transgender (female) vocals.
BTW I bought Vocaloid 4 a while back, but it's far to complicated regarding phonetics editing, if you want to work fast, and the software really hicks and slows down your DAW if you want to connect it via rewire or use the specific Cubase related VST plugin.
But some get amazing results, by a lot of work experimenting with controlling it via phonetics and symbols plus pitch and filter controllers not even found in the manual. Probably using them from Japanese or Chinese versions. Example of a Vocaloid 2 done by a real expert (IMO the older voice database "Sweet Ann" was imported into the Vocaloid 3 standalone editor):
As for the VL Rack you might be right; an updated version might be at hand, prices are about the same for the VL3x still, but prices for the VL Rack are sometimes about 30% lower if you shop around.
There were some questions at the beginning of this thread about using BIAB with the TC Helicon for live performances. Now that I've had a few days with the TC VL3X I was able to investigate the possibilities. Here are the results:
I loaded a BIAB song into the program and set the audio drivers to the VL3X. When I played the song in BIAB it was sent directly to the VL3X and I sang the vocals. The VL3X added the harmonies based on the audio from BIAB (NOT MIDI) I used the TWO HIGH vocal preset in the VL3X to get the harmonies. Had I been performing live I would have run the stereo outputs to the PA system. For purposes of this post I just output the tracks to Reaper to create the following file:
This test convinces me that the VL3X could indeed be used with BIAB in a live performance situation. It reads the key and creates some nice harmonies. Excuse my vocal, just a one-take effort to check the BIAB to VL3X setup. Fun stuff.
Looks like it's really working well for you. The harmonies sound nice. Makes me want to get back to using my Boss VE20 that I need to master before I think of upgrading to a VL3X.
Thanks, Rob, for posting all of those short demos. That’s really impressive how it reads the chord changes. I’m a little dense and want to make sure how you set things up. When you said, “I loaded a BIAB song into the program and set the audio drivers to the VL3X”. Did that mean that you played a BIAB song directly from the computer via the audio outputs (left/right stereo) into the appropriate input(s) on the VL3X? Is that the same thing as “set the audio drivers”? In any event, the demo is impressive.
Thanks, Rob, for posting all of those short demos. That’s really impressive how it reads the chord changes. I’m a little dense and want to make sure how you set things up. When you said, “I loaded a BIAB song into the program and set the audio drivers to the VL3X”. Did that mean that you played a BIAB song directly from the computer via the audio outputs (left/right stereo) into the appropriate input(s) on the VL3X? Is that the same thing as “set the audio drivers”? In any event, the demo is impressive.
Yes, I played a BIAB song directly from the computer via the audio outputs (left/right stereo) into the appropriate input(s) on the VL3X. But before I did that I went into BIAB Preferences, and set the audio drivers to VL3X input and output. I did that because the physical hookup I used was a USB cable from the VL3X to my computer. If I'd been playing live I would have sent the outputs of the VL3X to my PA instead. But in this case I wanted to record the VL3X output instead so I could upload it here.
I just hit play and sang to the BIAB song. The VL3X read the key from the BIAB audio and created the proper harmonies to go with my vocal.
There are several ways to route BIAB to the VL3X. Instead of the USB I could have connected a cable from my computer headphone output into the AUX input of the VL3X. That would eliminate having to change the input and output drivers in the BIAB preferences. The VL3X would still have read the key and created the harmonies. There seem to be a variety of possible connections that accomplish the same task. Just depends what you want to do with the combined music, vocals, and harmony output The VL3X has a ton of I/O possibilities and they all work nicely. I hope all this isn't confusing; it's just that the VL3X is very versatile.
One thing you can't do with BIAB and the VL3X is to record your vocals back to BIAB via the Audio Record button. The reason is that the VL3X creates about a 70 millisecond latency. So the vocal track and the BIAB tracks would not line up properly. Recording with BIAB and the VL3X is a different procedure all together. But I wrote this post to describe how you could use BIAB and the VL3X in a live performance situation.
Rob: That’s the best explanation I’ve seen on this whole process. I get it, now. Many thanks for posting. I wish PG Music would offer more videos, illustrations, examples, etc. with vocal outboard gear for those of us who sing and record with BIAB. That would be very helpful. After all, PG Music is offering TC Helicon products for sale on its web site. That being the case, why couldn’t they produce/offer a detailed video showing some of the vocal harmony tricks using BIAB? It’s tough to figure all this out alone. Thank goodness for this forum.
Rob: That’s the best explanation I’ve seen on this whole process. I get it, now. Many thanks for posting. I wish PG Music would offer more videos, illustrations, examples, etc. with vocal outboard gear for those of us who sing and record with BIAB. That would be very helpful. After all, PG Music is offering TC Helicon products for sale on its web site. That being the case, why couldn’t they produce/offer a detailed video showing some of the vocal harmony tricks using BIAB? It’s tough to figure all this out alone. Thank goodness for this forum.
I think it's cool that PGM includes the TC harmony feature in RealBand. But I don't think a lot of people take the time to figure it out, and the final product sounds a lot like the old TC harmony technology: mechanical and computer-ish. But, hey, it's free.
Probably because a lot of people are not doing the BIAB/TC thing, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, there hasn't been an obvious need for an instructional video on using TC products with BIAB. Maybe WE should do one, huh?
I was surprised how little VL3X recording info there was on Youtube and the TC site. I really had to dig around to find what I was looking for to make a recording setup work. This is probably because the VL3X is marketed as a live performance piece of gear. But it's certainly much more than that. I'm really blown away by the quality of the harmonies. TC has come a long way since the TC VoicePrism. Hard to imagine it getting any better than the VL3X though, unless they start doing something similar to BIAB's Real Tracks by incorporating some "Real Voice" tracks into the VL3X. Now that would be cool. Guess we'll see. In the meantime I'm going to make extensive use of the VL3X on my original songs and covers in our studio. Fun stuff, eh?
Here's an original song we did for our last album "Smoky Bars & Steel Guitars" titled "Summertown." The harmonies in the choruses were created with the TC Helicon VoicePrism. About as good as it got back in the early 2000s.
Summertown MP3 from "Smoky Bars & Steel Guitars" CD.
.... I think it's cool that PGM includes the TC harmony feature in RealBand. But I don't think a lot of people take the time to figure it out, and the final product sounds a lot like the old TC harmony technology: mechanical and computer-ish. But, hey, it's free ..
Indeed, you got me curious, just tested it a little, found it completely useless for me .. F
...and the final product sounds a lot like the old TC harmony technology: mechanical and computer-ish
The TC-Helicon was added in BIAB 2004, then enhanced a little in BIAB 2005, and as far as I can tell, has been pretty much the same ever since.
It would be nice if the harmonizer could be updated with newer technology (perhaps a cooperative arrangement with zPlane or even a new arrangement with TC-Helicon); however, it does seem that most harmonizers have gone to hardware, live-performance orientation.
I'd love to be able to use the editor at the same time, but it's seems it is not to be.
