If anyone has the Mariachi Style "_OAXACA", could they load and then generate and play it and see if they get a correct count-in for the time signature?

Thanks

OK. I created a new song with one chord, loaded the _OAXACA style (love tacos in this style!) and played the song.

I hear a 4/4 count-in on bongo of 1,2, 1234. It fits correctly with the music to follow, assuming this is a 6/8 style where there are twelve eighth notes in a measure of 4/4, at a tempo of (quarter note =) 110.

I could live with it. Is that what you are hearing?

I do think an eighth note subdivision sounding in the count-in would be more helpful, with 12 eighth notes per bar. 1 & 7 are emphasized in the first measure; 1,4,7 & 10 emphasized in the second.

Yes, what you've described is what I'm hearing.

I believe that there is a problem using a 4 beat count-in for this style. Although it 'technically / mathematically' fits, it is less than desirable for this style and would be improved with a 6/8 count-in.

The style should have a count-in that that matches the time signature.

I found further inconsistencies.

The style: '-68_BOS+' is a 6/8 Bossa style (6 even 8th notes per bar).

It actually has a 6/8 count-in.

I can’t imagine what that sounds like. I’ll try it. Thanks.

Matt. Please forgive the long-winded response below.

I've struggled with this part of your reply all day. I'm still having difficulty with it so am looking for some assistance / clarification.

The two values in a time signature indicate how many beats and what type are in each measure of music. We all know that a song with a time signature of 4/4 has four beats (top value), each with a value of a quarter note (lower value).
Similarly, a musical passage with a 3/4 meter has three quarter note beats to the bar.
When a song in 4/4 time is counted in, it is counted in as 1,2,3,4. The number of beats to the bar is 4 (the top value).
When a song in 3/4 time is counted in, it is counted in as 1,2,3 not 1,2,3,4. The number of beats to the bar is 3 (the top value).

In 6/8 time, the top number tells us there are 6 beats to the bar, each beat is an eighth note.

Using the same simple rule, when we count in a 6/8 song, surely it supposed to be counted in as the number of beats to the bar which is 6

Let's also think Paul Desmond. "Take 5" has to have a count in of 5. Nothing else fits. It's impossible to correctly count it as a 3, 4, 6, or anything else.

So I cannot reason how a song with 6 eighth note beats to the bar could ever be correctly counted in as 1,2,3,4. Surely it should have a multiple of 6 as the count-in value. The notes are not even quarter notes. They're eighth notes.

It goes against all the music theory I ever learned (I'm classically trained and I studied and sat Australian Conservatorium of Music and also sat London College of Music examinations for too many years to remember).

I just cannot get the comment "It fits correctly with the music to follow" to work. There are no quarter notes in the time signature. There are 6 x eighth notes.

The correct count-in for a 6/8 musical passage surely has to be something made up of 6 beats. Just the same as the count-in for a 3/4 song has 3 beats.

I know you mentioned it could be improved with a 12 beat count-in, but I'm keen to know how 4/4 is in any way acceptable.

Have I missed the goal here?

I'd also look forward to any reply from PG Music staff to indicate why a 4/4 count-in should be associated with music with 6/8 time signatures. I am willing to learn.

Trevor,

The correct tempo (and count-in) of time sigs of 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 is a group of 3 8th notes, not a single 8th. So this is a count-in on a dotted quarter. (Note: I am referring to the usual situations, and there are exceptions since people are free to notate music in different ways*)

It helps if we talk about a song example in 6/8. Let’s talk about funiculi funicula
Here is a link to sample of the sheet music
https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0067310

. and the tempo is usually about 140. That’s because the 140 is the tempo of a group of 3 eighth notes.
Imagine you are hearing that song, and clapping along - you wouldn’t be clapping at 420 which would be every 8 th note. You would clap every group of 3. So the BB countin is the same thing, and is at 140. The countin is four bars of 6/8. This is usually noted on the lead sheet by a dotted quarter symbol followed by “=140”

To hear this in practice, listen to this USF marching band.specifically, listen to their countin (and watch the conductor) which is exactly the familiar BIAB style countin 1-2- 1234 at tempo about 140. https://youtu.be/5yTUB1fyQ5Y

Does the countin that USF Marching band uses seem correct?

Peter

* an atypical example of 6/8 is when it is grouped as two 8ths per quarter, as in Christina Aguilera you lost me song. I prefer to think of these as 3/4 but it gets notated as 6/8. This is the exception to the rule. https://youtu.be/WOKI_tIBWVI

Hi Trevor. I didn’t say I like it, but i said I can live with it. Big difference.

What I meant is that I can hear in my head how it would sound when counting it, and indeed Peter has indicated he considers it the same way. I think 123 for each 4/4 beat. I indicated I would have counted it off as 1,2 123,123,123,...

Or 1,2 1e& 2e& 3e& ...

Everybody is in at the next measure with the triplet 6/8 feel in their heads. I play a lot of great 6/8 tunes in concert, like Footprints by Wayne Shorter. I’ve written some, too.

But since BIAB doesn’t (yet?) count off that way, I have to imagine it. Is that more reassuring?

My experience is all live stage work. A 6/8 tune is always counted off by a band leader as ONE two three, TWO two three, THREE two three, FOUR two three. Exactly like Peter says. As for Take 5, I play that all the time. I start it off on piano and everybody follows. On the original album Joe Morello starts it on drums but on Live at Carnegie Hall Brubeck starts it. We do Mission Impossible and it's also in 5 although one of the movies put it 8 for the out credits. Either myself of the bass starts it. I'm not saying that's a rule or anything it just seems like tunes in 5 sound better with an instrument starting them off rather than counting them in.

Bob

It says in the Style picker too that Mexican Hat Dance (La Raspa) is suitable as demo for this style. Now I found this Tube version, La Raspa , and further down there's a great rhythmic part with a walking bass; i wonder how to get such an arrangement construction into BIAB with this style ... Maybe one of you experts can?

PS Update: I figured it out: In the style maker the display shows a 4/4 groove, but when you replace the recorded Guitarron RT bass track with a midi bass that works it needs a 3rds' based counting, see pic. If some one wants to do some further style adapting to it i could send the _OAXACx style variation via a PM. It also makes the original style somehow better understandable and useful, IMO, as far as the _OAXACA groove works out for me. -F

Right, it's using quarter note triplets for this count-in. It's like what I mentioned, where there is a sort-of swing-starting count-in of 1,2 123 123

Very interesting. I didn't realize BIAB could play a 6/8 Bossa.

Thank you one and all for your detailed clarifications. The effort you all went to is greatly appreciated.

As a band leader, I feel it is vital to indicate to the other musicians that the music is to be performed in some type of group(s) of 3 x eighth notes. In my view, a 4/4 count-in for a 6/8 song just doesn't sit right, especially when this could be improved significantly.

I prefer the suggestion by several members to count it such as 1,2 123,123,123,...

Thanks again to everyone for your input.

I learned from this thread that it appears it must be possible to alter the count-in to suit time signatures (from the -68_BOS style), so perhaps we can recommend in the Wishlist some styles where this should be done.

Good point Matt.
I am genuinely hoping that an existing Wishlist item which requests that the count-in matches the time-signature of the first bar will be available one day.

If the first bar is 6/8 it should be able to provide a count-in in a format such as 1, 2, 1,2,3,1,2,3

I think that the count-in is currently recorded as a fixed part of the style and this is what possibly needs to be changed.

I do know there has been a huge amount of support for both the count-in to match the time signature, and also for it to be selectable locally for a song, and not a global setting (all or nothing) function.

We can only hope it will be introduced.