Hi
I am trying to better understand how shots & rests actually work in BIAB. I am putting together a track as a practice backing for Norah Jones & The Little Willies song "Love Me", here on you tube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAuMcPxvWsI

The intro has a nice piano build-up over C-C7-/F GAug - -/ with a break on bar 2 beat 2, but the piano notes spill-over into the beats 3 & 4.

I have tried lots of different ways to re-create this but all my attempts result in the piano being 'cut off' sharply at beat 2 of bar 2, rather than spilling over (ringing ion) into the last couple of beats.

I realise this is a detail point but I wanted to better understand how the whole shots/rests thing works and sounds so thought it would be a good way to learn.

Also, this break idea is a repeating theme in the song so be great to nail it.

Any ideas please?

Many thanks
Mark

I think what you're going for is a held chord for the piano to get that particular effect.

You can do this with periods/ellipses, but personally I would go to the bar settings (F5), rest all instruments except for the piano, and switch the piano to "held" for that measure (or 2 measures or a 1/2 measure depending on what resolution you're working with).

What piano Realtrack are you using? I'd like to try it out and see if I reproduce what you're after.

Hey DB
Thanks for the idea. I took a look at Bar Setting but there is no Hold option there, the Hold option is only in Chord settings.
I set the G+ to hold but it is still just playing on that beat only then cutting off. Sounds like it is being unplugged!
Here is a screen shot of the chord worksheet showing what I have done

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/zv2dpeuulqrse6m/LoveMeScreenshot.jpg?dl=0[/img]

And here is a rendered audio clip of what is happening

Rendered Audio Clip


To me the Hold function sounds the same as a Shot. I am sure it should be different, maybe it isn't working right or I have done something wrong.

Be interesting to get this working though as it is used in so many songs.

BTW, I am using BIAB 2018 for Mac.
The RealStyle is _SHAKIN

Thanks for your help
Mark

You can use a second piano part on a different channel doing just the held chord. At the appropriate bar to play the held chord, mute Piano 1 which will be you main piano instrument. On a free track, load a piano 2 and play a held chord at the appropriate bar. Mute the held chord track on the bar after the ring out decay concludes and unmute your main Piano 1. Match the volume, pan, Fx and tone settings of both Piano instruments. They should match Piano 1, your main Piano part. Raise or lower Piano 2's volume to match Piano 1. This should not be an issue if you are using the same Piano RealTrack except that when you select Piano 2 in the RealTracks Picker, you will also select the 'Hold' button so the Piano plays a held chord, this can sometimes result in a difference in volume that needs to be addressed.

If you don't have a free track, this can still be done on any other track for a bar or two where the piano hold is a more important instrument than another on those particular bars. For instance, if in your song the Lead Guitar resides on the Melodist track. At Bar 2 where the intro held piano chord needs to be; Go to Bar Settings and select the RealTracks Button and replace the Lead Guitar Soloist with a Piano Instrument doing a held chord. Move forward two bars and go to Bar Settings and replace the RealTrack Piano back with the Lead Guitar instrument. Selecting the RealTracks button opens the RealTracks Menu allowing you to select any RT.

In this scenario, during the intro in either case, whether the second piano resides on its own track or is sharing a track with another instrument, the piano held chord will sound out and decay to silence over the selected bars. If it's on a shared track, the next bar after the decay, the lead guitar instrument will replace the piano. If it's on its own track, after the decay, mute that track.

Either way, it can be repeated anywhere throughout the song.

Hey Noel

Thanks for your interest.

I am using _SHAKIN

It may not be the most suitable for what I am doing but I am still getting to grips with the myriad of real tracks available and it seems fairly close, although the plane isn't quite there for sure. If you have any better ideas please say!

Cheers
Mark

Gee, I listened to the render and that sounds gnarly :-(

So I don't have the program w/ me at the moment to try and replicate it, but here's what I would suggest (and please update as I'm curious if it works!). Try and remove the three periods altogether and just let the chord play out--w whatever insturments you need muted, ofc.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that with the space you've allocated for that particular chord to play before the next part marker, BiaB will do exactly what you're trying to accomplish anyway--especially if you set the piano to "simple" for that particular bit.

As a last resort, if that does not work, have the piano play the A substyle for the lead in, as the A substyles are generally less busy than the B substyles, and I strongly doubt the piano will elect to play anything other than a held chord if you try any, let alone all, of the above.

Lemme know if it works :-)

DB

I agree with Deacon if you're attempting to create as close to original cover of the song, you will find more suitable RealTracks by instrument rather than Style. Rather than completely depend on a Style to get you there, select any Style, be it MIDI or RealTrack Style that is a fairly close genre style and not worry about the specific RealTracks or MIDI at first.

My guess is you will find a more suitable genre style Searching MIDI Styles. In fact, I suggest you do an internet search and download a free MIDI file of that particular song and use at least the Piano track from the song. You likely will also quickly find a suitable MIDI Bass even using GM MIDI sounds. I have no doubt you have suitable MIDI piano and bass sounds to suit your needs as a practice backing track. I think You will create a backing track you can perform live with in minutes using the MIDI file technique.

What you are trying to do is easy in a DAW. In BiaB have the piano play for the whole measure. Drag and drop the tracks into a DAW. On that measure use volume automation to fade the piano, then at the start of the next measure sharply bring the volume back to normal.

You gotta think OUT OF THE BOX....

Using bar settings, adjusting the bar length, using holds and shots and pushes, etc..... Then you also have to set down and think, puzzle, contemplate, and then figure out how you could use the tools you have to achieve the desired goal you want. All things are possible but some are much harder than others.

Trying to replicate ANY cover tune exactly is kinda like a MISSION IMPOSSIBLE scenario. To even get close, you have to be able to play the parts that are unique and give the song it's character and be able to figure out work-arounds for those seemingly impossible brick walls you will encounter.

Otherwise, you have to settle for close and kinda sounds like the cover. I've done a couple of covers and for 2 of them, I decided to do "my version" .....and the other two.... I spent time learning and playing and recording the signature licks that gave the song it's identification. Finally, I mixed them in a DAW rather than trying to construct a faithful cover in BB. It was just much easier to use the DAW.

All good advice above.

Here is a link to my Dropbox with a 30 sec clip rendered with PGMusic stock GM Midi Coyote - Including Downloading the midi file, this was completed in less than 3 minutes.

Easy as a point and shoot camera.

Note: For educational demonstration only.


EDIT: Removed temporary Link

Hey DB

I tried taking out all the bar and chord settings, just the vanilla A style on the 4 bar intro. Doesnt really do the G+ chord hold as I would like but it is certainly usable.

I am only really pursuing this as I am trying to learn/understand how these things work, it is an interesting exercise in pushing the edges of what BIAB can do and how it works.

Thanks a lot for your ideas.

BTW, how do you set the 'piano to Simple' as you suggest? I dont see any settings for that in Song/Bar or Chord settings. This is half the issue with BIAB, it does so much but the location of stuff is a bit hap-hazard. Symptom of software that has been updated for 20 years...

Thanks
Mark

Hey GH
Thanks for the pearls of wisdom. Whilst I would really like to get close to a cover backing track, just cos it is more fun to practice against when it sounds 'authentic' I do realise that is maybe a step too far for BIAB. I am just pursuing this as a learning exercise to try and better understand how these things work and get a feel for how to achieve things.
You guys have already dropped a ton of experience and knowledge on me just from this one simple question. Stuff you could never get from PG, they just don't have the time for it, understandably.

I keep hearing 'it is easier in a DAW'. I guess I am going to have to bit the bullet and have a go. I have been shying away from doing that as it would just be yet another piece of software to lear, another learning curve etc. Seems I need to man up and do it!

Hey Mario

Yeah it seems I am gonna have to take the plunge and fire up the DAW. I use a Mac and have Logic installed and also Pre-Sonus Studio One. Obviously Logic is an industry standard Pro thing but looks a beast to learn. Not sure which one to fire up first. Looking to minimise the learning curve to get something usable, not looking for studio quality, CD master quality output.

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Mark

Hey Charlie

Thanks for the sage advice!

I have tried to stick to using RealStyles as a starting point as there are just so many of them, and to be honest, the descriptions and names are bit unhelpful to say the least So I generally have no idea how to find what I am looking for without auditioning every one that comes close, very time consuming....

Also, I have tried to find individual tracks that may fit better, in particular with bass lines, but the Real Track picker dialog doesnt have the improved filtering/searching that the Real Style picker has, so its a real chore finding anything. Sure hope PG will add the improved searching in the Tracks dialog in the next release.



I havent done too much with MIDI yet. I am looking to get the Native Sample Tank thing to get some decent instrument sounds as I do want to get more aware of the MIDI side.
Is it possible to mix MIDI and Real tracks in the same song. For example, in the excellent MIDI demo you linked in below, the Piano & Bass sound great. Would it be possible to then add a Real Track drum track to the song? Some of the drum tracks in BISB are pretty good generally, if sometimes a bit too busy.

Are you aware of any docs or posts detailing someones workflow to create a song from external midi files in BIAB? Be a really useful insight into how they do it.

Thanks again for the help, I have learnt so much today just from the points in this thread from all concerned! Not least what a helpful and knowledgeable bunch the people are on this forum...

Cheers
Mark

Wow, that is amazing! Did you get Norah in to play that piano!

OK so, the inevitable questions

* Where did you find the MIDI file?

* How did you use it in BIAB (I am new to MIDI in BIAB, have used it a bit in a DAW)

* Can you add a Real Drum track to the same song?

Thanks again for all the help. And 3 minutes??? Showin' Off!!

I would take one, really learn how to operate it, and put the other on the back burner. Personally I like Presonus Studio One. It is very easy to use once you get past the terminology.

I do not have a Mac so I can't comment on the current version of Logic.

Yes you can mix MIDI tracks, RTs, and RDs in the same song.

I know that you can create a song from a MIDI file but it has been a very long time since I have done that; I bring external MIDI files into my DAW. So instead of just trying to remember, I have a terrible memory, I will let someone more experienced answer that question.

<<< OK so, the inevitable questions >>>

* Where did you find the MIDI file?

Internet Google search. Some are pay sites and some are free. There are some great sites and also great files but be wary of the not so great files. Many times though, the not so great files can be easily edited into great files. Many MIDI files are Artist interpretations of a commercial Hit and not so much a cover. That in itself is not a bad thing as such a version could easily become a custom cover for you. Also take a flash drive with you to your local music store, especially if you do a bit of business with them and they may load you up with MIDI files. My local store gave me over 3,000.

* How did you use it in BIAB (I am new to MIDI in BIAB, have used it a bit in a DAW)

Here's the good news about BIAB and MIDI. For many more years than PGMusic's BIAB has featured RealDrums and RealTracks, it was MIDI based software. It works lovely with MIDI. Even better if you have the PC version that includes RealBand. If you do covers for practice, for live or for recording, MIDI is the place to start. There is a lot to say about using MIDI with BIAB and it's all good. I will touch on just a few things here.

If you load a MIDI file, it automatically populates the chord chart. EDIT: F7 is the open command to look for MIDI files. (If a file has the .KAR suffix [Karaoke] - Band in a Box will open the file the same as a .mid file.)

It normally has a Melody track so it is a very easy song to practice to.

It generates very quickly.

Key changes can be made without affecting pitch and the chord chart is updated to the new key at the same time.

Tempo changes can be made without affecting pitch

Shots, rests and holds are normally built into the file

Editing is very comprehensive and nearly as easy as editing a typewritten document.

There are many BIAB Styles that are almost recognizable commercial songs
- One example is B_Gees2.STY is loosely based on "Staying Alive". It can be edited (and saved as a custom style) to very closely match the original notes of the song. Look for other 'Artist' based styles and some of those styles can be edited, modified and saved in a similar manner.

Check out Forum Member Notes Norton's Midi site. He specializes in BiAB midi styles, has complete Fake Books with matching midi files. He can make a custom midi style or song for you at a reasonable cost.

Everything in a MIDI file can be edited.

The Melody track can be used to generate MIDI based vocal backing parts with TC Helicon or instruments that follow the melody line.

Using the StylePicker, it's easy to do a search for the MIDI song you've loaded, locate a appropriate RealTrack Style and quickly generate a backing accompaniment track. At this point you can continue to use signature riffs and the melody track to go along with your backing track.

* Can you add a Real Drum track to the same song?

Yes. Load a MIDI file, Select a RealDrum kit you like on the Drums track and it will replace the MIDI drums with a RealDrum.

Thanks again for all the help. And 3 minutes??? Showin' Off!!

Yes. Absolutely.

<<< how do you set the 'piano to Simple' as you suggest? >>>

From the RealTracks Picker - if a RealTrack has a simple version, in the upper right corner, the Simple Box will not be greyed out, Click to select the simple version of the RealTRack. If there is no simple version, the Simple box will be Greyed out. This applies to all of those boxed adjacent to the simple box.

<<< Are you aware of any docs or posts detailing someones workflow to create a song from external midi files in BIAB? Be a really useful insight into how they do it. >>>

Our very own Joanne Cooper has many excellent BIAB and RB tutorial blogs including one with step by step instructions on loading and developing a song using MIDI. I know the guy that originally put her onto how it's done. He's a smart dude....

Joanne also has a really comprehensive course on making your first song with RealBand. It's inexpensive and worth more than she charges and it's a great resource. She has links at the bottom of any of her posts here on the forum...

I highly recommend her Blogs and courses.

Hey Mark,

So I'm still going to demonstrate how a chord can be elongated in another tutorial, however in the meantime, I want to point out that when I played the SGU you sent me I had no problem having that chord sustain no matter what combination of settings I used (e.g. various combinations of "held" "simple" "bluesy").

Here's a link to a clip of the play through.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z9kUIH4Gy9goiFPzH-R8pvoAzlHD4AEP