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Posted By: Bernier Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 01:13 PM
Ok all - I have tried to do this before with no luck.
I have PT Pro V 2015(2). What I want to do is record one series of chords in midi with one horn section, then duplicate it exactly on a new track with a different horn section.
I am using a Juno. DI synth. According to the tone list map, my first horn section is MSB 087 LSB 067 PC 98. My second horn section is MSB 087 LSB 058 PC 23.

How can I do this?
Thanks to all for help!
Bernier
Posted By: jford Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 02:27 PM
Bernier -

If you have the first track recorded, the you should be able to duplicate that first track to another track. Make sure both tracks are assigned to your Juno for output (whether it's a MIDI out port or a USB out port).

On the first track, you should be able to right click and assign MSB, LSB, and patch number. Do the same for the second track with the other horn section.

Another thing to do is to select each track and then hit the F2 key and look at the MIDI data to make sure there is not a hard coded patch change present in the MIDI track. This will over-ride whatever you have set at the track level. For example, when I record from my keyboard, the keyboard sends the MIDI patch to the computer and it gets recorded into the track's MIDI data stream. If I later try to set it at the track level, it appears to make no change, because it's already written something different to the MIDI data. Check this for both tracks.

Hopefully this works for you.

Attached picture PTPA Patch Select.jpg
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 04:29 PM
What John said (again)

Bernier - I don't have a Juno DI (but I have a ton of other Roland gear) and I just checked to make sure it WAS multi-timbral (looked at specs/manual: 16 parts/128 voices, so typical synth)

Now, and this is not to insult you, it's a "just in case" and for other readers, but you know those horn parts need to be assigned to different Juno DI parts (MIDI channels)?

Unless you are trying to set up some patch layering or keyboard split assignments? In that case you will need to write some SYSEX commands to do that from within PowerTracks

Good Luck
Larry
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 04:30 PM
Thanks for the help. I've been using PT for years and I remembered why I always give up on it for months at a time! I spend 99% of my time messing with settings and 1% making music!
Here is what is happening. I followed your instructions and set MSB to 87, LSB to 67, and PC to 98. What I should get is trombone section. What I do get is "vibraphone".
I went to the patch select dialogue and chose Roland GS.
In the book with the Juno it lists MSB 87 LSB 67 and PC 98 as trombone section.
What now? Thanks as always. Bernier
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 04:36 PM
Thanks Larry. I am never insulted when I am learning. I do not know how to assign the horn parts to channels. Can you tell me?
Thanks!
Posted By: jford Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 05:03 PM
You can set the channel of a track to be anything from 1-16 (just right-click and set it). However, if there is already data on the track, you may have to remap the channel already in use.

Somewhere on the menu is an option to rechannel the MIDI. I would select the track, then hit F2 and look at the MIDI Event List to see what channel the notes are on. The select the "Rechannel" command. Select that channel the notes are on and enter it as both "Old high channel" and "Old low channel". Then enter the new channel as both "New high channel" and "New low channel", hit okay, and the data on that track should be remapped.

Also (and Larry can help me here), isn't Roland GS rather than GM, in which case the numbers may be offset by one. Another option is to try to find a patch map for the Juno. PGMusic has a bunch, but not all. You can also use a Sonar patch map and convert it for use with PowerTracks. Instructions to do so should be in the help file and/or user manual (search on patch map).
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 06:39 PM
Roland is zero based (and in this case is GM2) but forget that for now

1. GO to here

https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/juno-di/updates_drivers/

2. At bottom of page Download: JUNO-Di SONAR Instrument Definition List (Patches)

(good place to find manuals, and other utilities as well)

3. Open PowerTracks and follow instructions here

http://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_ptwpatchmap.htm#convert


NOW you have a PATCH MAP that you can use to select BY NAME the patches you want.

The conversion utility will ask you if you want to append this new set to the existing patches.ini: SAY Yes.

Then close PT and re-open so it can rebuild the "PATCHES.BIN" file.

Better yet, close Power tracks, then DELETE (or rename if you're worried) the "PATCHES.BIN" file then re-start PT and it WILL rebuild the PATCHES.BIN and your Juno DI will be available as a patch map

Larry
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/07/16 06:55 PM
Wow - you guys are awesome! Can't wait to try it tomorrow! Bernier
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 01:14 PM
The instructions say to go to the Action menu in PT and choose "Convert patch list from Band-in-a-Box® or Cakewalk". There is no option in my Action menu that matches the tutorial. ( I have PT ver 2015). The file I downloaded from Roland for the patches has a setup in it, but when I press that it tells me a file is missing. I tried this several times.
I do have a new file called JunoDI_patch+GM2.ins on my desktop.
Help!
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 06:42 PM
First, RE: the Powertracks Menu/tutorial, my mistake, seems PT 2015 & 2016 have changed, and that menu "action" item got moved and buried one more level down.

Go to Edit menu

"EDIT -> MIDI -> Convert patch list from Band-in-a-Box® or Cakewalk"

Second, re: the Roland site - there is no "setup" in the file you SHOULD have downloaded?

There was nothing to setup or install vis–à–vis the : the link towards bottom of page that says

"JUNO-Di SONAR Instrument definition List (Patches)"

on the Roland site, - just download and UNZIP!

The unzip gives you a folder that contains the resultant " .ins" file that you do want, it is the one you will convert to an ".ini" file from within PowerTracks.
You say you have it, the .ins file, on your desktop, good.
Remember during conversion it will ask if you want to append at end of existing patches.ini file - SAY YES.

Otherwise YOU will need to remember where the now named " JunoDI_patch+GM2.ini" was stored, then rename it to "patches.ini", then MOVE it to the PowerTracks folder (PowerTracks only looks to the PowerTracks folder for the .patches.ini file - it will not work if the .ini is sitting on your desktop)!

Finally please note, that the file "JunoDI_patch+GM2.ins" is the complete Juno DI instrument list: WITHOUT the drums, that's a separate download, the last one on that Roland page called " JUNO-Di SONAR Instrument definition List (Rhythm Kit)."

You would have to Download, convert, and append it to the "patches.ini" if you want each rhythm kit and its note mappings.

Larry

Attached picture convert.jpg
Attached picture roland.jpg
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 07:19 PM
Thanks so much Larry! Everything went fine. Then I launched pt, and it asked to setup midi drivers. I chose Juno for both input and output, hit ok, and received a blue screen error " bad_pool_header". Tried this a couple of times and keep getting same blue screen error.
Boy, this is getting frustrating.....
Thanks as always - Bernie
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 07:34 PM
Right back where I started. I got PT to work after loading the midi drivers. Changed first track to midi, chose MSB 087 LSB 067 PC 098. According to my manual, this is supposed to be trombone section. What I get is FX2 - some kind of synth sound. At my wits end.
Help appreciated!
Posted By: rharv Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 08:18 PM
Try Options-Patch Names .. then select the list you want to see, hopefully Juno shows up ..

MSB LSB should not be needed once installed correctly

See how I can select a GM sound on the left and see all the variations on the right?

Attached picture patches.jpg
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/10/16 10:05 PM
what Rharv said

The whole point of having a patch file is so that you DO NOT need to type in MSB/LSB + Patch number.

You need to do some reading in the PT documentation on how to use patches, instruments, assign them to tracks, etc. (just like you would with any ANY DAW)


Larry
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 09:13 AM
Something I just tthought of - in the midi select box, there is a checkbox for re-route to CoyoteWT. should this be unchecked? When it is checked, is it using this patch map rather than Juno? Thanks! Bernie
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 11:14 AM
Here is exactly what I am doing.
1. go to the first track in PT, R click on track and change the track type to midi.
2. R click, program, brass, 57: trumpet
E. Patch select dialogue: patch list Roland GS , 57: trumpet. There is a window on the right that lists "variations". The only entry there is 0:trumpet

In my Roland manual, it lists Like this:
Brass
No. 791 Br077 Trumpet. BRS 121 0 57
( where MSB is 121 and LSB is 0)

This is what I am trying to get. This is the trumpet "section" Any ideas?
Thanks as always. Bernier
Posted By: rharv Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 11:31 AM
If you insist on using MSB LSB then do it in the Classic Tracks window ..

If you do not see your Juno-DI listed in your patch map you didn't do it right.
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 12:19 PM
I'd rather use the non MSB LSB if I could figure out how to get it to work...
I've got Roland GS and Roland VSC - GS mode. Shouldn't one of these work?
Posted By: rharv Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 12:42 PM
No, GM and GS only handle a certain subset of the patches on your synth.

Sounds like you have not created the Patch Map correctly.
Can you post your patches.ini file somewhere?
Do you remember seeing PT say it was rebuilding the patches.bin file? This is a necessary step.
With PT not running:
Rename Patches.bin to ParchesOld.bin (or whatever) then restart PT.
You should see PT say it is rebuilding Patches.Bin.
Once done see if your Juno-DI shows an option in the Patches Dialogue along with the other GM/GS options.

See in my image above how the Patch Dialogue lists my Juno-G? That is how yours should look with the Juno-DI.

And yes, if you check the box to Re-Route all MIDI to DXi synth, that's what happens! All MIDI goes there instead of out to the Juno-DI ...
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 01:49 PM
Hi Larry -I did as you suggested and deleted patches.bin from the PT folder.
I do have a patches.ini file in thE PT folder. I restarted PT and then looked in the PT folder, and there's is now no patches.bin file there, yet I am getting no error messages.
Please advise - thanks
Bernier
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 04:01 PM
Thanks! Obviously the patch map is the issue - I don't have a dialogue box that looks like yours yet....
Posted By: rharv Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 04:01 PM
Your File Explorer may be hiding patches.bin from you. Tell it to show operating system files.
(In Folder Options allow viewing System Files)

Did you see Patches.BIN get rebuilt??



Attached picture FolderOptions.jpg
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/11/16 06:18 PM
Hi Rharv -I did that. No help.
When I opened patch select dialogue, I got Select Patch, patch list: RolandJuno-DI-Patch. In the window is <none>
in the variations box it says Variations <no bank changes>

I did a search for any bin files on my system. None found that were patch files.
I went through and got rid of anythIng in the PT folder that was titled "patches". Rebooted the system, launched PT, and it loaded fine. Went into the midi dialogue and Juno listed in both input and output (This is with the Juno on and plugged in). The only difference now is that the patch dialogue box comes up and the title of the box is Program Change. There is a window inside with a 1 in it. The only other thing is a disabled box, which is not checked.
I was never asked to rebuild the bin file. is it possible it is named something else? Is it possible it is somehow pulling the patch file from the Juno device itself?
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/12/16 01:01 PM
II contacted both PT help desk and Roland help desk.
I am wondering if I should reinstall PT 2015. If I do, will my previous work files be saved?
Thanks as always
Posted By: jford Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/12/16 01:06 PM
Bernier -

Would you mind sending a representative file you are working on. I'd be happy to take a look at it. I don't have your keyboard, but I do have an external keyboard (which requires a patch map), so can simulate a lot of it.

Just PM me and we can coordinate file transfer.
Posted By: Bernier Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/12/16 04:19 PM
HI! Got it to work! I called PT help desk. He explained what I have to do is run a patch cable from the audio out on my Juno synth to the instrument input in my POD device. Then, record the first track in midi. Switch to another track in PT, go to the Juno and pick the new sound I want on the Juno synth, then hit the record button in PT. What this does is record the same exact notes on the new track with the sound I have chosen on the synth itself. This bypasses having to change patches. Of course, the new recorded with track is now audio, but that's ok because that is what I wanted to end up with.
He also had me do a clean install of PT.
What I am trying to do is record horns for Chicago songs. I have read that they originally "triple tracked" their horns. What I am trying to do is get that same fat sound. Now, instead of playing single notes on single horns, I am playing chords using the horn section setting. The I record that on the next track using a different horn section. Huge difference! Any suggestions to "fatten up" the sound?
Thanks for ALL your time and effort!!!!
Bernier
Posted By: Larry Kehl Re: Duplicating Horns - 09/12/16 06:32 PM
Well that's one way, I guess.

Glad you got it working the way you want
Larry
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