Can anyone suggest a plug in I can buy to give midi notes great horn sounds? Midi horns alone - not very good....
Thanks! Nbernie

Bernie -

I would suggest Native Instruments Session Horns for $99 or Session Horns Pro for $299, but you need the full Kontakt at $99 to use it. If you can afford it, however, for $599, you can get Native Instruments Komplete 11, which includes Session Horns plus a whole bunch of other good stuff. Session Horns Pro, however, only comes bundled with Komplete 11 Ultimate, which would push you over $1000.

Session Horns has a smart voice split, so if you play a chord, it will split the sounds between up to four different instruments (for example, two trumpets, a tenor sax, and a trombone), and it can even drop the octave of the bottom instrument.

If you want to hear and see how it works, there is a great video tutorial on Groove3 (which is not free, but not expensive) where Eli Krantzberg does a great job of demonstrating how it works and you get to hear the results.

Others may have better suggestions for brass libraries, but I've been pretty happy with the sounds from Session Horns (I have the Pro version, well actually both, since I started with the basic version and then upgraded to Pro).

Additionally, once you have the full Kontakt player, there are a number of free and low cost orchestral instrument libraries out there that sound pretty good.

Thanks John! How would these integrate with PT? I.e., how are theynused?
Thank! Bernie

Kontakt is a VSTi. You would assign a track to the Kontakt VSTi. Then when the interface opens, you would select the Session Horns instrument. Make sure to match the channel from the track to the channel in the Kontakt interface. Then the MIDI data gets sent to Session Horns and you hear the output. Session Horns has a lot of tweaks you can make. I generally then save those settings in the Kontakt Player (although in theory they should be saved when you save the song). I usually just go ahead and render the track to audio once I have it the way I want it, at which point I don't incur the overhead of using the VSTi with a fairly large sound library.

Also, I just looked and see there is a new video tutorial on Groove3 called "Creating Realistic MIDI Horns". I haven't seen it yet (but plan to), but it might be something to check out.

Wow - just went to Groove3 where there was one tutorial that was free - "stacking instruments".
I'm starting to feel like I will need a post doc degree in engineering to even begin to understand all that is out there!
Bernie

Since I plan to do a lot of Chicago tunes, I think I'm going to invest the $200 for Kontakt.
I have been reading lots of tutorials lately. As I understand it, a VSTi (plug in) is something that modifies a track, with effects or different instruments, is that correct?
Thanks! Bernie

1. If you find Kontakt for $200 you may want to post that sale link for others! (it's usually $299 unless on sale, or crossgrade from various products for $249 - go to Native Instruments site for that info) and the Kontakt horns (that John mentioned above) Session Horns is $99 and the Session Horns Pro is $299 (or upgrade from Session Horns for $199) again unless on sale. So it will be a bit more than $200 to get both Kontakt and one of its horns packages.

BTW until Jan 4 you can get a $25 eVoucher off on anything there.

Don't initially get "target fixated" on amassing plug-ins or Kontakt, Kontakt is not the ONLY game in town. However, Kontakt, at some point, will probably wind up in your tool box so not a bad way to start if you have the scratch.

No matter what go ahead and get the FREE Kontakt player - ditto the free Sampletank 3 Custom shop at IK multimedia (and check eSoundz for sales on Sampletank and
MAKE sure you check these two PG forum links (the first one has another link that is little dated, in that only one of the free soundfont players mentioned can still be found, the SForzando player, but good stuff anyway)

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=387132#Post387132

and this one

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=386953#Post386953


Beyond free soundfonts here are some other free sounds http://www.dskmusic.com/


2. Plug-ins come in TWO "kinds:"

a. instruments: piano, guitar, drum kit, four piece jazz band, or entire orchestra AND

b. effects: delays, compressors, reverbs, eq's, etc.)


3. And these plug-ins can come in multiple "types" (code specifications) I will only list TWO here, the two that BIAB, RB and PTPA can use:

a. Virtual Studio Technology (aka VST)

b. Microsoft Direct X (aka DX)

They call a Virtual Studio Technology "instrument" (see #2a above) a "VSTi" (i=instrument) and effects only plug-ins (usually only effects) "VST"

DITTO Direct X forms - ALL DX instruments (see 2b above) are called "DXi" (i=instrument) and all FX only, usually "DX"

As to "modifying a track" with these plug-ins (I like to think of it as sending the track data to the plug-in - not the other way around).

If you have a MIDI only track (MIDI only data: note on, note off, note number, note velocity, MIDI channel, et./c) you would send that to a VSTi or DXi (instrument) to generate some kind of sound.

If you had a Audio only track (actual sound) you could send that to a VST or DX to add eq., delay , compression, etc.

That's the SIMPLE version.

Larry

Thanks Larry!

Can I use the free Kontakt player with purchased session horns in Power Tracks or do I need something else?
Thanks - Bernie

The answer depends on the purchased Session Horns requirements. Typically the instrument patch advertising will include a minimum Kontakt statement. The statement may read something like "This requires the full Kontakt player", "Kontakt 4.2 or higher is required", or "This works with either the free or full version of Kontakt".

Larry, although I already knew this, I found your explanation quite impressive in clarity. It's really a good first step explanation to get folks started.



Charlie

Hey John - just purchased and installed session horns from Kontakt. All,I can say is wow! Awesome sound!
When I open the dialogue box there are 2 choices. One looks like a full horn section, and not sure what the other is. Do you know?
Also, this is obviously a very memory intensive app. I have not been able to get through my song without an out of memory error. I have 4 GB installed but just ordered more so I'll have 8GB. Will that be enough? I did purge the samples too.
I also plan to convert that track to audio as soon as I can
Thanks again - Bernie

Well, after upgrading from 4 MB's to 8 MB's (the max my laptop can hold) still getting out of memory errors. Changed the VST in the track I had assigned to Kontakt back to Juno, and still got the errors. I ended up having to uninstall Konkakt 5 player to stop the errors and shutdowns. I guess 8 MB's of memory is not enough. Any suggestions?
I did go through ms config and disabled every startup app I could.
Thanks- Bernie

Bernie,

What version of Windows do you run? If it's a 32-bit version, it will only see a maximum of around 3.3 - 3.5 GB of memory.

Here's a link to a Microsoft article

Below is an approach to using Kontakt that might work...

Rather than try to play everything at once, first convert the midi track with the Kontakt plugin into an audio file.

To do this...

• 1. Right click on the track and load select "Specific VSTi/DXi synth for midi track" (#1 on the upper image below). Choose "Kontakt" from the list shown by #2 or add the Kontakt plugin if it's not on the list.
  
  Note: do not use the FX button to load the synth intitially. This can be used to access the synth once it's been loaded as described by the above dot-point.
  
  
• 2. Set the track's midi channel if required.
• 3. Press CTRL+A to select the entire track.
• 4. Right-click on the track and select the "Auto convert" midi to audio option shown as #1 on the lower image below.
• 5. Enter the destination track (#2 on the lower image). (Depending on your computer's processing power, it may take 30 seconds or so to generate the audio.)

Doing the above, should, in theory, assign most of the available computing power to Kontakt and to creating the audio file. The computer is no longer multitasking by trying to work with everything at once. Also, it might be prudent to close other programs when you do this as they will also be drawing on the computer's resources.

Once the audio track is generated, mute the the original midi track that has the Kontakt plugin (or, if need be, remove the Kontakt plugin).

The audio track that's created might need to be boosted in volume using PG Music's Gain Change audio plugin.

Let us know the outcome.

Regards,
Noel

Thanks Noel! It turns out I didn't have one of my memory dims pushed all the way in so my system was only seeing half of my upgraded memory. Have not tried Konkakt yet with new memory I'll let you know.
Bernie

Hi, Bernie -

Sometimes my memory is dim too!

I guess I will have to render it to audio. I am still getting out of memory errors.
I like midi because I can adjust a notes duration, etc.
Thanks! Bernie

Yesterday rendered the midi file with Konkakt loaded to an audio track. Many of the notes in chords drop out. Today, I tried to record audio form the midi track with Kontakt onto a different track. The midi track plays while recording, but nothing shows up on the audio track, and the input meter does not move. help appreciated!
Bernie

Bernie,

It sounds like you need to set your soundcard to record what it's hearing (or equivalent; the actual name of the option depends on the brand of soundcard).

To set the soundcard settings...

1. Right-click on the speaker icon in the task bar.

2. Select "Recording".

3. Follow the 1, 2, 3 on the image below.

Also, when I render to an audio track, the midi file does not play. When I select the options to create an audio (as described above), the process simply renders directly to a track without any sound. I solo'd the track that I converted to audio. I had also saved the file as an SEQ file before rendering. (Did you follow my above instructions exactly as written? I don't know why you hear the midi when rendering and I don't. I'm using PTPA 2017.)

Another thought.... have you tried converting to a wav file rather than an audio track. The wav could then be loaded back in.

Regards,
Noel

Generally, "What U Hear" is a Creative Sound Card specific option; most other sound cards (but not all) use "Stereo Mix" as the equivalent.

Today I had problems again with Kontakt so I uninstalled it and reinstalled. What I found out was if I try to load the 64 bit ddls I get a message from PT saying not a valid VST. Not sure why since my pc is 64bit. Was able to load the 32 bit ddls into PT midi track. Chose to convert a midi track to audio track and it was successful but nothing on the audio track. I then chose to save the Kontakt midi track to a .wav file. It said it was successful. Opened the wav file and nothing, even though the file size was 52 MB's.
I spend way more time with pc issues than making music - not sure if it is power tracks or what.

In order to load the 64-bit DLL in PowerTracks, you must also have jbridge installed, otherwise it will not work.

If I have some time this weekend, I'll see what happens on my machine, since I have Kontakt (albeit the full version) and Session Horns (as well as Session Horns Pro).

If you feel comfortable, Bernie, could you send me the file you are working on to eliminate something there?

My email address is in my user profile.

I do have jbridge. How do I use it? How will it affect memory?
Thanks!

Updated and ran jbridger. Still getting the not a valid VST when trying to load the 64bit files in supposedly created into PT
Bernie

You should not need to run the "jbridger" utility. You just need to install jbridge for PGMusic products to recognize it. "Jbridger" is a utility to bridge effects/instruments for DAWs that don't natively support jbridge.

Make sure you run the registered version of jbridge or it's not going to work. You can't just download a copy of jbridge from J's website; you need to have purchased and registered jbridge, then go to the link where you enter your email address. You will then receive jbridge via email, which you have to double extract (the first file is in 7z format and the second is in zip format - I suspect that's because some email systems don't allow compressed executable files). Once you get to the EXE file, you just run it (I would probably "run as administrator") and it should install jbridge. PowerTracks (and RealBand and BIAB) should all recognize it and you can load 64-bit effects.

If you have already done all this, then I'm not sure what is going on. I know on my machine, the programs recognized the plugins right away.

One thing to keep in mind also is that PowerTracks (and the others) only allow one or the other; so you can't load both the 32-bit and the 64-bit version at the same time. If you currently have the 32-bit version loaded, you have to remove it from the list using the options tools on the VST screen, then add the 64-bit version. Likewise for going back from 64-bit to 32-bit.

Again, send me the file and I'll be happy to take a look at it and see if I can get it to work.

Interesting observation tonight - while playing my horns track with kontakt loaded I noticed some of the notes were dropping off early and some not played at all. The more times I listened to the track, these dropouts seemed to lessen until they are gone. Maybe Kontakt need a couple of iterations before rendering properly?
Bernie

To me that's a sign of a resource hungry app.
Apparently, after it caches it a few times (a little more each time it plays) it runs smoothly.
Prior, it may be exhausting your system and simply dropping things to keep up.

'Resource hungry' is a relative thing.
If an app needs X amount of free RAM to run, and you offer it W (less), then it may make sacrifices to keep up.
That's my first inclination to look at. What are system specs for that computer?

/The RAM example above could also be caused by CPU, drive speed, network activity and a bunch of other things that could make this issue occur. Hard to say without deeper investigation/

Bernier,

Did you get jBridge from PG Music or from the jBridge website? When jBridge was first implemented with PG Music products, you had to use a specific version of jBridge and had to get jBridge from PG Music.

I believe the current version of jBrisge includes the PG Music specific enhancements but do not know that for sure. You may want to try the version provided through PG Music.

I think you're right on the money. Last might while using PT with Kontakt loaded I got a popup message from Norton that said there was a clocking issue that it fixed. I think I'm going to have to look at how I can unload as much as possible before loading PT. I have used msconfig to load as few startup items as possible. Or maybe it's just time to bite the bullet and buy a new system....

Hi Jim - I got the most recent version from the jbridge web site. My original was through pgmusic. I guess I'll go to pgmusic and download it there. I did pay for my first download.

Bernier,

It could also be that Norton is double-checking everything that Kontakt does. I have no experience with Norton, but I'd see if it's possible to exclude the antivirus software from checking the Kontakt related folders and the PTPA folder (and subfolders).

I run Avast! and have all the folders of my music programs excluded so that they are not being continually checked every time a I run something.

Regards,
Noel

Norton alone can ruin a music system.
It isn't friendly to what we do. If you are in a business environment it may have value, but it can be pretty aggressive in a DAW setting.
Try disabling it for a few and see what happens in PT.

Me too...

Disabled Norton and saved the midi track from PT with Kontakt horns to a wav file. Still drop outs and missed notes.

A couple of thoughts Bernie concerning the Kontakt app itself:

1. Open the app and look along the top row for the little gear icon
2. Open that and go down to the second option: Engine
3. Take a look at the section labelled: CPU Overload Protection by killing voices...mine is set for disabled
4. When you bring up Session Horns, take a look at the second line where it has "Voices" and "Max". What is "Max" set at? Mine is at 64.

Jeff

Hi thanks for the advice. Cpu overload protection is off. Max was at 128, changed it to 64. Same issues - dropped notes in audio track created from midi horn track, and wav file I created is silent. Bernie

Bernie,

Have you been running Powertrack with ASIO or MME? For sake of getting things up and running, it would be best to have MME set up at the moment because it interfaces generally more comfortably with PG Music programs (image below).

Also, what midi channel are you running Kontakt on?

Bernie,

Here's an article regarding horns and dropping out in Cubase. It might have some useful information for you.

https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/session-horns-pro-dropping-out-in-cubase.230431/

Also, the below tutorial is mentioned in the above article. This tutorial talks about DFD mode versus Sampler mode. Are you running in 'direct from disk' (DFD)? This sounds like it might be a source of potential issues.

https://www.adsrsounds.com/kontakt-tutorials/how-to-use-and-optimize-kontakt-dfd/

Noel

I'm in ASIO. I read ASIO Is much superior to MME. However, I'll try MME and see what happens. Running Kontakt on channel 0.
Bernie

Bernie -

FYI, I took a look at your SEQ file this weekend and did discover some of the same anomalies you are experiencing. Definitely something that PGMusic probably should look at. I'll write it up later (and some of it I believe I've reported before, so maybe time to revisit).

I also noticed some changes that I would recommend in your workflow as you work towards creating the SEQ file which I think will help you out; I'll document it and pass it along to you.

I'll need a few days, however, but I'll get back to you with examples and suggestions.

As always, thanks so much for your time and expertise! I did send the file to pgmusic about a month ago. I inquired yesterday and they said they are very busy because of the new release of pt. I guess I'll just have to wait.
Thanks again - Bernie

Bernie, from your Chicago transcription thread, just a reminder: I'm still waiting to get your .SEQ file so I can hear what you hear.

No more out of memory messages....!

That's great news, Bernie.

How did you solve it?

It's worth letting others know as there is a great deal of valuable information in this thread and the journey you've been taken on is bound to be useful to some users in the future.

I set up a new user on my Pc and just loaded what I need to make music!

I'm glad my idea worked out.

I did switch to MME and the midi track did convert to audio. Not as many notes dropped out, but I still did have dropouts.
Bernie

Bernie,

Just to clarify... ASIO is not better than MME from a sound perspective. The final sound that comes from the speakers is the same in both cases. Where ASIO is better than MME is that it reduces latency when recording external input (such as a guitar, vocals, keyboard, etc.). If you are not recording external input, MME is fine (it's what I use all the time).

Also, when did you last defrag your hard disk (assuming it's not a solid state disk)? If it's been sometime, it might be worthwhile leaving it running one night. A couple of years ago, I defragged my hard drive after about 2 years of not doing so and I was surprised by how much the performance improved.

Regards,
Noel

Thanks again Noel for all of your help. I did defrag just recently.
Bernie

Getting out of memory messages again - frustrating to the max!,

If all these suggestions haven't helped, I'm starting to suspect a memory leak.

What interface and Drivers do you have selected in PT? (include driver version if you can)

Are updated drivers available?

Redownloaded Kontakt. Noted where the 64 bit VSTi are located. Then Logged on as different user. Disabled Norton (along with wifi). Launched jBridge. Opened Power Tracks. Went to the midi horns track. Added Kontakt with 64 bit dlls. Loaded fine. Did some work on the song, no out of memory errors! Now if I can just get the horns track to render to audio!
Do I have to launch jBridge each time I boot up?
Thanks!

What changes in my workflow would you suggest? Thanks! Bernie

In PGMusic products, if you are using the version of JBridge that came from them, you probably don't need to launch JBridge first. It should launch itself when needed behind the scenes (at least in my experience).

Bernie,

I don't know if this has been suggested. In case it has not...

1. Start Powertracks and load the songfile and Kontakt.

2. Open Windows Task Manager. Click on the 'Processes' tab (#1 on image).

3. Set Powertracks playing and have a look at how much CPU (#2) is being used. It's also possible to check memory (#3).

This will help give some insight into what's happening.

Let us know the results.

Regards,
Noel

Thanks - I checked today, and the memory rarely went over 35% – the cpu even less.
I'm not getting any more out of memory errors so I must have something set right!
Thanks again!
Bernie

Thanks Rharv - fired up today and everything seemed to work fine so jbridge is automatic.
Bernie

Yep, jbridge is automatic and designed to be so for PGMusic products (BIAB/RealBand/PowerTracks), as well as other DAWs. You just have to make sure you install the purchased version (that you receive via email from J), not the downloadable demo version.

One thing that trips some folks up is that in BIAB/RealBand/PowerTracks you can only have one version of the plugin loaded (and unfortunately the program doesn't indicate whether it's the 64-bit or the 32-bit version - maybe that's something for the wishlist). So if you have Kontakt 32-bit loaded, you have to unload it to load the Kontakt 64-bit.

However, if you load the actual VSTi (Kontakt, for example) interface screen, that should tell you which one is loaded.

The only time you need to run the jbridger utility is for DAWs that don't natively support jbridge. Jbridge, then provides a wrapper to the VST/VSTi and presents it to the DAW in whatever format it's expecting it (so on a 32-bit DAW, it will see the VST/VSTi as 32-bit, even though jbridge is pointing to the 64-bit version). But with programs like those from PGMusic, you don't have to do that because it's included internally.