Honestly, this is absolutely baffling me and getting me so irritated! For example, I type in "A b9" (an obvious guess, one would think) and what do I get, I get a %$#%$!! A flat, with a regular 9th!
I've looked through that way overlong & cumbersome pulldown menu in the Chord Builder, and so far haven't found a single case of flat 9 to pick, so any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

You got to tell it more.

A7b9 would be dominate, or
Amaj7b9

I think?

That seems probable and amongst the many combos with a flat 9 I did spot a 7b9, sure, but I only want the flat 9...and I can't seem to figure out how to input it! I would have thought just typing "b9" with your chord would do it, like I said, but apparently not.
I'm starting to think it's simply not an option they considered

Actually, what I'm really looking for is in fact a "dimsus" chord, but that's obviously too rare for BBox (I had never herd of it either until last week!). When I played the notes on my old keyboard, its "chord indicator" feature displayed it as the relative IV with a flat 9 added, which I thought would be easier to find...

If you just typed Cb9, it would think it's a variation of a C-flat chord. And unfortunately, BIAB doesn't support typing C9b, such as it does for C5b (to avoid confusion with a C-flat 5). I think the closest you'll get is a C7b9 (which you already discovered). Maybe that should be a wishlist item, although at this point, I doubt you'll get any RealTracks to play it; it would be MIDI only.

Indeed. I did consider going straight to the Wishlist with this one, but just to cover myself decided to at least check here in case I had overlooked something.

The only way that I know off to get an Aaddb9 chord is A/Bb. That will give you A-C#-E-Bb but probably not in the inversion that you want.

In BIAB go to Help-Index-type in Chord-then click on Chord List. All of BIAB's chords are there.

I hadn't thought of that, so that may be one way (with the snag you already spotted tough, but still), thanks for the idea.
What complicates the matter in this particular case is that my desired root note is neither the root note of the I-chord, nor of the 9th like your suggestion, but of its relative IV, as I mentioned.

Its a tricky situation indeed

p.s. Is it possible that a "dimsus" chord may be known under another name? I'm wondering if that alternative is in the pulldown and my limited chord knowledge just isn't recognising it as the same chord...grasping straws here, I know.

Thanks, shall look into that next.

Update: Did this and "Chord List" doesn't come up as available topic, so I can't "click on" something that's not there

My post was made after checking the chord list, as well. It just doesn't do what you are looking for.

Update #2: Found the Chord List on here instead of the program, the chord I'm looking for isn't listed, or at least not by the only two names I know it. Which brings me to what should perhaps have been my question all along: Does anyone recognise the chord with the following notes, and if so then by what name(s)?

The notes are: I - IV - bV - VI (or in key of C: C - F - Gb - A).

IF you are working with MIDI you can arrange the notes in any version that you like. This is one of the reasons I work a lot in MIDI. If you are working with RTs then you are at the mercy of the program.

Not in BIAB.


I sure don't. Do you have a musical example? And if so, is it by chance played by a guitar where not all the notes in the chord are being played? And where does b9 come in?

Matt, it looks to me that we've changed from an A(b9) chord to an F(b9) chord with a C bass note.

So the F(b9) chord would be F - A - C - Gb, but with the C on the bottom and then then notes played more like a flat-2 than a flat-9: F - Gb - A.

But I think what he probably really wants is a dim7sus, which is not supported (and which I have not heard of before). That would seem to result in C - F - Gb - A (The dim7 chord would be C - Eb - Gb - A, but the 4 (F) would substitute for the 3rd, so that's where you get the F and end up with C - F - Gb - A). But I feel like I'm making stuff up now.

But Icelander would have to properly clarify.

I would probably enter an F7b9/C, and if you don't like the Eb in the chord (assuming MIDI), just freeze the track and edit it out). Or enter it as Cdim7 (and again, freeze the track and change the Eb to an F).

One of the ways those notes could be in a chord would be over a D bass, making it a D7#9

No, you're not "making stuff up", you've absolutely nailed what I'm after right there, a "dimsus"!
I too only saw this "dimsus" thing for the first time myself last week, on the choir sheet I've been asked to make backing tracks for. When I then came up short in BBox, I resorted to looking at the notes being sung in that particular bar, and they were those four notes I listed above. My old auto-accompaniment keyboard listed those four notes as a flat 9 added to the F major, hence my initial question as I thought finding that would be easier...but apparently not.

So now we 'only' need to figure out how the heck I'm actually gonna do it

Gbm[maj7]b5

Well if that is an actual chord, that could be what you call it.

I hadn't thought of it this way, thanks

Eddy,

What are the two chords before and the two chords after the above chord. Also, is it possible to show us how they are voiced in the music (an image of that section of the score would help)? This will allow us to see the context of the harmony and would assist a great deal when suggesting a possible resolution for the issue.

Regards,
Noel

Certainly, I was considering that myself, you just beat me to it. The actual score is in the key of B flat but I thought it would be simpler to set the example to the C key like keyboard players often do. This chord occurs only once, as a part of the intro of the piece, As you can see, it has much the hallmarks of a sus chord, e.g. doesn't linger and quickly resolves onto the dim. Anyway, here you go:

Your first chord could be written as BbdimMaj7.

Thanks, Eddy. That's interesting. How I see the music is...

1. Use of a pedal point Bb in the first three bars.

2. The A note in the soprano, bar 1, looks like it's a prepared dissonance since it initially occurs as a consonance that's carried over from the anacrusis.

I see the first chord as Bbmb5 (Bbdim triad) with the A as a dissonance (as mentioned above) that resolves to the G in the following bar. Diminished triads are supported in BIAB. If you have it set up, you can simply type Xdim, otherwise use Xdim5. (It's under Display Options.)



Because of the pedal point, it's also possible that Bb in the bass is the dissonance that resolves downwards to A in bar 4. A diminished chord is not a usual way to begin pedal point but, if it works, it works.

Possible chord progressions that I'd try...

If Bb (bass) is treated as the dissonance and the Db is treated as C#, it's enharmonic equivalent..

ONE
A/Bb - Dbdim/Bb - Cm/Bb - F7/A

If A (soprano) is treated as the dissonance, then...

TWO
Bbdim (triad) - Bbdim (triad) - Cm/Bb - F7/A

To get the best pedalpoint effect for the above, it would be possible to use "Chord Settings / Pedal Bass".

(Alternatively, try Bbdim - Dbdim/Bb - Cm/Bb - F7/A.)

I suspect that the first option under "TWO" will work best. I wouldn't worry about the soprano notes (A and then G) because these are melody and will either be sung or played and, when that happens, they will provide the required harmonic sound. I suspect that Bbdim will provide sufficient textural backing for the first two bars.

...MGU file with my suggestion


In both cases, I'd use Cm/Bb and not Cm7/Bb since the second option would double the 7th and this would most likely sound overdone.

That's just my take on it... it will be interesting to see what others say.

Regards,
Noel

Ok, I feel rather foolish now, for having completely missed the obvious choice - utilise the sung melody!
What makes this even more embarrassing for me is that I myself have done just that in my own work, more than once. Heck, one prime case sample is even on here already in my "Bouncing" piece!!

Thanks so much for helping me see the light, everyone, Noel in particular. With your excellent inputs I think I can take it from here

This to me was the "Lights on!" part of your feedback beyond anything! I'm still kicking myself for missing what now seems so obvious. By leaving it up to the melody to create that tension, you've saved me a great deal of headache. Btw, the soprano A->G is definitely the focal point of the melody, since in Icelandic the accent of every word is always on the first syllable. So makes even more sense that the melody should be allowed to take care of that bit.
I'm actually now leaning towards not following the pedal point(s) of the vocals (see reasoning re the soprano above) and just suffice with it 'as is' in the vocals, so we get something like

Bbdim (triad) - Edim7 - Cm7 - F7

This to me creates a more varied bass movement in the band, followed by the (to me) desirable IIm7-V7 resolution at the end leading nicely into the first chord of the verse (which starts with a Bb chord).

Hi Eddy,

There's nothing to feel embarrassed about. I often find that what seems obvious at the end of a learning journey was anything but obvious at the journey's start. We have a saying in English (not sure if you've come across it) that goes something like "Can't see the forest for the trees". It's a result of being human, I think.

I'm glad my thoughts helped.

Because pedal point can occur in any voice, by using a different bass line in the arrangement and leaving the pedal point to the choir voices since it is at the higher end of the register, I suspect you'll add an extra layer of harmonic interest.

Personally, I think this thread is a great post on the forum because the principles it contains will be valuable to many people.

All the best,
Noel

That was one of the reasons I tried to initially avoid making this thread too "case specific", so that it could be applied to other scenarios/users.
Though I also have to say somewhat doubt there are many on here who get as enthusiastic over music theory (or are indeed as knowledgeable!) as yourself. I myself must confess to looking up quite a bulk of your musical vocabulary there!

But yes, for me this definitely has been a valuable thread, so thank you once again to all who contributed

Guys, I really hate sounding like the hall monitor but this is not a forum for questions. Just steer a post with a question like this to the appropriate forum.

I keep going back to basics. Remember when Peter first created this forum with some fanfare several years ago? It was because we all wanted one place where good suggestions (Tips) and very clever workarounds of certain problems (Tricks) could be placed. Most of us agreed with this idea and agreed to keep the questions out of this forum. Now this forum is getting all cluttered up with questions again and Peter might as well shut it down and move everything to the Biab forum.

Icelander, with 875 posts you're not a nooby here, don't you get the point of this? Tip's and Tricks means this is where you post cool stuff that might help others, not questions.

Bob

I feel I'm being undeservedly put under scrutiny here, so must make a few points to this surprising - and rather belated, I might add! - "observation" to what I considered to be a well concluded (read:finished) thread, so here goes:

1. The final post I made to this thread was about a week ago, this topic was closed, at least on my part. and I was under the honest believe that my last entry had made this abundantly clear.

2.This thread wasn't just over & finished, it was so quite successfully too, as it brought on quite a few TIPS on how to deal with a particular issue, which in return were tremendously HELPFUL - and if that isn't the important part to consider when evaluating its merits (which I don't recall having been asked for), then I don't know what is. Then again, and leading up to...

3. - NO!! I wasn't on here "several years ago", thank you very much, Mr. Presumptuous! Just because I may have been quite active on some sections of the Forum, is no grounds to jump to the 'conclusion' that I 'ought' to have intricate knowledge of all of them and their backstory. It so happens that this is my very first thread in this particular section, if that even matters.

And - just because your 'righteous' tone pissed me off - one final point:

4.Really!? Well, you sure had me fooled there. It's funny how people can so severely contradict their own 'graceful' statement with just the single use of the word "but", innit

Perhaps it will be help to read the sticky, "FAQ and posting information for the Tips and Tricks forum".

Eddy,

Don't worry about it. Personally, I think that this thread contains many tips and tricks on how one goes about creating chords that are not contained in BIAB's vocabulary.

If the PG Music team don't see that this thread is properly located here, they'll move it to the forum that they feel more appropriate. At the end of the day, where a post ultimately resides is always PG Music's call.

All the best,
Noel

Et tú, Brute?
Now, this was indeed an unexpected curveball, Mr. Finley. And you actually participated in the discussion of this thread, not a peep of objections then

Anyone else wanna jump on the wagon, while it's gaining such wonderful momentum?! I'M RIGHT HERE!!

THANK YOU!
If only I had seen this reply of support before I made my reply to Mr. Finley

I couldn't find that info.??

DE

DE, it is the post by Peter Gannon directly above this one in the Tips and Tricks Forum. Dr. Gannon describes what the expectations are for this forum.

Icelander, please.

How should I or anybody say this without pissing you off, eh?

I guess you never bothered to read the forum FAQs? You really think the moderators and in this case, Peter himself, put those FAQ's up there just because they look good but he doesn't expect anybody to read it?

From Peters last paragraph in his FAQ:

Please note: Posts that are not tips-and-tricks (for example posts with questions on using the program) should be posted in the general forum for Band-in-a-Box or RealBand, and will be moved there if posted here.

Is this really that difficult to understand?

The correct response from you should have been oh, I didn't realize that. I guess I should have read the FAQ. That's it, everything's fine, no problem. But what did you do? Jump all over me. Why? All I did was point out the obvious. Not cool man.

We all try to be understanding about things like this which is why I haven't said anything about questions in the Tips and Tricks forum for probably a year. You won the lotto I guess.

Finally, yes this is a perfectly legitimate discussion, good info here too. It's just in the wrong forum.

Bob