My REAL:BAND 2017 build 7 Midi Nightmare HELP

Well I decided to extend one of my BIAB MGU Songs with some extra tracks as I had used up the melody and soloist track.
I thought I would use Real Band to copy the melody track a couple of times and re voice and edit notes as required done this many times in Sona no probs.

So first mistake I saved the BIAB file as a midi I thought well that’s what I will be working on, and may want to take it to another daw at some time so lets get into midi.

Although this worked fine when opened in Real band I soon learnt that it would have been better to open the original MGU this would then automatically make a SEQ file.
As saving a midi file as a midi file, in RealBand did not save things like track names patch names and ch Numbers and mixer changes, where as a SEQ file did, on my extra tracks .
Found a post from John that helped with this, and his advice was to work as SEQ then save as seq and midi.

However it still did not save the CH number until I found this tip in QA section
Quote
“21. When I save my files, the MIDI patch/channel information in the tracks window is not saved properly.
In the Options | Preferences | Files dialog, look for the setting "Don't save forced Ch META event in .MID files". When checked (enabled), this setting overrides the forced MIDI channel settings in the Tracks Window, and the forced channels won't be recalled the next time the file is loaded. This prevents RealBand from saving the forced MIDI channels in the Tracks Window into .MID files. This META event is only recognized by PG Music programs.
If you want the forced channels to be recalled when you open the file with RealBand, disable this setting. If you are saving to a MIDI file and the patch info isn't saving properly, enable this setting, and use the Edit | Rechannel All Tracks command to convert the actual MIDI data in the tracks to the forced channel so that a forced channel isn't needed.”
Hmm one more step on the road
I might add here that if you say copy the melody track to another midi track it inherits the channel number of the melody or parent track that it was copied from so you must change this to an unused CH No on the new track.

I found the Classic track view most helpful to see exactly what was going on in a track at a glance

Still at least it saves the CH No now,
But it still wont save more importantly, CHANGES I MAKE IN THE MIXER to my new tracks or any other tracks if I save as midi only gets saved in SEQ save.
Any thoughts on this one would be appreciated.
Mike

A. I try to remember to use Edit-MIDI-Rechannel Track (or close)
The Classic window is handy, but it's still possible to not get the MIDI channel saved for a track if you 'force' it in RB. Best to manually write the data to the new channel so all other software sees it that way. You'll see it in the Event List this way.

B. Mixer moves:
I often use the Edit-MIDI-Fill command to move a volume from one setting to another. This makes a smooth change and again hard writes it in a standard format most other software will be respond to. Again you'll see it in the Event List for the track, so it's rght there.
If I recall, mixer moves may be written to different tracks than the track you are moving the slider for in real-time. This has benefits and drawbacks.

I really don't save as MIDI format very much anymore, so these are just things I remember, more than use daily.

HI

Yes thanks for the tips on all of that appreciate you time.

It a shame that silly things like this save as midi don’t work smoothly in RB .
The very essence of a daw in my opinion is to save good midi.

I can see no good reason why the Realband midi track volumes do not get saved in a midi file. The mixer works and you can see the midi values change in track view as well as hear them SO WHY not, they save ok in a seq file

This sort of quirky behaviour will stop me using RB!!

I really should not have to go from BIAB TO RB then to Sona to do the mix.
I might as well save my BIAB file as midi and gone to Sona in the first place..
This is a shame as I quite like the feel and operation of a lot of Realband

Not a happy bunny
Mike

Hi again
Bit of extra info not that it helps much
The Real band mixer volume setting do not get written into the midi events list .
This is true even in a seq file
The difference is when recalled as a seq file they are effective. so they must be being written somewhere as the mixer jumps strait to the right settings on loading the file.
One thing is for sure they wont save as a midi file if not inserted into the events list.
Very strange behaviour
Such a basic thing I cant believe its gone unnoticed all this time
Maybe the programmer needs to have a look.
Mike

Hi All

Well at last I have cracked it:::
I found the insert button at the bottom of the mixer.
This inserts a snapshot of the mixer settings pan vol etc into the events list at the current cursor track time position.
So be careful to rewind to the start if you are setting your overall starting mix.
After that you can insert new snapshots for other parts of the song later in time.

I can see why it was done this way to prevent you inserting volume changes made while playing by saving and forgetting to rewind the file to start.

Even so a warning would have been nice to say mixer values not saved as midi events unless you take a snapshot..
Hope this helps someone in the future

Mike

Good tip to know, Mike. That's one I missed.

HI ALL UPDATE

Well another brick in the wall today .
In my bid to use Realband as a normal midi DAW.

I discovered two check boxes in the Options / Preferences / File

Don’t save forced mid ch meta event in midi file

Automatically re channel track data when saving to midi

That makes things behave much better.

Midi guitar users probably will not want to do this as specific tracks / channels are saved for each string. So channels would need stay the same.
Also if you intend taking the file back to BIAB it would expect to see the normal channels used in a BIAB song .

But for working with normal midi that you may want to move on to another DAW
They are useful options.
My practise with midi has always been as far as possible to match the track number with the channel number so one of the first things I do when getting a BIAB file into RB or any other DAW is to move the Drums from track 2 ch10 to track 10 ch 10
Just my way!

Hope this helps someone
Mike

Mike,

I'm pretty sure Band-in-a-Box styles uses midi channels 11 to 16 for the individual guitar string input / outputs when the "Write guitar part in six channels" option is selected in the Midi File Options screen.

HI JIM

Thanks for that info .
Well that would be as per normal midi guitar parts recorded live from a midi guitar .

This is why I said that allowing re channel and not forced channels in Real Band may cause problems for midi guitar users ,
I am sure I read a post from Peter G. once on this and believe he said that is why it was made an option in Realband and not the default midi save behaviour.

Still it good for me trying to save standard midi files the way I like them.
Getting there slowly, having sorted that and saving the Realband mixer settings
with snapshot.
Mike

I don't remember where the option is at but there is another option someplace in BiaB to change the guitar channels from 11 - 16 to 1 - 6 for times when there is a channel conflict.

Hi Jim
Yes I think I saw that once

It must be a nightmare to write a programme that is all things to all people.
So I guess it down to the user to check
Especially if trying to maintain compatibility between to progs .

BIAB uses certain channels for certain jobs. and those channels are maintained if you say open a MGU in Real band, as by default Realband will reserve the first tracks with the right channels as used in BIAB.and designate these as BIAB tracks..
Ch 2-3-10 -7-6-4-8-5

The tricky bit comes when you start adding more midi tracks as you have to find unused channel.
Assuming no midi guitar this leaves you with a bit of a hotch potch selection
Ch 1 -9 -11-12-13-14-15-16.

This is why if I don’t intend to go back to BIAB I make all tracks normal tracks and re Channel my way.. It was then a case of finding a way of saving those changes when saving as a midi file.
Still all sorted now.
And thank you for your interest,
Mike