Replacing Sonar? as most would be aware Sonar (or more correctly, Cakewalk) are now defunct and in time Sonar will probs cease to run as efficiently (or at all ??) so as a replacement do current RB users think RB can be a suitable replacement? If so, why?

Not looking for an argument, merely for thoughts on it. I have been looking at a few and the closest is Cubase but at nearly $600 (AUD) and that's "cross-grade" price it is way out of my financial league!

All comments appreciated

joden, this question is very hard to answer. For some RB is all they need while for others it is not.

For the price RB is an excellent DAW however it lacks a lot of the functions and ease of use when compared to any high priced DAW, IMHO.

I went from Sonar to Studio One Pro when the upgrade was offered. I believe the Sonar crossover is still offered at $199 USD. I found that both DAWs fit my workflow very nicely.

One of my biggest problems with RB and BiaB is that it is only 32 bit. These are the only 32 bit programs I have on my 64 bit system. I know there are workarounds using jBridge but nothing beats a DAW that uses 64 bit VSTis and VSTs natively, again IMHO.

If you have Sonar then check if the crossover deals are still available.

Note that I always have said if you have a favorite DAW then use it but if you don't then use RB.

The above opinions are mine and many may not agree.

Thanks Mario. I did have a cursory look at Studio One, but it may bear another one. I thought I had read somewhere that its MIDI implementation was not as complete as others.

I have been a Sonar user for many years. I understand it well and have many, many plugins. The good thing is some of them work with BIAB and RB. As for ease of use I don't think RB is in the same league as Sonar nor is it designed to be. I don't know what to use as a replacement and then what happens if or when my Sonar replacement stops being supported. For me I think I'll stay with Sonar until it goes belly up. I think understanding what you want out of a DAW will help a lot if and when I change. Most DAWs seem to operate in a similar way. The bits of Sonar I will miss most will be ProChannel and the ease of use of the Piano Roll. The RB Piano Roll seems much more difficult to me but I guess that is understanding the product. As for what I do in Pro Channel I could if necessary even do in Audacity just not as easily. In the mean time I will continue to look at other products after all I only do any of this stuff for fun and will have time to change unlike some who make a living out of creating music files.

My thoughts

Tony.

The MIDI implementation is not as good as Sonar's was but it is usable. As you know I work virtually entirely in MIDI and I can get things done, however I do miss some of the more advanced MIDI features of Sonar. There are a number of videos and blogs about the differences and similarities between the two DAWs. The biggest problems I have are the technical terms are different and the shortcut keys are very different, but I'm getting the hand of it. It's a learning curve, at least for me as I have many years of Cakewalk under my belt.

As many Sonar users are now using Studio One a lot of MIDI suggestions have been made so hopefully some of them will get implemented in the next upgrade.

Another option I've been spending time with lately is Reaper.
Again, there is a learning curve, but plenty of videos documentation to get you started.

The options can become complex, for example, using other Themes can alter the whole workflow, not just the look, so I'd suggest starting with the basic look/feel. Then watch the training videos from the Reaper website (which were well organized IMO) and tinker a bit.

Their site URL is a little weird .. reaper.fm
But it is $60 and does a whole lot.

Coolio, thanks Rharv I'll have a closer look
@Mario , yeah perhaps with nore and more CW folks on the Studio One forums it might make it less "painfull" haha

I make a $1000 a week with my RB solo show.
You're getting bogged down with features you don't use in the big box progs.

Mario, I read similar statements a lot. If this is actually true, fine but if it's not then you're implying there's a problem using RB and JBridge. According to Dr. Gannon himself, there is NO DIFFERENCE between using Biab/RB with JBridge and a 64 bit plug and using a 64 bit program natively. My question to you is this: Did you actually use RB/JBridge and your 64 bit plugs and run into problems? If so what problems and did you post questions here so we can figure it out? Please spell out exactly why you think it's a bad idea to use Biab/RB with JBridge. If there really is a problem then we need to know about it.

My next point is similar but it concerns midi. Have you spent serious time working with midi in RB? I agree RB may not be as good with midi as other DAW's but "not as good" is a relative term. It depends on just how knowledgeable the user is concerning midi and what they're trying to do with it. I work with midi a lot in RB and find it acceptable and certainly the price is right. I would not be surprised if a user who understands midi were to test various midi functions and it turns out RB is better with midi than Studio One for example.

Bob

Yes Bob I did have trouble using Kontakt in BiaB but because I use my DAW, first Sonar and now Studio One Pro, for MIDI work I did not pursue the issue. I would be a happy camper if BiaB/RB were 64 bit so I could natively drop all of my 64 bit plug-ins, both VST and VSTi, into them. IMHO if BiaB and RB don't go to 64 bit soon they will a thing of the past much like 8 and 16 bit programs.

I tried RB but I found it very clunky. I know that I am biased as I used Cakewalk for years. Now I use Studio One Pro, another very easy to use DAW. However if you remember I have stated many times that if you do not have a favorite DAW then use RB.

I have shown BiaB to other musicians and there responses were the same, i.e. clunky interface and only 32 bit. They over looked how good the program really is! I am not that biased. Yes I am a firm believer that BiaB and RB should be 64 bit but that is not stopping me from using them. As I have stated before they are the only two 32 bit programs on my system.

I know that your views are different then mine about 64 bit but we both respect each others views and that is a good thing.

I cannot believe there is even an on-going conversation about whether 64 bit is necessary in a 2018 Windows program! I guarantee this conversation is not going on in any other modern software forum because 64 bit is the standard and 32 bit is now way out of date! Can you fix up a work-around? Yep and PGM has done a good job of using JBridge to do just that. It it a long-term solution? Nope!

And to answer the original poster's question, RealBand is not a suitable replacement to any modern DAW. Every modern DAW out there will have a better GUI and significant advantages in functionality and workflow over RB. I am certain no one would ever choose RB over other DAWs were it not for the fact that it can access the RealTracks and comes included at no extra charge when you purchase BIAB. And for some people those two reasons are good enough.

I have tried multiple times to use RB and have finally given up in frustration. It is clunky and slow and does not even come close to the usability of the other modern DAWs out there. I occasionally will still use RB if I cannot get what I want in RealTracks using BIAB but even then I use it for that single purpose, export the generated tracks and do my mixing in a serious DAW. I have used several different DAWs and a plethora of software programs all the way back to DOS 1.0 so I have seen lots of great interfaces and tons of poor ones!

Regarding the cost point that folks love to bring up, "RB is free!". Yeah, so is Windows Notepad but I prefer Word for serious text editing! And, while I am not familiar with pricing on all of the modern DAWs, I will point out Reaper is $60 and you only pay that after you have determined you like it because the full-featured trial runs indefinitely!

My advice to anyone using BIAB is simple. If you have a favorite DAW then keep it and use RB as needed to access those amazing RealTracks but use your DAW for mixing. If you don't have a favorite DAW then get one such as Reaper and use RB to access RealTracks as needed.

With all that said I acknowledge there are people here who say RB satisfies their needs in a DAW. I cannot personally imagine such a thing but...

First, this is just me rambling but there are lots of alternatives to SONAR and RB - and folks will have their favorites so you will end up with a laundry list in the end. YOU need to TRY as many as you can for free and see what you like and almost all have a FREE trial versions.

Second, SONAR STILL WORKS. IT WILL CONTINUE TO WORK until Microsoft pushes a WIN 10 add, modify, or delete update (e.g, some audio/communication or other API a DLL, etc.) that makes a portion or Sonar "inop." THIS is coming from a ex-SPLAT lifetime user (me, and actually a Cakewalk DAW users since version 2 for DOS) who walked away from SONAR a full YEAR before they folded up their tent for personal (and some minor technical) reasons.


Finally, you have LOTS of time to test drive other DAWS and see for yourself:

1. Starting with a simpler SONAR – Sonar Home Studio, Sonar Home Studio, the successor to Music Creator, is FREE. You do need to create and account if you don't have one. This offer still works I just tried it using a junk email account or use your EXISTING Cakewalk account)

http://www.cakewalk.com/Redeem?kl=16&promo=CM250

use redemption code 3327-46FD-8F9A-BBC7

2. Like MarioD lots of users have moved on to Studio One Pro as a cross grade (especially when price was $149 which is when I bought it this last winter) if you look hard you might still find a deal for under $200) .

EDIT

FLASH UPDATE sale:

you can get a crossgrade to Studio One Pro for $169 at JRR shop. it says $199 but when you add to cart they discount it down to $169

https://www.jrrshop.com/presonus-studio-one-professional-crossgrade-v3

EDIT OVER

3. You can STILL GET the Samplitude Pro X3 suite (Samplitude Pro, plus, Soundforge plus Spectralayers deal for $149)

https://www.magix.com/index.php?id=24739&L=52&phash=9wsnAiYJ77GWu8YE&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_content=spsut&utm_campaign=US_48_spsut


4. Then there is FL studio Producer $199 it's a LIFETIME thing too - you buy once and get ALL updates forever. They have a trial version

5. Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio - they have a 14 day trial and the pro version has a nice collection VSTi’s

6. Reaper for $60 and you can try it for free for month or two I forget before you are morally bound to buy it not abuse the Free use of it.

7. Then there is FREE Tracktion 6, completely free and is a NO BS FULL FLEDGED DAW. Or try there more current Traction Waveform 9 - it has a 30 day trial.

8. Mixcraft Pro 8 - it has a 14 day trial.

IMHO Mixcraft is probably the easiest and most intuitive to get going with MIDI and even simple audio. FL Studio Piano roll is great, etc. Studio one Pro and Tracktion take some getting use to. Samplitude is a whole other animal as is FL studio - neither is intuitive but they are power packed and lots of features once you know "how to." A lot of folks love Reaper but I find its MIDI the LEAST intuitive to use but I haven't played with it in last two years even though I own it so it may be great now.

I have ALL they above in addition to SPLAT, which I do not use anymore. BUT I still haven’t pick a final one stop shop final DAW (this after MORE than a year). I’m actually starting to become a two DAW user – why limit yourself to ONE DAW that does GREAT AUDIO and MIXING but so MIDI and interconnections or one that has all the flex of full computer interfacing and interconnections and great MIDI but – AUDIO while it works is PITA to use and mix with.

I do not find jumping between two DAW’s any more “taxing” or causing psychotic work flow “interruptius” than when you have to do workarounds in any single DAW for that DAW's shortfalls or quirks (I even had to do that towards the last few versions of SONAR).

IMHO Cakewalk’s MIDI had become a PITA. The last user friendly and good Cakewalk MIDI DAW was Cakewalk Pro Audio version 9! After that they left MIDI in the dust and focused on AUDIO only - for ALL versions of SONAR. I AM HEAVY MIDI user (MIDI geek) it's most of my work. I don't get into a pretentious producer mindset of pretending that I run "a pro studio" and a premier "mastering house."

Then there are OTHER DAWS Pro Tools (Eddie loves it), Cubase I have a love-hate with Steinberg and Cubase, ..

https://www.musicianonamission.com/best-daw-2016/

Good luck

Larry

As far as RealBand being a contender for a DAW I think it is not really trying to be. The way I see it RealBand has its uses and does stuff that many DAWs do not but then most DAWs make many tasks simpler than RealBand. As far as Sonar goes I agree it should be sometime before issues will stop it working. I decided to download Reaper to have a look and after a week or so parted with the US$60 (A$87 including GST). I feel that Reaper should be able to do much of what I want and have in a week set up things that will allow me to work in pretty much a fashion that I am familiar with. There will be some cussing but that is a part of the fun. A lot of the more expensive plugins and VSTs I am used to in Sonar work in Reaper and using ReaCWP I can even open a number of my Cakewalk projects (some with errors depending on plugins used). Over the years I spent a small fortune on Sonar updating every year, buying extra plugins etc. I don't see myself doing that in the future.

My rant Tony

I actually bounce back and forth between RealBand and MixCraft 8, but at the end of the day MC8 wins out as my main DAW.

RB is really good for working out ideas, and I suppose for light jobs you could use it as your main DAW, but it's not really built for heavy-duty use, although I guess some might beg to differ on that.

Sonar isn't going to stop working. At some point the computer running it will die and if you can't fix it you'll be looking at doing something at that point.

Until that day, I plan on keeping my machine running with Sonar and not worrying. I will be keeping backup files with waves so I can recreate in another DAW if I need to.

Sooo, nobody has any specific issues with Biab/RB not being 64 bit other than simply saying "they SHOULD be!". Correct?

Again, IF YOU HAVE AN ACTUAL ISSUE POST IT. Otherwise I don't think it's fair to keep harping on the 64 bit thing (I mean you JJJ with all of this !!! crap), because to a noob they think they're going to somehow miss something by buying these programs because they're not 64 bit. They're not missing anything unless you can point to a specific problem that Peter can't explain to you.

Your other comments about whether or not RB is a good DAW is perfectly fair all I'm saying is keep the 64 bit comments out of it unless you can prove a 64 bit related problem.

Bob

RB is good for generating lots of Realtracks as others have said but beyond that I think can't be really compared to other DAWs. Ok you can record and finish a song in it, but why bother if you have some other DAW that is better in the editing side.

For example no basic tool kit, (and just curious to find out if others have so much blank space in the mixer windows) this is what I get when I open mixer windows in windows 7. When I queried this I was told that this is a "Feature" well not a feature I particularly want. Compare the mixer page to Cubase mixer as below.

But then RB is free Cubase elements 7 cost me around £80

If I maximize the mixer in RB I get lots of wasted space also.
HTH

I usually just lay it over the Tracks screen (not maximized) so I can switch back and forth, but yes, if I maximize that window here I also see lots of wasted space.
However in your Cubase examples I cannot see any track wave forms, which I am used to seeing in RB, Reaper, and others.

Guess it depends on your workflow.
Cubase does look nice and neat in your examples.

Oh please, jm! There are plenty of reasons/benefits to being 64-bit and just because you can hack a work-around is not a long-term solution! Do you seriously think ALL of the other serious software vendors have converted their programs to 64-bit just because it was a fun thing to do? Nope. They see the future has arrived. In fact, it arrived several years ago!

But yeah, let's talk about why we don't need to catch up with modern standards. What a great game this is! Dunno why anyone needs one of those new-fangled color monitors!

John-Cubed, I used to love that game!!! Of course I had the COLOR version on the Commodore 64. I wasted lots of hours on that one!

I think scaleable graphics would go a long way to improving the interface.

Who needs CGA when you have monochrome green phosphor ? lol

AS ReWire hasn't shown up I think the best solution to all this is JJJ's idea of a VST/AU/AAX version of Biab that works in the DAW of your choice 64bit or and yes, get this, a 32bit DAW !

The other closest option for now is ReWireVST RealBand/PT as the ReWireVST still don't work in in Biab, that's a shame. But at least with Realband you drag out the tracks instantly but Biab you need to go have a cup of tea between drags.

Steve, I did too! I played it on an original IBM-PC! I believe it was magenta, cyan, black & white! Or it could have been red, green, brown & black! So many choices!

This is by far the best solution! They can keep tweaking the old 32-bit GUI for those comfortable with the past and release a VST that lets me bring RealTracks into my DAW directly!

They'd still need a RealTracks manager to do auto-generation as well as riff selection (like Realband). And they'd need a way for me to enter my chords. But other than that I'd guess about 75% of the BIAB features could be just left out completely!

And a RealTracks VST, if done right, is the killer music product of the decade! I mean, c'mon, they must be working on this, right?

I'm betting they will still be releasing 32 bit for brand new quantum computers, so I wouldn't bet on it.

There was a question posted on a forum about what was the best VSTi for guitar, and I wanted to say it was hands down BB/RB in "Vst" mode, but I already knew what the response would be.

You are spot on them not trying to capitalize on their strengths with a RT/BB VST. If properly done that would possibly make them a top dog in the VST world.

Hello marketing where you at?