We have been requesting full VST/VSTi support for the past few years with no response from PG music. Plugins like Waves GTR, NI GTR, Jamstix etc would make the use of Realband (and RealTracks if it is ever re-incarnated) such a pleasure.
The annual December story:
Purchase BiaB/RealBand 2010 - load Realband 2010 with great anticipation - try to load GTR 3 or other VSti - get message saying the plugin cannot load!. Sigh out loud!
This is the annual disappointment played out again!
It it incomprehensible that an arranger/sequencer does not support VST or VSTi in 2010 - it's like making a car and insisting it does not need indicators - i.e just carry on putting your arm out of the window like they did in 1930!
Will be ever see proper VST/VSti support in the PG products?
I have been hoping for this for some time now, and have to suspect it is something in the coding. Any VSTi that needs timing instructions seems to be a problem. This is the only thing keeping me from using PG programs for most of my tracking. I mean i still upgrade, and use them daily, but for finsih products i drop and drag to another program.
Its just a matter of workflow -
1) Band in a Box - 2) Real Band - 3)Reaper
and you can have it all.
It may still happen.
uring the beta we were told by development that the VST/VSTi implementation in RB and PT only *looks* to the user like it is a "wrapper" to DX because of the way the selection is done from the bottom of the DX window.
Development says that they are using true VST implementation protocols, though.
This was indeed brought up during the beta testing -- loudly and longly -- and perhaps we will get to see it yet. Don't know the particulars or why it evidently isn't an easy coding to get it to happen, though.
We're not supposed to reveal beta testing info in public, but in this case I think it is okay to say this much...
--Mac
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Its just a matter of workflow -
1) Band in a Box - 2) Real Band - 3)Reaper
and you can have it all.
Well, this kind of shoots the bragging rights to PG products right in the foot that they are 'economical' do-it-all product line.
I gave up in 2004 with PowerTracksProAudio. That was nearly 6 years ago of development time. My 'economical' upgrades would now be 6x the $29 upgrade price, or $180 just for PTPA alone.
There isn't any other $180 DAW on the market that doesn't support timing references in VST/VSTi.
The price of entry looks attractive for PTPA, and perhaps RB but the feature set once you dive in - can leave one disappointed. I absolutely depend on the timing references for delays, for drumming programs like my Jamstix, for built in arpeggiation and/or modulation effects in VSTi synths, etc.
It appears to me that PG continues to focus on the mindset that most recordists using their programs don't look 'outside' for sound sources. GM Modules and RB tracks are all anyone needs for their products.
Sorry to rant - but this has been an issue for at least 6 years - to add a basic capability that seems that every other respected DAW on the market has in it's basic feature set.
I don't have the data to back this up, but I'm guessing that there's a very limited number of beta testers who use this kind of functionality - the timing references to VST/VSTi - which ends up making it look like a non-issue to PG, or at least a limited issue. Loyal customers will continue to pay for the updates yearly and that fringe that actually uses these features, that use playthrough to plugins and plugins as a composition tool as a must - well they will maybe just go away.
royj, have at it - perhaps I will pass on the mantle to you. Maybe they will listen to you.
I've tired of it. If we could look at the wishlist back 5 years ago, or when we used to use the forum as a wishlist - you would see my posts to your same points. I normally just hang out now on PG because a few of the old-timers here helped me significantly hone my recording chops about 10-13 years ago.
Scott never misses the chance when this is the topic.
Scott-
"but I'm guessing that there's a very limited number of beta testers who use this kind of functionality "
..not a good assumption..
Beta testers do not have the ability to choose features ..
They can only test what they are given
I just want to say i haven't given up hope, and would like to think that this as mac said is on the table. When i started with PG, i used it very little. I have yet to do a full song in PT, and i still track original tunes in MTS after making some of the track beds in BiaB. But i do all backing tracks for live performance in RB now as it allows me to use most of what i want with midi, .kar files, a bit of RTs and RDs, and i can use Jamstix as a drum mod.
But if they could solve the VST1 timing reference issue, that would allow me to use Jamstix and a couple more plugs and would make RB far more useful to me over all. There are a few folks over at the Cakewalk MC forum that have bought the Biab program as well, and they might slowly migrate to RB if it allowed them to use fully their favorite VSTi's.
So in close on this subject, i have confidence that PG dev will get it solved in time. One thing to remember is that cake struggled for about three years in the change over from DX with wrappers to native VSTi, and while mac says that PT and RB, are using VSTi protocols, they have only been using VSTi now for a about two upgrades on PT since version 10 i believe.
I am assuming most all of you that have RealBand also use BIAB. Although I would like to have the full VSTi implementation in RealBand I will happily live without it if PG Music keeps developing more RealTracks and features like they have in the last few releases. The new BIAB plugin feature is great to use with any DAW. I use FL Studio but Reaper is very powerful with new features added almost every week and it is only $60. Let the other companies develop all the higher level DAW features that seem to take a lot of development time and PG Music can focus on what it does best. I think RealBand can meet most people's DAW needs but if it doesn't just move on to something else.
I mention this once a year so I'll do it again this year. These programs are a work of love for DR. Gannon. I refer to him as Dr. in this post to bring to mind that Peter is doing something that he totally loves. I want him to continue doing what he wants the way he wants because in doing so he will never get fed up AND SELL OUT TO SONY OR ADOBE. I will always support this company in doing what they do the way they want! Period.
I'd bet almost anything that PG has been approached by Sony & Adobe.
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I am assuming most all of you that have RealBand also use BIAB. Although I would like to have the full VSTi implementation in RealBand I will happily live without it if PG Music keeps developing more RealTracks and features like they have in the last few releases. The new BIAB plugin feature is great to use with any DAW. I use FL Studio but Reaper is very powerful with new features added almost every week and it is only $60. Let the other companies develop all the higher level DAW features that seem to take a lot of development time and PG Music can focus on what it does best. I think RealBand can meet most people's DAW needs but if it doesn't just move on to something else.
Have to agree with this:
BIAB is a unique auto-accompanyment application like no other and should continue doing what it does best, including developing Real Tracks for this purpose. And, RB is an excellent application to Interface between BIAB and a full featured DAW for recording.
I on the other hand disagree, RB is a DAW, and while it impliments some of the BiaB features it is a true DAW sequencer. Having to move tracks from BiaB to RB then on to any other DAW is a lot of work, and at times a waste of time. All that keeps RB and PTPA for that matter from being a solid steady choice is the VSTi implimentation. It is very solid on midi, does a good job with audio, has decent plugins, and can add RTs and RDs in the drop of a hat.
I know there are folks that love Reaper, and Sonar, and MTS like myself and others here, and that is fine, we will use these tools as we see fitt. But please lets not discourage development of RB and PTPA with VSTi technology, as this just will give us one more very solid tool in the box.
BiaB is one of the true biggies in the field, it stands alone in it's abilities. Nothing even comes close. I for one want that to continue, and for PG to stay on track with that tool. RB and PTPA are great, but they still are not with the big boys as far as DAW work goes for this one simple reason, VSTi timing issues.
I do not say this to bash PG Music at all. I am a loyal fan, and think what the do each year for the user is simply amazing. I am not clamoring for a better GUI, if that happens i hope it is not with comprimise on stability. Or pushing to make BiaB a multitracking DAW, leave it alone as an autoaccompanyment program. I just think that if you are going to impliment VSTi it outta work completely. No DAW will work seemlessly with every VSTi's or DXi's out there for that matter, but the ones that RB and PTPA balk at are solid options that amost every other DAW will work with smoothly.
take this for what it is an encouragement, keep on doing what you do.
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Scott never misses the chance when this is the topic.
Actually, it's been quite awhile since I chimed in on this. I just found a kindred spirit to grok with that's all.
Perhaps it's because I find Jamstix so much of my composition toolbox, and easy play-thru of VSTi, lack of having to worry about MIDI channels, etc. Spoiled I guess.
I like RealBand and because so many of the functions are like those in BIAB I felt very comfortable using it but it is lacking many features available in other DAWs besides full VSTi support. Drawing automation envelopes, beat detection, and multi-core processor support are needed plus quite a few more listed in the wishlist forum. I would gladly switch back to using RealBand if it became a full featured DAW but my fear is that if PG Music spent their engineering resources on those features then BIAB development would be dramatically reduced. That said, most people do not need a full featured DAW and RealBand does everything they need. Those people might also find a DAW like Cubase, Sonar, or Reaper overly complicated and just slows them down.
I agree, I would love to see features like the ones mentioned implimented in RB. I would be very interested in using it as my primary DAW. I find Sonar and Cubase to complicated and also very buggy. I have MC3 and 5 from Cakewalk, but truely those are a bit buggy s well. I use Multitrack Studio as my go to DAW, and have tried Reaper, but it kept crashing on my system, and MTS ran smooth from day one. So i use it. It has everything i want in a DAW sequencer. It handles VSTi's better than most and unlike MC5 you do not have to kep adding intrument tracks. Each midi track allows you to drag and drop the synth into it's effects slot and then the output is treated like audio and have effects added right there.
The other thing i like is that unlike PTPA, RB, and Cakewalk programs there is not need to add a buss between the tracks and the master strip to add final effects.
But because i start mostly in BiaB, i would love to go right to RB and finish there.
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Each midi track allows you to drag and drop the synth into it's effects slot and then the output is treated like audio and have effects added right there.
This is like Tracktion. A track is a track. If you put midi data into that track, then it expects you to do something with the midi data - like send it outboard or put a VSTi on the output of that track. Then you simply add whatever VST or bus after the VSTi. No limit. If you put audio into that track, then it expects you to treat it like audio. You don't even have to mess with midi channel assignments if you just stick with midi input on that track (you can send midi from other tracks to that track if you want, and then you need to sort out midi channels.).
Tracktion also has a master effects 'slot' dedicated. No need to add it, no need to think it's like anything but a master effects. It's the final stage in the signal chain before things go to analog.
The point I was trying to make is that folks crow about how economical PTPA is or RB is compared to the 'big boys', but if you add the sum total of what they've had to pay yearly in upgrades to get features that begin to resemble the 'big boys' DAW you are at the entry price and higher for those 'big boys' - well, at least some of them.
There are other affordable DAW softwares which have these feature sets included up front. Granted, they are not auto-accomp. and composition tools like RB and BIAB. I like the melding of BIAB and PTPA features into RB, but I still can't see myself going there without good ol' VSTi implementation as I am used to.
There is a new DAW software that looked attractive to me at first, Studio One, from PreSonus, but they've chosen to handcuff their entry level version of this software ($99 I believe) so that it won't use VSTi. You have to pay for that capability in the upgraded version. Bad call I believe.
-Scott
I use Studio One as my main DAW, and just love it.
When you folks mention MTS, are you talking about this software...
http://www.multitrackstudio.com/Thanks!
When I mention MTS, which is not very often here, out of respect for PGM, it certainly means that robust MultiTrackStudio.
Not for everybody, but I think no DAW software is for everybody.
--Mac
re ..the vst spec.
i may be completely out to lunch here ...
but there might be a very sane reasonable reason why
pg and other companies didnt implement the vst spec and its various options
as fast as some would like.
lets say i own a tech company called freds music software company.
and one of my competitors..berts music company ...
brought out a neat product called "the doodad ".
or TD for short. and TD becomes a standard.
at strategy meetings of freds music company for new products ..
freds tecchies would dearly love to use the neat TD and incorporate it.
but there are concerns..
1. the standard has not been developed by an independent
non commercial standards body.
2. the source code to TD might not be available..
so freds tecchies dont know if there is some deep code
in TD that gives preference to berts products.
so understandeably freds teccchies have some concerns.
3. TD might be changed at any time so berts tecchies would
have to do a mad scramble to incorporate any changes.
i simply note that in various daws ive used some plug ins can give problerms.
youll see this on various daw forums.
i personally feel it might have been better for us music creators
of the world if two things had have happened.
1. the plug in spec had have been developed by a independent standards body.
and..
2. the same standards body (eg the AES) had have developed
a song project interchange standard format , so that users could
easily import their songs into the various daws on the market.
instead of haveing to do things like rendering individual traks.
and importing which can be laborious.
it is very easy to blame pg...but imho there might be cogent technical reasons
why certain things were done at certain times.
"The other thing i like is that unlike PTPA, RB, and Cakewalk programs there is not need to add a buss between the tracks and the master strip to add final effects."
I don't understand this sentence.
There is no buss to be added and both PT and RB have dedicated master output slots built into the mixer, they even have multiple master outs in case you are sending to multiple outputs ..
My wish is that they were easier to get to, without having to first open the mixer or another FX box ..
What i mean is that PTPA like cakewalk uses a master buss that outputs to the sound card, and that has no FX bin, so if you want to do like I do add a master limiter to the last buss in the chain you have to add it to a sub buss and then output that to the master buss. Not a deal breaker but just one more step you need to get 'er done. I like the MTS architecture where the master strip has the effect slot in it, hence being the place that you do the summing of the track. It just simplifys the process to my mind. I know that you can save a template with this setup in it, but the master strip is still just a volume control for all practical purposes.
I would love to see RB develop that way. Then leave the sub busses to be used as effects loops or group busses. No need to rename then, or any of that stuff.
That slider that is labeled "all" is not really in the the signal chain that's why there are no FX bins. It functions like a VCA control in a conventional console. Take an old console that had sub groups. When you assign channels to a sub group those signals go through another amplifier. The subgroup is part of the signal chain. In a modern VCA console those subgroup faders control the voltage controlled amplifiers in the channels. In this case the subgroup is no longer in the signal chain.
In any recent version of RB or PTPA there is a master output section that sends to the soundcard and it has four FX slots in it for mastering..
So the description you used still isn't making sense to me
Bottom right of mixer, the master output slots are the last thing the song goes through.
I believe that 'all' slider happens before that set of FX slots.. sort of a way to control how much you are pusing the master FX.
That 'all' slider stays at 100% here.. I use other ways of controlling the volumes
Well I guess cause this is all software it's not a true representation however if this was a hardware mixer you would see those A1-A16 sliders move proportionally to the movement of the "ALL" slider.
I wasn't trying to explain to you, Silvertones, I think you know your way around these programs pretty well.
It was RobH statement that
"What i mean is that PTPA like cakewalk uses a master buss that outputs to the sound card, and that has no FX bin"
That keeps confusing me.
Either I don't understand his statement or he isn't looking at the same mixer I am inside PT or RB ..
wonder if its an older version of PT he is using (?)
As a Cakewalk user from Pro audio 8 up to Sonar 8 I know what the issue is. It's that "ALL" slider in RB & PTPA that's confusing the issue. I'm like you. Full up and forget it exists. In the Cakewalk products you can set up the chain like this:
Channels----->subgroups-------master stereo out. Each of these sections can have effects. It's very intuitive. We can do the same thing in RB & PT it's just a little trickier. In audio prefs just choose 1 audio out. This will show as A1. In Audio prefs also check" use unused outs as sub groups. Now in your Master section you'll see the first one is A1 and the rest are G2-G16. Now assign your tracks to any of the subs G2-G16 .The output of each channel assigned to a sub group will be controlled by that master sub group fader. The OVERALL output will be controlled by A1 and that does allow for 4 effects. You now have the identical setup as Cakewalk;Channels----->subgroups-------master stereo out. That extra section labeled "ALL" can be done awy with in my book. I just leave it up full and pretend it doesn't exist.
I have version 11 and i see the Aux busses, but i do not see a master buss that allows summing where you can load a master limiter following an EQ
Hello royj,
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try to load GTR 3 or other VSti - get message saying the plugin cannot load!. Sigh out loud!
What exact error message do you get? All VST plugins should load. Have you used the Add/Remove VSTi item?
I really do understand what both of you are saying, but that is just more work, and effort to do something that should be setup like that to start with. The All thing is confusing, and should not be there really. having to fake a master strip with a aux strip is not intuitive at all. I have Cakewalk MC3 and MC5, and i can set up a stereo out as a master, but it would be so cool if the main out was a master strip like it is in MTS which is very intuitive i might add. I would love to see PG go this route and simplify the process.
Under the aux slots are the master out slots ..
I can't see it being simpler, actually... unless you accidently lost those.
The one on the bottom left is the main stereo out master slot in a default setup.
I can post pic if needed
I can't see trying to use an aux slot as a master..that would be really inconvenient!
If you could post a pic, i will review it tonight to see if i am missing something. No big hurry i will be at work all day. Thanks rharv!
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When I mention MTS, which is not very often here, out of respect for PGM, it certainly means that robust MultiTrackStudio.
Thanks Mac! 
Okay rharv, and Silvertones. I see what you are refering to there. I did the change you suggested and the other 15 are now group outs to the master. Still while this will work fine is not near as easy to understand or setup as the master strip concept in MTS. It comes setup with just the master strip, you add the tracks you want, and the effects sends you want and the group sends you want, and all are setup to feed the master strip. I under stand the PG view of it now and it will do. but i never understood the reason for having all 48 tracks, all 8 aux busses, and all 16 audio outs already on the screen. To me that is just pure clutter, and not necessary. My guess is that it is easier than building in the coding to add those in as you need. keeping the code simple. I will track a full tune in it and run it thru it's paces. Thanks for the patience. Rob
Any FX put here are final FX on the way out
Hi Andrew
To make sure, I have just used a fully functional Realband .seq file (alll MIDI tracks) and added a VSTi which I know works (Kitcore drum) - I use the "Add VSTi plugin" option. Kitcore works in the GM "playback" mode.
If I try to load Amlitube Fender or NI Guitar Rig 3, I get the error message popup "VST plugin was not loaded, either due to canceling or loading a NON VSTI -DLL" (I'm not shouting just copying the error message exactly!).
I hope this helps - other programs like Jamstix will load and the GM "playback" mode will be functional but not the "brain" (where it should do it's own thing at the tempo of the song).
Thank you
Roy
Rob,
Glad it now makes sense however I do agree on"why is everything up there at once" It's not intuitive.
RHARV has his setup the way I actually use mine also. I don't use Groups per say .I use multiple outs to a hardware mixer.In that way A1-A16 are my groups with the Hardware mixer the final.
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Hi Andrew
To make sure, I have just used a fully functional Realband .seq file (alll MIDI tracks) and added a VSTi which I know works (Kitcore drum) - I use the "Add VSTi plugin" option. Kitcore works in the GM "playback" mode.
If I try to load Amlitube Fender or NI Guitar Rig 3, I get the error message popup "VST plugin was not loaded, either due to canceling or loading a NON VSTI -DLL" (I'm not shouting just copying the error message exactly!).
I hope this helps - other programs like Jamstix will load and the GM "playback" mode will be functional but not the "brain" (where it should do it's own thing at the tempo of the song).
Thank you
Roy
OK, I am confused now....are we talking about VSTi INSTRUMETNS, or VST EFFECTS? Becasue I can not get my favortis VST Effects to load in RB....
Hi Roy,
Quote:
To make sure, I have just used a fully functional Realband .seq file (alll MIDI tracks) and added a VSTi which I know works (Kitcore drum) - I use the "Add VSTi plugin" option. Kitcore works in the GM "playback" mode.
If I try to load Amlitube Fender or NI Guitar Rig 3, I get the error message popup "VST plugin was not loaded, either due to canceling or loading a NON VSTI -DLL" (I'm not shouting just copying the error message exactly!).
I hope this helps - other programs like Jamstix will load and the GM "playback" mode will be functional but not the "brain" (where it should do it's own thing at the tempo of the song).
Thank you
I tried out demos of the Amplitube Fender and Guitar Rig - I was able to load them as VST plugins and they worked great. Note that these are VST plugins, not VSTi, so you want to use 'Add VST plugin' item in one of the VST (audio effect) slots - maybe that's what the problem is... If you are clicking the 'Edit DXi/VSTi' button on a MIDI track, the top slot is for DXi or VSTi synths.
Hello Andrew
What you have just indicated has just "switched on a globe" in my head - I thought the guitar sims were VSTi's !! I think I have been banging on about something for 5 years when the problem is me!!- my apologies.
I have now got the guitar sims working and everything seems to be OK. Part of my problem was not inserting "Input Monitor Insert" into the tracks combo box and not unchecking the IM boxes on the Audio prefs setting once I had recorded. I hope I understand the worklflow correctly now.
Please chip in if I am still missing something.
Thank you for your patience
Roy
I brought up the VSTi issue during the first RB beta test two years ago and brought it up again this time. Hey, a brand new program to test I thought, this must be part of it by now, right? Nope. I sincerely appreciate Peter and his dedication to these programs and us users but still... He posted here in the open forum that he was aware of the problem and they were working on it. Two years. Must be something really difficult about this and I have no clue what it is. Trust me Scott, a lot of people want this.
Bob
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Which FX won't load?
My DDMF EQ's and NY Compressor, and a few of the Modern Plugins that I use for drums...there are a few more, but these are the main ones.
Hi JCS,
I tried a VST "IIEQ.dll" plugin that I downloaded from DDFM, and it worked great. Are you sure you are selecting "Add VST plugin"?
Hi Roy,
That's good to hear - glad you got it working.
Hello Bob,
What VST plugin are you having trouble with? I have never encountered a proper VST plugin that does not work in RealBand or PowerTracks.
Hello Andrew, the free IIEQ works fine here also, but the IIEQ Pro, LPEQ, ColourEQ, and NY Comp will not load.
I will keep at it tho, and I have selected "Add VST Plugin" from the list.....quick question about that, how do I remove them? Do I edit a text file?
And as a side note, the DDMF VST's will not show up in the Kristal Audio Engine either, including the free IIEQ.
Anyway, Thanks for the quick response, and look for a post about the double hit problem later this afternoon...
Inside the FX window is a button to 'exclude' a plugin. This removes them from the available list without removing them from the system.
Thanks for that rharv!
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Hello Bob,
What VST plugin are you having trouble with? I have never encountered a proper VST plugin that does not work in RealBand or PowerTracks.
Then you've never used one that can create it's own parts probably because they're all fairly expensive.
I'm referring to the very well known tempo lock problem with VSTi's that can create their own rhythms like Jamstix, BFD, some of the guitar ones, some effects like delays or phasers that can be locked to the tempo of your song so they pulse along with the beat. I have Jamstix, it loads fine as an instrument so I can use the great sounding kits to play prerecorded drum tracks but the biggest part of JS is the "brain" that will create and modify a completely new drum part on the fly based on a very cool drum pattern creation display. It works much like the Biab styles except it's drums only. You can pick a style and then tell it to change virtually any part of the kit according to certain parameters like changing the attack on the ride, add some ghost hits to the snare, a double back beat on the kick, etc all within any style you choose and they have pretty much any drum style you can think of based on famous drummers just like Biab's soloists. That requires some further VST work in RB.
Ralph at Rayzoon commented that PG's VST implementation must be incomplete if those functions don't work. The symptom is the drum track tempo starts to run away as soon as you hit play and whatever pattern that's supposed to play begins to randomize to the point it's just a mishmash in a few seconds.
I thought there was something wrong so I corresponded with Rayzoon's tech support who told me the problem was here so then I corresponded with PG's tech support. This was maybe three years ago. After a few days they emailed me to say this was more complex than they thought and would get back to me sometime later. It was about a month or so when they said nothing could be done at this time, sorry. I commented during this last beta that Peter said two years ago that he was aware of this problem and you guys were working on it. Not a peep since.
There's a lot of frustration about this because the Jamstix brain and sounds with some Real Tracks and/or some Biab midi tracks would be awesome, same with Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist. Now of course, the workaround is to use another DAW and D & D those tracks into it but that sure seems clunky considering virtually any DAW you've ever heard of except for PT/RB has no problem with this including several freebies like Savihost. You may recall that Mac passed on the last PT 12 beta test because of this issue. Real Band of course is an entirely different animal with a lot of very cool features in spite of this glaring problem.
Bob
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Hello Bob,
What VST plugin are you having trouble with? I have never encountered a proper VST plugin that does not work in RealBand or PowerTracks.
Then you've never used one that can create it's own parts probably because they're all fairly expensive.
I'm referring to the very well known tempo lock problem with VSTi's that can create their own rhythms like Jamstix, BFD, some of the guitar ones, some effects like delays or phasers that can be locked to the tempo of your song so they pulse along with the beat. I have Jamstix, it loads fine as an instrument so I can use the great sounding kits to play prerecorded drum tracks but the biggest part of JS is the "brain" that will create and modify a completely new drum part on the fly based on a very cool drum pattern creation display. It works much like the Biab styles except it's drums only. You can pick a style and then tell it to change virtually any part of the kit according to certain parameters like changing the attack on the ride, add some ghost hits to the snare, a double back beat on the kick, etc all within any style you choose and they have pretty much any drum style you can think of based on famous drummers just like Biab's soloists. That requires some further VST work in RB.
Ralph at Rayzoon commented that PG's VST implementation must be incomplete if those functions don't work. The symptom is the drum track tempo starts to run away as soon as you hit play and whatever pattern that's supposed to play begins to randomize to the point it's just a mishmash in a few seconds.
I thought there was something wrong so I corresponded with Rayzoon's tech support who told me the problem was here so then I corresponded with PG's tech support. This was maybe three years ago. After a few days they emailed me to say this was more complex than they thought and would get back to me sometime later. It was about a month or so when they said nothing could be done at this time, sorry. I commented during this last beta that Peter said two years ago that he was aware of this problem and you guys were working on it. Not a peep since.
There's a lot of frustration about this because the Jamstix brain and sounds with some Real Tracks and/or some Biab midi tracks would be awesome, same with Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist. Now of course, the workaround is to use another DAW and D & D those tracks into it but that sure seems clunky considering virtually any DAW you've ever heard of except for PT/RB has no problem with this including several freebies like Savihost. You may recall that Mac passed on the last PT 12 beta test because of this issue. Real Band of course is an entirely different animal with a lot of very cool features in spite of this glaring problem.
Bob
What Bob says here - ditto.
However, let's start with something even much simpler. How about using a delay that locks to tempo of the song? My favorite delay for 'composition' purposes, as well as it's excellent analog tape delay emulation, is a freeware called 'bionic delay' Don't let the 'freeware' title fool you - I learned that lesson long ago. It doesn't even have time controls, delay functions are purely note values. You simply lock it to repeat how often on a note value basis with a radio button and voila - no calculations necessary. Nearly all my mod effects that I use work this way. The classic series from Kjaerhus, etc. Link to bionic delay: http://www.interruptor.ch/vst_overview.shtml
Link to Kjaerjus' classic series delay: http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-delay.php
Once you work this way - by note value link to host tempo, you will not go back to calculating these out on a calculator and entering ms values. I'm an engineer, I like calculating things, but only when necessary to do a better job. In this case, there's no advantage calculating manually when tools are available to do that work for you and allow you to think musically rather than computationally right out of the box.
Whatever, I'm quite certain that development knows of the issue, James Chandler Jr. told us as much during beta testing last year. Has to do with a timing issue and certain of those types of plugins is all I know or remember right now.
--Mac
Oh - yes, we're aware of the timing issue with Jamstix. Hopefully we'll be able to support that feature.
Andrew, I appreciate the problem tha must create for you guys. It is probabily a pain when a few yell over some plug that does not work. I am glad you want to solve it. One point i would like to make on this is, it is not just jamstix. I have several other VSTis that do not work for the same reason. So this issue touches more than jamstix users. Having said that we know you are aware, and hope it gets resolved. We appriate your product and your close attention to the users. Rob
I think they are aalso aware of a few other p;l.ugins that need the timing issue resolved.
Besides that, I have a feeling that if they can resolve it for any one or two, they've likely gotten it right for all.
--Mac
That would be cool for sure, and i do not mean to seem impatient, just adding a thought. I am sure it is a rather large undertaking to make a product like this that has to take into consideration so many different systems and personal setup, not to mention the plethora of personal views and wants. When you take all that into view it is a truely impressive project that is very impressive.
It's a problem with advertising too, Rob. Every DAW advertises full VST support including PG. When you imply that it's no big deal if a DAW doesn't work with every VST out there, you're missing a very big point. Steinberg invented VST, their plugins are pretty expensive like $3-400 and really add a lot to music creation. How can a company advertise full VST support when they can't work with products from the originator of it, Steinberg? Now, I'm not saying that PG products don't work with any Steinberg VST's, only the ones that require a tempo lock with the host which is a lot of them. Basic instrument plugin's are no problem including high end synths like Sampletank, Garritan or all the cool stuff from Native Instruments.
Even Andrew who as we all know, is very helpful and certainly knowledgeable, missed my point at first when he said every VST he's tried works fine. Sadly, I don't think this is really on the radar screen.
I'm a big booster of PG Music and there's no reason why they can't be on the same playing field as the big boys. This incomplete VST support makes them look a bit second rate to a pro. A hobbyist having fun at home, no problem but pro's need everything to be there and while a lot of them love the Real Track concept, this forces them to still have to work in two similar but separate programs to get a tune done if they really need one of those plugins. This is one reason for all the talk about how do I get my RB tracks into Sonar, Reaper, whatever else. Real Band is pretty close to being a complete DAW that can handle a complex project start to finish and this would be a step in that direction.
Not to mention it's borderline false advertising as it is now.
Bob
I just checked my email prior to going to bed and saw this:
Read this list of features and think about how much fun it would be to create some very killer drum tracks with this and then realize that gee, it doesn't work in your favorite program, Real Band. See what I mean? I'm going to do the beta but I have to use Sonar. Btw, I just checked the website, this is there so I'm not giving anything away here.
Rayzoon is pleased to announce that Jamstix 3 is now in a public beta for Jamstix 2 owners.
www.rayzoon.com/jamstix3_beta.htmlWe now also offer a discounted pre-order here for just $39:
http://www.rayzoon.com/jamstix3_preorder.htmlJamstix 2 users who are eligible for a free upgrade to Jamstix 3 (purchased after 05/11/2009) will automatically receive a separate mail with download links and license key when Jamstix 3 is released and do not need to buy the pre-order. Jamstix 3 is scheduled for release in Q1 2010.
The major changes from version 2 are as follows:
CHANGES FROM VERSION 2
larger user interface with improved graphics
load-on-demand sample management reduces memory usage, speeds up kit loading and allows kits with higher detail and more articulations
new ‘Song Wizard’ allows you to quickly develop a song structure based on your specific needs (Intro, Verse, Chorus, Pre-Chorus etc.)
a new top-down virtual kit displays the current kit with correct drum and cymbal sizes and also allows rearranging them, which also affects the limb calculations
new styles, new players and a new stock kit
new 'Intro' style supporting cymbal intros and drumstick/hihat count-ins
new 'Freestyle' offers wide range of genres in one style similar to the Jamstix 1 Free-Jam mode
built-in mixer now controls up to 8 stereo channels and also features a new ‘delay’ effect
bar editor now supports multi-event selection/editing
time signature support has been expanded up to 7/4 (14/8)
audio outputs can now be reduced to one (stereo) for minimal CPU usage.
the ‘brain’ display now auto-arranges elements horizontally and vertically to use screen space more efficiently
the new kit display allows adding/changing and removing sounds via a right-click context menu
drum module mode is now activated by depressing the current jam mode button
kit piece editing now uses articulations for faster workflow
improved ‘alternative sound’ logic for missing kit pieces
groove A.I. elements can now be ‘frozen’ in their current state to exclude them from re-composition as well as ‘hidden’ to reduce cluttering
modified styles can now be saved as style ‘presets’
modified drummers can now be saved as drummer ‘presets’
improved groove fill algorithm
added ‘Extract From Player’ option to combine elements from multiple players
style and player extraction tool now also support composition and play filters
added new accent period feature to have accents added in specific bar intervals only
Jamstix 3 supports all existing Jamstix 2 styles, players and expansion Paks and can also load Jamstix 2 song, part and bar files
jazzmammal
my songwriting pardner has jamstyx.
and yes its a very very nice product , but to imply that rb is second rate in some way
is going too far imho.
everyone kvetching on bout this is a bit much imho.
cos lack of timing support wouldnt stop a true pro from doing a great song.
look how many classic zillion selling songs were done before plug ins.
this is a hot topic to you and many others..and its very understandeable.
i fully understand.
but it wouldnt stop a true pro from doing a great song. imho.
i'm not defending pg. but i feel strongly a true pro AE would be able to do
a great song irrespective.
actually he would prolly use the built in real traks as a guide..
then bring in top session musicians to augment.
it is mainly little guys like you and i that need this.
but there are ways round it.
the big guys have gear coming out their ying yangs ..lol.
I don't recall seeing the word, "full" in front of "VST Support" in any of the PGMusic advertising literature.
--Mac
That is true mac it does not say "full", but saying VST support implies that it works with VST technology. Another point is that no host works with every plugin perfectly, or even at all. But this is a big issue in that this does not work with a lot of VSTi plugins. I would not go so far as to call PG products second rate, but other than BiaB which as we all know is not a DAW, but a auto accompaniment program, the two DAW programs while very good are hardly ever mentioned in the same conversations as Sonar, Cubase, Protools, and yes even Reaper. Now i understand that PTPA is a low price entry level sort of offering, and that RB is a bundled product with BiaB, and is sort of a new idea, so it has not caught on as of yet compared to these other program. Me personally i use RB almost everyday, but still do not use it to track new songs completely yet. Some of this is due to it still lacking some of the basic VSTi function others have. This would make the product stand up with the others i feel.
I first bought PTPA in version 10, and you might remember that version 11 was when VSTi support came in "fully" Version 10 had DX support, and you were forced to use Edirol VSC or a hardware synth. So VSTi is young here. The same was true with Sonar and especially the MC product they make, which i compare to PTPA. They first added VSTi about three versions ago, and the first offering was with a wrapper, and was a tad buggy. PG says that they do not wrap, but it is native support. So they are closer to a solution that way, and i suspect that it will get done, and have full faith in the developers to solve the riddle.
Development is aimed at Rt and Rd, and this is both innovative and powerful. But "Full" is important as well IMHO due to the fact that no matter how many RTs you have they tend to sound the same a some point due to the fact that they are wave files. Don't get me wrong, i love RTs and RDs. But on some tracks i want a different feel and Jamstix, PS fretted, and some of my other VSTi plugs give me that, and with RB i can't use them fully, and i wish i could.
A lot of you have seen me brag on Real Band all the time, I love it. It does so many very cool things and is much easier to navigate around too. It needs this but I worry that maybe it simply can't be done for whatever reason, otherwise it would've been by now.
I'm not saying RB is second rate, I'm saying it can be perceived as second rate by very experienced types who have heard of it and decided to check it out.
Manning you missed a big point too when you said that lots of classic songs were produced before plugins. Yes, that's true because the pros had the original hardware devices that cost a ton of money that the plugins are designed to emulate like a hardware delay that locks with the beat. Jamstix is a virtual drummer that I can direct just like a real cat in the studio and btw, it sounds just great too. Same with Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist. Real Band is a great app but if someone already has VG that they paid $400 for, they're going to want to use it doncha think?
Bob
jazzmammal
i fully understand people like your good self wanting to maximise
their current investments.
i just dont think there will ever be a perfect daw or plug in solution.
so i work with what i got mate.
if i find a roadblock i find ways round it.
just the other day i was reading a thread where someone had several hundred
plug ins. and from lots of people ive seen i often
wonder if some spend all their time collecting plug ins like i used to collect stamps.
you can be sure that todays plug in du jour will be replaced by something better
next week.
i realised awhile back if i spend all my time
looking for plug ins i prolly wont get many songs done.
in my case i use plug ins..but spareingly.
cos i dont believe they are the panacea that they often are made out to be.
particularly the marketing of ..
"wow this emulates a uber expensive old vintage console" etc etc.
i'm sure there are many cases where a good trak has been created only to be
made not as good useing a plug in.
like anything its how its used.
lets also be realistic. lets say you create a chart topping song.
and a big record label wants to sign you.
no matter how good your mix//plug ins...
they will want to remix with their gear anyway and augment it etc etc.
the only point i was trying to make was a super pro top line
AE with chart successes would be able to produce a great song in any daw
includeing rb. and irrespective of any irritants encountered.
hopefully what you want will come.
happy new year to you and all pg staff
and users.
I am sure JM will answer for himself, but manning what has that got to do with it? Both he and I are not talking about having a collection of hundreds of Plugins. I went through the plug collection days a few years back, and as you said it is a waste. I use maybe 10 total,other than the ones that come with each package. What we are saying is that there are solid top name brand plugins that work with almost every DAW on the market.
Jamstix will work with Cakewalk, cubase, reaper, MTS, Acid, traction, n-track, ableton live, orion, fruityloops, melodyne, kontakt. Each of these have there own support thread, and i have seen personally that the developer will talk with anyone to discuss the implimentation of his product with there host. PG is the only one i know of that uses VSTi that will not full work with this and several other plugs. We are not asking for a new look or anything other than a feature to be completed.
Sure nothing is perfect, but no one ask for perfection, just that it work fully with a supported format. Everyone does workarounds, but this issue is one that is worth talking about, and working out. The work with what you got comment is silly. If i needed to drive nail, and only had a screwdriver, i would go and get a hammer, not try to figure out how to drive the nails with the screwdriver. Also i have never advocated adding every feature to any DAW, just to make the ones there work properly.
I use Jamstix anyway as a "dumb" drum mod, but it would be so cool to have this work as it is supposed to. And as Mac said if this one works then others will most likely work as well. I am sure that development is working on this, and will solve it eventually. I have the utmost confidence in PG music. There are just some of us that would like this not to be a back burner issue. VSTi has been an issue from the start, and the reason i keep upgrading other programs. I love PG music, and want them to be the best they can. I suggest it to all those i speak with, but i have been ask how it handles VSTi and i can't say "flawlessly" like i can about other programs.
It never fails to flabergast me how defensive folks become when you dare to make a critical comment about their favorite DAW software. I like loyalty, and i am loyal to PG, hey i upgraded. I will admit i hoped that this issue would have been addressed, as it effects my workflow a bit.
Robh
man..i KNOW people want it.
but have you ever thought implementing this feature might be problematic ??
mebe it isnt a huge tech problem. but mebe it is.
i'm not defending anyone.
just suggesting that sometimes developers dont do certain things for good reason.
and i'll leave it at that mate.
Quote:
Oh - yes, we're aware of the timing issue with Jamstix. Hopefully we'll be able to support that feature.
The highlighted part says it all for me really....there must be something that is giving the good folks a PG Music a headache. I'm sure they will get it someday...
I hope so too, and that they try is all we can ask. I am not a programmer. but i assume since everyone else can get it they can. I also assume that it is a codeing issue. I am very patient, and have faith that PG will get it. I just hope they try to solve it and do not back burner it.
manning1,
I have a small request for you. If you choose to wade into this discussion, that you put on your optical computing/quad-core eyeglasses to look at plugins with the same reverence. We've all been making music successfully with our PCs that you would see has handcuffed, without much issue, for many years now. There are many folks here in this thread that dabble outside of PG successfully, with more and less expensive products, and this is a key shortcoming to PG products that we have asked for on wishlists now for the better half of a decade.
I have a very small set of plugins I depend on like old friends now. Rarely will I stray from using these in the composition process. In the mixdown/production process - I may add some flavor with other stuff, but this is the composing and rough mix setup. The list is rather short, but I post it here to demonstrate that because someone likes using plugins does not mean they are a plugin collector. This is a fairly similar list of products that a decently equipped studio would have in hardware, except mine didn't cost much of anything, except what a few yearly updates to PG products would cost - and that's with the Jamstix product. The rest are freebies or pay-for plugins I won as prizes in KVRaudio.com song contests.
VSTs:
Built-in Mackie plugins with Tracktion, specfically their dynamics processors
Kjaerhus' classic series; where their modulation plugins work on the host tempo with beat division controls
GVST lineup (as they have great signal display interfaces and work wonders as teaching devices)
Frohmage filter
Ariesverb reverb
Bionic Delay from interruptor.ch
Tracktion's parametric EQ
VSTis:
Jamstix (I'm about to re-up for version 3)
All of Mr. Ray's electric pianos and VB3 from GSi
Minimogue VA
Arppe 2600 VA
I'll experiment now and then with more, but these are the core. My go to plugins. My now old friends.
Regarding the 'low cost' claims, not necessarily from PG, but from the defenders of PG: The argument is now lost as there are dollar for dollar competitive products to the DAW aspect, that are more fully featured. I won't list them out. RB/RealTracks is still pretty unique as is BIAB capability. Not really the discussion topic of this thread however.
Regarding '2nd rate': I don't think that is necessarily the right terminology. There is something basic about VST implementation that PG programmers can't get around, that all of the little boys and big boys now support. Specifically the ability to hook into the DAW/host timing. Perhaps it's PG's ability to track SMPTE that used to be such an advantage when syncing to tape? I don't know, but there is something odd there that causes both effect and instrument plugins to be handcuffed or simply not usable at all. I would love to see, as a first step, PG have the ability to send the host tempo over to effect VST like Kjaerhus' auto filter. The fact that it still isn't implemented does make one scratch one's head and wonder why not when so many apps both lesser and greater cost than PG products can do the trick.
Pros can and do make hit songs without a computer, so trying to bring that into the discussion of a thread titled 'VST Disappointment' is a bit of a red herring.
scott.
hi and happy new year mate.
do you want me to show you all the disaster threads on goodness
knows how many recording forums where people have problems with
plug ins of various sorts ?? ive seen so many crash threads ..
but i'll leave it at that.
i'm not defending pg. as i said.
in fact as i said i use plug ins myself..
NOW THAT THE DARN PROCESSORS
CAN DO THE DARN JOB !!..lol...
cos they were lacking in power before in previous generations. imho.
well some anyhoo can do the job now..particularly i7 processors.
yes ive used other daws that host plug ins fine.
but they dont have the auto generate feature.
mebe therein lies the clue. dunno.
only pg can answer why this is a problem.
have a great year.
and if you want to contact me by pm...
i'll be happy to discuss "technically" in a friendly fashion
from a deep computer engineering perspective why ive never been
really happy with this whole topic of plug ins.
cos its detailed n i dont want to clog up this thread.
One thing for sure i want to stress here, we are all entitled to our opinions, and respect Mr. mannings. he comes from a tech side. I am no programmer, and would never pretend to be. I am rather technical, as i spend years as a electronics expert in construction installing alarms, both fire and burg, and surround sound and such. I am rather handy with a computer and can fix most issues. I also have been hard disk recording since Cakewalk was on floppy disks. So i am familiar with the issues.
I also want to stress that i do not lack appreciation for PG products and developers, and what they have built here. If they never conquer full VSTi support i will still use the product. All i am saying is I would use it more if it did this. All DAWs are buggy at times asking software to do what we do is crazy to start with. But hey, it's also fun. I have had four versions of cakewalk MC 1, 2003, 3, and now 5. I never bought Sonar because it is one buggy beast. PTPA is not near as buggy as MC5, Cake never patches the entry level product if it has issues, they just hold on to the next version and release that as the patch. PG never treats us that way.
So let's all remember we are all in this together, we just see it from different angles. One note i would point out to manning is that PTPa does nto have all the autogenerate stuff RB does and it does not work with the tempo lock plugs either, so that dog won't hunt, as they say.
Anyway i appreciate the dialog with you guys, and hope i was not in anyway offensive. The same goes to the PG team, i never want to make you folks think i do not have the utmost respect for the difficulty of what you do, and the pride you must have in a Great product. I only urge you to take a hard look at this one feature as i believe it would drive some more business your way. Besr regards to all, Rob
Robh
i only wish everyone the best.
happy new year to you.
and if you want a detailed reasoning so it makes sense pm me.
i'll be happy to explain it , but its a tad lengthy .
frankly two things have happened to make me much happier with
the plug in concept.
one being the underlying hardware now is getting the needed power to run
many instances of plug ins. (eg i7 processor). and its only going to get better
from here on in with more cores n more power on tap in a pc.
but some studios in order to run the number of plug in instances they wanted
to run have had to spend lots on processing power.
the second reason being that the plug ins themselves seem to be maturing
due to programmers haveing had a lot of experience developing plug ins.
there is a new daw product on the block called propellerhead record .
i understand it doesnt provide plug in support as ptpa didnt years back.
maybe they have good technical reasons.
god bless. and pm me if you wish.
Propellerhead have chosen to make their system 'closed' in a way - very similar to their Reason product is with MIDI.
It does ReWire however, as I believe Propellerhead may have been the company that invented ReWire. Folks used Reason for years ReWired into other DAW software, and likely Record will be similar. My guess is that it will not have the penetration into the market that Reason had because of this closed nature. I predict that it will be a small player in sales volume, compared to other audio programs - very likely because of lack of openness to plugins, which means that it will be difficult for folks to use it as the heart of their recording/composing setups if they already have an investment into plugins. Folks that have that investment will be required to hang on to their 'other' DAW that does allow for plugin use.
I know about heartaches with plugins. Doesn't mean you shouldn't give them a try or shouldn't encourage people to try them. I've been using plugins now since about 2003/4 time frame - appreciating the love they gave me for the occasional heartbreak now and then. People that are using multiple instances of the same plugin, or trying to do an audio project where 10+ plugins are 'live' don't understand how digital audio and/or computers and/or audio works in general from a hardware sense.
Those type of folks don't understand one or more of the following:
1. They don't know how to 'print' effects in the hardware and tape world. All DAW programs worth their salt have a way to print effected tracks to either a summed 'freeze' track, or at minimum, to individual audio tracks. Learn how to use this in your DAW just like you learned how to do it properly with tape. If you don't know this concept, time to learn or be prepared to have heartache. Just like flowers and chocolates, if you get my drift.
2. They've never worked with real hardware to know that you probably don't have 5 different hardware reverbs or delays wired up on separate buses in a modest hardware based studio, and yet they've got 5 different reverbs and delays employed that they are trying to use simultaneously (those are the real CPU hogs in plugin world).
3. They don't understand busing of signals in general. This is the most effective way to get around the issues of loading the CPU with unnecessary reverb tails from multiple tracks. Pick a reverb, or if you have to, two, and put the thing on an aux bus at full wet, then route the channels you want effected to that bus at appropriate send levels for each track. Done. CPU from 5 years ago now happy.
There are probably more that I'm missing here, but understanding these concepts is the first step to avoiding heartache with plugins. Like with any love affair, there are some general etiquette rules of the system that. must. be. understood. to. enjoy. the. system.
There is a cure for this. For some reason BB 2008.5 gave me a listing for VST and you can add pluggins in it.
BB2010 took this list out. Some other format is there and BB gives you an error even when you try to insert pluggins made by PG Music.( Name of folder is :VSTiPluginList and for VST VSTPluginList)
Here is the fromat:
Classic Master Limiter=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\Classic Master Limiter.dll
cleancomp=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\cleancomp.dll
FreeverbToo=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FreeverbToo.dll
Fruity Bass Boost=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FL Studio 7\Plugins\VST\Fruity Bass Boost.dll
Fruity Chorus=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FL Studio 7\Plugins\VST\Fruity Chorus.dll
Fruity Compressor=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FL Studio 7\Plugins\VST\Fruity Compressor.dll
Fruity Reeverb=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FL Studio 7\Plugins\VST\Fruity Reeverb.dll
GuitarRig 2=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\GuitarRig 2.dll
IL Delay Bank=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\Delay Bank\IL Delay Bank.dll
IL EQUO=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\EQUO\IL EQUO.dll
IL Multiband Compressor=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\Multiband Compressor\IL Multiband Compressor.dll
IL Parametric EQ=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\Parametric EQ\IL Parametric EQ.dll
IL Stereo Enhancer=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\Stereo Enhancer\IL Stereo Enhancer.dll
IL Wave Candy=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\IL Juice Pack\Wave Candy\IL Wave Candy.dll
Leveler=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\Leveler.dll
mda Delay=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\Effect downloaded\mda Delay.dll
peak master=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\peak master.dll
PSP_PianoVerb=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\PSP_PianoVerb.dll
Puncher=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\Puncher.dll
StereoEcho=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\StereoEcho.dll
StereoExpander=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\StereoExpander.dll
Studio Devil BVC=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\Studio Devil BVC.dll
ToolsOne=C:\Program Files\VstPlugins\ToolsOne.dll
Fruity LSD=C:\Program Files\Image-Line\FL Studio 7\Plugins\Fruity\Effects\Fruity LSD
For Vsti it is the same format. For some reason PG Music removed this listing from 2010 version or forgot or did not care for your complaints. What ever the story is the solution is to add this in the directory of Real Band and Bb and PT for it to work . Good luck.
So Dartagnan, you are saying that we manually have to point BB & RB to the VST?
I will try this out later tonight!
Quote:
There is a cure for this.
I'm assuming that by 'this' you are talking about whether or not RB sees the vst/vsti, and not the lack of ability to track the host's tempo.
I checked my 2010 version and I have those files (and plugins)
Here is what I think may be the case..
If RB is intsalled into a new folder as a 'new install' it won't have those files. A new install will not create those files, because the plugins have not been installed (located really) inside the program. They get created when RB adds plugins.
However, if you install over the older version (prefered method) that file will be kept and be available.
Both of those files on my system were created over a year ago, and not modified with the current version.
I have been using bussing for a while now and that is the way to do plugins on PC. In my mind it is rather mature.
well...
i have a very nice plug in here called drumcore by submersible music.
a drum plug in. i just ran a basic test.
i normally run it in another daw i have.
i just have the basic free edition. that came with computermusic.co.uk mag
a few months back. superb drum sounds in it..
all i can report is i filled a trak with a drum pattern.
then instantiated the drumcore vst plug in.
filled a trak with a 100 bar midi pattern to test.
and got back the nice drumcore drums. on playback.
being triggered by the midi trak.
so obviously the vst plug in was seen.
but this is just basic stuff. not timing interaction etc etc.
like scott and other folks want.
jcspro40
re manually point.
yes thats exactly what i did.
there are loads of dll's on a system.
includeing non audio ones.
how would the audio program know which ones you want to use ??
so you have to manually in the trak via the plug in drop down
loacate to where the dll resides.
for example in my case it was something like drumcore3.dll.
i wonder if some probs folks are haveing is they just locate to the folder the plug in
resides in rather than specifically to the plugin.dll name.
heres a tip if you are useing various music software and are lost where certain
audio plug ins reside.
use windows search and enter *.dll in the win search box.
this will list all dll's on your system includeing non audio ones.
print it out and then you can manually go thru the directory tree
to locate the plug in you wish to use.
as i said sometimes you need to wait for the plug in to load on a slower system.
ps..jcspro.
as a test i tried the freeware version of your ddmf eq.
you said didnt work.
from here..
is this the correct site ??
http://www.ddmf.eu/it worked fine and instantiated mate.
tell me any plug ins you find dont work.
i'm curious to try them.
give me a link for the ny compressor.
cos you said that one didnt work also.
is it the terry west one ??
also heres a big tip for you.
set up a folderr on win desktop main screen
called "test plug ins".
so you have a central place to download new plug ins to try out and see how
well they work in various programs.
)note make sure plug ins that are zippec are unzipped.
plus some have a proper installer. the ddmf was just a dll.
no installation.).
this way you have a central folder where the plug ins to be tested out with
rb are located. lets say you see a new plug i called
"freds 1073 vintage emulation". just download it into the test plug ins folder.
then in the rb trak point the rb trak at the test plug ins folder and then
point to "freds vintage 1073 emulation".
this will let you quikly test out new plug ins you wish to try in rb.
via one folder repository.
Yup manning1, that's the site. And I can get the Free IIEQ working, it is all the other ones that do not show up, including the DDMF NY Compressor & StereooeretS.
At his point in time I will be sticking with RB for RT/RD editing along with BiaB....I have really tried to like it, but I am just too use to something more substantial. I WILL keep an eye out for updates & the manual....especially the manual....
I am sure that the PTPA / RB DAW works great for some folks, but at this point in time I am not one of them.....
.....I just like the Studio One way.....thanks for all the info & attempted help tho, it IS appreciated!
jcspro40
i dont care what you use mate.
thats your daw decision.
gimme the links for the plug ins that dont work.
cos i wanna see if they work here.
ok no matter dont need links..
found the ddmf compressor...demo.
trying now gimme 5 minutes.
jcspro.
with respect your obviously doing something wrong your end.
the ddmf compressor came up fine with the lovely big vu meters n knobs etc.
and i changed settings etc etc.
really easy instantiation. no probs.
tell me the specific sequence of actions your going thru.
BIG NOTE..the ddmf comp MUST BE UNZIPPED AFTER DOWNLOAD !!
to get the dll. DID YOU DO THIS ??
i'm beginning to think not all ..but some claims of
plug in probs are due to pilot error.
some plug ins need to be unzippe first and/or registered in windows
and/or come with a custom installer that must be executed.)
(except for scotts n jazzes timing points re drum plug ins etc.)
jcspro.
what the heck...its early here but i couldnt resist trying the other plug you said didnt show up.
viz the StereooeretS.
i dloaded the StereooeretS.
AND UNZIPPED IT.
loads n shows up fine here. nice big display etc etc.
as i suspected it would. clean as a whistle.
please detail exactly what your doing to add a plug in to process audio.
anyone else wanna tell me bout plug ins that dont work ?? lol.
i'll download em n post back my findings.
happy new year jcs.
#1, like Mac I respect you knowledge & effort, but the condescending tone is not called for!
It does not matter to me if you care what I use or not, I just posted my thoughts on the troubles that I am having. The only other problem I have had with VST's in RB was removing a VST from a list, and that was responded to in a polite & helpful manner.
Yes the plugins are unzipped, yes they are in their respective folder, and yes they do not show up like the rest do on MY system. I am happy that they do on yours, and as a side note I think if you work with the DDMF EQ & Compressor you just might by them, I find them very nice!
I do appreciate the help & the effort, really!
jcspro.
jeesh mate i'm trying to help you.
i dont know what else i can do.
what i suspect is happening on your system is your
ddmf plug ins are buried deep in the directory structure
on your hard drive.
is this the case ??
eg if you have something like this as your dir tree...
C
folderx
foldera within folder x.
folderb within foldera
then finally within folderb are the ddmf plug ins.
on drive C...
create a folder called plug ins instead.
this will allow you to navigate more easily.
i was simply responding to the fact you said the plug ins wouldnt load.
i suspect its how your organisation of plug ins is set up.
once youve added the plug in for the first time..
youll find it in the list in the drop down the next time.
god bless.
Quote:
i'm beginning to think not all ..but some claims of
plug in probs are due to pilot error.
Really?? What was your first clue?
And btw Manning, you're one of my favorite posters, I always learn a lot from you so if we happen to disagree sometimes, that doesn't change. Scott's post about using proper protocol's for recording and mastering is the root of a lot of these problems. Except for this tempo lock issue, that's all too real.
Bob
jazzmammal
respect to you too mate.
i only wish you the best.
re pilot/user error.
well actually if i were really fair i would have to say that in many
respects computer engrs should take some heat .lol.
whether its the folks who design the OS or who design the puter hardware itself.
thus i must say in some respects ever since the pc came out ive been disappointed
with various aspects of my profession.
cos in summary ..things could have been made a whole lot easier for users.
its cos things werent made easier for the user , ...
that users today have to worry about lots of things.
from purchaseing the right puter to use as a daw , the right sound device,
knowing how to set up the sound device. as well as knowing various aspects
bout the OS etc etc.
this is all over and above understanding the different
features of the daw they are useing.
in summary i dont feel my profession is blameless.
also to be fair to daw developers ..whether pg or sonar/cubase/logic/pt/..
or any other daw one can name, daw developers are often constrained
by the underlying computer architecture. the OS and the hardware itself.
plus the chosen sound device.
often also daw devs are on a hiding to nothing particularly if the underlying
platform is changeing. or lets say for example new features are
included in the audio api's which devs then have to race
to incorporate ax well as sound device manufacturers with new driver architectures.
meanwhile the poor user is trying to just make songs.
sometime take a gander at audio api's that daw programmers deal with.
further frankly , i feel things would have been a lot easier for users
if a OS had have been developed specific for just the audio/video creation process
and daw work etc etc.
rather than being a general purpose OS that tries to do everything.
ie a nice small elegant OS for daws//video folk.
with simple ease of use command structures for programmers of daws.
if you ever have the time spend a few weeks with the mac and win audio api's..
and try some codeing..might be fun..but youll prolly after a few weeks say to yourself..
how do sonar//cubase//traktion//reaper//logic//samplitude//pg and the other daw developers
deal with this stuff.
anyone who does this will realise..
irrespective of daw they use, actually there are very clever devs behind each daw
who actually, in many respects , given the underlying puter architecture
actually have achieved some pretty impressive solutions given the limitations the
devs have to deal with.
in summary i have great respect for daw devs , irrespective of company.
cos i assure you codeing up a daw is not a trivial undertakeing.
ive only ever developed software for industrial systems. not daws.
but haveing looked at how one might go about creating daw software..
all i can say is i have great respect to all daw developers wherever they are.