The number 10 channel drum track is dated and annoying VST's are so different than the original midi driver that it is an annoyance to have to skip a channel for every 10th one. it would really bring Powertracks and Realband into the 21st century.

-1

No. I could not disagree with this thought more.

That's not up to PGMusic, because it's part of the MIDI standard. And dropping support will mean every vendor that supports the MIDI standard would also have to change.

The standard would have to change first, and even then I suspect there would be an option for backward compatibility because of the preponderance of already existing content that relies on the standard.

-1 for me also.

I have to agree with Jim and John. Sorry.
-1 also.

robbey,

I'm not sure that I'm following when you mention 'skipping every tenth one'.

Unless my understanding is wrong, one doesn't have to use channel 10 exclusively for drums. It's particularly applicable if running a general midi synth VSTi/DXi but, other than that, if using a non-general midi synth other instruments can be assigned to channel 10.

Is your request about the fact that when a MIDI track is set to channel 10, the name "Drums" is automatically added?

Regards,
Noel

I'm not meaning to be snarky here. i just want to understand.

I believe that this is one of those MIDI conventions you should know if you are getting into MIDI work. Just like tracks and channels are different. Channel 10 doesn't have to be on track 10. Yes, if you import a MIDI file, it tends to match tracks to channels, but you are free (even in PowerTracks and RealBand) to move them around as you see fit. You can make track one be the drum track (I do that all the time), just like you can in all the other 21st century DAW's (which also support channel 10 for General MIDI drums).

And every 10th doesn't make sense to me unless you are using multiple MIDI outputs, since a MIDI port only supports 16 channels (so there can only be one channel 10), but you can put the same channel on multiple tracks.

Just trying to better understand this request.

Have you people tried others, I use Sonor for my final rendering, and you don't have every 10th channel blocked for drums nor does Abelthon or any of the new sequencer? With all the new VST's you put things where you want them and on the channel that you want them. So, if other sequencers can override that, I don't see why I should waste every 10th channel for the same drum track.

No you don't have to use it for drums, however when you don't the picture of the drums is all you can choose for that track and when you are recording the melody you will hear percussion instead of the instrument you have chosen if you are in reroute to midi default mode.

I'm still not understanding "every 10th channel". There are only 16 MIDI channels to choose from per MIDI port, so there would only be one "channel 10". And again, that's not on PGMusic, that's the MIDI standard.

If you assign any track to MIDI channel 10, it's going to be interpreted from a MIDI perspective as drums. But you don't have to assign track 10 to channel 10. You can assign it to any channel.

It's been that way for 35 years since the standard was first adopted back in 1983. PGMusic is adhering to the standard, and that's certainly what I would expect.

Please provide some screen shots with more information as to what exactly the problem is. Or maybe someone else is seeing the problem clearly; I certainly am not.

And yes, most of us have used multiple DAW's. You'll see some of them in my signature line.

We would like to help you figure out your specific problem, but I'm pretty sure PGMusic isn't going to change and not support the documented standard for MIDI. And most DAW's I've seen let you assign whatever image you want for that track. There may be a default that pops up, but you can change it.

Even VST's must comply with those rules to be able to process the incoming data. The VST may choose to ignore some of the MIDI stream, but it still must recognize it and adjust accordingly.

Robbey10,

I believe you are confusing midi channels with midi tracks.

A midi instrument uses at least one channel but doesn't have to be limited to a single channel. While recording or composing midi data it is not unusual for midi guitar data to occupy six midi channels (one for each string), a piano to occupy two (left hand and rght hand). At some point though most people consolidate all of an instrument's data into one midi channel unless there is another need. Think about the piano again, you may want to have the left hand panned far left and the right hand panned far right or apply different effects. Then you will have to use two instances of the piano and they will need two midi channels.

Drums however are a special case though because drums don't have one, common sound at different pitches. Instead each note is a different instrument (kick, snare, closed high hat, open high hat, ride cymbal, crash cymbal and so on). That is why drums are assigned their own channel.

By the way, before the general midi (GM) standard was released each hardware manufacturer created their own standard. There was an informal agreement for drums to use channel 10 but some manufactures used channel 16. Microsoft released midi mapper to map midi channels to how your hardware works.

I think we're talking about multiple ports and exporting midi tracks. You can change all of that channel/program information in your DAW, so the only way it would be encoded would be on export.

Drums are expected to be on channel 10, but it's not mandatory that they are, so unless it's exported that way they you can use all 16 on one port for drums.


I'm not sure about the image thing, you should be able to change that.

You are totally wrong and best pick up the midi spec book and start reading.

Note, he said CHANNEL 10, not track 10. Every drum machine I ever had was hard coded to be set on MIDI 10 on boot up. You can move the drums to any TRACK you want. I usually put them on track 1, bass on track 2, just so the foundation tracks are at the top.

No, I am not confusing midi tracks for channels. There are 16 channels and 48 tracks in Pro tracks and Realband. If you load a VST which does limit channel 10 to percussion and you use Cayote are your input but Let's say Kontakt 5 with actions strings on channel 10 the midi will display a picture of drums, it will send a message to Coyote that it should choose a standard drumset and when you play the keyboard, you will hear drums. Until you playback where it will play out of the output that contains Action Strings. And in most modern DAWS this is not the case and hasn't been since the year 2003.

I don't understand using Coyote as your input. Coyote is a synth to which you output, not input. Coyote isn't sending anything to Action Strings; the information on the actual track is (channel assignment, notes, other controls). But it's not coming from Coyote.

Coyote is a multi-timbral synth that contains the standard 16 MIDI channels (and channel 10 is reserved for drums there also). If you rechannel your track to a different channel (not 10), Coyote will play using that channel and it won't be drums.

And you can set each and every track in RealBand to whatever MIDI channel you want. And if you assign your synths to different ports, you can have every track on the same channel, but it will only play through the assigned port (and that particular synth's sound).

So again, to eliminate channel 10 as the percussion/drum channel would require a change to the GM standard and changes to every single GM compliant synth out there (not just BIAB or RealBand or Coyote...). Kontakt (with which you would play something like Action Strings) is NOT GM-compliant and doesn't care which channel the data is coming in on (although you have to match channels to the track so it will actually receive and respond to the incoming MIDI stream) and won't play drums even if it is on channel 10, because it's not a GM-compliant synth.

Also, RealBand won't have a clue about what you have set as the instrument in Kontakt, so the track will NOT show an appropriate icon indicating that instrument (as it does for Multi-Timbral synths). That's the way it is, because it only sees it as Kontakt, not something like Action Strings played by Kontakt. If you set the track to channel 10, it will assume it is drums, because by the GM spec it is. You can change the displayed icon yourself if you want something differenet to represent the actual instrument being played.

Sorry, but I'm still confused by this request.

robbey10,

RealBand differs from Sonar and Ableton and any other DAW you can name. RealBand reserves the first eight tracks for Band-in-a-Box midi tracks by default. Other DAWs can not load native Band-in-a-Box (SGU & MGU suffix) files while RealBand can.

To remain compatible with Band-in-a-Box, RealBand needs to reserve midi channel 10 for drums.

There is no DAW today that forces you to use track 10 as the drum track and you can use track 10 in Powertracks and Realband for something else but you can only put a icon of the drums. I have Mixcraft, it does not follow that convention, I have Cakewalk Producer and it is defunct and before going bankrupt it did not follow that convention. PGMusic is the only one that forces you to use a picture of the drums on channel 10 and when you have the default VST Coyote, Cakewalk TSS will only play the drums on a 10 channel. It is dated no one but pgmusic is doing this. Otherwise I love both programs for their simplicity.

I understand that channel 10 doesn't have to be on track 10. But if you only have 48 tracks and 16 channel that means four channels dedicated to this "convention" which you all swear exists but which I don't have in any other of the DAWS that I own and they work fine. you are losing two Channel 10 to drum tracks. PGMusic won't let you put a picture of anything else but drums on those channel, if you use default VSTs they go automatically to the drums. And when you are doing large arrangement on a 48 track DAW have two channels dedicated to drums make no sense.

Only due to being an actual wish in the Wishlist Forum, I add my -1

I think Jim and John are correct about the actual issue. It's the first 8 tracks default to BIAB Mixer Tracks.

The attached screenshot shows drums on track 2 assigned to Channel 10 and has a picture of a drum set. Even though there's no drums in the SGU file, Track 2 is populated to do the Count-in.

This occurs in RealBand if the tracks have been converted to regular tracks or remain the default first 8 tracks being BIAB SGU tracks.

The OP is correct that the MIDI has nothing to do with his issue. The issue is RealBand is designed and function in close conjunction with BIAB project files. He's also correct RealBand is the only DAW that has the issue.

Obviously, it's not an issue that should be eliminated.

There's actually a setting to change the default Drum Channel in "Preferences - Piano Settings."

This has taken a curve where people are conflating TRACK 10 and CHANNEL 10. John pointed out that TRACK 10 doesn't have to be on CHANNEL 10. The Channel 10 aspect is that every drum machine in the universe is set to default to channel 10. Put the drums anywhere you want but if you use drum machines, the drum track playing the machines should be on MIDI channel 10 unless you want to change the drum machines to a different MIDI channel.

This software is made to CREATE music. If some users choose to compare it to Reaper, Creeper, Sleeper, Weeper or Beeper, do it, but only 4 or 5 others will generate your tracks, the main purpose of BIAB and RB. Don't expect PG to bend over backwards to code out a patch because one user doesn't like something. This is among the most nitpicky things perceived as a problem I have seen here in a while.
Some people would complain about their free Porsche because the radio buttons are too far away.

DAW software first appeared in 1977. The next competitors took 7-8 years to follow suit. BIAB happened in 1990. People need to stop comparing BIAB to a standard DAW. It's an apples to lawn mowers comparison. There are like 50 DAW options. Compare Reaper to Pro Tools or Logic or FL Studio or Cakewalk or Cubase, not BIAB. They are not the same kind of software.

There's all sorts of scope for confusion in this.

I think that the MIDI protocol specification itself does not specify a channel for drums.
The General MIDI specifications do specify the channel(s), but GM2 states that it/they are defaults and can be overridden.

Add to that the various and not always consistent uses here of the words track, channel and port and it's easy to understand why it's all so confusing.

From the GM1 specification:

From the GM2 specification:


In principle each of RealBand's 48 tracks can connect to a MIDI port (or VST), which in turn offers up to 16 MIDI channels.

One could have 48 channels all controlling chromatic instruments, or 48 channels all controlling drums, or any mix in between. I don't understand here where "waste every 10th channel" happens.

I wonder a bit if another part of of the confusion here is the ability of VSTs like Kontakt to have one instance that supports multiple tracks. I guess that would force the same 16 channels to port be used across the group of tracks sending to that one VST instance.

I do note that RealBand seems to presume Drums and shows that icon if the MIDI channel on any track even if that track is set to some other instrument patch. In view of the GM2 text above, I think that is probably wrong ... the icon should really be set from the patch, rather than from the MIDI channel number, or arguably and optionally with a user-supplied icon.

All of which may be informative, but I'm not sure that it resolves anything

The icons themselves are indeed editable .. and if you set the track to a certain Track Category to use them, the plus side is you get to assign a set of FX for that Track Category also.

I know this is a bit off the rails for this thread, but I did get that far trying to encourage adding this option.
All the graphics are in the RB PTW_Pictures folder
MIDI images, and in the Skins folder are the graphics for the actual track display area.

I tinkered with skins, just to do it, and a good graphics guy could do much better (I am not a good graphics guy), but it was kind of fun
When we were recording more, we would make the track icon be a picture of whoever played the track.