Hi marc,

How's things? Hope all is well with you

Thank you for having a listen to "Feel The Power". From past posts, I know that you like your rhymes perfect, in the style of theater music, so I can appreciate the jarring effect of rock/God's. These days I tend to follow a Steve Seskin approach and look to assonance rhymes if I can't find something a little closer to the mark. To be honest, though, it embarrasses me to admit that I hadn't thought of "stone" instead of "rock"! Thank you for that, I'll let it swim around in my head for a little bit and see what happens. I think it's brilliant how comments from people such as yourself, here on the forums, can open doors in the imagination. You always give me ideas that I'm thankful for. I'll be looking at those spots that you have drawn my attention to.

TC Helicon is convenient and it sounds reasonable to my ears. I appreciate that it's got that "electronicness" about it, though. My interest is writing songs and, as it is, I don't have too much time to be able to do that. Using TC Helicon makes it just that little bit easier to chase my hobby as a writer of songs rather than being an arranger of songs.

Thanks heaps for your comments about my singing I'm still smiling. As you know, I don't think of myself as a singer - well, perhaps a little bit more these days than I used to.

Take care,
Noel

About the TC voices, Noel - try to reduce the harsh, brittle aspect in the 1k-3k range and see what happens - then maybe apply a bit in the 160-300 to "warm them up" - might mask the tinniness just enough.

Ian

Hey Pat,

I like the way you think

Noel

Pat

Before my hearing really dropped a year ago I was doing some experimenting with eq screening the TC harmony track - noticed it sounded edgy and tried to take the edge off and warm it up - just enough so that it didn't stand out behind the main vocal.

Check this thread from last December about what certain ranges of frequencies can do.
http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...true#Post248681

Hope this is what you wanted. Ian

Like it. Nice and bouncy! Great message!

Listen To My Music
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This is truly is one from down south! I love the southern gospel sound coupled with the jazz guitar. A new direction. One thing you never hear in Southern Gospel is a guitar... let alone, a nice sounding jazz guitar! SG would sound a lot more fun if they had more of that!

There is one tweak instrumentally on the end that I would modify to rise up to the vocal ending. The vocals sound like it resolved completely, yet the music dropped off rather suddenly and somewhat out of sync with each other. I would polish the ending to match up to the strong vocal close and that would push it over the top.

If I were to add anything in my opinion, more of the jazz gutar fills and perhaps have it punch in some nice chordal accents using the same voice setting for taste.

RickeG

There is a heirarchy of cheese here somewhere. Maybe we can nail it down.

The best lyrics are composed with words that express the idea vividly, but without resorting to word combinations that have been overused

Therefore, while finding perfect rhymes is desirable in one way, they are the very same word combinations that are most likely to be trite and overused.

A NEAR rhyme, especially when it manages to capture the essence of the idea, is a marvelous thing. Even more marvelous is a perfect rhyme that manages to employ a combination of words that haven't already been married in thousands of well-known songs.

BUT, a near rhyme that adds nothing to the mix except a matching vowel sound pretty much ALWAYS comes across as a failure to find the right word.

If you can only have one, I prefer substance over form every time. Vivid imagery and clever phrasing takes precedence over mechanical use of terms.

That is why I write only instrumentals.

Pat - you nailed it, I couldn't agree more.

Apologies Noel for detouring things a bit.

Keep your good thing going.
Ian

Noel,
If I may hijack the thread again..

This topic of lyrics has set my mind in motion and I can't stop thinking about it. Not only are word combinations subject to cliche, but the very ideas we write songs about are subject to the same cliches. Some of the best lyrics stand out because they approach a common topic in an uncommon way.

For the sake of discussion, let's look at the song you have posted here: a song about Jonah, a story which is very familiar to most people in Western civilization.

This story can be approached directly, or indirectly. The direct approach would be to paraphrase the existing details of the story, but in lyrical form. IMHO, the direct approach is where we are most likely to experience cliche problems, because the most commonly understood way of looking at anything is the way it is most commonly discussed, hence the cliche.

A somewhat less direct approach would be to consider the elements of the story in new ways, especially if there is symbolism that can turn a one dimensional understanding (one simple interpretation) into a multi-dimensional interpretation (many possible interpretations, and the listener gets to decide).

As I read the biblical account of Jonah, my mind starts asking questions. Is there a relationship between the fact that Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of the whale, and Christ spent 3 days in the tomb? Is there symbolic significance to the many facets of the story? Or are they just random details?

Bonding one idea to another seeming unrelated idea opens up all sorts of interpretive lyrical possibilities, and virtually guarantees that you will take the lyrics to places where nobody has gone before. (my example, however, is old territory and has been thoroughly explored in theology and song... I just submitted it as a contrast to a direct restatement of the story)

Sorry for the side trip. These conversations are so interesting, and I love to hear how different people stir the creative process.

(OK, back to the original topic)

Hi PGFantastic,

Thanks for your support! This was a terrific song to write. It came together relatively painlessly (well, by comparison to my usual songwriting efforts). I'm looking forward to hearing your next new work

All the best, Robert.
Noel

Hi marc,

Thank you for taking so much time to compile your thoughts and post them. I always appreciate new ideas and new trains of thinking. I'm still playing around with your suggestions and letting them take me where the muse leads

All the best,
Noel

Hey Pat and Ian,

Wow! That's some discussion you boys are having. Never be concerned about hijacking my thread. The more, the merrier I always say

Here's my tuppence worth... (I'm not sure if that expression means anything in the US.)

Rhyme in songs (and poems, I guess) serves a number of functions. Amongst other things, lyric-rhyme can: highlight important ideas; lead a listener across the terrain of the song; create emotion; accelerate or decelerate lyric motion (which also impacts on the emotion of the lyric).

To my ears, perfect rhyme has an unparalleled sense of completion about it. When a perfect rhyme occurs, my ears hear the end of a lyric thought. This is Pat Pattison's school of thinking and one that I subscribe to. When a rhyme moves further away from perfect ryhme, the sense of completion is reduced. This can be used very effectively to create additional emotion (because it leaves the listener a little bit up in the air). I guess it's a bit like using a minor chord in a major key or maybe adding a 6 or 9 to a major chord (that is, the effect of the chord is still heard but it's resolution is less steadfast).

Perfect rhyme is one of the tools that the genre of musical theater often employs. Rodgers and Hammerstein works are good examples of this. To my way of thinking, the name "perfect rhyme" is unfortunate because it suggests that it is the "best" rhyme. This is not the case. It's simply the name of a type of rhyme. In my head, I compare perfect rhyme in lyrics to perfect fifths in music. A perfect fifth is not the "best" fifth, it's simply the name of one of a family of fifths and all types of fifth have their place in musical compositions.

In his updated book, 2nd edition, Pattison uses the song "Can't Be Really Gone" by Gary Burr and recorded by Tim McGraw as a good example of how a lack of perfect rhyme can enhance a lyric's emotion. It's also a great song to show how using a verse with an odd number of phrases (5 lyric phrases per verse in this case) creates an unbalanced effect that again leaves the listener a little off-centre. Once again, this helps to add to the song's emotion. If you are interested, here's a link to McGraw's version of the song on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmbv9IMroM8

In my opinion, Burr has written a terrific lyric and one that well captures the the longing and loss that the singer is feeling. If you look the lyric up on the 'net and simply read it aloud, you'll feel how the lyric still works without music.

FOR PAT MARR: A note on my creative process

Pat, these days when I write a song, I always look at the ends of lyric lines and see if I can make them suggest a story all by themselves, without surrounding text. I'm not always successful in doing this but I keep it in mind because these natural stops in lyric motion are more strongly emphasized to the listener and thus are more important and more memorable. In the Jonah verse, I have ocean / rock / shore / God's. These words pass my test in that they, by themselves, create good, suggestive imagery in my mind.

Another test that I apply is to look at the power positions of the first and last lines of a verse. Again, because of the way the average human brain works, these lines are emphasized to the listener. In each of my verses, I try to make the first and last lines literally summarize the verse. For example:

Then there was Jonah who was floundering in the ocean
His rescue was a miracle of God's

To my thinking, these lines pass this little test of mine.

All the above being said, though, I'm always on the lookout to make what I have written stronger and better. For this reason, I really appreciate comments from other people (musician or not). I find such comments very valuable because they stimulate my thinking in ways that would never have happened had the comment not been made.

Anyway... as I said, that's just my tuppence worth

All the best,
Noel

Noel,

I hope my observations did not come across as something I thought you SHOULD have done. Far from it, I think the song is very well conceived and doesn't need to change a bit. My intent was only to use the topic at hand (your song) as a springboard for discussion of possibilities in general, across all songs. You strike me as a man of possibilities, and so it seemed like a safe place to venture.

Your reasoning is very well considered in my opinion. And I thank you for taking time to state openly the inner mechanics of your song writing.. it makes the whole process of writing a song seem less intimidating when I see it as a series of logical and attainable smaller steps.

I'm glad that there is no set of binding rules for songwriting, but rather combinations of technique that are known to be pleasing to the ear. It is fun to learn the various techniques and apply them differently to songs according to the effect one hopes to achieve.

I am inspired by the way you approach the craft of song writing. I am not so sure I will ever have my brain wrapped around these concepts as well as you seem to, but I am having fun watching from the sidelines, learning bits and pieces as my brain will allow.

Thanks for sharing your music and your thinking. I appreciate both.

Hi Noel, How remiss of me. I thought I had replied to you before now but I see I didn't.
I have nothing further to add (it has all been said) except I really liked it.
You are getting a lot better, you seem to have found your voice
Keep 'em coming.

Best regards
michee

Although I sometimes analyze songs, I prefer not to.
For me, it clouds the enjoyment of listening.
Nicely done. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Mick

I am not a lyric analyst and normally I find a sense of lyrical completion on every song posted on this Forum. When I post a song, it's to confirm or not that the production supports the song and does not distract my attention from the overall production/performance.
I too would rather listen than analyze unless help or input is requested specifically by the author.

Ian

Hi michee,

Thank you for listening. I appreciate your vote of confidence

Happy composing,
Noel

Hi Mick Emery,

I'm glad to read that you enjoyed the song.

I have no problem with people analyzing the songs I post and offering their suggestions. This is why I post them. During my time on these boards, I have found that the detailed analyzes that many people freely share is extremely valuable in opening my eyes to new ideas that help me strengthen my songs. The many and varied thoughts of people such Ian, marc, Jeff, Pat, Skyline, flatfoot, Sundance, Mike sings, RickeG and many others, have helped me immensely in honing my skills. To be frank, I wouldn't be where I am without such comments.

Thank you for having a listen, Mick. I really appreciate the positive feedback.

Kind regards,
Noel

Hi Ian,

Please don't ever stop analyzing my songs, I really am very appreciative of all your feedback

Regards,
Noel

You're incorporating these collective Forum analyses very well Noel. Glad I can help.

Waiting for your remix.

Ian

Thanks, Ian; practice makes perfect so they say. I'm just plugging away at it and having fun in the process.

Noel