Notation software - PG Music Forums

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I think there may be some confusion about the term “notation software”.

Thanks Bob, 'course BiaB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs, such as Sibelius. Thought it was more about emulating what was being shown on this Youtube video. In terms of emulating the Youtube stuff, BiaB could do that. Plus it was virtually always possible to enter notes or notation into BiaB and have it then played back much in the vein of this Youtube sample.

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>>>...PG doesn't market itself as a notation/TAB program, and it's definitely not, so I'm not sure why flatfoot said what he did...>>>

1. When I need to print lead sheets quickly, BiaB is my program of choice. While it is true that BiaB does not claim to be a full featured notation program, it fulfills the limited need for lead sheets really well. I can get a song printed in under half an hour, start to finish.

2. The interface-the way BiaB accepts mouse-click entries and figures out the note values is brilliant. Way more intuitive than any other program.

When I need more detailed charts I use Noteworthy, which was recommended by someone on these fora. Very happy with it.

Flatfoot,

Thanks for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure we didn’t mislead BIABguy into thinking he could use BIAB as “notation software”. I know we all love the program, but we shouldn’t misrepresent it as a “one stop” program for all your musical needs. That would just leave folks pissed at being misled. I know I would be. If we tell them it’s the BEST backing tracks software on the planet on WIN or MAC, they’d find it to be to be true.

Finale is probably gonna be the closest to what he’s looking for compared to the vid on a Windows platform. I suggested Guitar Pro as cheaper alternative, (taking into account that Finale costs 9 or 10 times what GP does, and stringed instruments in general), especially for TAB, which was a criteria for BIABguy.

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>>>.... I know we all love the program, but we shouldn’t misrepresent it as a “one stop” program for all your musical needs...>>>

Yeah,Bob, you are right about that. BiaB would never stack up if it were the only notation program I had.

AND make sure you give Noteworthy Composer a try before you buy any other notation program.

...I wonder if anybody here has both Noteworthy PLUS either Sibelius or Finale. Is there anything Noteworthy WON'T do?

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Martin,

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Thanks Bob, 'course BiaB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs, such as Sibelius. Thought it was more about emulating what was being shown on this Youtube video. In terms of emulating the Youtube stuff, BiaB could do that.

I have to agree with the first part of your statement, "BIAB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs". But the second part is terribly misleading. PG Music could emulate something similiar to what he saw on the vid, but a user can't.

I try to encourage every musician or wannabe musician to try BIAB, but I don't misrepresent the product and say it can do everything you want in a music program. PG doesn't offer Finale JUST because they want to make a buck. They do it because it fills a void.

I feel that I have to throw this into the discussion. I hope that PG Music DOES NOT incorporate “notation software” into BIAB, UNLESS they offer it as a separate product.

The cost of BIAB has already gotten prohibitively expensive with the introduction of Real Tracks and Real Band. I wouldn’t want to see it priced “out of reach” of the Joe Blow musician. I haven’t been able to upgrade since 2009 because of the price, and I’m a long time user. That sucks, especially since they’ve incorporated some of the things I’ve specifically asked for, such as treating 8th notes as 8th notes in bluegrass, and not 16th notes. That was a REAL big problem for me.

So I don’t want to see them do anything that will jack the price up EVEN HIGHER! I hope they stick to doing what they do best. Offering the best backing tracks that anyone could want in a user friendly format.

Hopefully someday I can upgrade to what I personally asked Peter Gannon to do in a lengthy thread in which he participated, (thanks Peter), and take advantage of BIAB treating bluegrass as it is written, and not as it’s perceived.

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PG Music could emulate something similiar to what he saw on the vid, but a user can't.

Why?

Martin,

Maybe you know something I don't about BIAB. That wouldn't be too difficult.

So please emulate something for us using BIAB in TAB and standard notation with the fretboard that includes backing tracks that don't use tracks from BIAB in any way, shape or form.

Or, ................., realize what this thread is about. Notation software.

P.S. Using a clip from a PG lesson doesn't count, ......, unless you created it. I'm trying to keep from misleading a BIAB user. You appear to be trying to keep telling him he can do what he's looking for with BIAB. Please teach us how to do it.

We'd all like to know.

You might import or enter your guitar play into the melody track, and then make this track a guitar track (Melody|Track Type -> Guitar). Making sure you select 'Tab' in the Notations Window Options, you get your notation along with Tab. Then you'll just need to open up your floating fretboard, align your windows to your liking - and you're all set. Works here.

Martin,

I’m going to take one more crack at this. Most musicians who play fretted stringed instruments prefer TAB to standard notation, If you import midi into notation software the standard notation will be correct but the TAB almost certainly will NOT be the way the music is actually played, although it will be plausible or technically correct. What you created may look similar to you, but the TAB and fretboard will almost certainly be wrong.

Why does this matter? For example, an open G string sounds different than a D string fretted at the 5th fret, or an A string fretted at the 10th fret, or a low E string fretted at the 15th fret. But they are all the same note and same octave, yet they sound different, especially on an acoustic guitar. Midi and std. notation treat all these notes the same. Here is an excerpt from something I wrote several years ago concerning TAB vs. std notation.

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Tablature vs standard notation for stringed/fretted instruments. It’s frequently maligned and often misunderstood by people who don’t play stringed instruments, (and occasionally by those who do play them).

For anyone who may not be familiar with tablature, the number of lines = the number of strings. For example, a guitar has 6 strings and therefore has 6 lines in the notation. A banjo has 5 strings and therefore has 5 lines. A bass guitar has 4 strings and 4 lines, etc. A 0, (zero), on a line means an open string. A number on a particular line means you fret that string on that fret.

In the following, I have given 8 examples of a G major scale, all played in the same octave, in 8 different positions on the guitar. There are other positions you could play this scale in this octave, but “Eight Is Enough”. (I’m showing my age here). Tablature and standard notation are shown.

So TAB doesn’t just tell you what note to play, but where to play it.

Since you don’t play guitar, you might ask “why does it matter which one you use?” It some cases it may not, but each position opens up different possibilities for phrases or licks or ease of fingering. And they sound different when played on an instrument vs. playback of a midi file.

When “pickers” create music notation, they usually aren’t going to be importing a file, but manually entering the notes in TAB instead of std. notation, unless they’re a classical or jazz musician.

While it may be possible to create something that looks similar to the original post in BIAB, it’s extremely unwieldy, time consuming and impractical. And the sheet music when printed is definitely not professional quality, or as Finale calls it, “engraver quality”. Lets add track limitations to the list of reasons.

BIABguy came to the forum for help. Trying to steer him to use BIAB as notation software isn't helping him.

I hope this clears things up. Whew!!!

Thanks for the tutorial, Bob. The whole rigmarole makes a whole lot more sense now. The BiaB virtual fretboard allows in principle entering notes to the melody track via clicking on virtual fretboard strings. Notes looking identical on the standard staff indeed show then up at the correct and potentially different fretboard positions when pressing Play. In principle it appears thus possible with BiaB to achieve what was shown in the Youtube example.

BiaB does not seem to be particularly user friendly with this mode of operation, though. Dedicated programs may provide more comfort here.

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Thanks for the tutorial, Bob. The whole rigmarole makes a whole lot more sense now.

You're welcome Martin. Take care.

That was interesting, Bob. With jazz charts, I never see TAB notation. Thanks.

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That was interesting, Bob. With jazz charts, I never see TAB notation. Thanks.

Matt, Tab is everywhere for us guitarist - even in jazz charts. While, not so much for straight comping, it is very prevalent over in chord-melody tracks (which was actually the examples at the start of this thread).

Matt,

I’m glad you found that interesting. I decided to save it in case I ever needed to explain it again.

With fretted stringed instruments, and the numerous ways available to play the same thing in the same octave, TAB is IMHO far superior to std. notation.

When I played piano for a year or so, and fiddle, I obviously used std. notation. But one of the great things about fiddle was that you could take mandolin TAB and use it for fiddle, since they are tuned exactly the same. So the songs I already knew on the mandolin instantly were available on the fiddle, with the exception of dealing with the bow and no frets. Fiddles can be screechy little bastards if you're off by the slightest amount on fingering or bowing.

TAB is an extremely versatile way to convey to someone precisely what’s being played.

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>>>....Most musicians who play fretted stringed instruments prefer TAB to standard notation...>>>

This is not true at all. I have been playing all my life and I do not use tab at all. Dozens of musicians of my acquantiance would say the same thing.

Tab is way to limited to be useful to me. It not allow for changing keys or even positions on the neck. It does not allow for playing the same tunes on guitar, banjo fiddle and mandolin, which I frequently do. At bottom, I am just not interested in learning to play the way another might do it. Tab just in not flexible enough.

I too am surprised to read that jazz guitarists use tab. Just does not fit with what I beleive jazz to be.

Bob, has done a good job layng this topic out. Kudos to you guy.

To a jazz guiatrist it is all about voicings - so many way to play the same notes that if you want to communicate the "fingering" you have to show the Tablature (Tab). Of course the Tab does not show the note duration and many other musical itesm, so the standard notation is needed also. Then having an application which shows the animated fretboard display synched with the Tab is the cherry on the cake - if you are making a video.

Don't understand the problem stated with Guitar Pro, this program does all this very nicely. I suspect there was a bit of a learning curve which had to be achieved.

Whoa flatfoot,

I didn’t say ALL fretted stringed musicians. You are personifying what I said about “frequently maligned and often misunderstood “.

Since almost all TAB includes standard notation, everyone gets what they need to learn to play.

I also play several instruments, but I think harping against TAB is an elitist thing. Telling a budding musician that they have to learn an inferior method of notation, (std. notation), is the same as telling them they aren’t welcome to the “club” unless they learn to read it. (If you need clarification on “inferior”, just look at my post using a G scale as an example!)

I use both, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a majority of any fretted stringed instrument musicians to say they prefer std. notation outside of classical or jazz. Why make learning an instrument any harder than it already is?

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>>>....Most musicians who play fretted stringed instruments prefer TAB to standard notation...>>>

This is not true at all. I have been playing all my life and I do not use tab at all. Dozens of musicians of my acquantiance would say the same thing.

I too am surprised to read that jazz guitarists use tab. Just does not fit with what I beleive jazz to be.

Good points. There is actually a very funny video (can't find it now) of several recent (70's) Guitar Gods playing their licks. then the "...little numbers on the lines " are taken away and they can't play at all.

Then the famous joke; "How do you stop a horn player from playing?, - take away his sheet music". followed by "how to you stop a guitar player from playing?, - put the sheet music in front of him".

And finally, several years back I completed a certificate course in Jazz Guitar from Berklee School of Music - ~50 % of the course material was in Tab.

Dan,

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Of course the Tab does not show the note duration

All the way through GP4, the TAB had note stems and values. When GP5 came out, they adopted what you see now. I had numerous email exchanges with the guys at Guitar Pro, and they promised me they would "fix" it in the next release. They didn't. Even tho I have GP5, I still use GP4. It's better in a whole host of ways.

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Bob, has done a good job layng this topic out. Kudos to you guy.

Thanks Dan. I appreciate that. I tried to be very thorough in that last explanation.

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All the way through GP4, the TAB had note stems and values. When GP5 came out, they adopted what you see now. I had numerous email exchanges with the guys at Guitar Pro, and they promised me they would "fix" it in the next release. They didn't. Even tho I have GP5, I still use GP4. It's better in a whole host of ways.

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I am working on GP v6 right now and have never seen note stems on TAB? Perhaps there is a button to push which I have never used? Otherwise, as you know, it is very common to lay out both Tab and Standard Notation together.

Dan,

Just look back at my post on the G scale, #325100. That's GP4 and you'll see the note stems. GP5 and GP6 don't have it. GP4 is also customizable on spacing between ....... , well, everything....

and font size of whatever you wish to change. GP5 and 6 aren't.

I increase the spacing between the TAB lines and increase the font size of the numbers and make them bold.

You can also turn off std. notation or TAB. Whichever you prefer. (In GP4).

flatfoot,

Which one these better conveys to the student what they should play? The TAB or the std. notation?

(Note: I didn't "doctor" the std, notation. That's just the way it came out.)

Dan, Take note, (pun intended), of the note stems on the TAB. That's GP4.

No doubt about it, for the student, tab is the easiest and fastest way to convey to him what you want him to play. Many of the transcriptions I have are in tab. Easiest way to learn them. I like the the stems on the tabs, too. Never seen them before. Very cool.

That being said, I've never had a gig, and there have many over the years, where the MD gave me my part in tab, and if I had asked for it in tab, I suspect they would have gotten someone else. Now that's a completely different situation from practicing. It's work, and you're paid to play what the arranger's written.

But for the student, or someone who plays for his or her own enjoyment, or plays in a group where nobody reads, tab is the way to go, for sure. But at some point, if the student is serious about learning his instrument, he'll need to learn how to read.

And Dan, I know a few guitar players here who attended Berklee (I assume that's where you meant in your post) and they are excellent, I mean EXCELLENT readers. And the cats can blow. They never had tab when they attended back in the 70's. They had to learn how to read, or leave. It's different nowadays, and I mean that in a good way. The students learn faster. But believe me, before they graduate, they better know how to read.

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Bob, has done a good job layng this topic out. Kudos to you guy.

Yes he has!

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Don't understand the problem stated with Guitar Pro, this program does all this very nicely. I suspect there was a bit of a learning curve which had to be achieved.

I was hoping to be able to have a blank sheet of say 24 bars (no music in the bars) and then be able to take my chords that I created on the left side and drag them onto whatever beat in whatever bar I wanted.

I couldn't see a way to do that.

I also couldn't see a way to name the chords I created, using my own names.

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I was hoping to be able to have a blank sheet of say 24 bars (no music in the bars) and then be able to take my chords that I created on the left side and drag them onto whatever beat in whatever bar I wanted.

I couldn't see a way to do that.

I also couldn't see a way to name the chords I created, using my own names.

Here is GuitarPro V6 with my attempt to reproduce what i remember seeing in the original link. This is standard notation, TAB and animated Guitar Fretboard all working as GP does it. Makes for a nice video.

this is simply for practice and teaching purposes. We have come a long way from working out in the woodshed.

Chord Melody in GP

Composing and arrangeing for Guitar does require some considerations, not all things go, as we only have four fingers and unless you have monster hands some intervals just don't work. This is best summed up here:

http://musicianwages.com/the-working-musician/music-notation-for-guitar/

>>>...I didn’t say ALL fretted stringed musicians....>>>

Yes, Bob, I know. You said "most." This was the statement with with which I disagreed.

Those who have access to a good guitar MIDI pickup and controller can set pgmusic products guitar settings to Multichannel, which puts each string on a different MIDi channel and also automatically knows which "G" you play on which string. It will then notate accordingly.

If you don't have a MIDI guitar setup, you can still set the notation options to Multichannel and then be able to better designate these things, but it will take a lot longer to implement with the mouse and keyboard.

--Mac

>>>...Which one these better conveys to the student what they should play? The TAB or the std. notation?...>>>>

When I want a student to use a certain fingering, I add the fingering to the standard notation. I can do this using notation software or by hand. Same for bends, ties and slurs.

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Those who have access to a good guitar MIDI pickup and controller can set pgmusic products guitar settings to Multichannel, which puts each string on a different MIDi channel and also automatically knows which "G" you play on which string. It will then notate accordingly.

If you don't have a MIDI guitar setup, you can still set the notation options to Multichannel and then be able to better designate these things, but it will take a lot longer to implement with the mouse and keyboard.

--Mac

Of course, ala our man Carlos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VxCPlfV1lA&feature=related

Dan,

Nice job on the video.

I think I know what you want to do overall here, I have been there myself and still attempt to do this. I agree we have been all over the block with lots of good stuff in this thread but at the root is still the objective to TRANSCRIBE a recording (note for note) with a NOTATION SOFTWARE.

Bottom line, this is a chore - no canned-package will do this for you. Technology just ain't there yet. So we are left to attempt to simulate the old fashion way of using our ears with pen and paper - with what ever tools exist.

The effort I showed you in Guitar Pro V6 was all GPv6, including the sounds. The arrangement was the authors and the composing was - well who ever wrote Somewhere over the rainbow. with the program you can enter note for note the entire arrangement, in any of the three formats - Tab, Standard or Freboard. If you enter one form, all the other two are automatically completed. Then you can edit any of the three and all others adjust - exactly what a Notation Program will do for you. Besides being able to then print the score, most Notation programs (all modern ones) will then allow you to play the score as a midi file.

Many Notation Programs will allow you to store predefinded Chord structures and insert them. GP has a very good feature for this. Also Finale Notepad I believe has this feature so I think it is common. Personnaly, I would nOT begin this effort with BIAB. I think there a better designed tools for this job and BIAB's strengths lie in other areas.

Good luck, keep looking, let us know what you find. But in the meantime don't let the lack of the tool stop you from using your ear and pen and paper.

dan