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Posted By: GDaddy Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/24/11 08:46 PM
The Gibson plant in Nashville was raided in November 2009 for possible violations of the Lacey Act, a federal environmental law that prohibits importing endangered species. Federal agents seized materials, files and computers from the Nashville plant on allegations that a rare endangered ebony wood from Madagascar was illegally used at the factory. No charges were ever filed.

This time it was the Memphis Plant...nice guitars "through the glass darkly"!!

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/aug/24/federal-agents-search-gibson-guitar-factory-memphi/


Ever since I bought that first "L-5" from the Gibson Rep in Chicago, Circa 1958... I've wanted to tour that place!!

Exotics or not they delayed the tourist for a while...again!

Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/24/11 09:33 PM
Goodness gracious!! Don't the Feds have anything better to do than harass one of the oldest American companies?

Of course not.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/24/11 10:49 PM
And then in the next breath, let's hear them criticize businesses who leave for foreign shores. I bet none of them have ever had to play a Japanese Telecaster or a Mexican Strat....
Posted By: DrDan Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/24/11 11:09 PM
I am interested to hear the outcome of this. I am not yet to cynical to believe that the Feds would raid the company without pretty good indication that something illegal was going on. We all have to play by the rules. And while I am pro-american work, I do have a Mexican Stat (due to the lower cost) which plays very nice.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 12:48 AM
The imported instruments coming in to the US now are FAR superior to what they were in the past and are a great bang for the buck. But they generally don’t hold a candle to their American counterparts, especially in terms of hardware, finish and playability.

Companies like Gibson, Martin and Fender are a part of America’s musical history. To harass them is unconscienable! If there’s problems with some of the woods they’re using, the Feds, (sic – aghhh – petewy), should meet with them and figure out alternatives. Not try to shut them down!

As usual, the Feds are idiots who are more concerned with international law than they are about preserving American companies and jobs, …… not to mention our musical heritage.

It’s no wonder so many folks are turning on the Feds. But it’s definitely more PC and EC to take jobs from Americans and wipe out companies who’ve been around almost as long as the US in order to appease international pressure. It makes us look good at the UN.
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 12:56 AM
Golly...
Am I too old to join the Fish & Wildlife Agency...

I'm all for fishing, hunting and raiding Gibson Guitar Emporiums....
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 01:06 AM
Quote:

I'm all for fishing, hunting and raiding Gibson Guitar Emporiums....




Fishing … count me in, let’s go catch something and cook it up! Hunting, … you go kill it and clean it, then I’ll cook it and we’ll both eat! (shucks, ...... I'll even do the dishes!)

“raiding Gibson Guitar Emporiums”, …… this part I didn’t get. (Unless of course you meant it would be nice to be able to go in and pick out what you want).
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 02:05 AM
"Put your hands up and step away from the table saw!" Your Imperial Federal Government at work, under the control of an anti-capitalist administration.

Maybe laws concerning rare and/or endangered resources are a good thing, but this could--and should--have been handled a lot differently.

Richard

Note: Edited to remove deliberately inflammatory phraseology. I can always put it back in later.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 02:15 AM
Hopefully this is nothing to fret about, and they will get over the bridge. They need to use their head and stay in tune with the world. I just really hope the see the keys to success and not string up along.

And it's late and I am out of puns.... maybe I can pickup in the morning....
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 03:00 AM
Okay, ……, I’m gonna use tongue PARTIALLY in cheek for this comment.

Quote:

Maybe laws concerning rare and/or endangered resources are a good thing




I can’t think of a better way to “preserve” exotic woods than to put them in a fine handcrafted instrument.

(Now, ……, taking the tongue out of the cheek). Considering that many, (or most), of these trees are burned to the ground to make room for corn, potatoes, soybeans or livestock, ………, instead of WASTING them by burning them, cut them and pay the locals, so the woods can at least be used in a respectful manner.

So if the choice is between having a tree be a pile of ashes on the forest floor, or fretboards for a 1,000 Gibson L-5’s, ……, let’s see, ….., let me think about it, ……, I’ll take 1,000 L-5’s!

Shucks, ……, just give me one L-5 over a pile of ashes.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 03:11 AM
Quote:

Fishing … count me in, let’s go catch something and cook it up! Hunting, … you go kill it and clean it, then I’ll cook it and we’ll both eat! (shucks, ...... I'll even do the dishes!)



I have some great Madagascar ebony that burns great for a barbecue...
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 03:21 AM
Quote:

Maybe laws concerning rare and/or endangered resources are a good thing, but this could--and should--have been handled a lot differently.




The endangered species I am more worried about is the musicians who play original music......
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 03:23 AM
Perhaps the Feds were looking for an "axe" wielding employee................
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 03:28 PM
A police raid, in the US, is not a conviction.

It takes the court of law and time to sort that out.

And I'm fairly certain that Gibson has already retained rather substantial talent.

The kind of legal beagles who pronounce the word, "contest" with the accent on the last syllable...

Remeber, it ain't over 'til its over.

Innocent until proven guilty, not guilty by accusation.

Speaking of fishing expediions...


--Mac
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 04:10 PM
I'm sure Gibson will make another goofy signature model named after this.
The Gibson Raid, little handcuff tuning keys and Miranda rights inlayed on the fretboard.

You have the right to play with a pick.
Anything you play or can't play will be held against you in a club or bar.
You have the right to speak to a roady.
If you cannot afford a roady, one will be paroled for you.
Do you understand these lyrics as they have been sung to you?
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 05:25 PM
Quote:

You have the right to play with a pick.
Anything you play or can't play will be held against you in a club or bar.
You have the right to speak to a roady.
If you cannot afford a roady, one will be paroled for you.
Do you understand these lyrics as they have been sung to you?




And those would be the Carmen Miranda rights?
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 05:43 PM
Quote:

Fishing … count me in, let’s go catch something and cook it up!
I have some great Madagascar ebony that burns great




Did I smoke that? Probably.

Your Nanny state(s) are catching up or passing us here in the frozen wastelands.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/25/11 08:16 PM
Ok, I hate doing this since I'm somewhat to the right of Attilla the Hun but still, illegal importation of exotic hardwoods is a huge problem worldwide. It boils down to are there illegal hardwoods in that factory or not? If there are then what's the defense? Is it the good ol "Gee officer I have no idea how that cocaine got under my seat, honest!". Or is it "The manifest says it was this kind of wood when it's actually that kind of wood and how were we supposed to know?". Right. Trust me, the exec's at Gibson are experts in those woods, they know what is what. The only real defense is the feds are wrong, those woods are in fact legal and I hope that's the case.

I'm definitely on the side of preserving American jobs and all that but what are you guys suggesting here? That the feds look the other way because it's Gibson? What about another boutique guitar maker up the street that competes with Gibson who is stuck using legal hardwoods that are not as nice as that killer illegal Brazilian Rosewood, or Indonesian Ebony or whatever it is? Those guys can't compete and wind up going out of business because the Gibsons are nicer with better wood. What about those jobs?

Same principle with illegal immigration. They're either here legally or they're not. It's totally unfair to all the hundreds of thousands of people worldwide who spent the money and went through all the crap to get their legal green cards to then see all the illegals get some kind of amnesty? What a slap that would be.

It's not fair to the legal immigrants and it's not fair to Gibson's competitors if it proves to be true.

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 05:51 AM
Well, again the caution is to try real hard not to jump to any conclusions.


--Mac
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 08:47 AM
From a Gibson press release dated 08/25/2011:

Quote:

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”




This has the ring of truth to it. The Justice Department under Obama is proving itself to be an instrument of political correctness rather than of law, notably by their unwillingness to enforce laws which inhibit the enemies of this country. Left-leaning members of the judiciary increasingly refer to foreign law for precedents, which is an affront to U.S. sovereignty. The administration walks and squawks like a duck that is inimical to the capitalist free enterprise system.

I am neutral on the subject of corporations, believing that they are not inherently good or evil except as they are made so by the men of which they are composed. I so far haven't heard a lot of good about Gibson's CEO. If Gibson is guilty of wrongdoing then there should be consequences. The same should be true if the government misbehaves. I am extremely wary of this administration as regards American institutions.

Whatever the outcome, I hope it reflects a basis in American law rather than of political vendetta.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 11:53 AM
Here is a scenario: You are an instrument maker, constantly involved with the purchase of raw materials. Some entity approaches you offering certain raw material for sale at market price, you inquire as to its place of origin - and that entity proceeds to lie to you.

Get my point?

(The ridiculous shenanigans of the present administration notwithstanding.)


--Mac
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 12:11 PM
Even after the last "raid", I don't believe there was anything illegal that was discovered, or any further actions taken....until this one, at a different Gibson Plant!

All these agents running around for the Fish and Wildlife Service, should be transfered
into the CIA to work with the branch that's infiltrating Fundamentalist Cells in NYC.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 02:19 PM
Here’s a more in depth article on the topic that goes a little further to show how far the Feds could take this. The article is pretty well written, compared to the original.

“Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

A couple of select quotes:

Quote:

Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.

If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecution. ………..

It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge—despite Herculean efforts to obtain it—that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."




Oh yeah, ………………. you keyboard players aren’t safe either:

Quote:

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.




I guess I should be glad I sold all of my vintage instruments.

Anyone wanna defend the Feds after reading this story?
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 02:25 PM
This all, gives me and Woody "The Cocaine Blues"!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 06:20 PM
Bob,

Quote:

I'm definitely on the side of preserving American jobs and all that but what are you guys suggesting here? That the feds look the other way because it's Gibson?




What I’m suggesting is that the Feds are out of control and they’re going after people they shouldn’t be bothering. By logical extension, (as stated in the article I posted earlier today), they can use the same “laws” they’re using to go after Gibson to go after people who own vintage instruments. After all, how many people who own these instruments can provide documentation to show that the woods used in these instruments were obtained legally?

Do the Feds have to “prove” the woods are illegal before confiscating your instrument and pressing charges against you and arresting you? …………… Nope. The onus (and legal fees) is then placed on the accused to prove their innocence.

Quote:

What about another boutique guitar maker up the street that competes with Gibson who is stuck using legal hardwoods that are not as nice as that killer illegal Brazilian Rosewood, or Indonesian Ebony or whatever it is? Those guys can't compete and wind up going out of business because the Gibsons are nicer with better wood. What about those jobs?




Good question, especially since Gibson has never been known for great woods, just great guitars. Let’s say you do want that guitar with “killer Brazilian Rosewood”, (or just about any other exotic wood), all it takes is a google search to find an exotic wood supplier complete with links to a luthier to build that geetar for you. Is Gibson or Martin that luthier? Nope. ……................. It's the "boutique guitar maker up the street". The wood is supposedly from stumps of Brazilian Rosewood that were illegally cut, but the stumps can be legally harvested. So the boutique guitar maker ain’t going anywhere, (yet).

Shucks, Gibson doesn’t even offer a “carved top” archtop anymore. Who does? ……….. Well you guessed it, …………. the boutique guitar maker.

Back to my original question. Don’t the Feds have anything better to do ???????????
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 07:24 PM
Very good post Ryszard. If true, that certainly throws a twist into this. Still, companies as old as Gibson who's whole reason for existence is based on a knowledge of certain exotic woods are staffed by world class experts in those woods and the laws surrounding the use of them. If they are truly ignorant of those laws then that's pretty stupid. Oth, this thing about whether or not the wood was somehow finished by Indian workers or not certainly sounds like fun for the lawyers.

I completely agree with your comment about corporations. Corps are owned and staffed by people. There's no such thing as an "evil" corp like left wing zealots like to think. They love to bash oil companies yet they employ hundreds of thousands of people. Exxon is not some robotic nonhuman entity all by itself ruining all our lives. Exxon is a huge conglomorate of people. Same thing with Wall Street banks which the left also loves to bash. If they think they're too rich or something, making way too much money, then I tell them that's a good thing, buy their stock and get a piece of those earnings. The stock market is the great arbiter of financial truth. If the banks are really that flush, really making way too much cash then their stock would be going through the roof. It isn't. I tell these same people they better hope those "evil" corps are doing well because that's where their own 401K retirement money is invested so when they yell and scream about corps they're shooting themselves in the foot. Funny how none of them seem to get that. Watch the stock prices, that will tell you if a company is making too much money or not. If they did have big profits like Exxon did all that means is they should have bought some Exxon stock last year. If they had maybe they wouldn't be yelling so much.

Bob
Posted By: KeithS Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 07:33 PM
Quote:

From a Gibson press release dated 08/25/2011:

Quote:

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”




This has the ring of truth to it. The Justice Department under Obama is proving itself to be an instrument of political correctness rather than of law,




Some facts that the Gibson Press release fails to mention:

(1) Gibson is being accussed of deliberately falsifying documents to circumvent the Lacey Act. The Lacey Act mandates that the importers/shippers follow the country of origion's export laws.
(2) Specifically the import labels and other supporting documents filed by Gibson identified the product as finished, when it was not finished and incorrectly identfied the wood as a 6 mm veneer for making guitar bodies when the shipment was in fact ebony logs sawn to size to make fretboards. That is the accusastion. Nothing about whether the wood is certified, an endangered species, or complies with Indian Law. They are being accused of falsifying shipping documents to get a product through customs that otherwise would have been turned away.

So, if someone wants to spin this that the US is interpreting India Law, or stopping American workers from finishing products in this country, then it is JUST SPIN. Either Gibson falsified the documents or they didn't. If they didn't, then they are home free. If they falsified the documents to get something past customs that they knew would not get past if they told the truth, then they are guilty of smuggling. It is a pretty black and white issue and it looks like there are folks that want to obscure what the real issue is by putting up a smokescreen.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 07:36 PM
If this story holds true, apparently Gibson's Juszkiewicz already has something to say:

Quote:



An update to the story of Obama's raid on the offices and factories of Gibson Guitar... It seems this is a case of the Obama DOJ intimidating an American business into complying with what it perceives to be international law.

The core issue is Gibson's purchase of wood for use in guitar fingerboards. The wood is not raw, nor is it finished. Juszkiewicz explains that the wood is purchased from Madagascar when it is "two-thirds of the way" finished. Once purchased, the wood is brought to America, where it is finished by American workers.

According to the Obama administration, purchasing unfinished wood is a violation of Madagascarian law:

"So the government's contention is that because American workers are working on that and finishing it, that it is not a finished product and, therefore, initially Madagascar law - and now I guess they're contending Indian law - says you can't remove unfinished product from the market. So in other words, if a person in Madagascar had completed the work on that blank, it would be legal. But the fact that American workers are finishing the work in the United States, makes it illegal, as far as their concerned."

"The government's position is, that is the law of the land in Madagascar and they are saying that is the law of the land in India. That is not the case. The fact is, we have affidavits from numerous government officials - and this court case, specifically now, is forMadagascar wood. We have affidavits from virtually every govt official saying that it is legal, that their definition of what is legal is a fingerboard blank and its been exported within every certification that is necessary. So they have the arrogance to interpret Madagascar law differently than the people of Madagascar."





source: http://www.obamafailblog.net/2011/08/update-on-obamas-raid-on-gibson-guitar.html

Admittedly the site is, shall we say, partisan, but should this prove true, brother Ryszard is spot on IMO.

There is a video of the above transcript there where you can hear Jus in his own voice.


--Mac
Posted By: KeithS Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 07:54 PM
Quote:

Admittedly the site is, shall we say, partisan, but should this prove true, brother Ryszard is spot on IMO.
--Mac




But take note again how the issue is redefined by the partisan argument. If the problem is that the Obama justice department is misinterpreting the export laws of two foreign countries, then the product never gets in because it is stopped by customs. At that point, Gibson can't be raided because the product never made it past the gatekeepers.


If Gibson thinks that the Obama administration is misinterpreting Madagascar and Indian law, then the right thing to do is challenge that interpretation in court. If their solution was to simply lie about what the shipment was, that would clearly be a violation of the law.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 08:12 PM
Keith,

I’ve deliberately left Obama’s name out of it in order to keep the partisan aspect out of the discussion, but since it keeps coming up, and since the DOJ is actually a reflection of Obama, what the heck.

Wouldn’t Obama be proud for part of his legacy to be taking down Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Fender guitar companies for “letter of the law” instead of “spirit of the law” violations ?????????????

I bet he’d lose a lot of liberals over that one. If there’s one thing the left and right can agree on, ………. it’s great guitars. One thing that would “seal the deal” would be if some famous left wing musician wearing a “Che Guevara” T-shirt was arrested for trying to enter the country with his vintage Brazilian Rosewood guitar with Madagascar ebony fretboard and bridge, ivory string pins and tuning buttons! LOL.

I wonder if Obama’s clones in the DOJ would be as zealous for his prosecution?

It just blows my mind that these creeps would even have it on their radar.

Since Bob mentioned immigration, maybe they should give this the same amount of attention they give illegal immigration. Turn their heads and pretend it isn’t happening. After all, which is worse, …… ebony fretboards or 12 – 15 million illegals?
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 08:40 PM
Pardon me, but "illegals (who are "clean")...are no longer subject to deportation...
perhaps you haven't all kept up with OBama and Atty. Gen. Eric Holder's decision of last week, waving deportation of all latinos who happen to be esconsed here without papers...
again circumventing American laws.

Might as well also bring up again, as I already have in the posts I've made originating this entire thread, that this twosome gave the CIA (which isn't supposed to be involved
in law domestic matters) the OK to join the big city police departments in co-opting the
growing number of radical muslim cells operating in THIS country.
We are being controlled by a bunch of Constitution-Breaking revolutionaries from the
far left!! Let's just call the Fish & Wildlife Service, along with all the other Fed
Agencies, an affront...getting older and bolder, with OBama and Holder get their way!

WHERE IS OUR WILL POWER TO STAND UP TO GOVERNMENT GOONS, POLITICIANS THAT THREATEN!!!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 09:43 PM
Quote:

WHERE IS OUR WILL POWER TO STAND UP TO GOVERNMENT GOONS, POLITICIANS THAT THREATEN!!!




GDaddy,

I believe it’s right here from the CEO of Gibson:

Quote:

Hundreds of items were seized from Gibson’s Nashville facilities including rosewood and ebony in various forms, shipping documents, travel records, guitars including several Les Pauls, product specifications and hard drives, according to the search warrant. A Memphis facility was also raided Wednesday.

Juszkiewicz said the lost day of productivity could cost the company $1 million.

“What is more troubling is that the Justice Department’s position is that any guitar that we ship out of this facility is potentially obstruction of justice and will be followed with criminal charges,” said Juszkiewicz, who added later that he plans to defy the government and resume operations. “I have taken personal responsibility. I have instructed our staff to continue building product.”




I hope none of you guys have a custom guitar on order from Gibson! Your door may be the next one the Feds kick in!
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/26/11 10:41 PM
The Gibson situation might be the wakeup call for many musicians, but this kind of thing has been going on for quite some time, actually.

Perhaps the greatest absurdity noted here is the guy whom the Feds are trying to make pay a $90,000 fine for raising about 200 dollars worth of RABBITS, without, get this: A Federal License to sell rabbits.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/05/29/feds-fine-nixa-rabbitt-raiser-90k-for-making-200/


--Mac
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 01:36 AM
Way too much government everywhere.

Liberalism. The policies pertaining to a free man.

We've lost sight of that.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 02:25 AM
Doesn't "free trade" mean Gibson is "free" to buy wood wherever the hell they want to? Wasn't that the idea of the whole thing?

My IT job went to India but they are worried where Gibson buys wood?
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 02:48 AM
If this applies to owners of instruments who have to have documentation of the woods used on their guitars, how?
How long ago was this ebony wood protected? I own two 12 string guitars, one is 36 years old and the other is 35.
They both have Ebony fingerboards and one has an Ebony Bridge. I dont recall the use of Ebony being a problem.
I knew about the rosewood. Of course I'm not leaving the country with my guitars but I did buy these guitars new and I still have the User Guides and Brochures and none of them say where the wood came from. It was many years until I found out that Sitka Spruce was Alaska.
There nothing provided with my instuments as to what country the fingerboard woods came from.

I had a 1968 Gibson Les Paul that had an Ebony fingerboard. Was that not legal then and there was nothing that came with the guitar that stated where the fingerboard wood was from.

How can I or anybody document these instruments? These are not 1920s vintage. These guitars were all bought new in my lifetime by me.

I'm stumped.

Wayne,
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 03:45 AM
Quote:

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.



I guess I should be glad I sold all of my vintage instruments.

Anyone wanna defend the Feds after reading this story?




Sorry, I'm not buying Mr. Viellard's problem here. Years ago I had a company that exported cars from Canada to the US. We were dealing with Customs, the EPA, DOT and various State DMV's for titling. We researched the legalities and hired a Customs Broker. Brokers are licensed and bonded and if anything like this goes wrong, they're on the hook unless they can prove their client lied to them and went off on their own.

Six years ago I decided to buy and rebuild a 5'8" Kanabe grand piano. I knew absolutely squat about it but after several months researching it on the internet, I completely disassembled it including destringing, removed the plate, refinished the plate myself, disassembled, repaired and rebuilt the lyre, removed the legs, refinished the soundboard, did the whole thing except for the keyboard action. That I sent out to a tech after I replaced the felts. Then I stained and refinished it in natural mahogany using shellac and French polishing. I learned all this with no woodworking or piano rebuilding background using the internet. I even formed a paper company so I could buy all the proper parts from a couple of piano supply houses who won't sell to the general public. During the course of this I became aware of the ivory problem concerning old piano keys, how you can and can't import them, all that stuff. I simply clicked on a few links and read all about it. I also met some very cool piano rebuilders in the LA area and they knew all about importing old pianos too. If an amateur like me found out about it then a pro like Viellard surely must have known and if he didn't use a customs broker to handle several tens of thousands of antique European pianos then he's a total idiot and I have no sympathy for him. If he did use a Customs broker then this quote is not telling the whole story. He may have been fined and put on probation but he also would have had a nice lawsuit against his broker.

Whether or not all these laws are proper or not or whether there's too much government in our lives and I completely agree there is, is besides the point here. Citizens of this country have had to navigate a byzantine bunch of government agencies and their idiot functionaries for a hundred years complaining all the way. Smart businessmen learn to deal with it, idiots get screwed. That's the way it is. We'll learn where Gibson fits into all this soon enough.

Also, being worried about the Feds coming to your door is not what this is part of the discussion is about. It's about taking an old instrument across an international border. That's when you need all the documentation, not just having it sitting in your house. I'm not defending that situation, it sounds pretty stupid to me but if that's what's happening then everybody just needs to learn to deal with it and hope we can change things after the next election.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 04:16 AM
Wayne,

Quote:

How can I or anybody document these instruments?




You can’t, and neither can the manufacturer. That’s the point. So if you decided to spend the winter traveling abroad with one of your 12 strings, you’d be risking losing your guitar and facing fines or jail time for violation of the Lacey Act.

It wouldn’t take a conviction, …just an accusation. You could probably win in court since you have original documents, but the legal fees would be more than the guitar is worth.

It’s easy to poo poo this type of statement, but if someone had said you’d be fined $90,000 for raising $200 worth of rabbits over the period of a year because you didn’t have a federal license to raise rabbits, …… we would have probably poo poo’d that too.

What really frustrates me is there’s so many people, even on this forum, who are willing to defend ridiculous laws that prosecute American citizens and companies for violation of laws in other countries. Especially when the other country isn’t even pushing for prosecution, as in the Gibson case.

This country was founded on the principle of taking the government to task, especially when it’s wrong. Just because there’s a law against something doesn’t make it wrong. Just illegal.

We’d all probably be surprised at how many laws we’ve broken without even knowing it. Even in our bedrooms! LOL. But ignorance is no excuse!
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 04:32 AM
Bob,

Quote:

Whether or not all these laws are proper or not or whether there's too much government in our lives and I completely agree there is, is besides the point here.




I disagree. That's exactly the point here, ... at least for me.

There has to be a breaking point where people say "enough is enough"! Change in the oval office would help, ... but it's not a fix. The occupent can change every four years. There needs to be a change that doesn't rely on who's in office.

The only way to do that is change the law. Pointing out a stupid law and refusing to support it is a good start to doing that, but getting a law changed is another thing entirely. Shucks, ...... it takes an act of Congress! It's a lot easier to put a law on the books than it is to take it off, (because that means they have to admit they were wrong in the first place for passing it).

The Feds, state and local officials all make decisions every day about which laws they are going to enforce. If they know they'll lose their jobs or have the public turn on them for enforcing a particular law, they don't enforce it.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 05:04 AM
(Okay, … I’m on a rant, …but it’s against government intrusion in our lives).

Bob,

I’m surprised that you’re willing to support a law just because it’s on the books. (Sorry, ... but if a law is stupid, ...everyone should disobey it just out of principle. I'm not a "rule of law" kinda guy.) If enough people contacted their representatives about it, …… the case would “magically” go away. (Once again, ... selective enforcement). I couldn’t possibly care less about whether Gibson is guilty or not. That was never my point. It is whether the Feds should be devoting resources to prosecute Gibson for violating India's laws, ... whenever India thinks of Gibson as a good customer. It's a political agenda by the Obama administration. Not a worthwhile use of federal resources.

Even a jury doesn't have to rule according to the law in their decisions, even if they know the defendant is guilty of the charges. (Selective enforcement again.)

Civil disobedience is another founding principle of this country. The Boston Tea Party was illegal as it gets, but it sparked a movement that changed a nation. (Disclaimer: No, …… I’m not a member of the Tea Party). It was another case of people not supporting a law because they knew it was wrong.

It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 11:19 AM
*edit sorry so long -
My little home town did a little civil disobedience last week. It was fun, and got the point across, I think. It was a beautiful thing that pulled the community together in a staggering way, It was really amazing. Federal government authority tried to shutdown a free fun volunteer event that used to consist of a couple hundred people getting together to float down the river. Once they started to press charges on people and make it illegal to float, it tuned into an event where 2500 people showed up to float, 10,000 showed up along the river to watch, and local businesses had bands playing along the river, beer tents, you name it. It was a party with a purpose. People even ran volunteer shuttles from the end point back to where cars were parked.

The coast guard went as far as to shutdown the river, meaning no boating volunteers could show up to help (of which there were always dozens; there has never been a fatality or serious injury in 20 years due to volunteers and now they had excluded them). They said only law enforcement boats could be out there, so the thousands of sspectators were there with cameras in hand to see how law enforcement was going to handle it. Happy to say with this kind of pressure they simply helped people that floated out too far. Even the ones that floated across to Canada accidently. They even ended neeeding a helicopter to keep an eye on all the floaters that showed up.
It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 12:32 PM
Quote:

It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.





and herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"

And in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law (based on the majority's idea of what is right)

[rant]
Unfortunately, the majority seems to be overruled at every turn by judges attempting to legislate from the bench.

When a few powerful people override the will of the many, that ain't democracy, that's oligarchy, and its just a step away from the dark ages when the nobles had total control of the peasants, and the peasants had no voice at all.
[/rant]
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 12:52 PM
regarding the law about "unfinished product" leaving the country...

One company's "finished product" is another company's "raw material"

The company whose finished product is iron ore, sells it to the steel mill.
To the steel mill the ore is not finished, it is a resource. AT the end of the steel mill's process, their final product is steel in one form or another

Other businesses buy the steel as a resource for their products, for example, car parts. Which get sold to other companies who use the parts to make assemblies, which get sold to other companies who buy the assemblies and make complete cars.

Bottom line is, which product is the finished product? It depends on your company's charter. If your company starts with whole trees and processes them to a point where specialty sizes of wood are sold to other manufacturers, then what you sell is your company's finished product.

If the question of "final product" is the crux of this government action, that's just crazy!! ESPECIALLY regarding chunks of wood! Such a law, if interpreted the way it appears to be interpreted in this case, would effectively prevent all export of wood or other natural resources

(bonus question: "what is the end product of government intervention?")
[ ] the good of the citizens
[ ] the control of the citizens
[ ] other ________________________
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 02:48 PM
I was researching this law a little bit. Apparently, the Lacey Act of 1900 (designed to protect species from overhunting and prevent the interstate transportation of certain plants) was expanded in 2008 to include logging.
I was afraid I was going to have to blame this on Bush but...


He vetoed the Farm Bill that this expansion was attached to. Twice! (Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008.)

Bush's veto was overridden by congress.

Yep. Guitar players can truly blame the democrats for this mess. For the record, I am the proud owner of two fantastic, American-made Gibson electric guitars.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 03:03 PM
Fear the government that fears your guitars.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 03:05 PM
If our elected officials would honor and support the US Constitution, most if not all of these kind of problems could not exist.

The Constitution needs to be honored, followed, obeyed - and *ENFORCED* ACROSS THE BOARD.

Any other situation is headed towards a situation that will be very ugly, I'm afraid.

History shows us that tyrants always underestimate the power of the good people.

While sitting out this storm, I took advantage of it to let my two grandsons view my copy of, "The Patriot" last night. With a little bit of explanation and explaining from Grandpa along the way through. Funny how the kids get it right away. I guess it takes years of sorry schooling and maybe a post graduate degree before equivocation replaces decision process.


--Mac
Posted By: KeithS Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 04:11 PM
Quote:



Wouldn’t Obama be proud for part of his legacy to be taking down Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Fender guitar companies for “letter of the law” instead of “spirit of the law” violations ?????????????





Filing false docunents us not a letter of the law vs a spirit of the law violation and Martin, Fender and Taylor have not been accused of any wrong doing.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 04:30 PM
Rharv,

Quote:

It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.




Way to go rharv! That’s exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. It’s great to see a community rally together and remind authorities who they actually work for.
………………………………………………………..

Pat,

Quote:

herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"




Glad to see you weigh in. Rharv’s communities civil disobedience is a perfect example of doing what is right vs. what is legal, so I don’t think it needs much comment, especially since I’ve been talking so much.

Quote:

in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law




I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.

Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:

Quote:

In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.




Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.

Shifting gears a little, your treatise on “finished product” vs. “raw materials” was spot on and fits the Gibson situation perfectly.
……………………………………………………………….

Mac,

“The Patriot” is one of my all time favorite movies and should be required viewing in our schools. It lays out the sacrifices and hard decisions made by our forefathers better than anything I’ve ever seen.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 04:48 PM
Keith,

Quote:

Some facts that the Gibson Press release fails to mention:




You appear to be assuming that Gibson is guilty, while I’m assuming they are innocent. I think the truth will be found to be similar to what Pat Marr laid out in his definition of “finished goods” vs. “raw materials”. Hence, my letter of the law vs. spirit of the law comment.

My inclusion of Martin, Taylor and Fender is simply a logical extension of “who’s next” on the government hit list if they’re successful in their assault on Gibson.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 06:16 PM
This is the "wood" version of RIAA suing grandmothers to make a statement to the public.

If this government has nothing better to do than raid a company like Gibson but NOT raid Fender, Martin, Taylor etc.... then this is selective enforcement meant to send a message. Go after the biggest "drug dealer" and the little guys on the street corner will get the message too.

Economy slow? Let's invent reasons to collect fines from people. Let's see what we can do to chase ANOTHER business out of the USA and have them move to some place where the laws are a little less draconian.

I really hate authority.

This is the same government that killed 58,000 of my comrades in Vietnam and sprayed the rest of us with Agent Orange, which caused diabetes in many of us? And that same government that now treats us like crap when we need their help? Now they want to ruin our guitars?
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 06:22 PM
Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...


--Mac
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 06:37 PM
Quote:

Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...


--Mac




Hmmmm... Mr Kennedy, then Mr Johnson, and it ended when Mr Nixon got in. And now we are back to "Let's keep them employed as soldiers rather than bring them back to no jobs, all while keeping people who make guns, bullets, boots, vehicles, uniforms, and prepacked meals working..."

Another "Hmmmm"......

Wasn't part of the last campaign "We will end the war. Democrat = no war, Republican = more war"? Seems like in his 3rd year at the helm, we are still there..... wouldn't that amount to "My whole sales pitch was a lie"?
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 08:53 PM
Gibson used to use Brazilian rosewood until importation of that wood was banned.
Importation of Brazilian Rosewood was banned in 1992 until CITES (some exceptions to be discussed). It was and is considered the king of tonewoods for acoustic guitars, both because of its tonal qualities and the wonderful chocolate brown color with great swirling grain. All of those $200,000 -$500,000+ pre-war Martin D-28s that are considered the Stradivarius of acoustic guitars are Brazilian Rosewood with Adirondack Spruce tops (with forward-shifted bracing).

Again, although Gibson used some Brazilian Rosewood, Gibson's always been more into maple and mahogany acoustic guitars.

It's still possible to get Brazilian (lower-quality Brazilian) at a high price, but the luthier has to have a lot of paperwork showing that the wood came from a tree cut down before 1992. That era of getting Brazilian from old stumps is an era that's pretty well passed, however.

Madagascar Rosewood was illegal to import (under Madagascar rules, I believe) for years, but a coup made it possible to get some into the country over the last decade or so. It's the closest thing, tonally and in looks, to Brazilian that we've seen.

East Indian is nice, but nothing like Madagascar or Brazilian Rosewood.

All of that is said with respect to using the wood as a tonewood, and not just as a fretboard or the veneer on a headstock.

And using Franklin Titebond instead of hide glue makes a difference, I believe. Think of pulling away old white glue. It still has a rubbery feel to it. Hide glue is brittle. When you want to transfer vibration from one wood component to another, rubbery white glue, no matter how well cured and now matter how thin the coat, dampens the vibration. That's what I hear from luthiers and based on guitars I have that are made with hide glue, I believe I can hear the difference.

Not to get technical but C.F. Martin Guitars are not a competitor of Gibson guitars.
C.F. Martin makes acoustic guitars exclusively. Gibson does not, they mainly make Electric Guitars. From the famous Les Paul model to the popular 'SG' model, the 'Flying Vee', and the semi-hollow body ES-335 'Dot', and like BB King's ES-345 'Lucille'.

The competitor for Gibson is Fender Guitars and their Stratocaster and Telecaster models. Many famous players like Eric Clapton start out with the Gibson Les Paul then switch to the Fender 'Strat' for the different sound a Strat makes. (Clapton's Fender Strat 'Blackie' sold at an auction at Christie's in London for a whopping $959,000!)
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 08:56 PM
Quote:

Quote:

in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law




I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.

Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:

Quote:

In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.




Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.






for what it's worth Bob, I chose my words carefully. Note in the quote above that I did NOT say we are a DEMOCRACY but that we are a "democratic society" (Which basically means the people get to vote). I'm quite aware that the USA is not a pure democracy. The point that I was trying to make is that a government "of the people by the people and for the people" should not have laws that the people don't want shoved down their throats.

Since it is impossible to please everybody all the time, I added the word MAJORITY assuming that elected officials should theoretically represent their constituents, which theoretically should be the majority most (but not all) of the time.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/27/11 10:59 PM
Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.

Take care.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 02:37 AM
All the acoustic guitars I've owned have had Rosewood sides and backs except for one Gibson J-45.
I had no idea that Brazilian Rosewood was legal up until 1992. I may have an acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood. How would I tell?

I just know that when I shopped around for my Marin HD28 I played dozens of them and disliked all of them for the price. I bought mine from Gruhn Guitars in Nashville over the phone and it is still the best acoustic guitar I ever played. I know it was built around 1989-1990. I wonder what kind of Rosewood it is. It's very dark brown.

Is Brazilian Rosewood more prone to small cracks? I did have one problem with the side having a small split starting. Matin fixed it and put in side bracing which I see is now in all newer HD28s.

Wayne,
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 03:11 AM
Wayne,

I pulled the spec sheet from my custom Martin that I had built in 1992 to double check the rosewood. Since the guitar is custom made to specs, it doesn’t have a model number, it just has CUSTOM stamped where the model number goes. Essentially, it’s a HD28 with an oversized sound hole with double herringbone rosettes, extended fretboard (2 extra frets), Venetian cutaway and 1940’s style scalloped bracing. If it had a model #, it would be HDC282R.

Oops, …………sorry, you didn’t ask about my guitar, but I love that sucker!

The wood Martin used on both of our guitars is Indian Rosewood and is a beautiful and great sounding hardwood. Perfectly legal and a fantastic alternative to Brazilian. Another great and more beautiful alternative is Cocobolo. It’s a Central American hardwood.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 01:16 PM
Hi Bob,
Your Martin sounds like a real keeper.
I remember how long it took me to find mine. I tried so many D28s and they didn't sound good for me.
Most of the HD28s I tried weren't for me, but when I found mine, I knew it was for me.
As soon as I got it I put on a set of my favorite strings. From the first chords I was in love and I still am.
I had a lot of acoustics on my life and they all just came and went. Some were very good ones, but my Martin was the first and now the only one I ever play. I had an under saddle tranducer put in and it took me almost 5 years for me to have it installed. I was just so afraid it would change the tone.
Also Martin's warranty is the best in the world.
Glad to hear about your Martin. It's great to have a guitar that makes you happy.
Every guitar I have now I bought new. It's amazing how I think of my Telecaster as my new electric guitar and it's 23 years old already.
One of my 12 Strings is from 1977. Time sure does fly.

Thanks for the info on the Indian Rosewood. It sounds great.
Wayne,
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 02:06 PM
Quote:

Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.

Take care.




Bob,
your reply was more gracious than mine. Thanks for your good will.
Apologies for my sharp reply...
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 03:00 PM
Only play country music on it that ought to piss off the dems

PAT:
I still have my XV-5080, with some boards in it. Key part of my hardware!

Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 03:17 PM
My old L-5CES is likely loaded with now outlawed tonewoods.

But my response is exactly the same as when anyone tries to take *anything* of mine away, be it gun, guitar, wife, children or even the old family bible, for that matter:

You want it?

Come and get it.

Then we shall soon see how BAD you want it.

Read into that what you will.

But never, never tread on me.


--Mac
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/28/11 05:53 PM
Quote:


PAT:..
I still have my XV-5080, with some boards in it. Key part of my hardware!






It's old technology, but I still love my XV-3080! ... it has 3 expansion boards, room for several more, built-in effects, more features and capability than I can begin to comprehend, built-in routing to send different tracks to different output jacks, plenty of excellent upper bank patches, an editor to tweak the patches, a bunch of pre-settable performances, total control of every feature via MIDI CC, and more polyphony than some of Roland's later sound modules.

Plus, they seem to last forever and you can still get them on Ebay for a very low price. When I switched from stomp boxes to rack gear it was a reasonably priced choice that fit my schema.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/29/11 11:46 PM
Interview with the CEO. 30 minutes of it.

http://youtu.be/O_-taqM5Sk0
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 03:25 AM
Eddie,

Thanks for posting this. I watched the whole thing and I wish I’d gotten a note pad and pencil ready for the interview.

A few things stuck out, (speaking from the Gibson CEO POV, aka boss man's point of view).

A summarization of Mr. Juszkiewicz comments follows:

1. The “WTF” expression is extremely hard to wipe off my face!

2. The Lacey Act is hard to understand, …… especially since they keep changing it!

3. We’ve tried really hard to comply with the ever changing Lacey Act!

4. They won’t even tell us what we’re accused of doing!

5. Swat teams are inappropriate for raiding a guitar company! Are we gonna “shoot back” with a Les Paul, or smack'em with an ebony fingerboard?

6. I wish the hell I’d had our lawyer do this interview because I don’t have a friggin’ clue about what we alledgedly did wrong!

7. We just wanna make great guitars!

If you guys can make time, … please watch this interview. It's the perfect example of an American business trying like hell to comply with international law. Jeez!
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 07:08 AM
I just read an article in the September 27, 2010, issue of "Forbes" magazine that finally and definitively reveals where Obama is coming from. The short version is that he is, in fact, consciously and deliberately trying to destroy American exceptionalism based on the anticolonial revolutionary aspirations of his father, who was a dedicated capital-C Communist. Basically he is punishing the United States for having succeeded. Everything, including the action against Gibson, makes sense in the context of this outlook. Bold text is a link.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 09:49 AM
Quote:

. It's the perfect example of an American business trying like hell to comply with international law. Jeez!




So this poses the question:

Do American companies move work overseas just because they're so greedy they aren't willing to pay American workers...?

Or do they leave to escape American business constraints? (and more recently, the constraints placed on American businesses by other countries)
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 11:58 AM
yes
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 12:54 PM
Hang in there...the "WIND OF CHANGE" IS GOING TO TRANSFORM THIS COUNTRY..FOR THE BETTER!WINDS OF CHANGE are acomin'...

Inspiring Music for thismoring's MOMENT....WATCH BIG SCREEN/HI-FI!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KcRl1p2waM&feature=fvwrel

Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 04:41 PM
Quote:

I just read an article in the September 27, 2010, issue of "Forbes" magazine that finally and definitively reveals where Obama is coming from. The short version is that he is, in fact, consciously and deliberately trying to destroy American exceptionalism based on the anticolonial revolutionary aspirations of his father, who was a dedicated capital-C Communist. Basically he is punishing the United States for having succeeded. Everything, including the action against Gibson, makes sense in the context of this outlook. Bold text is a link.




Seems like it might be a very biased political publication, and not one based on much substantiated or factual evidence.

Here's another good one:
http://commieblaster.com/

As I recall, the US government debt was about 14 trillion by 2008 - being incurred by the previous administrations, both Democrat and Republican. Obama was not elected when the crash of 2008 occurred, but the economy was a disaster by summer - the previous administration was busily bailing out Goldman Sachs etc BEFORE the election). My own take is that if Obama had been really astute, he would have withdrawn from the presidential election. In fact, I had said this to friends and family well before the election (why would anyone want to be president and inherit this mess?).

The personal debt of citizens of the USA is actually considerably higher than that of the US government.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Not a lot of music in this topic, but it keeps people singing the blues.

Glenn
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 05:05 PM
"the previous (Bush Administration was...."

Now, now.....

Wall Street Mess WAS The Fault Of Democrats...
The Democrats are doing what they do best, and that is blaming anyone but themselves for the economic bubble burst which was precipitated by the downturn in the housing market and now with Lehman Brothers.

It started in 1977 with the Worst.President.
In 1977, Carter, along with a Democrat Congress, created a worthy project with noble intentions — the Community Reinvestment Act. Over strong industry objections, it mandated that all banks meet the credit needs of their entire communities.

In 1995, President Clinton imposed even stronger regulations and performance tests that coerced banks to substantially increase loans to low-income, poverty-area borrowers or face fines or possible restrictions on expansion. These revisions allowed for securitization of CRA loans containing subprime mortgages.
By 1997, good loans were bundled with poor ones and sold as prime packages to institutions here and abroad. That shifted risk from the loan originators, freeing banks to begin pyramiding and make more of these profitable subprime products.

Under two young, well-intended presidents, therefore, big-government plans and mandates played a significant role in the current sub-prime mortgage mess and its catastrophic consequences for the U.S. and international economies.

Hardest-hit by the mortgage foreclosures have been the citizens that Democrats always claim to help most — inner-city residents who fell victim to low or no down payment schemes, unexpected adjustable rates, deceptive loan applications and commission-hungry salespeople.

Now we're having to bail out at huge cost Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the very agencies that were supposed to stabilize the system....recently thy asked for more bailout money for themselves!

Democrats are fond of using the word "deregulation" as an evil term, at least when something is deregulated under a Republican Administration.

But this is exactly what Carter and Clinton did, they deregulated the mortgage industry and, to a lesser extent, the banking and financial sectors of the market. Dem "deregulation" brings the results we now see taking place.

Oh well, the hurricane was God's punishment...wasn't it???

Carter and Clinton and their band of Little Socialists forced lenders to provide risky loans for people who didn't financially qualify for the loans
Posted By: pgmoderation Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/30/11 05:22 PM
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Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 12:16 AM
Good one.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 12:19 AM
I guess they decided to unlock it.
Posted By: JimA Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 12:32 AM
I think the government is getting hyper technical in its reliance on arcane theories of International Law. Besides, it's not like Gibson did anything really harmful to society...like playing a harmonic interval of a tritone.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 12:38 AM
I'm Keyser Söze............shhhhh
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 01:30 AM
Sincere thanks to the moderator and to PG Music for unlocking this discussion. It is a subject which interests us vitally. While there is strong feeling attached to the matter, I believe that its expression is in accord with, but quite moderate in comparison to, the nature of the actions we are witnessing.

Richard
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 06:23 AM
Well, I will attempt to stay out of the political fray, but I hope that Gibson is keeping track of serial numbers during this time of defiance. Reason: I'm hoping that I can purchase a 'defiance' model sometime in the future - in show of support.

I'm also proud to say that Mr. Juskiewicz (sp?) hails from my alma mater, General Motors Institute. I wish he had given me a job back about 10 years ago when I chatted with his administrative assistant while trying to get an audience with him. Either he is an extremely level headed guy, or a great actor.

I have a made in China SX bass guitar with a rosewood fingerboard for which I paid a grand total of 150 bucks or so, shipped to my door, in a gig bag and properly packed for shipment.

I've crowed here and there about how great of a deal it was.

You can be darned sure that nobody is raiding SX over in China about the rosewood fretboards on all of their guitars!

Just plain crazy!

This will end up in the Supreme Court, nearly certain of that. But then again, what about the raid from 2 years ago for which there are still no charges and inventoried wood held in hostage?

Do we think there will be any recompense to Gibson for lost income? No way. And who would pay anyways?

There is some untold story underneath all of this and I don't mean some right wing / left wing thing. It's too singular for that.

Smells like someone is calling in a favor for someone else for something shady. I doubt that will ever see the the light of day.

For those of you thinking it's this guy's politics; here's some of the charitable organizations that he is involved in. Please read the ENTIRE list, all the way to the bottom.

Following text pulled from CNBC at this location: http://www.cnbc.com/id/22402401

"Juszkiewicz is a committed supporter of The Rainforest Alliance and conservation. A member of the Society of International Business Fellows and others, Juszkiewicz continues his commitment to a better world through his active participation in organizations such as Nordoff-Robbins, which provides music therapy for severely handicapped children, to the T.J. Martell Fund for Leukemia Research, The Hope Foundation, The Environmental Defense Fund, Teenage Cancer Trust and leads numerous philanthropic endeavors under the Gibson Foundation banner. He is a board member of the Country Music Hall of Fame, a board member of the Beale Street Blues Company, Inc., a board member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum and Executive Vice President of the Guitar and Accessories Marketing Association. He is a co-founder of Music Rising, a campaign to help aid musicians of the Gulf Coast and is active in the Clinton Global Initiative. He is the recipient of numerous awards, honors and extensive media coverage."

Mr. Juskiewicz talks about in the interview that he's not about Republicans vs. Democrats, but he's about doing what's right for America. Study the list. His support of both right and left leaning organizations bear witness to his claims. Check out who his co-founders are for Music Rising. Read what the Clinton Global Initiative is all about.

The questions we all have to ask ourselves are along these lines: Do we want to see Gibson around for the future? What are we going to do about it in addition to letting others know about it online?

I've never bought a Gibson. To be honest I can't get on with tune-o-matic bridges too well; at least the little bit that I've tried. But I want to see this icon of the American music industry live on. I don't want to be party to seeing it disappear over these recent guilty-until-proven-innocent raids.

But I can write some letters and make some calls. Hit me up on my website for my e-mail if you want to see the letter I just wrote to my former senator, Carl Levin. That way, it doesn't bog down the PG bulletin board with private messages. I'd write to my current senators, but they don't carry the weight that guys like Levin do.

Let's get over who is in the Oval Office and help save Gibson if possible. If this goes on too long, it might be over for them.

-Scott
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 10:11 AM
I apologize for my going off on a political rant, as I am "want to do"...both to PG
and to the people I offended.

Glad to see this thread back "on track"!!

No more politics discussion from G-Daddy!!
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 12:53 PM
Geez, I'm, / we are Canadian eh. Lets go for ...beer? Good idea eh? The religious types can have the root kind. We even have a few of those A&W's here. No more roller skates for the lasses and you can't wait in your car. That would be too good eh? Problem here was for 1/2 the year the root beers froze on the outdoor tray. I never understood how it was always summer in Bedrock until I spotted the palm trees. I should have known all cave men lived in Florida.
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 02:41 PM
From the "King of Snide Remarks"......Cavemen in Florida!?
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 02:52 PM
Ah, I long for the good old days before Obama when everything was US made!
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 03:27 PM
Quote:

Ah, I long for the good old days before Obama when everything was US made!




You're lucky that it's only been three years - we've been buying stuff made in China for at least ten or fifteen years. Maybe it was Ronnie, or Billy or Dubious that started it.

On the other hand, we do have choices in what we buy; if we didn't buy foreign made goods, I wonder how long they would be imported? Do you think we should be looking in the mirror?

Glenn
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 03:32 PM
I think some reading of ye olde Adam Smith is warranted prior to jumping in that pool Glen. The Wealth of Nations.
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 04:17 PM
Pgmoderation as a user has made 16 posts. Wow.
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 04:32 PM
A&W in Lexington, just north of Port Huron still does the car-hop thing. Pretty cool. It's where a lot of people take their collector cars to hang out.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 05:12 PM
China Buys Its Chopsticks From A Small Georgia Town
Georgia Chopsticks is already producing 2 million chopsticks each day. They're selling their craft primarily to Chinese supermarkets but also are helping hungry people in Japan, Korea and the U.S.
China doen't have the wood. The Georgia Chopsticks Company is gearing up to make 4 million a day to meet increased demand. All unprotected woods!
The US is also the world's largest manufacturer of socks.
We make bowling balls too. There's no Bowling Ball shortage though.

Wayne,
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 05:35 PM
Quote:

Quote:

Ah, I long for the good old days before Obama when everything was US made!




You're lucky that it's only been three years - we've been buying stuff made in China for at least ten or fifteen years. Maybe it was Ronnie, or Billy or Dubious that started it.

On the other hand, we do have choices in what we buy; if we didn't buy foreign made goods, I wonder how long they would be imported? Do you think we should be looking in the mirror?

Glenn




The downfall of communism was the greatest single factor in wrecking our economy. Now we have Russia, China, and the old soviet republics all competing with us. The US was better off when those places were communist. THEY weren't, but WE were.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 05:37 PM
It's hard to find ANYTHING that US made. I have trouble believing we produce even socks but have not checked it out.

I bought a Canadian guitar! Simon & Patrick. Love it.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 06:00 PM
New Balance is the only sneaker manufacturer still making shoes in the US.
Nike and Reebok have banded together to get the US import duty removed.
If they succeed, New Balance will be out of business.
Nike and Reebok feel they need even more profit at the expense of American Workers and business.
So much greed.
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 07:08 PM
Got a pair of those on right now!
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 08/31/11 07:16 PM
Quote:

New Balance is the only sneaker manufacturer still making shoes in the US.
Nike and Reebok have banded together to get the US import duty removed.
If they succeed, New Balance will be out of business.
Nike and Reebok feel they need even more profit at the expense of American Workers and business.
So much greed.





It is greed indeed but that is what fuels capitalism. Greed and waste. Buy it, wear it out quickly, throw it away and buy another one. Now we're approaching world-wide capitalism. We loved it when the US, Canada, and the UK were winning. We've taught our old enemies the game and they're beating us now.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 02:13 AM
Quote:

I apologize for my going off on a political rant, as I am "want to do"...both to PG
and to the people I offended.

Glad to see this thread back "on track"!!

No more politics discussion from G-Daddy!!




Yeah, you and me both my friend. The political talk was pretty mild but we've all seen it get out of hand in a New York minute. I can see why the mods jumped in and that's cool. The basic story is good enough and I'm happy they unlocked this thread because it is music related we all just have to <gasp> bite our tongues. It's getting some radio airplay, it got about ten minutes on Mark Levine's show yesterday.

I'm very interested to see how this turns out. Is it really the pres...AH, AH, no, <slap> sorry

Bob
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 02:23 AM
Well, to the guy who was staunchly defending Obama, whoever that was, okay, look. Nobody thinks Obama woke up on some random day and said "Today is the day we raid Gibson. Go get 'em!!!" The point is that there are a LOT of bigger fish to fry here to be hassling Gibson on the presumption that SOME wood used to build SOME guitars MIGHT have MAYBE come into the country in a gray area of an archaic import/export law. Any wrongdoing would have happened on the exporter side of the transaction. Go hassle them.

Can't he redirect that energy, manpower and financial resource into trying to slow or stop the flow of illegal drugs from Columbia and Mexico? Cocaine and crack have ruined a lot more lives than a Gibson guitar with a fingerboard made from allegedly illegal ebony will. THAT is what made this whole event BS. Nothing else to do then send a SWAT team in full battle gear into a plant full of AMERICANS building instruments for people in a performing art to buy and use to create music?
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 02:38 AM
Bob,

Kudos to you and GDaddy! I do think it’s important and we shouldn’t let this issue get sidetracked by a political rant or bias. Thanks to PG for realizing that.

As far as I’m concerned, we should leave mentioning the parties of Democrats or Republicans to other forums. It’s sufficient to mention the “feds” and how they’re trying to railroad Gibson. All parties are guilty of using federal power to strong arm small businesses.

If you wanna contact your elected officials, start here:

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

I have them on speed dial, (seriously).

Tell them what you think about the Gibson situation. I have.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 02:46 AM
Eddie,

We’d probably get farther by leaving Barak Hussein’s name out of it, and simply refer to “this administration” or something to that effect. Most folks will get the meaning, and maybe PG won’t shut us down again.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 03:02 AM
Quote:

I have them on speed dial, (seriously).




You have telephones where you live? You put it in right after the indoor plumbing?

How many other offensive stereotypes about West Virginia can I come up with? Let's put 20 seconds on the clock please....

I will never forget the first time I was driving through WV heading to Florida (usually I fly) and saw signs that were spaced out along 77 that read


When you travel

In our state

Buckle up

And don't temp fate


And my first thought was "I wonder if EVERYBODY who drives past those signs gets the play that it is a takeoff on Burma Shave signs from years gone by?" AND, I also wondered how many people are just DYING to put up that 5th sign that SAYS "Burma Shave"?

Now I drove down that way in late winter to go to the Monongahela National Forest but I didn't see those signs anymore. That is some beautiful country right through there. Took my dog down at the end of winter when we had the place to ourselves and let her sniff her little heart out tracking deer. Caught a nice crisp 40-ish degree day with bright sunshine and did a lot of walking and enjoying nature.

And the next day coming home it rained like it was never going to stop.

How does it all relate to the thread? Don't we have trees in the US to make guitars from? One luthier here in town goes to North Carolina somewhere to buy a tree every other year or so with an eye on 10 years into the future when that tree will be ready to use. I know we don't grow those exotic hardwoods, but man, if they are going to cause problems let's find American solutions.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 03:33 AM
Eddie,

Quote:

How many other offensive stereotypes about West Virginia can I come up with? Let's put 20 seconds on the clock please....




Trust me, … I’ve heard them all. And jokes are only funny if there’s an element of truth in them! Some of them are hilarious. ("Stereotypes" are only "stereotypes" because they are true!) Or so said a comedian I once heard.

Take for example, several years ago when WV passed a law making it legal to eat your “road kill”, and I knew I was going to be in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati the next week on business, I prepared for the visit by doing some google searches.

Turns out, it had been legal in Ohio to eat your road kill many YEARS before WV ever thought about it. I let my customers have some fun at my expense, … and then informed them about the OH law. They got a kick out of it.

Actually, .. we, (West Virginian's), didn’t think about it, … we just loaded up that deer, (aka SOB), into the pickup and BBQ’d his ass as soon as we got him home! ;-)

My point was to leave Obama, Communists, Democrats, Socialists and Marxist’s, (in no particular order, ......since it doesn't really matter, ......6 of one, ... a half dozen of the other), out of the discussion so as not to offend our Canadian friends at PG.

I'm gonna make every effort to do that! Please do the same. The point is easily made without mentioning names.
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 03:37 AM
You mean North American right EE?

We've got spare wood now that hockey sticks are made of 'stuff'.

I suspect they are not sticks anymore.

Pawlitics. I took that. I still don't get it, except I think of it as powerlaticks.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 04:49 AM
Quote:

Don't we have trees in the US to make guitars from? One luthier here in town goes to North Carolina somewhere to buy a tree every other year or so with an eye on 10 years into the future when that tree will be ready to use. I know we don't grow those exotic hardwoods, but man, if they are going to cause problems let's find American solutions.




I have a "Wish" fretless Hyperbass* that I used to use as my avatar.** It is made by Steve Wishnevsky*** in North Carolina exclusively of U.S. tonewoods, with the possible exception of a layer of purpleheart sandwiched into the body. (I could be wrong on that.) The fingerboard is persimmon, which he refers to as "American ebony." It is a unique grayish color. The neck and body are persimmon(!), mahogany, and maple. The bridge and nut are Corian--yup, Countertops R Us. I may replace the bridge with a Badass or some such, but it will be of U.S. manufacture.

*Now "Hipper" bass--trademark thing with Zon musical instruments.
**And will again, if I ever figure out how to post images to this site, which has become ridiculously difficult.
***wishbass.com. You should see his site. He has a rather unique approach to luthiery and marketing.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 04:50 AM
Quote:

Well, to the guy who was staunchly defending Obama, . . .






I can't find anyone defending Barack Obama, let alone staunchly defending him. But maybe my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.

Glenn
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 05:34 AM
C’mon guys and gals! Let’s get back to the subject!

It’s criminal what the “Feds” are doing to Gibson.

Call your reps in the Congress and the Senate!

Here’s the numbers for your state.

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

I wasn’t kidding about having them on speed dial, regardless of party. (They almost recognize my voice). Tell them that what the “Feds” are doing to Gibson is unacceptable!
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 06:09 AM
Anyone want a bushel of walnuts, I have them. The stupid squirrels won't eat them in that tree, they have to dine over my deck. If you ever stepped on a recently chewed in half peeled walnut that stuff is harder than steel. I can't cut a walnut, so my son went on the roof and picked and knocked off a bushel.

I guess I have to take a drive tomorrow. Hip permitting. Or call the other son with the cars. Hmmm...then I can take my grandson so we can pound on the piano and signing "she's wearing pink pajamas when she comes." I was going to substitute 'she's wearing trick gear when she comes', but my son's mother in law might get me.

That tree is about 15 inches around and straight until 16 feet. Not quite ready for the Husquavarna. I'll have it milled and stacked and flog the thing, stump branches et al...
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 06:32 AM
John,

You never did update us on the "wacky tobacky" pills. Are they helping?

Did you try the real thing? I hope you're doing better, ... whatever the reason. Take care.
Posted By: redguitars Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 10:15 AM
Did Obama himself order this raid on Gibson?
Wayne,
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 10:43 AM
Nobody did. Nobody ordered that guns be sold to Mexican drug cartels, either. It is a mystery.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 12:39 PM
Quote:

Did Obama himself order this raid on Gibson?
Wayne,





Well, he got Bin Laden so maybe he got bored?
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 04:17 PM
Helped quite a bit for about 3 weeks, they are going to up the size, Cheech and Chong are making them up. (LOL)

The doc asked me after a week and I told him the damn I gave after taking the pill was less than the one I gave before.

He told me I should make that a slogan.

I just got back from going for groceries. Forgot the cane. Stopped and got a double expresso and going out the door someone was coming in an texting so I had to stop, auto door hits me in the back, the coffee goes all down my shirt, I fall flat on my face. Had to come home to change.

On the plus side BP shingles have approved my warranty claim and I'm getting 4 out of 5k to re-shingle the house and 'garage'. So I'm singing My Way, at least for that because I think my letter scared them into the possible class action like the one against another company here. 25 year shingles that were good for 9. Right.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 05:16 PM
Holy cow.

Quote:

Update: Gibson Guitar CEO Says Feds Told Him Problems Would ‘Go Away’ if Labor Done in Madagascar (Updated With Beck Interview)


The tale of the Gibson guitar raid — the one focused on the legendary guitar maker’s alleged importation and use of illegal wood — has taken an odd turn. Now CEO Henry Juszkiewicz is claiming the Feds told him that some of his problems “would go away” if the company used Madagascar labor.

In an interview with Beck radio affiliate KMJ 105.9 in Fresno, California, Juszkiewicz told host Chris Daniel that the government made the point “explicitly:”

CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?
HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes, yeah. They said that explicitly.




http://www.theblaze.com/stories/update-g...-to-madagascar/

Be sure to listen to the interview at the bottom of the page. Glen Beck interviewed him today.

So the Feds are actually TRYING to eliminate US jobs. They even put it in writing.
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 06:39 PM
I plan to become a pile of ashes. I suppose they will be acidic.

A nice pristine lake with a view. Sparkles like diamonds, and many shades of green.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 08:18 PM
I have to say Bob I'm trying to keep a neutral attitude about this because in my work I've been involved in several federal court cases and I know how complex they can be. The issues are not as simple as some of these articles would lead you to believe. It sucks but to say that "so and so is doing the same thing and he's not being prosecuted!" doesn't get you off the hook. They may or may not go after the other guy when they're finished with you.

Having said that I don't like what I'm reading at all. I read the WSJ article and others and it sure looks like regulations run amok. Maybe if there's enough publicity about this the feds will be forced to drop it as long as it really is just a ticky tack technicality and not blatent illegal importation of the wood. Sort of like what the TSA was forced to do after that poor woman was stipped searched because she had just been discharged from the hospital with some metal in her chest after a mastectomy operation. It took a few months but TSA changed their rules.

Bob
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/01/11 11:07 PM
A quote from this link:

http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/25/doj-raids-gibson-guitars-looking-for-illegal-wood/

"In an affidavit, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents in June detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India.

The paperwork accompanying the shipment identified it fraudulently as Indian ebony fingerboards for guitars and it did not say it was going to Gibson, the affidavit said.
"

Ok, if this is the real affidavit then the issue is clear and should be pretty easy to prove or disprove. First, sawn logs are obviously simple unfinished logs (illegal) compared to finished fingerboards (legal). Second, does the paperwork say it's going to Gibson or not? If the import docs don't show Gibson yet Gibson is in possession of them that's bad. Those two points if true, means Gibson is busted simple as that. Unless this case is settled out of court those pictures of the logs and the paperwork will be published by the court and available for all to see.

Bob
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/02/11 01:03 PM
While the feds are occupied with this important stuff, terrorists are planning the next 9/11.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 02:14 AM
Quote:

A quote from this link:

http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/25/doj-raids-gibson-guitars-looking-for-illegal-wood/

"In an affidavit, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents in June detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India.

The paperwork accompanying the shipment identified it fraudulently as Indian ebony fingerboards for guitars and it did not say it was going to Gibson, the affidavit said.
"

Ok, if this is the real affidavit then the issue is clear and should be pretty easy to prove or disprove. First, sawn logs are obviously simple unfinished logs (illegal) compared to finished fingerboards (legal). Second, does the paperwork say it's going to Gibson or not? If the import docs don't show Gibson yet Gibson is in possession of them that's bad. Those two points if true, means Gibson is busted simple as that. Unless this case is settled out of court those pictures of the logs and the paperwork will be published by the court and available for all to see.

Bob




Bob - is it the Lacey act that says that the sawn logs are illegal? The way that the blogosphere has been playing it is that the unfinished products are illegal not by US law, but by Indian law. I think this is what has all the underwear up in knots. There is the appearance that the Feds did this to uphold not our own law but the law of a different country. That's my non-lawyer understanding of the situation.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 10:51 AM
Quote:

is it the Lacey act that says that the sawn logs are illegal?




The Lacey Act is the law in question. The wood itself is legal, The question is about whether the wood was “finished” prior to coming into the US. So, foreign labor is okay, … American labor isn’t. The wood remains the same, so the same trees get cut down either way.

See my previous post ” #330498 - Thu Sep 01 2011 10:16 AM” for more detail on this.

No wonder American job growth was 0, (zero), last month for the first time since 1945.

And now, after Chris Martin, CEO of Martin Guitar, made comments supporting the Feds, there's a new twist from numerous sources. Here’s one.

Quote:

Another interesting tidbit in the Gibson Guitar saga
.........................................................................
Commenters yesterday wondered whether Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz is a Republican donor. Yep, he is. It also turns out that Chris Martin IV, the CEO of Gibson competitor, C.F. Martin and Company, is a long-time donor to Democrats. C.F. Martin uses the same “questionable” Indian rosewood in its guitars, but has the federal government raided a C.F. Martin factory? Didn’t think so. Juszkiewicz said yesterday he feels like this is a personal attack. Could it be because it is?
John Hinderaker over at Power Line words it perfectly:
Quote:

It has come out that Juszkiewicz is a Republican donor, while the CEO of one of his principal competitors, C.F. Martin & Company, is a Democratic donor. Martin reportedly uses the same wood, but DOJ hasn’t raided them, leading to speculation that the Obama administration is sending a warning to Republican businessmen that they had better not oppose his re-election, lest they face criminal investigations. Normally such speculation would not be credible, but Eric Holder has politicized the Department of Justice to a point where such questions must be taken seriously. …
If nothing else, this incident illustrates the misguided priorities of the Obama administration. Harassing American businesses on frivolous grounds is not exactly what our economy needs at the moment. But the anti-business Obama administration just can’t help itself.



It’s also worth noting that the U.S. is a “trivial” importer of rosewood from India and Madagascar. According to Hinderaker, 95 percent of it goes to China. So, the whole “it’s for the trees” argument doesn’t really hold up.




Hmmmmm, the plot thickens.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 01:06 PM
Was wondering the other day when someone would point that out here, Bob.

Am wondering about quite a few things these days...


--Mac
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 04:09 PM
I found this website run by Jonathan Turly. He's a legal analyst for CNN and a law professor:

http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/01/gibson-guitar-raided-for-possible-lacey-act-violations-again/

He provides a link to the actual affadavit signed by the federal investigator to establish probable cause to get the search warrant signed by a judge. He's quoting in detail from the Lacey Act in the affadavit. Turly's writing and the affidavit paints a different picture about Juszkiewicz.

Here's the hard part guys. The affidavit is 32 pages of legalese. You need to read it and digest it before you can make some of these statements I see here. This affidvit doesn't mean the DOJ is right, Gibson could still prove the allegations wrong and win at trial but at least reading it provides a basis for discussion.

All I see from Juszkiewicz is spin. He's not talking about the specific merits of the case. There's an old legal dictum that goes like this:

"If you can't argue the facts, argue the law. If you can't argue the law, argue the facts. If you can't argue the law or the facts, blow smoke."

He's blowing a lot of smoke therefore it's looking more and more to me like he's guilty. I don't believe for a second he doesn't know the Lacey Act inside and out. It's his business to know. If he has done nothing wrong according to that Act he would be quoting chapter and verse from it as well as the affidavit to show the DOJ is full of crap. I've seen this before, remember OJ? Instead he's whipping up public sentiment talking about how the administration wants to kill American jobs or how he's a victim of selective prosecution. Bringing up Martin Guitars is a classic example of throwing political smoke around. Can he prove that Martin is bringing in the exact same wood or is that allegation simply more smoke? It may be true or not true but it's irrelevant anyway. We were all taught as kids that we can't govern our actions based on what others do especially when it's something like this. A CEO of a big company has a responsibility to know what the laws are that impact his business and act accordingly. You may think with good reason that certain laws are completely and totally wrong, you hate them, you work your hard to get them changed and all that's fair but until that happens you better adhere to them or your butt's going to be in a sling.

Years ago I went to traffic school to remove a ticket from my record. They brought in a CHP officer to talk. One guy with an attitude asked him why was he picked out for speeding on the freeway when everybody was doing 80? The cops answer with a smile was simply "because it was your turn".

It's easy to make simplistic blanket statements about how stupid this is concerning Indian workers etc. Read Turly's take on the history behind the Lacey Act. It's not that simple.

Bob
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 04:22 PM
Quote:

Can he prove that Martin is bringing in the exact same wood or is that allegation simply more smoke?




He doesn't have to. This is America. He is innocent until THEY prove he is guilty. Not allege or surmise, PROVE. If there is any way to prove if Martin brought in wood from the same place, then this becomes selective enforcement and we can then turn attention to whether the large donation to Obama's campaign by Martin is factoring into this or not.

Somewhere online is a list of ridiculous laws that cities put in for one specific event and never took of the books. The Lacey Act or Law or whatever it is seems to belong on that list. Telling people where they can't acquire raw materials for their products seems over the line to me.

When they start telling companies to stop outsourcing their helpdesk and IT work to India and Costa Rica and every other third world they can find to work for a bag of rice, then they can hassle Gibson.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 06:33 PM
Bob,

Quote:

Here's the hard part guys. The affidavit is 32 pages of legalese. You need to read it and digest it before you can make some of these statements I see here.




I read the whole thing! Whew. I guess I’m now qualified to speak. The first thing I’ll say is that no one should feel compelled to read it, IMHO, since there is only a few pages that actually have anything of value to the discussion. Most of this can be found on pages 8-10 under “Investigation”.

The rest is legalese nonsense.

Quote:

All I see from Juszkiewicz is spin. He's not talking about the specific merits of the case. There's an old legal dictum that goes like this:

"If you can't argue the facts, argue the law. If you can't argue the law, argue the facts. If you can't argue the law or the facts, blow smoke."




Of course he’s giving “spin”. That’s his job to win public support. It’s working. Its his lawyers job to argue the law.

I’m surprised that you’re ready to declare Gibson “guilty”, especially based on info from the affidavit. After all, are the Feds going to say they don’t know for sure if Gibson should be charged, or are they going to say they have proof?

The whole thing is based on a technicality, and probably on political motivation from people using federal resources to further their agenda. It has NOTHING to do with saving trees, or even illegal wood species.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 07:26 PM
There's so many ways to spin this guys. I'm just trying to be logical here and look at what info that is available to us. First the DOJ is barred by law from commenting on an ongoing investigation so we have no idea what they've actually found or haven't found at this point beyond what's in the affidavit.

Our system is an investigator has to show enough evidence ie "probable cause" to convince a federal judge to sign off on the warrant. That by itself is damning but certainly doesn't guarantee a conviction. I don't know the stats but tv shows and a few sensational cases notwithstanding, the DOJ has a very high success rate with these things which is what we as citizens want to see with our tax money. This could easily be the first of many prosecutions, give it time. Martin could well be next if there's evidence. Again, I'm not saying the Lacey Act is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'm only saying Gibson should know all about it and the facts as laid out by the investigator doesn't look too good to me. You have to play by the rules as they are. And, it's easy to say witch hunt and all that but that affidavit is a federal court document. If that investigator lied in order to get a warrant, that by itself would land him in jail so you have to give that affidavit some weight and not just dismiss it out of hand until it's proven otherwise.

Eddie, if you were under investigation for something and you knew the whole thing was bogus, wouldn't you be arguing the facts not just blowing smoke? I sure would. This is like what I just heard about the NY Times going after Congressman Issa yesterday. Apparently they got their facts completely wrong and Issa has proven it by releasing some documents and the San Diego Tribune released a video showing the NY Times description of his offices overlooking a golf course when they actually overlook the freeway implying that he's some fat cat getting rich off his position as completely bogus too. That's what you do, go on offense and shoot that crap down right now not just dance around the issue like Gibson is doing.

Bob
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/03/11 09:33 PM
I'm going to get some popcorn and pull up a chair - this is going to be interesting. But I'm sure as health not going to take part.

Glenn
Posted By: John Conley Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/04/11 03:11 AM
Glen, please pass the sea salt and some serviettes.

The Yanks can call the napkins but my family would NEVER say that word in public. It was banned.

Then again there the help talk to you and we were taught the should never say a word. Odd.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/06/11 07:38 PM
If it's in the papers, it's probably wrong.
Posted By: KeithS Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/06/11 09:11 PM
Quote:

Telling people where they can't acquire raw materials for their products seems over the line to me.

When they start telling companies to stop outsourcing their helpdesk and IT work to India and Costa Rica and every other third world they can find to work for a bag of rice, then they can hassle Gibson.




The pertinent ammendment of the Lacey Act that Gibson is mired in was proposed and supported by the United States Wood industry, to force American companies to buy American wood. Their argument was that it kept cheap wood out of the U.S. and protected American jobs, which it did for a lot of things like pulp wood etc. The wood industry didn’t take into account the big picture and the untoward effect it was going to have on companies that imported woods for making furniture and musical instruments. That is where the problems came up because they lobbied for a law that benefitted most of the wood industry but forgot about the possible impact on certain specialty wood businesses.

According to some of the information that has leaked about the case against Gibson, one of Gibson’s buyers sent emails that got picked up by the feds that indicated a recommendation to procure wood by means of the gray market. Specifically, Gibson recognized that even their legal sources were potentially compromised by corrupt foreign officials working with smugglers to enrich themselves and pretty much said, “why not go with the flow?” and since they are all crooks, go with the crooks with the cheapest price. Supposedly some of this gray market sourcing information got into the hands of the feds because there was so much infighting between the crooks smuggling the wood that one group of smugglers decided to take out the competition by turning in their competitors. No honor among thieves.

Gibson has now been put in the uncomfortable position of denying that their employee recommended a gray market purchase and rather than deny that he made the statement, they have had to argue that the statement is being taken out of context.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/06/11 09:43 PM
It's worse than that Keith, at least according to the probable cause affidavit. The investigator showed the judge evidence of Gibson putting false declarations on US Customs import documents. Specifically, declaring the shipment was "finished fingerboards" when it was in fact sawn logs. Then, the final destination was not listed as Gibson but somewhere else who then forwarded the wood to Gibson. All that is a felony. You can't lie on official US Customs importation papers. More, according to the investigator the employees who, if you believe certain blogs are being "harassed" by over zealous federal marshals, were the ones who filled out those documents. Just because the boss tells you to do something, if it involves legal documents like Customs forms it's up to the employee to understand what they're signing and what the ramifications of it are. If they didn't know it was illegal to falsify Customs forms then those employee's are real idiots.

As a musician and a right wing conservative of course I don't want to see Gibson go down, of course I think these kinds of arcane enviro tree hugging laws are pure crap but that's beside the point here. If none of us knew it was Gibson, it's just some company who falsified Customs documents, law & order conservatives would shrug and say, good for the feds, bust 'em.

Most of us on the right side of the asle feel that the feds should be enforcing immigration law, it's certainly a crime to cross the border illegally. Well, we can't be hypocritical here. It's the same ICE in both cases. On one hand we're yelling they must enforce the law and on the other they should look the other way because it's our beloved Gibson and we think the whole wood import thing is bogus?

Whole groups of laws, including parts of the EPA, Endangered species, OSHA, all those kinds of laws are killing us as a country. From the EPA treating carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas to the Endagered Species Act shutting down the water supply to farms in half of the central valley in northern California because of some stupid one inch fish. Now the feds are proclaming a 54 MPG average for new cars starting in a few years? That tiny pos Smart car only gets 50. What are we going to wind up driving, pedal cars with a battery? It's insane.

Still, when it's your ass on the line you can't pick and choose your laws. It is what it is and Gibson knew that all along from what I can see.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 06:48 AM
I’ve been checking each day for something “new” in this saga, but it’s mostly rehashing what’s been said before. There was a pretty good article on Science 2.0.

http://www.science20.com/science_20/gibson_guitars_and_lacey_act_misused-82210

Quote:

For years, Gibson has been a part of Greenpeace "Music Wood" coalition, their CEO was on the Board of the Rainforest Alliance and Gibson was an early adopter of the certification created by the (useless) Forest Stewardship Council. Why has the Environmental Investigation Agency, a militant group funded by progressive billionaire George Soros, been lobbying the Justice Department so hard to go after Gibson?

We don't have answers to that yet and Gibson can't find out in court - because still no charges have been filed, meaning they have to file their own lawsuit and wait to get access to government proof. Under the Lacey Act, the government was able to raid the company and do millions of dollars in business damage without recourse.





Now we have a new name popping up in some of the articles.

“Environmental Investigation Agency”. A biased description of the agency follows:

Quote:

The Environmental Investigation Agency is a radical propaganda and agitation organization. It has pushed aggressively for the government to punish Gibson for not being green enough (despite Gibson’s long-standing history of yielding to green demands). EIA is supported by the anti-American billionaire Soros.




George Soros! Who woulda thunk it! So just for the heck of it, I typed the following into google:

Environmental Investigation Agency, George Soros, Gibson

Try it!

So this is just another twist showing the political motivations behind this whole thing.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 01:37 PM
Way back in the thread I mentioned that there was something besides democrat vs. republican in this raid and that it was something personal.

I also mentioned Mr. Juskiewicz affiliation with more than one responsible forestry coalition; including the Clinton Global Initiative. These are not your typical right-wing affiliations, folks.

I wonder if Mr. Juskiewicz and Mr. Soros have ever exchanged words?

There's something beyond the surface blather of Fox News vs. CNNBCPBSABC talking heads villifying each other. Whether that ever sees the light of day, I doubt we'll never know.

So, where's all those shipments of actual finished rosewood/ebony/you-name-it fretboards coming into N.A. from overseas to any N.A. made guitar maker? I certainly don't find evidence of that on Martin's site, or Taylor's site or anywhere else. That wood simply does not exist naturally in N.A. without it being imported, and you can bet that checking any builder's site - they are not claiming: "Fretboard and wires, binding, m.o.p. inlays all hand crafted in India before being sent to us so we can glue it on to your custom-made guitar"

Because it simply would not be true.

There's a vendetta underlying this thing with Gibson - it just stinks of that.

Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 04:54 PM
And to that Scott, I say "so what?". What's that got to do with what the investigator uncovered? Have you not yet read the probable cause affidavit? If not then click on the link and read it.

Think back to the Watergate affair and the resignation of Nixon. I was a few years out of the Air Force then and living in the DC area. I was convinced that the whole thing was a political witchhunt too. The Washington Post was a left wing hit squad and all that good stuff. Well, guess what it may have started out as a left wing hit job but they found the witch didn't they? That case caused me to be a bit more even handed with these things and to not jump too high to conclusions.

If you want to assume this is a vendetta great, lets say it is. Lets say the AG actually went all the way down to the ICE unit handling these things and he told them to target Gibson because he has a good source of information about it. So then the wheels of the DOJ start turning and the raid based on this probable cause affidavit is the result. Are you saying all that evidence is bogus, that since this is nothing more than a political vendetta that the investigator, his superiors and assistants are all conspirators in a plot to bring down Gibson? Somehow those Customs documents are forgeries too? Where have we seen that argument before? The OJ trial. A "downtown" LA jury found OJ innocent because they believed Furhman, all the investigators, the CSI crime lab and everybody else all conspired to falsify evidence in order to frame OJ. Are you saying that is what's happening here with Gibson? That all those people are falsifying evidence?

If that's not what you're saying then if the evidence shows Gibson did in fact falsify declarations on Customs documents then Soros found his witch too, didn't he? I don't like his motives, I can't stand his politics but if the evidence is there, then that's it isn't it? At least for now of course. This is only in the investigation stage, nobody's been convicted yet. It may be dropped because Gibson has a good explanation for what's on those customs documents. It's just that this seems pretty simple to me. Either those declarations are correct or not. If they're correct this could be cleared up in a day but if not then it's time for lots of smoke.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 06:45 PM
Bob,

Quote:

This is only in the investigation stage, nobody's been convicted yet.




Shucks Bob, Gibson hasn’t even been charged yet! Since you are focused solely on the affidavit, let’s look at “sawn logs” from pages 8 - 10.

http://jonathanturley.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/20110819154237897.pdf

The dimensions are 510-530 X 70/75 X 10mm. That’s less than 21in. long X less than 3in. tapered to 2-3/4in. wide X slightly over 3/8in. thick. Does that sound like “sawn logs”? Or does that sound like fretboards? The wood was declared on the Certificate of Origin from India as “Indian ebony finger boards”. The wood was already pre sized and tapered for guitars. All that was left was for them to be fitted and sanded to suit individual guitars.

The “sawn logs” term makes it sound as if a tree was strapped to a pallet with a shipping label stuck to it.

I don’t want to try to dissect this mind numbing affidavit and debate minutiae, but this whole thing stinks to high heaven, or as Scott said:

Quote:

There's a vendetta underlying this thing with Gibson - it just stinks of that.




Could it be that George Soros found out the Gibson CEO is a long time Republican contributor and decided to have him targeted because of that?
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 10:49 PM
Quote:

I don’t want to try to dissect this mind numbing affidavit and debate minutiae,...




I know, Bob believe me I know. We're musicians here, not lawyers. Unfortunately, if we're going to argue this then dissecting the minutia is exactly what we have to do. From your local city pet licensing laws to the US/USSR Start treaty to the latest health care legislation it's all minutia. We have to try to wade through it in order to figure out what's going on.

I didn't want to do this because I assumed anyone interested would read that affidavit in full and yes, connect the dots, because you can't just cherry pick one part of it or another.

Here's part 10:

10. The international community uses "International Tariff Code" system or ITC, also known as the "Harmonized Schedule" or "HS", to simplify international trade in commodities including plants and plant products. Most relevant to this case is HS Code 4407, "Wood sawn or chipped lenghwise, sliced or peeled, whether or not planed, sanded or end jointed, or a thickness exceeding 6mm."

India prohibits the export of products classified under HS Code 4407 for all plant species harvested in India, without exception.


Exceeding 6mm. Without exception.

The investigator used several other numbered points to talk about his expertise and experience in this area. Maybe his statement "without exception" is wrong. We'll see.

Now look at your quote from number 19:

19. From a review of the paperwork accompanying the shipment, WI Theurer determined that the shipment was exported from India and contained twenty five (25) bundles of Indian ebony wood (diospyros ebenum) in the form of sawn logs, totaling one thousand two hundred and fifty (1,250) pieces, sawn to the dimensions of 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm and 510-530 x 72/62 x 10mm...

Note the last dimension is 10mm. I'm no mathematician but I think that exceeds 6mm, no?

When you write out something that's going before a federal judge you have to lay it out precisely, point by point and build a logical case where one item number refers to other item numbers. It gets complicated because life is complicated. Sure, that means the judge or more accurately his law clerks are going to read it word for word, probably make notes and analyze it then present their conclusions to the judge. I've assisted a couple of attorneys with these kinds of legal briefs several times. In my case these were briefs for Federal Tax Court because the CPA firm I work for gets involved with that but the rules are the same.

Absolutely I agree this thing looks stupid. 6mm or 10mm?? You kidding me? They're calling something that size a log?? It's very easy to poo poo this talk about the definition of sawn logs and all that but that's the way the law is written and that's the language we have to use.

Gibson's been importing wood for how long now? All under the Lacey Act. Sure it's minutia but it's also Gibsons business to know all that minutia. Believe me they know the difference between 6mm and 10mm.

Number 20 goes into the final destination of the shipment. Quote:

The shipment was marked for direct transport in interstate commerce to Nashville, TN following United States Customs clearance. The actual final consignee in Nashville, TN is not identified. Natalie SWANGO, General Manager of LUTHIER MERCANTILE, identified the actual ultimate consignee as GIBSON GUITAR, when questioned by WI Theurer.

Number 21 is the biggie:

21. The CBP Form 3461, U.S. Customs entry declaration, for the shipment listed LUTHIER MERCANTILE as the importer of record. LUTHIER MERCANTILE (of Windsor, CA) was declared to be the ultimate consignee, in contradiction to the Lacey Act declaration and other paperwork listing the final destination of the wood to be Nashville. In addition, the imported wood was falsely declared to CBP as "VENEER SHEET <= 6MM OTH, OT" and further listed the false HS code as "4408.90.0195", to match the false description. The false description and HS code beginning in "4408", fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.

This is what I was talking about when I said this case looks pretty simple to me. If Gibson is innocent all they have to do is quote the relevant portions of the law that says there are exceptions not 'no exceptions' like the investigator said, a 10mm size is ok even though they declared it to be 6mm veneer sheet and here's where they meet that exception and finally explain how they came to be in possession of the shipment when they were not listed on the CBP. Their attorneys could have a press conference about that and clear this up right now but given the evidence as described in the affidavit it doesn't look to me like they can do that can they?

Bob
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/07/11 11:27 PM
Lota of angles that this could still be an open case, IMO. What if Gibson ordered 6mm wood and it came in as 10mm? All it takes is a goof anywhere in the chain. Wrong part #, guy just didn't pass it thru the planer a couple more times and sent it out, nobody ever checked the actual thickness (or did knowingly and marked it wrong), an order comes thru to billing, they call the guy that orders and he says 'yep, theres an order of that expected' from his golf cart ... until gubmint showed up with a micrometer and gave it a good measuring.
I wouldn't doubt they knew it came in a little heavy, but since it was marked (and marketed)as legal size they just went with it; cost less, gives a little better choice of wood to guys here to work with. I don't think Gibson should be responsible for dimensions taken on products thousands of miles away. Should they have gone to the feds and said "we ordered 6mm wood and they sent 10mm, now we have to plane it more"?

Now if it came through labeled as 10mm, then why was it allowed to go through? I would think that something I sent through customs properly labeled would be good to go. They should know the law there in that office better than me.
4mm is kinda a small amount to be fighting over. It's another run thru the planer, done here or there. Not a lot of environmental impact there deciding where it gets done. Seems silly to me, even though I know the law says it's so. Intent of law vs letter of law I guess.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 12:15 AM
All is speculation at this point, meaning it isn't worth paying much attention.

Besides, arguing over speculation doesn't seem very productive.

Such is the way of things that have to do with courtrooms and the law.

It ain't over until it is over, it also hasn't even started yet.


--Mac
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 12:28 AM
I'll go along with that. No more from me here.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 03:37 AM
You're from Michigan Rharv. Ever read a UAW contract? Anything worth millions (billions) of dollars is negotiated down to the tiniest detail and one side or the other will enforce it.

One last example then I'm done with this too. I mentioned earlier I used to import vehicles from Canada in the 80's. We usually shipped them on big car carriers but one time I drove a nice late model Ford F350 XLT Lariat crew cab one ton dually from Calgary to the border crossing south of Vancouver. Just what people like GDaddy want to haul a big 5th wheel trailer around. When you arrive at the Customs inspection station, that vehicle must meet all US EPA and DOT environmental and safety laws. That means all the smog equipment must be fully functional, all the safety equipment like seat belts and proper safety glass have to be there and the correct EPA and DOT stickers have to be on the vehicle too. You can't have a non DOT approved replacement windshield for example. The agent walks up to me totally stone faced which is typical. I'm reminded of the line from the first Men in Black "yes ma'am, we at the FBI have no sense of humor that we're aware of". Right. He inspects the paperwork, goes over the truck with a fine tooth comb and while looking at the engine asks me "are you aware this vehicle does not meet EPA regs?" I about dropped a load in my pants. This is a twenty thousand dollar truck. He points out the belt was missing on the smog pump. A five buck part. He goes on to say how he can impound the vehicle and send it to a crusher and arrest me for smuggling and do I understand this? I go into my best Jackie Gleason impression "hummmanna, hummmanna, hummanna...I had no idea, our mechanic must have missed that, I'm so sorry". He finally said he's giving me two hours to get that vehicle in compliance or he will issue a warrant and forward it to the Canadian authorities and they will pick me and my truck up and present me back to US Customs. Oh, and he's carrying a big gun too.

Those people don't screw around and Gibson knows that. I think it's likely they would have busted Gibson for 1mm much less 4. Also I'm pretty sure there's actually a big, obvious difference between sawn logs no matter how small they are and veneer sheet. I could probably research that as well but I've done enough research for one thread.

My personal feeling on this is the problem for Gibson was the falsification of the consignor's final delivery address. That looks bad. If the consignor was correctly listed as Gibson Guitars this may not have been so serious. Hopefully the feds decide quickly a wrist slap is appropriate, no trial, the lesson is taught and Gibson can get back to work making fine guitars.

Bob
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 03:53 AM
There was a brief piece on Fox News this a.m. broadcast from the Gibson plant in Nashville. It closed with a brief statement. To paraphrase, "All the other major manufacturers are using the exact same wood and none of them are being prosecuted."

I'm a Strat man, myself, but if the budget ever permitted I might buy a Gibson just for solidarity's sake. Do they make anything with a whammy bar? (Oh, yeah--the Alex Lifeson LP at $6k. Maybe in another life.)
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 05:05 AM
Bob - I'm not claiming any innocence on Gibson's part - I don't think there's enough evidence to show why they have been raided multiple times now, without being charged with a crime.

I just think it's interesting that they have been singled out and that it seems like there never will be a day in court, since there's still something hanging on from the 2009 raid. Shouldn't that have been taken care of by now if it's all so cut and dried (wood that is)?

It seems patently undemocratic to me. The company is being held hostage without written cause or charges and their business will go up in smoke if it continues.

I will never have any thoughts now of putting any of my geetars up for sale on E-Bay, because they all have either rosewood or ebony parts, and those for darned sure didn't come from NA and there's no way for me to prove the wood's true provenance or true location of planing to under 6mm thickness.

It's this part that is the absolutely irritaing thing:

"India prohibits the export of products classified under HS Code 4407 for all plant species harvested in India, without exception.

Exceeding 6mm. Without exception."

How the heck did it get out of India then? Why should we be paying to enforce Indian law?

I'm sorry, but I think we've got plenty of other more pressing needs in this country than to enforce the minutiae of other countries' laws. That's my simpleton-not-a-lawyer-nor-do-I-play-one-on-TV view of this thing.

I'd rather see those employees of the Federal Government, of which we pay 100 percent of their salaries, employed in more productive manner than this.

This is regulation run amok, and though I don't have a very sensitive conspiracy meter in my DNA, it's pegged right now. I don't like it cause I'm paying for it and there's WAY bigger matters going unchecked that affect the world than this that I'd much rather be paying for.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 11:00 AM
Quote:

My personal feeling on this is the problem for Gibson was the falsification of the consignor's final delivery address. That looks bad. If the consignor was correctly listed as Gibson Guitars this may not have been so serious. Hopefully the feds decide quickly a wrist slap is appropriate, no trial, the lesson is taught and Gibson can get back to work making fine guitars.





Let's assume for a second that the whole problem is the falsification of records.

Does it make sense that they would storm the company with weapons over paperwork ?
I'd expect a nasty letter from a hundred lawyers, some time to respond etc.

Telling them they can't ship parts until its resolved, (but making no effort to start the resolution process by filing formal charges) really does sound like its entirely punitive.

The only other thing that even remotely makes sense is if there were suspicions that wood wasn't the only thing being brought into the country. (suspicion of drug smuggling would explain the guns and the seizure of product for testing)
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 02:10 PM
Gestapo.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 06:03 PM
Dude. Gestapo? Really? You have no idea who they were or what they did to people.

Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo

Don't use names like that unless you're talking about other secret police groups who show up at your house in the middle of the night, pull you outside, line you up against the wall and kill you. That's either before or after they've tortured you in unspeakable ways and I'm not talking about waterboarding.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 06:31 PM
Looks like Obama will have an additional audience member to hear his speech on job creation tonight.

Quote:

WASHINGTON -- Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz will be U.S. Rep. Marsha Blackburn's guest at President Barack Obama's speech on job creation tonight to a joint session of Congress, her office announced Wednesday.

Blackburn, a Tennessee Republican whose district includes parts of east Shelby County, did not say she found fault with the raids in the statement released Wednesday.

But she did say: "Maybe if the president spent more time finding real solutions to empowering small-business owners and less time hindering businesses like Gibson, we'd see more new jobs being created."




http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/sep/08/gibson-guitar-ceo-be-rep-marsha-blackburns-guest-o/

This probably isn’t the kind of attention he was wanting for his speech on jobs.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 06:59 PM
If you’d like to see one of the “sawn logs” in question, check out the 2:21 second video inside the Gibson plant at top left in this article.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/07/does-white-house-want-to-ship-jobs-overseas/

A couple of key paragraphs in the article:

Quote:

What’s most puzzling about this case is that India is perfectly happy to ship the fingerboard ‘blanks’ to the United States. In a letter dated July 13, the deputy director general of foreign trade for India confirmed that “fingerboards made of rosewood and ebony is (sic) freely exportable.”
………………………………….
There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds.




……………………………………………..

Bob, I agree with you on the “gestapo” remark. Terms like Gestapo, Nazi and even racist get thrown around too often with little or no regard to what they actually mean.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 09:04 PM
In my view, if a group of armed men bust through the doors and take away my ability to make a living, not much difference there, actually.

What's that in our 6th Amendment about the right to a speedy trial again?

I also seem to be recalling some other points about the rights to search and seizure...


--Mac
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/08/11 10:06 PM
That's exactly what probable cause is all about, Mac. Authorities cannot simply decide on their own to raid and seize your proberty. We have an independent judiciary in this country. They have to go to a judge first and convince him there's enough evidence to warrant a search and seizure. Hence the term "search warrant". Federal judges don't sign off on those lightly or at least they're not supposed to.

Judges certainly can have different opinions though. A different judge may have decided the evidence wasn't strong enough to sign the search warrant. Look at what happened today. The Appeals court in Virgina threw out Virginia's case against Obamacare so now it's 2 and 2 in Appeals. A lot of so called expert commentators were really looking forward to this case putting a big slam dunk on Obamacare but it didn't happen.

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/09/11 01:32 AM
Today's news is just yet another case of, "It ain't over 'til its over"

That particular issue is just slowly winding its way up to the Supreme Court.


--Mac
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/09/11 02:21 PM
American police don't need probable cause or warrents anymore. You can be stopped in your car and searched for no reason at all. If you happen to be carrying a fair amount of cash, you can be arrested as a drug dealer. It will likely be dropped but you'll spend time in jail and money on a lawyer. You can stopped and asked for an ID and taken to jail if you don't have one or feel like showing it.

The America we learned about in school has been gone since the Raygun era.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/09/11 08:43 PM
Bud, you're completely wrong. You're reading or listening to the wrong people I think. Didn't you follow the Arizona immigration law thing? That's exactly what that law is all about, the cops CANNOT just stop a car for no reason and then ask for ID's. You also can't be arrested just because you happen to have some cash on you no matter now much. Cash and crack yeah, cash and an unregistered gun, sure but not just cash alone. Some cops will cross the line, we all know that but the way you're writing it is they're allowed to do these things. No, they're not.

And Mac, I totally agree with you I can't wait for the Supreme Court to hear that case. My worry is the admin wants to delay that as long as possible hoping one of the conservative justices either dies or has to retire so he an appoint another lib and swing it his way.

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/09/11 10:22 PM
Look. If you are on the street and some cop wants to arrest you for *any* reason, tha officer is at the time issuing a lawful order. I don't attempt to hold court on the street. Even and especially when I know that the police are out of line.

Here's what I do and say.

First, I cooperate as best as possible.

Second, (and many should memorize this sentence) I look at said officer and say, "Well, you do what you think you have to do, but I want you to know that I WILL conTEST it."

Notice the way to say the word, "contest". With the emphasis on the last syllable. Like a lawyer would say the word.

Having been on both sides of the law, I can tell you that the idea of arresting someone who might be a lawyer or a legal technician on a trumped up charge is something the average intelligent officer of the law will avoid.

Or, as we used to say back in my days on the police force in traffic division, "The reason our badges are round and don't have points on them like the Sheriff's badges is because our badges don't hurt half as bad when a judge and two lawyers shove it up yer butt."

People who want to settle things on the spot and in a hurry just don't understand how our system of laws works. Patience grasshopper. When wronged, settle it in the courtroom, where the judge is more likely to be an elected official who looks on you as a citizen, a constituent - and a vote on election day. Have your case ready, present it clearly, logically and once. With zero histrionics.

This is why arguing about a case that has not yet gone to court is just noise.


--Mac
Posted By: DrDan Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/10/11 12:04 AM
Quote:



What's that in our 6th Amendment about the right to a speedy trial again?

--Mac




OK, you finally got my attention. Speedy trial - ya then a continuance, then another trial and another continuace and over and over, this crap goes on for years. It is some kind of frickin game the system is playing to screw with ya. And the lawyers jsut bleed you dry. But don't get me goin, you think this Gibson Owner can go on a rant!....
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/10/11 09:43 PM
Quote:

People who want to settle things on the spot and in a hurry just don't understand how our system of laws works. Patience grasshopper. When wronged, settle it in the courtroom, where the judge is more likely to be an elected official who looks on you as a citizen, a constituent - and a vote on election day. Have your case ready, present it clearly, logically and once. With zero histrionics.




100% correct Mac. I can't comment on the incidents just talked about here but if you give a cop any kind of attitude at all, it ain't gonna be pretty. Like everyone else who hasn't been living in a cave the last 40 years, I've had my share of "contacts" with the cops and never a problem even including one incident I talked about here last year where I was at some chicks house back in the 70's at 4 in the morning and the place was raided by the DEA and local cops as part of the largest drug bust in the Northwest tristate area up to that time. I was completely innocent, just met the girl, knew nothing about her activities. I had to be cool, no attitude at all, talked about my being an Air Force veteran with a Top Secret security clearance, all that stuff and I was let go, no problems. I have a way of kinda sorta giving the impression I know people (which I don't) without being blatant about it.

Trust me one wrong step, one wrong word out of my mouth and I could be getting out on probation right about now assuming I lived that long. There were other less serious incidents like that infamous Ohio speed trap on the Interstate around 3am. I got out of that one with a warning, same deal. Just be nice, act like I'm one of them, I appreciate all they do, etc etc. You give a big man with a gun at 3am who's already on edge any slight reason at all and you're going to spend 48 hours in jail just for giggles.

Just be cool and of course being not guilty helps too. If they find some **** on you, all bets are off.

Bob
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 12:03 PM
No officer I don't have any asterisks on me, why do you ask?

Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 12:44 PM
this picture gives the phrase "dog tired" new meaning

heh
Bob, is that your dog?
if so, is his forum name ARFHARV?

(I think everything should be HIS fault from now on)
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 12:47 PM
speaking of police harrassment, last Monday I got a traffic ticket for going 37 in a 35mph zone!!

WHATT????
I wasn't insulting or anything.
When he asked at the end if I had anything to say, I *DID* say "is there a point?"

(he replied "NOPE!")
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 12:48 PM
That's Dakota, was my dog for many years, no longer here.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 01:07 PM
Quote:

That's Dakota, was my dog for many years, no longer here.



Sorry about your dog, but your caption was hilarious.

Have you ever gone to the website http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/photos ?
the photos are alarming, but whoever writes the captions knows how to turn a phrase...

mandatory thread-specific comments:
1) WALMART doesn't sell Gibson guitars (apparently because they aren't made in China yet)
2) see #1
Posted By: rharv Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 04:05 PM
Yes I've been told of that site many times.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/11/11 04:40 PM
Quote:

There were other less serious incidents like that infamous Ohio speed trap on the Interstate around 3am.




So you sped through Linndale, eh?

Try Waldo Florida. A former co worked got a ticket in Waldo Florida for 28 in a 25.

Now, to be fair there is a HUGE billboard saying "YOU ARE RNTERING A SPEED TRAP" in both directions, but 28 in a 25? C'mon now....
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 07:45 AM
Well fwiw, when California finally lifted the old 55 mph freeway limit some years ago, they announced the new (old original limit) of 65 would be a hard limit. CHP reps then did lots of media interviews saying they would issue tickets for doing 66. It is what it is.

Yeah I agree it sucks but the legislature didn't write the law saying "don't worry, there's 5 mph wiggle room". What really gets me is I just got home from my regular Sunday evening casino gig 75 miles away and traffic was running between 75 and 80 and there's still some people weaving in and out doing closer to 90. Every time I make that run there's always at least one time that everybody starts slowing down, traffic bunches up and it turns out to be a CHP cruiser going 65, then when he either gets off the freeway or stops somebody, it's back to the races. I was having a hard time keeping the cruise control at 75. The traffic reminds me of those schools of small fry in the ocean who bunch up based on the safety in numbers principle. Cross species instinct I guess.

I've told myself if I get nailed I will hire an attorney to fight it on the basis of what's the average traffic speed. There's been a few articles talking about if you can present evidence that that's what the traffic is really doing it may get thrown out. I've had one ticket in something like 10 years (not for speeding), I guess I won't know if that works until it happens.

Bob
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 01:01 PM
Quote:

Bud, you're completely wrong. You're reading or listening to the wrong people I think. Didn't you follow the Arizona immigration law thing? That's exactly what that law is all about, the cops CANNOT just stop a car for no reason and then ask for ID's. You also can't be arrested just because you happen to have some cash on you no matter now much. Cash and crack yeah, cash and an unregistered gun, sure but not just cash alone. Some cops will cross the line, we all know that but the way you're writing it is they're allowed to do these things. No, they're not.

And Mac, I totally agree with you I can't wait for the Supreme Court to hear that case. My worry is the admin wants to delay that as long as possible hoping one of the conservative justices either dies or has to retire so he an appoint another lib and swing it his way.

Bob




I know people who have personally experienced. Also have read many accounts of it. Granted, I don't know every one in the country. I know innocent people who have had their property confiscated without warrant or cause and took years and thousands in lawyers fees to get them back. Most people have to simply accept it since they cannot afford to fight it.

The US is becoming a fascist nation and millions of Americans think that is just dandy.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 01:04 PM
Quote:

speaking of police harrassment, last Monday I got a traffic ticket for going 37 in a 35mph zone!!

WHATT????
I wasn't insulting or anything.
When he asked at the end if I had anything to say, I *DID* say "is there a point?"

(he replied "NOPE!")





You were lucky. He could have pulled from you car, beat you up, searched your car and taken you to jail for disorderly conduct. You'd likely have been released without charge the next day but what would you - sue for false arrest?
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 01:06 PM
Quote:

Well fwiw, when California finally lifted the old 55 mph freeway limit some years ago, they announced the new (old original limit) of 65 would be a hard limit. CHP reps then did lots of media interviews saying they would issue tickets for doing 66. It is what it is.

Yeah I agree it sucks but the legislature didn't write the law saying "don't worry, there's 5 mph wiggle room". What really gets me is I just got home from my regular Sunday evening casino gig 75 miles away and traffic was running between 75 and 80 and there's still some people weaving in and out doing closer to 90. Every time I make that run there's always at least one time that everybody starts slowing down, traffic bunches up and it turns out to be a CHP cruiser going 65, then when he either gets off the freeway or stops somebody, it's back to the races. I was having a hard time keeping the cruise control at 75. The traffic reminds me of those schools of small fry in the ocean who bunch up based on the safety in numbers principle. Cross species instinct I guess.

I've told myself if I get nailed I will hire an attorney to fight it on the basis of what's the average traffic speed. There's been a few articles talking about if you can present evidence that that's what the traffic is really doing it may get thrown out. I've had one ticket in something like 10 years (not for speeding), I guess I won't know if that works until it happens.

Bob




I admire your princlples but you might go broke fighting it, even if you win.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 01:28 PM
"A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has just been arrested." -Unknown
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 02:00 PM
This whole thing is a good example of how something like 9/11 happens. Terrorists with expired visas wanting to learn to fly, but not land, airliners - NO PROBLEM. Exotic wood being imported - FALL OUT IN FULL COMBAT GEAR!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 02:20 PM
“Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.”

-Unknown

"And if you're not thoroughly disgusted with politics at 60 you haven't been paying attention."

-Also unknown

Got any more?

Bob
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 03:00 PM
Any mand loses his spoon, spends a night in the box.

- Boss Carr
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 04:08 PM
"Anyone who respects the law and loves sausage will not want to see either one being made." - Mark Twain.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 04:31 PM
Any man smokin' in the prone position in the bed spends a night in the box.

- Boss Carr
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 04:36 PM
Quote:

Any man smokin' in the prone position in the bed spends a night in the box.

- Boss Carr




???
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/12/11 05:15 PM
Any man doesn't wash out his pop bottle spends a night in the box.

- Boss Carr
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/13/11 01:53 AM
"You can count on Americans to get things right, after they have exhausted all of the alternatives." -Winston Churchill
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/13/11 02:22 PM
Here's the whole list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvwqK2gn3S0
Posted By: DrDan Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/15/11 11:22 PM

Well in the US when you want to change something you can always sign a petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-pres...-lacey-act-fair
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/15/11 11:29 PM
Thanks Dan.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/16/11 04:47 PM
Quote:


Well in the US when you want to change something you can always sign a petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-pres...-lacey-act-fair




You CAN but all it will do is maybe make you feel better. We don't even vote for our president so the whole idea of US democracy is just a sick joke.
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/16/11 06:15 PM
The United States of America has never BEEN a democracy.

It is a Constitutional Republic.

Can't understand why folks first misname it and then proceed to voice negatives because the nation isn't apparently living up to what it never was in the first place...


--Mac
Posted By: Shastastan Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/16/11 10:56 PM
Thanks, Mac and here's one that I used to use in my avatar:

"The key to the gateway of wisdom is to know that you don't know."

Stan
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/16/11 10:59 PM
Right now I'm diggin' on me some Coltrane, the '58 recording of Stardust.


Yeah.


--Mac
Posted By: GDaddy Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/17/11 09:51 PM
Since I started this post, it has grown and grown and grown,
transmogrifying and morphing into all sorts of tidbits of
"information" about whatever.

Keep it up boys...I'd like to set a record for off-topic link that has been ruled "dead", and at this point is still goin' fast and furious...
Posted By: David Walker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/19/11 05:46 PM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If the wood wasn't cut (rough finish) by India people, Indians, then who was it cut by. If it was, no matter who they are, the wood would be finished in India making it legal. Shame on the Justic Department. just sayin'
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/19/11 08:55 PM
That quote is old David, nothing new has been announced since the raid.

That quote isn't really the point anyway. Find my posts a few pages up in this thread where I posted a link to the affidavit used by the investigator to show to a federal judge in order to get the probable cause warrant. The issue is falsifying official and very legal US Customs import documents. I'm not going to reiterate all that again, just read it. Since then I've seen several interviews with whats-his-name from Gibson. He's been on CNN, Hannity and one of the morning talk shows plus he's given interviews with the LA Times, Fox and a few more. Nobody including him has mentioned those Customs docs, all they talk about is what I've been calling smoke. Obama is trying to ship US jobs to India, blah, blah. All politics. No actual details of the warrant.

On the one hand I completely agree this raid shouldn't have happened, I think the tree hugging "save the forrest" stuff is mostly crap. Still, just like all the drug laws I don't agree with either (all that should be legal imho) we all know if you mess with drugs above simple low level possession and get caught you're gone for a very long time. Same here. Deliberately falsifying Customs forms is a felony, you can get five years for it depending on what's being smuggled plus a very big fine. A guy here at LAX recently got 3 years hard time for trying to smuggle in some protected parrots and declaring them to be something else.

Gibson knew those laws intimately because it's their business to know. If they did nothing wrong, the details of those Customs forms would have been talked about during those interviews yet it wasn't. What does that tell you?

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/19/11 10:40 PM
Well, it tells <i>me</i> that the Gibson company is smart enough not to attempt to hold court on the street...
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/19/11 11:32 PM
Mac,

Quote:

Well, it tells <i>me</i> that the Gibson company is smart enough not to attempt to hold court on the street...




Well said Mac. I'm sure the CEO has been told by the lawyers to be quiet about the particulars of the legal issues. The paperwork in question wasn't even filled out by Gibson, nor was it supposed to be. The Feds were even notified prior to the raid that the mistake was made by a junior clerk who worked for one of the importers. The Feds raided Gibson anyway.

The CEO, (let's call him J. ), has done a great job of PR, which is what he's supposed to do. The lawyers aren't getting $1000.00 an hour for nothing.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/20/11 01:52 AM
Quote:

The paperwork in question wasn't even filled out by Gibson, nor was it supposed to be. The Feds were even notified prior to the raid that the mistake was made by a junior clerk who worked for one of the importers. The Feds raided Gibson anyway.




Really? What's the source for that?

Think about this a second. The paperwork wasn't supposed to be filled out by Gibson? They're the recipient of the wood are they not? They can hire a Customs Broker and importers and all that but it's still their consignment and they're responsible for it. It's not like the importer brought it in under their name and then Gibson bought it from them once it was legally here. No, Gibson bought it directly from India and then made the arrangements to get it here. They can hire people to handle it but it's their shipment every step of the way and their lawyers know that.

You're using the old third party argument. Example, I'm a professional tax preparer. You hire me to do your taxes. If there's a big mistake on your tax return, who's responsible? You are because you signed it "under penalty of perjury that your return is true and correct". Look at the signature line of your last tax return. If it can be proven that I gave you legally bad advice I can be sanctioned by the IRS as well but it's still your tax return and you're responsible for it. Don't believe me? Ask Wesley Snipes, Willie Nelson and lots of others. Same thing here.

You guys certainly have a point about good lawyers not arguing a case in the news, wait for trial etc, but in a high profile case like this they will still put out stuff to try to undermine the governments case and I'm not seeing any of that so far. If that thing about a junior clerk is true, why hasn't J even mentioned it once? I haven't even heard him say something like there's lots of details I could go into but I'm advised not to. He hasn't even said that, he only talks about losing US jobs to India and how he's being singled out because he's a Republican supporter.

Again, I'm not arguing that this kind of prosecution is a good idea, all I'm saying is as an outside observer Gibson looks weak and guilty to me.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/20/11 09:50 AM
Quote:

Really? What's the source for that?




Whoa Bob, ………………………that almost sounds like you’re suggesting I made it up! I guess it’s a good thing I was able to find the article this morning.

Quote:

There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds.




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/07/does-white-house-want-to-ship-jobs-overseas/

You said early on that no one should even be commenting about this unless they’ve read the 31 page affidavit, and I read it so I’d meet your requirements to speak. Should we now start submitting “drafts” of our proposed comments to you for approval prior to posting?

Or is it okay for the rest of us to have opinions that are different from yours on this topic?
..................................................................

In Gibson’s case, there are other companies involved in each stage of the process, and each one fills out their own paperwork. It’s not Gibson’s fault if someone else screws up a form.

This could have been easily handled by the Feds if they’d wanted to, but they chose the heavy handed approach and are wasting millions of taxpayer dollars in what appears to be a vendetta against Gibson. They couldn’t prosecute Gibson after the first raid, so they jumped on what they thought was a “gotcha” moment and raided them again.

Shame on the Feds, ……not Gibson.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/20/11 03:17 PM
Sorry about that Bob, no I wasn't implying you made it up. This is an example of what I just said, the media is not looking at the affadavit and putting these statements through that filter. There was a discrepency in the import... Damn right there was. The investigator says that "discrepency" was falsification of the Customs forms. All the reporter had to ask Luthier is something like "the probable cause affidavit says this, what about it, can we go over that part of it?" There's no mention of that in the Fox article. That quote implies the reporter just accepted Luthiers statement at face value and doesn't even know about the affidavit because if he did he surely would have asked about it don't you think? How many times have we critized reporters on one side of the political divide or the other for not asking detailed questions with followup?

Of course we all have different opinions on this. I just wish you and others would argue where I may be wrong according to the law, not whether you agree with the raid itself or not. I've already said I think this whole thing sucks and in that I completely agree with you but the law is the law. Try pointing out where the investigator is wrong in his analysis about illegal declarations on those Customs docs.

As I said earlier you probably agree that ICE should be enforcing immigration laws, right? Well this is also ICE. They souldn't be enforcing these laws? That's all I'm saying.

Interpritation of the law is nothing but technicalities. Here's the latest one:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/1...test=latestnews

A PhD candidate college student is now on the hook for $675,000 for illegal downloading of music. How sucky is that? It's the law and it is what it is. I'll bet a lot of us don't agree with that one either.

Bob
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/20/11 09:30 PM
Bob,

Quote:

I just wish you and others would argue where I may be wrong according to the law, not whether you agree with the raid itself or not.




That’s easy. You are presuming Gibson is guilty. By law, they are innocent until proven guilty.

You keep saying the affidavit is the only thing people should talk about, even though the affidavit is only the Feds side of the issue. Addressing the affidavit publicly is exactly the type of thing the lawyers would tell Gibson and Luthiers Mercantile NOT to do.

Presumably there was an affidavit involved in the first raid that made all kinds of accusations against Gibson, yet no charges were ever filed. It’s been almost a month since the second raid, and still no charges have been filed.

As far as talking about the raid, please note the title of the thread. “Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!?” It’s not “Let’s Parse the Affidavit Against Gibson”.

We are exactly on topic to talk about the raid, agree or disagree as to whether it should have ever happened, and even to speculate about possible motives. The affidavit is part of the topic, but it's not the only part.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/20/11 10:16 PM
Sigh. Okee dokee.

Understandably since this is a forum mostly comprised of guitar players, most took the side of Gibson. Fine. You and others basically said it's all politically motivated and therefore they raided Gibson for no good reason. All I've done is point out there is a good reason and it's called probable cause. The feds had to present that affidavit to a federal judge so they can get a warrant. That's not easy to do. Federal judges don't agree to a full blown raid with guns and everything else lightly and since they're completely independent they're supposed to be immune from political pressure.

That affidavit is all there is to talk about IMHO because nothing else has surfaced about this of a factual nature that can be looked up and verified.

You're a good guy so it's time to say...

Peace brother

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/22/11 03:54 PM
Hey bobcflatpicker--

gimmie a phone call if you can today...


--Mac
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/29/11 09:22 PM
Here is an update from an article from yesterday.

Quote:

Feds To Gibson: Hand over more wood!


http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/09/28/feds-to-gibson-give-us-more-wood.html

Federal authorities are pressuring Nashville-based Gibson Guitar to hand over an additional 25 bundles of Indian wood that the company allegedly planned to use in its famous guitars.




The Feds never fail to disappoint.
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 09/30/11 02:34 PM
I don't doubt they had legal cause to do this. I just question our law-enforcement priorities when most murderers never get caught and you have meth labs springing up everywhere.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? - 10/06/11 05:03 PM
Here’s a pretty good update on the Gibson raid from yesterday.

“After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/...3_lnk1%7C101984

Quote:

It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C.

But Berkowitz's guitars include fretboards and bridges made from Indian rosewood and ebony, which the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service declared to be illegal to import in its actions against Gibson Guitar back in August. Now, every time Berkowitz uses that wood to build his immaculate instruments, he is potentially breaking the law.

"I use the exact same ebony and rosewood fingerboards that were confiscated in August from Gibson," Berkowitz told Fox News.

Does that mean he is "engaging in illegal business practices?"

"Well, technically speaking, yes, because they have declared the materials I'm using illegal," he said.

But whether the Indian rosewood and ebony that Berkowitz and Gibson -- and so many other guitar makers -- use is really illegal depends on who is asked.

According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.

"Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India allows free export of such finished products of wood."




There’s several good points covered in the article, including NAMM weighing in and it’s worth the read for those who’ve followed this issue.
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