I'm hoping to get some feedback from those of you who listen to modern country music.
Those of you who know me, are aware of my dreadful hearing loss. Even with Hearing Aids it often makes listening to radio music difficult when it comes to picking out the instruments used in the productions.
So I need to ask all you "good ears" out there -
Does Piano have any relevance these days in modern, and I stress "Modern", country music productions. Appreciate your being my ears on this - thanks - Ian
ian, i listen to "modern country" all day every day on pandora and, quite frankly, i seldom hear piano in it. garth brooks uses it sparingly (long outro on "the dance" etc.) but, in thinking about it, i don't recall hearing a lot of piano in today's country music. i will pay special attention throughout today and post back if i hear anything to the contrary. then again, we may have different ideas as to the term "modern country" so will you name a specific artist or group and i'll listen to them for you today.
Hello Don
Guess by modern country I'm thinking about their top 20 whatever.
Classic/Traditional country has a place for the piano still, but the Alan Jackson's,
Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Jason Aldean, Randy Travis, George Strait - those are what I
mean by modern country.
Back when I started to use BIAB many of their country styles had piano as a main rhythm instrument.
Now that RTs are here, I'm thinking that maybe some of my older BIAB productions should be
"modernized" by reducing the piano role.
Whatever info you can provide based on your impression, would be gratefully received.
Thanks for answering the call. Ian
ian, those are the artists/groups i listen to, plus zac brown;lady antebellum;kasey chambers; and dixie chicks...a good representative sampling. as an experiment, i previewed roughly 40 songs while listening specifically for piano. i heard only one, an intro to a lady antebellum song (forgot title), if that gives you any idea. i don't think pandora is available in canada or i would email the "station" to you.
such things as sans piano seem to be cyclical and very temporary phenomena. it will probably come back with a vengeance in whatever incarnation of country music comes next.
Ian I'm still wondering about the hearing aids thing.
I feel better without them, and in many settings they are not really a feasible option for me.
In the spectrum of over 2000hz exists every turning tire, fan, beeping deep fryers, the fan for the a/c in the car, it just amplifies those things to the point of pain. Even then it's pitch shifting and messing with the actual sound.
However I just put on a pair of Bose noise cancelling headphones at Best Buy.
They tell me I have recruitment, and that causes a lot of sounds to be too loud despite the fact I only hear vowels from women and get the rest by guess and lip reading.
But those headphones left me with almost zero background noise and it was like I went into a soundless tomb. It was damn eerie to say the least.
I'm gonna start a new thread on somewhat the same thing, different day.
ian and john, after 6 solid hours of listening, i heard a grand total of 4 songs with piano (in the specified genre) and 2 of those were actually electric organ. my conclusion is: piano (keyboard instruments) is/are not being used in "modern country." i'm sure someone will point out exceptions but that is my opinion.
Bless your good heart Don!
Probably uptempo tunes I'm guessing; but still that's quite a detail you've uncovered for country music.
Maybe piano's for the Adult Alternative or Adult Contemporary market.
I guess in my song demos I should be leaning toward guitar backing tracks and pedal steel.
Mind you, I understand synths are making their presence known in country.
Thanks for undertaking this Don.
Stay well - Ian
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I'm gonna start a new thread on somewhat the same thing, different day.
I'll be watching for it John. Have you contacted Marshall Chasin in Toronto, yet?
web page
Cheers - Ian
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Maybe piano's for the Adult Alternative or Adult Contemporary market.
It looks like this is where all the country keyboard players went. Those styles have plenty of piano.
Interesting question, I don't follow modern country but I used to be in a country band in a previous life and played lots of piano then.
Bob
Speaking of styles, Bob, I am going through EVERY piano on this thing and can't find a suitable piano for the old country standards I Fall To Pieces and I Cant't Help It If I'm Still In Love With You. I have run into this several times where RB is lacking "rhythm" piano. Any particular Real Tracks you recommend for such a background?
Might as well get my oar in here seeing as I play a lot of country music. Modern bands seldom use piano, and tend to stick with rhythm guitars. Not like the old days where a good pianist could give some rare licks to a good tune, whether it be a waltz or an up tempo honkytonk toe tapper. I honestly feel musicians of the ' golden' age took more pride in their music. They relied more upon ability rather than software. The twin fiddles of a Bob Wills track were sumptious. I'm not implying that modern musicians aren't good, far from it, it's just that far too much of tadays country is aimed at the teenie boppers. Call me an old Fa fa fa but there's definately something missing from todays modern country music. Loads of great tradtional country STILL being produced of course but you need to know where to listen as it's mostly the smaller indie artists who won't bow to the pressure of the major companies. I'm hoping music's like fashion and the pure country music will make a comeback ?
I hear lots of Hammond organ use in modern country, also the Wurlitzer electric piano has made something of a comeback there. Not in every song, mind you, but there are enough.
The modern country coming out of Nashville is sounding more and more like the older Rock and R & B stuff, which is fine with me.
--Mac
Hey Eddie - are you talking about the RT Styles? The midi styles seem to have plenty of piano.
On the other hand the RT Piano has not reached that level yet.
If you're looking for piano soloists go look at BIAB's midi style melodists and soloists.
Ian
Furry - there seemed to be some pianists in the Urban Cowboy years - Rich, Gilley
As a matter of fact I turned to country music of the 80s after the 70s country/folk
bands disappeared from Pop music. The 80s movement in country offered a ton of good country stuff/styles - not only new country. It was a great decade which carried over into the 90s. Loved the Outlaw movement.
Ian
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Hey Eddie - are you talking about the RT Styles? The midi styles seem to have plenty of piano.
On the other hand the RT Piano has not reached that level yet.
If you're looking for piano soloists go look at BIAB's midi style melodists and soloists.
I am looking more for background piano than soloists Ian. I must have tried 2 dozen piano Real Tracks and none of them were what the song needed. Too jazzy, too ethereal, too wide, too narrow..... I just need rhythm piano and have not had much luck yet. Sunday is a new day though and I will keep peeking.
Mac - from what I read, the main demographic targeted by Nashville is the ladies - and we know they love to dance! Hence Rock and R & B leanings.
Or if you want to be cynical, what ever style keeps the "drive time crowd" awake between the Coke and the McDonald's commercials.
Guess maybe the piano doesn't have the edge for today's country rock. Whereas I can hear where the Hammond might - edginess, power.
Ian
I think some of us would dearly love to have some real old time honkytonkin piano backing with a good variety of fill ins, intros & endings. Not too much to ask for.
Back when Hank Sr and Patsy Cline and George Jones and Ray Price and Kitty Wells and..... the REAL classic country artists played.... lots of the ol' piani then!!
Eddie - I wasn't talking just about soloists.
I was talking about looking through the NON-RT styles - the styles that use only MIDI - there's lots of rhythm piano in there.
Might be easier to do your searching in BIAB if you're not.
Ian
I'm agreeing with you, Graham.
Off to the wishlist with you, mate.
Ian
Eddie - for piano
Open Biab, click on Country Classic (249)
scroll down the centre list until you hit ACBALLAD.STY.
That is where the midi styles start - from there on down you will find lots of piano.
Highlight one style at a time. Lots of midi piano.
Ian
What i do eddie, is once the song is needing a good piano track, i go in the style picker and look for styles that are targeted at certain types of music, like country that suggests the style of music i want, and i change the style to that. In RB it won't regenerate the song, but allow you to generate a new track of Piano.
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What i do eddie, is once the song is needing a good piano track, i go in the style picker and look for styles that are targeted at certain types of music, like country that suggests the style of music i want, and i change the style to that. In RB it won't regenerate the song, but allow you to generate a new track of Piano.
When you go from that angle Rob, do you then switch BACK to the style you were using? I have this one set for a country shuffle kind of style and it is perfect (the project is I Fall To Pieces and I Can't Help It If I'm Still In Love With You intertwined into one song). I just don't have a lot of Real Track piano options.
Now with Ian's reply, I don't understand why I would open BIAB. Does it work in tandem where I can find instruments in BIAB and use them in RB? My perceptions is that BIAB and RB are two different processes and only related by marriage...
Hi Eddie
Using BIAB is the workflow I've developed since before RB existed.
BIAB is my sketch pad.
I just find it easier to preview styles in BIAB with my own chords entered.
It's the same style sheet - I was trying to draw your attention to the fact that the all midi styles have great piano rhythm tracks. Do it in RB or BIAB? Whichever is easier for you.
Yes they are meant to work in tandem - can't say for sure, but generally as I read, people set their song up in BIAB and then export it to RB to do heavy editing and mixing - at least that's how I use it. Primarily because the Chord View window is so powerful in BIAB.
Ian
So Ian, you do the framework in BIAB and then move it to RB? Is that correct?
This thing last night was the 2nd or 3rd time I have started with a blank canvas in RB so it is still a little sketchy for me about what I can and can't do.
Re-read my previous post - I tried to clarify things.
But yes I do my framework in the BIAB Chord Window. Search for a style first then I put in the chords.
Adjust tempo, choose RTs - very powerful the Chord Window in BIAB.
Starting with a blank canvas in BIAB is probably easier - at least from my point of view.
Ian
Ian, who cares? If you’d like a piano in the piece then use it!
I know that you are trying to emulate today’s country sound but my thoughts are that if it sounds good then it is good regardless of instrumentation. I think some of your songs would sound great with a little Floyd Cramer in there.
PS – I had a very busy day yesterday. Thus I didn’t get to your song. I’ll probably get to it Tuesday.
No need to change the style back unless you need to regenerate something you do not have finished. RB does not follow the style unless you tell it to.
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Ian, who cares? If you’d like a piano in the piece then use it!
I know that you are trying to emulate today’s country sound but my thoughts are that if it sounds good then it is good regardless of instrumentation. I think some of your songs would sound great with a little Floyd Cramer in there.
PS – I had a very busy day yesterday. Thus I didn’t get to your song. I’ll probably get to it Tuesday.
Ditto trust your ear . . . when it comes to instrumentation, especially just one i.e. a paino, my bet is that it will be a lot better than most of your audience.
Later,
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Guess maybe the piano doesn't have the edge for today's country rock. Whereas I can hear where the Hammond might - edginess, power.
Ian
Ian:
The only instrument I play is the piano, but I haven't played an acoustic piano for some time - just digital. So I'll make a few comments as to why I think the piano isn't used and what might rectify it.
1) For a group to use a piano, they likely need a regular pianist, and most groups do some traveling.
2) Many (most) venues don't have a suitable acoustic piano (the real kind); the venues often tend to be arenas. In fact I've never seen a piano in an arena anywhere near where I live.
3) Traveling with an acoustic piano is close to impossible for a mobile group - it's heavy and the constant moving requires constant tuning which means a technician is required on a regular basis. This isn't going to happen.
4) The remaining option is a digital piano, and frankly the onboard sounds of a digital are not where it's at to use an old-fashioned term. They not only don't sound realistic at all, it's very difficult to get a piano sound that will cut through the mix without being too loud.
On Monday last, we went out for family birthday dinner, and there was a pretty good singer accompanied by a pretty darn good jazz pianist. Sadly the poor sucker was using a keyboard with Roland's famous thin artificial sound (insert Yamaha, Korg, whatever as you wish - I happen to have a Roland). I gave up on the onboard sounds of digital piano several years ago and use a physically modeled piano. At my disposal are so many sounds that it would make a digital piano run away in shame; and the sounds kick butt. The next version is going to turn some heads and make conversions (it's due out soon).
A frequent question is "how can I get the piano to cut through the mix?" In a few minutes, I can tweak a sound that will cut through a steel door and then save it as a drop-down preset. There are also dozens of ready-to-go presets including electrics, marimba, vibes, etc. (all percussion).
Every preset is available with one mouse click, and any two presets are visible and available onscreen.
The setup for traveling requires a reasonably good laptop, and any decent keyboard. Today's upper end laptops are being used extensively for gigs (you all know this), and appear to be quite stable (not going to start a Windows/Apple debate here - they both work).
The footprint on my seven year old dual core HDD is 24.81 MB (not GB as in samples), and it will easily keep up with only 7 ms of latency. Since the program resides in RAM, HDD speed isn't a factor.
I can't say for sure why piano isn't used more in modern country, but lack of knowledge about the options that are now available may be part of it. In the past, the "standard" for computer piano sounds has been recorded samples, (the latest Ivory II requires 77 GB just to contain the samples and requires a fast HDD). Also, one can't tweak the sound very much with samples. With my "piano", I can change tunings in an instant for example.
If you have a midi file you would like to hear rendered to a particular sound, let me know. I can convert it to a wave track in a few minutes and post it on my box.net account.
Glenn
Thanks Glenn for the input - good assessment.
Nashville tends to be streaky or formulaic if you prefer - guess piano is on the down-turn
right now. Even though piano could be well mixed in the recording studio, re-creating a "sound"
on stage is not always easy. But what the heck, does the audience really know the difference
in a digital piano "riff" or a true wooden upright.
Mario, Danny - I agree - my songs, my "sound". What I am aiming at as a member of Taxi.com, is making
sure that my tunes sound like what the song listings are asking for . . . . usually they specify
wanting the song style to sound like OR a la whoever artist. Otherwise the song gets rejected because its sound is not on target. It's all hit and miss, but if the song is not on target, submitting a song becomes an exercise in futility . . . and with the creeping years, can I afford futility??
Enjoy your weekend. Ian
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Thanks Glenn for the input - good assessment.
Nashville tends to be streaky or formulaic if you prefer - guess piano is on the down-turn
right now. Even though piano could be well mixed in the recording studio, re-creating a "sound"
on stage is not always easy. But what the heck, does the audience really know the difference
in a digital piano "riff" or a true wooden upright.
Enjoy your weekend. Ian
Ian:
The audience may not know the difference between a digital or acoustic piano sound, but the piano sound must be able to cut through in the mix without being overbearing.
Perhaps some of the others here that are more involved and experienced than I with mixing and keeping the instruments separate, can offer some constructive comments.
Glenn
I know it to be the case that a modern MIDI sampled piano can do a much better job of fitting into the amplified band mix than attempts to use an acoustic piano, which is pretty much going to be a Helpinstill pickup, a flyswatter or nothing. Hexk, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of what we hear even from studio recordings these days may just be coming from the same source.
Relax, while the prominence of piano in country music may not be as prolific as at one time, there are still pianos to be heard on the country stations. This thread got me to turn and listen for a bit.
Onstage, today's digital pianos can certainly hold their own in these settings, actually, the sampled piano often is an easier mixfit from house to house.
We're not talking world-class classical pianists here.
Anyway, what I heard on the local country FM station in about an hour's time:
Toby Keith -- A Little Less Talk - and Toby seems to use the piano in quite a few of his numbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXaz7oGwcXo Sara Evans -- I Get a Little Bit Stronger -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8GSnIkxPM Brooks and Dunn -- Who, by he way, auctioned off the Kurzweil 88 used on their last tour on ebay, complete with a road-damaged corner and their autographs on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw4lRXL_nXE Brad Paisley still shows up with a pianist, typically running TWO or more MIDI decks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MapIaiWbOk&feature=related And I heard LOTS of simply awesome Hammond organ work on the songs that didn't have the piano up front.
While the piano style has evolved, it has certainly not been neglected.
And in live performances, the digital keyboard is the new king of the hill.
--Mac
Finally found use of a real live acoustic grand onstage with a country act.
Martina McBride -- Don't Stop Believin' -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v81JWh-50fk Sounds like her pianist got to enjoy a Yamaha C1 with the prerequisite Helpinstill stereo pickup in it. A distinctive sound if you have ever gotten to know it.
But is that country or is that rock?
Gettin' hard to delineate, these days...
--Mac
Well on this one, since it is a Journey cover, this one is rock. Martina is one of the real crossover artists anyway.
Eddie, you were asking about style usage in RB. One of the most overlooked parts of RB is the use of the styles. First, RB only generates what you specifically tell it to do, it doesn't regenerate every time you hit play like Biab does. Second, you can use a hundred different styles on ten different places on ten different tracks. As long as you don't tell RB to generate something new on one of those tracks, it will stay forever or until your HD dies. That is the really big deal about RB. Say you only want some piano backing to start on bar 42 through 60. Pick the style, highlight those bars, right click on the track, click the midi instrument "piano". It's done in like two seconds. Go down that same track to the next place you want some piano and do it again but maybe try some different styles. I've auditioned 4 or 5 styles on the same track that way. Or, since it goes so fast anyway and you have 48 tracks to play with do the piano for an entire track, then go to the next track down and so on until you're tired of creating new piano tracks with different styles. It still only takes a few seconds even for an entire track. Play the song with all but one of those piano tracks muted and then play with muting/unmuting them until you finally hear something you like in different sections of your song. Midi generates so fast, who cares and you just go up to the Track menu and delete the data if you don't want to look at what you decided not to use.
This is where RB has it all over Biab. Biab can't touch this functionality.
Bob
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Say you only want some piano backing to start on bar 42 through 60. Pick the style, highlight those bars, right click on the track, click the midi instrument "piano". It's done in like two seconds. Go down that same track to the next place you want some piano and do it again but maybe try some different styles. I've auditioned 4 or 5 styles on the same track that way. Or, since it goes so fast anyway and you have 48 tracks to play with do the piano for an entire track, then go to the next track down and so on until you're tired of creating new piano tracks with different styles. It still only takes a few seconds even for an entire track. Play the song with all but one of those piano tracks muted and then play with muting/unmuting them until you finally hear something you like in different sections of your song. Midi generates so fast, who cares and you just go up to the Track menu and delete the data if you don't want to look at what you decided not to use.
Different STYLE or different REAL TRACK?
If my style is set to BOBSCNTRYSHUF and all my instruments are there but I don't like the piano, you want me to change STYLE or REAL TRACK for that one track?
My original issue was that the pianos are such slim pickin's. There is some god awful Rhodes stuff and a few tinkle pianos when I look at the options for instrument selection when I say "GENERATE TRACK." And they are all named like "pop accompany" or "dreamy jazz". When I go through them, there is not much to choose from. Then Iam posted about BIAB even though I use RB amd that made me even more confused. Are the Real Track sounds not availble to both programs or will I find more pianos in BIAB than RT?
The thing for me is I would like to have a piano that the only way to describe it is "kickass like Roadhouse Blues" that I can create a solo from.
One of my songs I wanted some mild piano background and I ended up playing it in myself because none of the Real Tracks gave me anything I could use.
I also note you said "click the MIDI instrument piano", but I want audio tracks so I don't have to mess with soft synths at all. Did I read what you said and interpret it wrong?
Edit to ask you this question. You said
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Go down that same track to the next place you want some piano and do it again but maybe try some different styles.
but if I change the style won't it change my drums and everything, or will it apply multiple styles to different tracks in teh same song depending on what style I select PER TRACK?
Eddie - I have never tried to use RB the way Bob suggests but I will.
Did you ever start with BIAB, Eddie? Have you used it at all?
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Are the Real Track sounds not available to both programs or will I find more pianos in BIAB than RT?
Yes RT sounds and Styles with RTs are available to both programs.
You will not find RT Pianos to do what you want with the Piano - the RTs have not been created yet.
But if you turn to the "All Midi" styles which have only use Midi voices (usually designated M1 in the info about the style sheet) you will probably find a suitable Midi track.
- but you will have to convert it to audio.
Set up a test SEQ and do what Bob suggests with differing midi styles. If you create a good Midi piano track then RB allows you to convert Midi to Audio.
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but if I change the style won't it change my drums and everything, or will it apply multiple styles to different tracks in teh same song depending on what style I select PER TRACK?
This is what worries me because I have not tried it. I'm not sure whether or not you have to go and change all BB tracks to normal tracks. Bob?
Do you want to start a new thread, Eddie? Getting kinda long.
Cheers - Ian