Hi again folks,

I have a few cheapish crafter guitars and just wondering when it says in the soundhole label that its an "original hand craftered guitar" what exactly does this mean?

For the price that they are sold at I can't see someone carving the whole thing out by hand, just wondering how does hand crafted fit in in this respect?

thanks
musiclover

I believe hand crafted guitars can mean one of two things.

One - the entire guitar is hand made. The selecting wood(s) to be used are hand chosen. The cutting of the wood, the braces, neck etc were all hand carved. These are the really expensive guitars.

Two - the guitar parts were made by computerized machines then assembled by a human. These off course are the cheaper guitars.

I have seen both of the above labeled as hand crafted guitars.

For a wide variety of responses, ask your question on the Acoustic Guitar Forum: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php

I will tell you that even very high-dollar guitars, which are assembled by hand, very often have automation used in cutting components - some even tout that aspect of the guitar.

I know that both Taylor and Larrivée use CNC machines to cut their blanks for their necks. I saw it first hand at Larrivée's facility in Oxnard, CA and Jean Larrivée told me that he bought the equipment after Bob Taylor showed him the technology.

There's a boutique maker in Michigan called Charis Guitars, which uses CNC to cut out all flat stock (top, back, sides) and probably more than that. Bragged about it on their site many years ago. Read Page 63 of this .pdf (warning - looking at these beautiful guitars may cause serious Guitar Acquisition Syndrome, or GAS. You have been warned) http://www.charisacoustic.com/images/CA-PORTFOLIO_BROCH_FINAL.pdf

Simply stunning instruments, made possible with both CNC type of technology and traditional craftsmanship.

Hand Crafted is always going to be at play with guitars. None, that I know of, involve a completely automated manufacturing process. You could say the same about automobiles.

-Scott

I hazza Want. *drool*

Dudenbostel......

Well he used the word "cheapish" so Handcrafted means made by some 7 year old in China.

truly beautiful, scott! thanks, i think?

Back in my days at the robot lab, one of the projects involved development of robotics for use in medical surgery. Needless to say, there were two camps of thought among the doctors involved with the project. There was a camp which had already decided that machines could not be used to do the job that a human surgeon could do.

The reality is that the machine cannot and does not replace the human element, when used in its proper environment, the machine greatly enhances human abilities.

Anyway, one of the young engineers one day at the design conference table took on one of the cantankerous doctors who generally injected negatives about the situation at every turn. The engineer tossed the doc a yellow legal tablet and a mechanical pencil and then said, "Without a ruler, draw a horizontal line exactly 1mm long exactly in the center of that page. Then turn the page and do it again on the next page. Turn that page and do it one more time. Continue on until you have drawn a 1mm horizontal line exactly in the center of every page."

I don't know if that now exasperated surgeon got the point, human beings have a way of hanging onto their prejudices and whatnot long after logic has proven the fallacy, but I personally thought that this was one of the better ways to demonstrate the ways in which robotic computer-driven machines can be used to enhance human endeavors.

The notion that something, anything, that is "all hand-crafted" must be an inherently better product than the same product produced using machine falls hard on the sword of truth here.

The modern Luthier can simply turn out a far more consistent product by taking advantage of technology such as CAD/CAM for certain of the tasks involved in building a Guitar. The ability to have a machine that can cut fingerboards and place fret slots in exactly precise positions - and then repeat that operation as many times as needed, all boards being virtually identical in terms of those critical measurements, surely only enhances the product. A plus for the consumer is that use of same likely results in lowered purchase price for a product that has a much higher level of Quality Assurance than ever before.

All those MIJ Fender Stratocasters that are now going up in price are a testimonial to the above, every single one of them featuring a C neck carve that was taken from an original USA carved Fender neck that almost all guitarists agreed had a great feel - and duplicating same on every single piece. These are the Japanese made Fenders that the president of Fender wrote about in his book, that when they opened the first shipment to be sent to Fender USA, he literally cried - because the product was so damn good.

It is human nature to resist change. I think that is something put into us by the Creator and it is there for survival purposes. But the Creator also put the ability to reason in us. We should use that ability more often, IMHO.

That robot project? It went on, moved to other campuses, received inputs from multiple research labs such as ours, and eventually culminated in the first hip joint replacement performed by a robot -- with human doctors attending, of course, and sharing the workload -- in Australia, and was a complete success.


--Mac

Remember the movie Westworld? hmmm! Careful there Macster, our Some smooth domed Cowboy in black with half a face will be hunting us all down!








Hows that for paranoid?

In the mid 1990s D'Addario introduced a line of bass strings produced under computer control which were marketed as "Slowound." They were sold in explicit competition with strings that were advertised as "hand wound."

D'Addarios made the points that in order to provide proper pitch, timbre, and life the winding must be of constant tension and fed onto the core at a constant rate. Even if you had one guy in the shop who could do that by hand, string after string and day after day, how many strings could he produce? What if he got sick? And what about the rest of the guys?

I immediately bought a set. To my ear they made my 80's vintage Peavey T-40 (which didn't sound bad to start with) sound like I had paid $500 more than I actually had. They were wonderful.

I put the bass down for a long while after my divorce. When I picked it back up I went looking for Slowound strings but couldn't find them. I just found out that they stopped marketing them in 2004 because all of their strings are made by computer-controlled machinery. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for hand-wound strings.

Look out. It's "The Rise of the Machines." Wait--in this case, it's a good thing.

Richard, that line of advertising could only work on someone who had never witnessed the string-winding process. The real difference is that the machines were analog in the sense that the tension, etc. was handled differently. Setup of the machine took longer as the operator typically had to make and sometimes measure key adjustments. But once said adjustments were made, the machine could wind the strings with a reasonably good quality assurance until the operator stopped feeding it wire. Of course, as those machines wear, replacement with digitally controlled machines such as D'addario ws touting is the way to go. Likely those companies that waited a bit longer will enjoy even better technology at it.

We live in exciting times.


--Mac

Mac,

You know me. I'm an excitable boy. I happened to be working in an industrial machine shop at the time and very new to the technology, so yes, I was a bit agog with the whole computer-controlled deal. Four-million-dollar CNC machinery capable of .005 tolerances on two-ton gear blanks day in and day out. I'm frankly still amazed at all that.

But my bass really did sound a whole bunch better, and I still use D'Addario XL nickel-wound strings, the successors to the Slowound series on my Peavey. (I'm open to suggestion for flatwounds on my fretless Wish Hyper bass.)

R.

FWIW – I have had very good luck with D’Addario flat wound bass strings.

I find that guitar strings stay in tune and have less initial stretch time than they used to when I was young. I suppose the automation has a lot to do with that.

Many years ago I owned the "holy grail" of saxophones, the Selmer Mark VI. Like all saxes of the era, it had poor intonation. No woodwind is perfectly in tune with itself, you have to learn the "signature" of your instrument and then use your ears and embouchure (lip) to play all the notes in tune. New saxophones, with their computer assisted designs (and probably manufacturing process) have much better intonation.

Yet there is always a certain nostalgia about those old instruments. The Selmer Mark VI which I bought for $600 new, now goes for over $5,000 40+ years later. Those pre-CBS Fenders and extremely old Les Pauls have done the same thing. And yet, I really don't think those ancient instruments are better than the top-of-the-line new instruments.

IMHO, the term "Hand Crafted" is just a marketing term, used to bring that old instrument nostalgia and reverence to a new product.

Robotics have greatly improved automobile assembly. When I was young, it was very rare for a vehicle to turn 100,000 miles. Now I regularly get over 200,000 miles on my vehicles, with many fewer repair jobs. But yet a still working 1947 Chevrolet still brings in more money than a new one.

There are some things that automation does better than human skills, and other things that humans do better than the machines. The wisdom to know which is which and use the proper method in the proper place will produce a superior product.

So if a human pre-selects and aligns the piece of wood to go into the computerized jig, IMHO you are marrying the best skills of each.

Insights and incites by Notes

Steel guitar strings don't stretch very much after the initial tensioning to bring them up to pitch. This is a matter of physics but many musicians won't believe that. (The Nylon string is a different entity entirely and does suffer from stretch problems when new strings are installed.) A Material Scientist could explain to you why steel strings cannot stretch very much after the initial pull up to the amount of tension required to strike a certain pitch. So could a second year Physics major, for that matter.

The primary reason for newly installed strings to keep going flat is due to improper and likely loose wrap around the tuning pegs.

I have trained guitarists and guitar technicians on how to string the instrument, tighten up the wraps, tune it, retighten the wraps and then have a newly strung geetar that does not detune when played.

When in support of musicians at shows, string breaks, star tosses guitar to road technician and picks up the other guitar. Road technician restrings the guitar, sometimes having to do so offrstage in less than stellar conditions, strings it, pulls the wraps tight, tunes it using the meter, pulls the wraps tight on each string again, performs one more tuning to the meter -- and by the end of the song can toss the guitar back at our star -- and it is ready to play and stays in tune.

Knowledge is power.


--Mac

There's only 2 sets of flats to use. Both LaBella. Either the Jameson set. Which weren't called that when I used them 40 years ago.Or on your fretless I'd use the LaBella tape wound.

Look like finest kind, John. I'll pick up a set of the tapewound when I can.

James Jamerson used the same set of flatwound strings that came on his P-Bass for his entire recording stint at Motown. *Never* changed 'em. All those hits. Little Ampeg single fifteen tube amp, forget the real model number of 'em, the tubes flipped upside down into the speaker cabinet for moving, I call 'em "R2-D2's" when one passes over the testbench for a dose of repair TLC. Ultralinear output transformer, black metal cage for the tubes with the light up plexiglass nameplate, chrome plated chassis, the cute little thangs were literally the epitome of US design in that day. Maybe not so powerful by today's standards, but as Motown proved time and again, mic it at the right distance in a good sounding room and that's a take, Jake.

Not only that, but he never had a case for that instrument, either. It hung on a hook in his locker at the studio, which was the only place he played it really, his beloved upright was what he held court with in the Detroit jazz halls at night.


--Mac

There's no doubt that automated manufacturing is the best way to repeat a design millions of times in a row. But if there is a design flaw, all of them will have it.

However, the natural partner of CAM (Computer Aided Manfacturing) is CAD (Computer Aided Design)... and it is the CAD that has improved the designs of complex items like musical instruments.

In much the same way as virtual instruments can be modelled in plugins (because mathematical traits of the sounds they make are known) design engineers can experiment with all the attributes of an instrument while they build the CAD model from which the instrument will later be machined.

Effects of fret spacing, wood type, neck length, wood mass and density can all be played with while the CAD model is still bits and bytes. A small time luthier would have to make real instruments to test his theories, and the time involved would dramatically reduce the number of possibilities he could test in his entire career.

This is not to say that every luthier with a CNC router uses all the power of CAD to design his instrument. But I bet the big boys do.

For this reason I think production line instruments provide the best "bang for the buck", because the design is more likely to be continuously tweaked from a mathematical model and then those tweaks are reproduced accurately in every subsequent instrument.

Having said all that, however, I think there are specific reasons why many artists seek out hand crafted items:

1) As artists themselves, they want to support the art of instrument building

2) Those who seek a unique sound don't WANT an instrument that is guaranteed to sound exactly like a million other ones. They want a unique creation, specifically because its quirkiness will provide a signature sound.

3) Consider the difference between STYLE and FASHION. FASHION is a temporary norm that is imitated by the masses, while STYLE is a unique look that is obtained only by stepping outside the box. Apart from its sound, an instrument is an image accessory. Some people like to surround themselves with accessories that say "I'm different than you are"

Mac you might be correct with the sting stretching. I remember the guitarists in the early bands that I played sax in always having a problem with string stretching. I started getting serious on guitar a few years ago and never had problems -- so I figured string technology must have gotten better. It would have been a big assumption to think that I would be winding strings on the peg better than all the guys I used to play with.

And yes, nylon strings stretch, and stretch, and stretch.

Jamerson used either an Ampeg B-15 or B-18

and if my memory serves me well, it was a B-18 (or else it got bigger in my mind in all these years since I did the thing with Motown that my memory has enlarged his amp due to his huge stature in my mind - he was one of a kind).

And I don't think flat wound bass strings ever go bad until they break. When I played bass (P bass), I never changed them, kept the "ash tray" and damper "sponge" at the bridge and never wanted to put a new set on because new bass strings have too much edge to my ears.

Personally, I would ignore a marketing term like "hand crafted" or at least treat it with a health dose of skepticism, as I do the word "natural" when applied to food (coal-tar dye is considered natural).

I'm sure my newest guitar (Parker DF) was hugely machine made, and that doesn't affect me at all. What does is that it is comfortable to hold, a dream to play, and has a variety of excellent sounds. Whatever they did, they did it right. Since I got my DF last November, I think I've picked up my Gibson ES-330 twice at the most. And being that the 330 was made in 1970, I'm sure it was hand made. Not that the Gibson is an inferior guitar - for someone else it would be played more than the DF. What I'm saying is design, personal preference, and function matter more to me than how the instrument was made.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

start here and follow the thread to see a Gibson Les Paul being machined
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6nTyjlxM6s

and Notes,
your Parker DF is certainly an example of an instrument that achieves high standards of quality and function because of CAD modelling prior to manufacturing.

check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7NDZhLXt0s&feature=related


parkers being made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv7V8Rx_5v8

while we're on the topic of CADCAM manufacturing, here's a video of what I do for a living (CNC programmer making airfoils for power generation using this same machine)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__q5IfluE...7EBE2117A00A485

musical tie-in:
because airfoils are resonant bodies, milling them is somewhat like machining a tuning fork. The pitch of a milling cut varies with the speeds and feeds of the tool, combined with the resonant frequency of the workpiece. I've often thought it would make an interesting experiment to program a song by changing the speeds and feeds of a long milling job. I wonder what the machine operator would think if the turbine blade he was machining started playing FUNKY TOWN...

Quote:

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I've often thought it would make an interesting experiment to program a song by changing the speeds and feeds of a long milling job. I wonder what the machine operator would think if the turbine blade he was machining started playing FUNKY TOWN...

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One of the Carnegie Mellon engineering students once did exactly that - and used the machine in a performance.

Started out a big chunk of 6061-T6 AL, ended with nuthin' but chips.

His chosen piece was the Mozart variations on the Twinkle Twinkle theme, though.

Was a riot of a performance.

Possibly because he used the cutting fluid squirters as parts of the note groups...


--Mac