Why are there no electric keyboards in ‘50s rock ‘n’ roll?

from the vintagekeys blog
http://www.vintagekeys.co.uk/

Ummm . . . 'cause there were no electric keyboards?

that was my thought. i think they made the scene in the early 60s but i'm only guessing, sans wikipedia.

Mike linked to an article that pointed out that electric keyboards came out concurrent with Rock and Roll in the 50's. The question therefore is "Why didn't the pioneers of RnR make use of the existing technology?"

Run with what you brung.... perhaps.

Didn't they have just piano available until the Farfisa organ in the early 60s? Jimmy Smith played a Hammond in the 50s, though it was first available to the public in the mid 30s.

And every synthesizer on the planet has tried to recreate it. I have several keyboards that come close, but nothing is a B3 but a B3.

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but nothing is a B3 but a B3.

Warning - do not try any of the Nord Electro or Stage series - you have been warned.

A B3 that fits under your arm. Recorded, most would not be able to tell the difference. Trust me on this. Of all the music gear I pine for, I have true lust for either a Nord Electro or Stage.

Serious. Serious. B3 Mojo.

-Scott

I can tell the difference, Scott. Unless there are nine key contacts per key all hittin' at slightly different times, anyone who has actually sat a Hammond tonewheel organ night after night likely doesn't know what to listen for.

As for the notion that there were no electric keyboards available in the 50's -- Ray Charles was a pioneer with his use of the Wurlitzer electric piano. Matter of history that Ray formed his first "Combination" by paring down a bigband to just drums, bass, his Wurlitzer piano, plus one sax, one trumpet and one trombone. When Ray finally came up with a voicing that worked with those horns along with that piano, Quincy Jones wrote in is bio that Ray came running across the street and quite excitedly dragged Quincy up to Ray's apartment to hear what Ray called his, "Combo" -- a word that became part of the vocabulary to describe the smaller groups that today are called "bands" -- At that time, in order to call yourself a band, you'd better have had about seventeen pieces. What'd I Say? But I digress, sorry. Just Hit the Road, Jack 'n Gimmie Money, Honey, That's What I Like.

I think that most pianists of that era couldn't adapt nor relate to a different instrument than their beloved acoustic pianos, which makes a whole lotta sense if you ever owned *any* of the early analog electric and electronic keboards, one has to adapt to them as they cannot adapt to you. Not recommended to try grabbin' big handfuls of 13b9 chords on the old Wurlitzer reeds...

Wurlitzer electric piano, Fender Rhodes electric piano, Hohner Clavinet, Hammond organs of several different types and flavors, these were likely the mainstay instruments that were to become well used by at least the early 60's. The Soul and R&B acts lead the way, though, it took a little longer time for the white rock and roll acts to get on that bandwagon. Some blind cat (Ronny Milsap) who toured with Elvis used to use the Wurly and then the Rhodes, BTW.

MOTOWN, however, was a different story as concerns not only the use but the actual definition of what to do with those kind of keyboards. You Heard That Through the Grapevine, baby.

--Mac

Hmm, lots of organ (thinking of "Runaway", "Hello Stranger", etc.) and Wurli's (think Ray Charles - especially "What I Say". Then later, the B-3 reigned supreme while the people who couldn't afford one or didn't want to move one played Vox Continental or Farfisa organs.

But technology was different. There were more saxophones in the early days, guitars didn't have effects (except for the intentionally blown speakers the blues guys used for fuzz), and there were fewer electric keyboards to choose from.

Notes

Mac, hence my use of the word 'most'!

The emulations available in the Nord are very satisfying, nonetheless - with an expression capability hauntingly like the real deal. Again, fitting under an arm.

It's kind of like .mp3; I'll take the portability and convenience of 192 kpbs .mp3 files over having lossless files when I'm driving in my car. It's a great compromise, since the noise floor in my car is so high.

If I had to port around a B3 to gigs, I'd need a crew. The Nord Electro and Stage models are a great compromise and again, to most, the sound is the same.

The B3 emulations in those keyboards are very very close. Of course they are not exact, but it's much closer of an emulation than say a sampler keyboard trying the emulation of a guitar.

-Scott

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MOTOWN, however, was a different story as concerns not only the use but the actual definition of what to do with those kind of keyboards. You Heard That Through the Grapevine, baby.

--Mac

And quite a few good sounds came from Booker T and the MG's, though I haven't a clue what the instrument was that they used.

Tried all those portable organs and I have the CX-3 organ. The 2nd version that came out in the late '90s. The sounds are great to my ears. Later, Ray

I'm another one. Played Hammonds since my first M3 in 1969, then got a B3 around 1972 or so and had it and gigged with it until maybe 10-12 years ago when I got my Kurzweil with the KB3 option and it just wasn't worth it anymore.

You're right Mac from the POV of the player but maybe not from the audience, even an audience of players. Once it's going out through the PA in a band situation, highly unlikely you'll tell blindfolded. Now if it's a jazz duo or trio in a small lounge where the volume is low and the cat is doing the bass pedals with just drums and a sax and you're hearing the Leslie live, different story. It's mostly because of the bass because with pedals the player is still playing both manuals and any player can hear that. If someone is playing bass on a Nord, the tone could be perfect but he only has two hands and you can hear that he's only playing with his right hand. Add some bass pedals to the Nord and use the same B3 patch, maybe but still no live Leslie so the comparison to a PA would still give it away. However, add the pedals and the Motion Sound Leslie, assuming you can split the keyboard on the Nord for the upper and lower manuals now you have as close to the real deal as you're going to get. Could you tell the difference then in the audience? Maybe depending on how good the player is I guess.
I still think if you're in a larger venue where the Leslie is mic'd anyway, very hard to tell the difference out front.

Bob

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And quite a few good sounds came from Booker T and the MG's, though I haven't a clue what the instrument was that they used.

Believe it or not, Booker T used a small Spinet home model Hammond organ with built in 12" speaker and NO Leslie rotating speaker cabinet for his early and famous recordings, relying on the chorus generator in the organ for any animated sounds. Apparently they simply mic'd the speaker under the keyboard in the Spinet and got "THE SOUND". Green Onions was actually a tour de force in knowing what the tonewheel system could do, rather like a small puzzle in a way to figure out how to play that one correctly. Booker took great advantage of the foldback wiring in the Spinet on that one.

Of course, in later years, Booker would show up with a full B3 and a Leslie cabinet for live shows.

Ray Charles also made some reference recordings and appearances in the 50s with a small Hammond Spinet model tonewheel organ, too. As usual for Ray, he managed to find every funky sounding thing the little organ could do and used each to the max. Ray got a lot of mileage from carefully chosen voicings as well. If you can find a re-release of those recordings, well worth the listen for any keyboardist. One of the first things I noticed way back when I found them was that Ray never floored the thing. He found the funk best at about the 2/3 full travel point on the Expression Pedal and often used less as well. As a result, the little organ never strains, even though accompanied by a bigband. Beautiful stuff.

--Mac

I've played Hammond simulations of just about every brand at some point along the technology path, as already stated, the portage situation alone began to demand that.

NONE of them are spot on, some are very close indeed.

As for being able to tell, sure. The clones all each have their dead giveaways, dig.

BUT -- and this is where the rubber hits the road -- if I'm playing on a clone that happens to not do a certain trick in the fashion of the original -- I try not to ever play that trick on it. Keyboardists without years of experience sittin' the helm of the real B may not realize the existance of or know these things, which often gives the clone away purty quick. I did find it difficult to call the clone when the player was Joey D...

--Mac

Mac, you amaze me with the detailed info.
However, when it comes down to it, for 98% of listeners I don't think the sim giveaways matter. You've quoted it many times; if it sounds good it IS good.

You gotta know the difference to notice it. Sometimes I do, but many times I have no idea because it just fits as is so I don't focus on it.

**I use simulators all the time. Both keyboard sims and guitar amp/effects/spkr cabinet sims. Onstage and in the studio. I love the new technologies that allow us to be able to do these things.++

However, I also just call 'em as I hear 'em, man.

Just as Ray and Booker T approached the then new keyboard technology of *their* day, one must or at least I feel one *should* approach the newer technology from the standpoint of finding out that which it does well, that which it may not do so well and that which it cannot do at all, and govern their playing of the instrument accordingly.

Sometimes, though, I run into musicians who keep trying to make the new dog perform an old trick. it is't working, yet for some reason I can't fathom, these musicians persistin trying whatever it is that doesn't work well, be it certain voicings, or perhaps settings, gainstaging, whatever. Then there are those musicians who will become terribly defiant of a new technology as well. That's been going on for a long time, the fact that there still exist organists who demean the tonewheel organ is representative of that. There are also pianists who refuse to understand or use the Rhodes. My own father did not understand my Rhodes stage piano, whenever he tried to play it he approached it as if it were supposed to be an actual real piano. Thus, Pop's attempts to play it. while few and far between, always reminded me of the Good Humor Man's Ice Cream Truck...

At the end of the day, I suppose, mhy particfular viewpoint is, "It's all good".

--Mac

I will agree wholeheartedly with however mentioned the Nord Electo series. I want one of those so bad I might consider becoming a male prostitute to buy one..... though that would do little to help my cause....

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I will agree wholeheartedly with however mentioned the Nord Electo series. I want one of those so bad I might consider becoming a male prostitute to buy one..... though that would do little to help my cause....

Eddie, I will lay claim to putting the Electro into the thread, however I take no responsibility in starting your thoughts of alternative fundraising efforts.

Me want an Electro or Stage (have you checked out the Stage models - even more mojo), but not that bad!

-Scott

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Hmm, lots of organ (thinking of "Runaway", "Hello Stranger", etc.) and Wurli's (think Ray Charles - especially "What I Say".

Notes

Actually Bob, Runaway did not use an 'organ ' as we know it
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To quote
"Runaway"/Del Shannon: The distinctive "organ" part was done on a one-of-a-kind instrument called a Musitron. This ancient, 3-octave, monophonic, tube-driven thing was actually a modified Clavioline, built by Max Crook himself (who played the part on "Runaway"). Check out the official Del Shannon web site for information on the Musitron and more than you ever wanted to know about "Runaway". Now you may run across this very interesting web site, Space Age Pop Music , which claims that it was an Ondioline (a similar instrument), but I believe it's incorrect - there's too much information available, from Max Crook himself among others, to believe otherwise. Also check out Clavioline.com for more than you ever wanted to know about this instrument and its cousins

Yep, I know it was a Musitron, but when I met Del in Grand Rapids Michigan he called it a "weird organ". Back then, anything that was keyboard driven and didn't decay like a piano was considered an organ.

When does "organ" stop and "synthesis" begin?

Notes

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When does "organ" stop and "synthesis" begin?

Notes

I would actually call Tonewheel organs an analog synthesized organ sound, because they are using some alternative means of tone generation than air blowing across pipes.

Doesn't make it a bad sound now, does it?

And I really like that most of the synthesizer sounds I use today, are now syntheses of synthesizers! That is, they are digital emulations of analog electrical circuit generated tones.

When these became readily available about 10 years ago in the form of DXi and VSTi plugins, the world of 'analog synthesis' became much more readily available to the average Joe. Most of the 'real' analog synthesizers had been binned or bought up by collectors. So now I have an artificial minimoog and Arp 2600 that I use all the time, that if I tried to buy the real deal, would cost me many thousands for functional units.

I also have emulations (not sampled) of 73 Wurlitzer, Suitcase Rhodes, and Hammond B3 organs - which use the computer to simulate the circuitry of those electromechanical keyboards.

These cost me exactly zero dollars, and they way only as much as my laptop - perhaps the best feature of them altogether!

-Scott

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To quote
"Runaway"/Del Shannon: The distinctive "organ" part was done on a one-of-a-kind instrument called a Musitron. This ancient, 3-octave, monophonic, tube-driven thing was actually a modified Clavioline, built by Max Crook himself (who played the part on "Runaway"). Check out the official Del Shannon web site for information on the Musitron and more than you ever wanted to know about "Runaway". Now you may run across this very interesting web site, Space Age Pop Music , which claims that it was an Ondioline (a similar instrument), but I believe it's incorrect - there's too much information available, from Max Crook himself among others, to believe otherwise. Also check out Clavioline.com for more than you ever wanted to know about this instrument and its cousins

Twas a wee little accessory that was designed to be bolted to the bottom of a Hammon organ, underneath and in front of the keyboard manuals. Probably the first use of miniaturized keys as well, the little thing was a single note synthesizer, all tube driven. Yep, monophonic. Only had a limited number of voices, likely because at that point in time the emphasis was still on trying to emulate known wind instruments.

The Hammond Tonewheel Organ is actually and ADDITIVE synthesizer, that's what those famous drawbars are all about.

Most if not all later technology analog synths are subtractive, BTW. Start with the biggest wave you can generate and then add various types of filtering to carve it to a desired sound. Two or more of these generators could typically be used in conjunction, one could be used to modulate the other as well.

--Mac

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Quote:

To quote
The Hammond Tonewheel Organ is actually and ADDITIVE synthesizer, that's what those famous drawbars are all about.

--Mac

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Well, then. If I sit down at the pipe organ at my local church, and pull out flute stops at 16, 8, 4, and something-and-a-third feet, am I not performing an act of additive synthesis?. That would be before the sixties...
.
Thank you, Sebastian Bach!

Of course. Not only the venerable old pipe organ itself -- but the entire cathedral designed around it all went together to make those wonderful additive synthesis air powered actions into the experience.

(With the pipe organ, the term, "action" actually refers to the various ways the air was baffled at the bottom of each pipe in order to form the soundwaves, whereas today that word is typically used by keyboardists to describe the keyboard mechanism itself.)

--Mac

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If I sit down at the pipe organ at my local church, and pull out flute stops at 16, 8, 4, and something-and-a-third feet, am I not performing an act of additive synthesis?.

Okay so let me toss a wrench in just because I can.

I would think when you pull the drawbars out, you are taking away from the sound that is "the whole", so would it not be subtractive synthesis?

Eddie - no, Mac is correct that tonewheel organs are additive synthesis in action.

Subtractive synthesis works by filtering the waveforms that are generated by the oscillators.

Additive synthesis works by summing the wavforms that exist. The drawbars only modify the overall level of individual tones.

Subtractive synthesis starts with a complex waveform - in the old days, either a sine, squarewave, sawtooth, triangle wave or noise circuit. Then you filter out content in a frequency selective manner; effectively subtracting from an initial more complex waveform.

-Scott

>>>...I would think when you pull the drawbars out, you are taking away from the sound that is "the whole", so would it not be subtractive synthesis?...>>>

I am thinking of a couple of very old organs that I have had the privilege to play. One in particular has no electrical parts. It has knobs called "stops." When I want to add pipes, I pull the knob with the name of the pipe-set that I want toward me. The knob slides toward me 3 or 4 inches. The knob is attached to a wooden dowel that is attached to cables. The cables physically open a set of vales and the valves allow air into the set of pipes I have chosen.

Yes, Pipe stops are used to ADD pipe voices together, therefore the pipe organ uses Additive Synthesis. All sounds are combinative in the pipe organ.

--Mac

Just read it -- back to the question: In the early sixties the Chantays used an electric piano.

Here it is on the Lawrence Welk show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j09C8clJaXo

Guido

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Just read it -- back to the question: In the early sixties the Chantays used an electric piano.

Here it is on the Lawrence Welk show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j09C8clJaXo

Guido

Wurly 100, just like Ray.

Unfortunately, they didn't actually PLAY it in that "performance" -- what you hear is the studio recording, likely the record. That was common for TV presentation due to the perceived "problems" the old school TV audio engineers had with electrically amplified musics back then.

As with the acceptance of something new among musicians and audiences, new technologies often must wait for a new generation in order to ultimately be able to properly exploit them. I remember when three less-than-one-hundred-watts-each combo amplifiers was considered to be, "TOO LOUD" by a generation that loved to listen to an all-acoustic bigband easily generate twice as much in the way of SPLs.

At that point, prejudice becomes hopelessly entangled with perception, as it always does. The prime reason that I'm always saying that there is really no worse witness than the so-called eyewitness...

At the beginning of the 50's, Lionel Hampton started using the then-new fender Precision Bass in his bigband. Well, it really wasn't Lionel's first choice, but Wes Montgomery's brother happened along to fill the Bass slot and being a Guitar Player, took advantage of the real reason that Leo and the boys back at Fender developed the P-bass in the first place -- because a guitar player who happened to play with The Texas Playboys off and on told Leo Fender that if such an instrument were readily available that he, as a guitar player, could get more gigs by being able to double on bass. That player had apparently seen the earlier Rickenbacker solid body bass, and wanted one like it. Leo named it the "Precision" bass because it incorporated FRETS on the neck, which implied a preciase note aelection with less need for things like the Simandl fingering of the fretless acoustic bass violin.

Anyway, Lionel went on tour with that Fender Bass in the lineup instead of the "standard" upright acoustic bass, leading to the typical kind of questioning, denouncement and overall stupid writings of critics that always goes along with anything new or different.

One of the jazz critic writes of that era, Downbeat magazine or maybe Metronome, I forget, did review of the band with this new-fangled "electrical bass" instrument and wrote that it was able to play a full octave lower than the acoustic bass fiddle. He was dead wrong, of course, but forgiven IMO, as nobody in the jazz world had ever heard such clear sinewave bass notes before, along with the sustain that was hitherto a matter of chance.

And then there was a veritable plethora of hatred unleashed upon the use of electric bass in what these so-called "OPEN-MINDED" jazz musicians perceived to be "correct". Again it took the next generation to fully grasp the implications of that new technology, fuller sound, less cost at purchase, easier to learn to play, lighter in weight, smaller in size, important when considering portage problems -- and suddenly the upright acoustic string bass fiddle became the rarity with a bigband. For a time. Then it enjoyed a resurgence, of course. Ronny Reagan's Law applies there as well. If it moves, Tax it, if it continues to move, Regulate it and if it stops moving, Subsidize it. <g>

--Mac

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And then there was a veritable plethora of hatred unleashed upon the use of electric bass in what these so-called "OPEN-MINDED" jazz musicians perceived to be "correct". Again it took the next generation to fully grasp the implications of that new technology, fuller sound, less cost at purchase, easier to learn to play, lighter in weight, smaller in size, important when considering portage problems -- and suddenly the upright acoustic string bass fiddle became the rarity with a bigband. For a time. Then it enjoyed a resurgence, of course. Ronny Reagan's Law applies there as well. If it moves, Tax it, if it continues to move, Regulate it and if it stops moving, Subsidize it. <g>

--Mac

I shared that same sentiment back a page or two; except for the Reaganomics part of it - but tagging onto that thought: how cool is it that the latest generation of upright players will likely get their inspiration from a woman - that being Esperanza Spalding, of course.

Spalding be bad, bad, bad bass player a'right.

Would like to see if there could ever be a meeting of Esperanza on bass, Terri Lyne Carrington on drums and Diana Krall on piano and vocals some day...

If not hip to to Terri Lyne Carrington, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_exMEDF6ukg

--Mac

I think if Diana plays Elvis gets to sit in. He's got some good teaching from what should be a good source. I think many would be surprised to see how much music education many of the current people have under their belts.

Mac, probably going way off topic, but I had to follow through some other vids of Carrington - Interesting to see in this one https://www.youtube.com/user/terrilyncarrington#p/a/u/1/JdD3Bqr8e78 how she switches grip on her left hand stick and how she really uses the stick tip as a damper - never seen it that obvious before. Man I wish I could play drums.....

And on topic, I had a Wurly piano, black plastic with screw on chrome legs. I think it had a volume and another knob that did a feedback thing. I bought it and carted it to a house in a bush camp I worked in for 6 years. 500 guys in a bunch of bunkhouses, the staff in ranch style houses, and at the end over looking a falls on the White Otter River I had a 3 bedroom house, complete with visiting bears. One day, while playing at the wurly, the youngest boy comes in and says, "Dad there's a 30 foot bear at the back door...", I said, "sure son," and kept playing. I hear a noise and go look and a bear is at the door, paw through the screen. Used an old 303 Enfield and the bear was dispatched. I had already hit it with a paint marker for bothering the camp and had permission to shoot.

You never want to hear the noise made by a dying bear, shot right in the heart, broken leg, turned around for about 10 seconds crying, and dropped. I got her in the back of the pickup and was going to take her to the taxidermist, but about 1/2 hour later there is a yearling cub standing beside her in the truck. The guy got a 2 for that day.

That piano played in a country band or 3, all the local bands were country. I did a celtic set one time and was told to get back to country.

Johnny Cash, Johnny Paycheck and a whole bunch of french canadian artists you'd never know.

Lots of memories in that old piano.

There were 2 mines there, and if you dropped it down the shafts you'd get an a flat minor.

John,

My dad bought a WWII surplus British .303 Enfield that had been converted to carbine config for use by the British and Canadian Pacific Theater outfits as a jungle carbine.

They shortened tha barrel and then added a funnel-shaped tip that they labeled a "flash suppressor" at the end.

Killed many a Pennsylvania whitetail with that doggone thing, alas no bear, but it was a veritable flame-thrower when stoked with full loads. The barrel trim to carbine length was just too short to allow all the powder to burn.

First deer I ever hit with it, Pop always claimed that I really missed but the poor thing died of fright due to the long tongue of flame...

Later built a few modernized sport rifles based on the Royal Enfield. Funny thing about them was that they all seemed to stay more accurate with less cleaning. Those I built from Mauser actions were exactly the opposite temperament.

Back home in Pennsyvania and West Virginia, we typiocally had more than one miner go at a time, you were more likely to hear about severn flat five and worse. Like the flat minor diminished seven.

--Mac

You used to be able to buy a 303 army surplus rifle for 25 bucks and a buck a box for ammo.

Now you have to have your wife say it's ok and yes that's you, pass a 3 day course, apply for a permit and wait 6 months.

And then go in the lottery for a moose/bear tag.

They will probably beg you to go deer hunting, they are hurting the ethanol production big time. And the insurance costs when they crash into your mini cause it almost looks like a whitetail...lol. Stupid bucks are getting ready as we speak.

I'm going grouse hunting this fall, just waiting for a call the leaves are down up at the cabin. Couple more weeks.

I played a screw-on chrome leg Wurly for 4 years (well it was one of several that our choir had purchased from a local school music program kept on a 4014 GMC bus in the luggage hold). Kind of heavy but not not so bad that you couldn't haul it in/out at gigs. I don't know the model. I can say that I didn't think it was cool at the time from a sound standpoint. This was in the 80's when the thin clank of the DX-7 EP sound was THE electric piano sound in pop music.

Wish I had one of those Wurly's now! Choir probably gave them away - though I know the director of that choir now and I'm gonna have to check (note to self).

I played a suitcase Rhodes as the sort of 'mascot' in our pick-up jazz band in college. I saw 'mascot' because I didn't have the chops nor the knowledge of the other cats in the band but they wanted keys for 'Black Magic Woman' and the school let us use the suitcase Rhodes. I could read chord charts, so I was in. Soprano sax player in that band that could BLOW! Gotta check with a friend to see if he remembers his name.

No bear shooting stories while playing keys here.

Sound-wise, the Mr. Ray's plugins from GSi sound VERY much like old Rhodes and Wurly's - so much so that I don't miss the real deal all that much.

Black lid, screw-on chrome legs, solid state, two 6X9 car radio speakers, that's a Wurly model 200.

Besides the size issues of the early pianos and organs not a lot of people knew how to play them, at least in RnR style. Piano lessons they gave kids were useless for RnR. You can play guitar your whole life and never know a B from a Ab but piano/keyboard requires more music knowledge.

Mac, that was the model. I wonder if that guy still has the raft of them (they had 4 or 6 of them). If I still lived in MI I'd give him a call on it.