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Posted By: eddie1261 MOTU - 10/22/11 12:06 PM
Anybody here used any of the MOTU products? Particularly interested in getting input on the 2408 interface. I am thinking about getting a couple of them so I can bring the stuff out of Real Band and mix it on a real mixer instead of the mixer inside of Real Band. I like sliders rather than mouse movements.

The main question for me is about moving tracks to Sonar. I appear to do it correctly when I drag and drop each track from Real Band into Sonar tracks but somehow I manage to get all the tracks combined into the first Sonar track. I click the plug in button, drag track 1, and it takes everything. I have to be missing a step somewhere.
Posted By: Tommyc Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:00 PM
I wonder if you select all tracks in Sonar if that might work ? Dough-no never tried it .
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:09 PM
I'm not at my BIAB computer now, but there is a setting in the Drag n Drop options for this. It is not determined by SONAR.
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:35 PM
Eddie i am thinking, you are over thinking stuff. If you want to mix and master in Sonar, just export all the RB tracks as wave files it automatically opens a folder and deposits the tracks in that folder named after the song.

I have a few questions though.

First off what is it you want to do in Sonar that you can't do in RB?

Secondly when you say you want to mix with a external mixer instead of a mouse type on screen mixer, i ask why?

Third, Are you wanting to mix in Sonar, or master?

Forth, what kind of interface are you using to record into RB now?


The reason for these questions is to help you get where you want to go. The motu unit also has an internal mixer software applet, if you want to mix the software outside on a real hardware mixer you need something that acts like a controller. Something that moves the faders in both RB, and Sonar when you move the real faders on the unit.
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:37 PM
Quote:

I'm not at my BIAB computer now, but there is a setting in the Drag n Drop options for this. It is not determined by SONAR.




Pay attention to what Matt has said up there...


--Mac
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:50 PM
Something like this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/m-audio-projectmix-i-o

But consider what you really NEED, not just want. I constantly mull over really cool items, but what i really need is different. I will never track a full band at a show. I will have a couple friends over to play and lay down a few tracks. So instead of buying a $2,000 mixer rig i got the $99 stupid deal Tascam US 800 and guess what i have 8 ins more than i will need.

One thing i learned about myself, is that i want to keep adding software and gear, while i have not mastered the ones i have yet. I bet you have not reached the apex with RB. There is very little you can't do right there in RB. In the last year i have bought Multitrackstudio 6.41 Reaper 4.1, Sonar X1 essentials, and Melodyne. I did not need all that, as i can do anything i want in RB. Sure RB does not have as good of an automation setup. but my old MTS version 5 did. Anything i wanted that RB lacked was there.

Problem is that neither Sonar, MTS, or Reaper can do what RB does, So it makes more sense to use RB, and really learn all that it can do first.

Just a few of my musing thoughts.
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:54 PM
What i really want it this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/presonus-studiolive-16.4.2-digital-mixer/478507000000000


Hmmmm Someone stop me!!!
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 02:57 PM
Eddie,
I know you are getting comments about"why do you want to mix on a console?" This is becoming more & more popular with a lot of people. Not only for the ability to use faders but the ability to add in a little of the analog warmth before sending the mix back into the computer as a stereo track. So I say keep on that way if you like the results.
As far as MOTU. No personal experience however they were always leaders in the interface market.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 07:42 PM
Quote:

First off what is it you want to do in Sonar that you can't do in RB?



I don't know if, after changing the interface from the M-Audio Fast Track to the internal PCI card that works with the MOTU if Real Band will send me out 8 individual tracka. How I would make changes in track assignment on audio tracks to tell it which channel it will be controlled by. I know I can do it with Sonar. My trumpet player does it all the time. He uses Sonar and 2 MOTU 2048's and sends back out into his 32 channel mixer to mix there rather than on the screen.

Quote:

Secondly when you say you want to mix with a external mixer instead of a mouse type on screen mixer, i ask why?



Mainly the feel of using real sliders rather than grabbing and sliding tiny control buttons with a mouse, and having to do them one at a time. With sliders I can have my fingers on 8 channels at once.

Quote:

Third, Are you wanting to mix in Sonar, or master?



Best answer is yes. Comedic answer is "I want to be the master of my mix."

Quote:

Fourth, what kind of interface are you using to record into RB now?



Right now I use an M-Audio Fast Track Pro that is fed by my Mackie mixer for when I record supporting instruments and vocals into Real Band.

Quote:

The reason for these questions is to help you get where you want to go. The motu unit also has an internal mixer software applet, if you want to mix the software outside on a real hardware mixer you need something that acts like a controller. Something that moves the faders in both RB, and Sonar when you move the real faders on the unit.



Don't my fingers move the faders?

Here is what I have seen and done and liked it a lot.

Our trumpet guy has a 24 track mobile studio that he takes out and records with. He came to a rehearsal for my aborted Stevie Nicks trib band last year. He recorded 5 songs. He sent me a DVD of WAV files. I brought them home and imported them into my Sonar and mixed them the way my ear said was right.

Then I went to his house. With the same stuff he recorded on his rig, I was able to sit down at his console and mix again with my hands on a mixing board. That just "felt" better. I had all the drums under my fingers at once and could close my eyes and move the sliders until I heard what I wanted. The same with 4 vocal mics, and the bass/guitar/keys. I can't do that with a mouse. I have to do one track at a time, and I don't like that much. It may just be the old school in me, but I like a mixer. I can loop my digital reverbs into that mix and dump that product to a new file when I have it right (which is what I assume what you meant by mastering - making that finished product.) and move on to the next one.

Now, after exporting all tracks to WAV, importing each track to Sonar, how do I get rid of the "stuttering" that came out when I hit play? I remember this topic but have no idea what the thread name was to search for it.



Posted By: rharv Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 08:10 PM
RB will use the 8 outs if the device allows it. I do it often with 1010lt.

Trick is to enable the ports in the audio options area by highliting them, then you can right click each track and tell it which port (output) you want it sent out on. Make sure your main output stays at the top as the default, then you can assign tracks to other outputs individually.

You can even set up subgroups inside RB (bottom right of mixer panel) and group instruments to certain outputs. I've done drums this way; send all 8 drum mics to the stereo subgroup so once I have volume/panning of individual drums balanced I can use the subgroup to balance the volume of the whole set to the rest of the mix without having to reset everything..
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 08:35 PM
What Ed needs right now is a good multiple-channel capable soundcard. (And, of course, a mixer that has the separate channel "insert" capability required.)

Rather than stacking two to get the number of needed channels, I would recommend looking into a single solution that has the requisite number of separate channels available. The M-Audio Delta 1010 series does, and is the price leader. We also know that for the most part it works and plays well with the already mentioned softwares and ahs good driver support.


--Mac
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 08:48 PM
Absolutely the Delta 1010. I had one of these and can defiantly vouch.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 08:51 PM
Quote:

What Ed needs right now is a good multiple-channel capable soundcard. (And, of course, a mixer that has the separate channel "insert" capability required.)




Okay, now I am confused yet again. The way you worded that, it sounds like you meant a sound card with 8 outs on the back of an actual card that goes into a PCI slot. That would make the thing like 12 inches wide, which of course wouldn't fit into a computer case, so it's either an outboard or an inboard with a breakout box. I thought that (breakout box) was the concept of the MOTU unit, a sound card that feeds it's own flavor of firewire into the rack piece which wil mux 8 into 1 going in and 1 into 8 coming out.

And when I hear the word "insert", I think of the row of 1'4" jacks on a mixer that accepts 1/4" stereo plus that loop an effect. Were you using it that way, or did you mean inputs like where I plug in my keyboards?

Quote:

Rather than stacking two to get the number of needed channels, I would recommend looking into a single solution that has the requisite number of separate channels available. The M-Audio Delta 1010 series does, and is the price leader. We also know that for the most part it works and plays well with the already mentioned softwares and has good driver support.




I will look at that also, but when I can buy MOTU's for $100 or less, it's hard to pass up.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 09:11 PM
Okay update on "dropping" to Sonar. I found no setting to let me use the "drop" function that way it worked in BIAB. I saw the drop button turn green once but there was no activity and no tracks were made available to move to Sonar. I used to start that plug in and then just drag the track from the BIAB screen onto an empty track in Sonar and it moved over. I ended up exporting each track to WAV and imported them into Sonar and they are all there. All 8 of them.

However, that stuttering issue just won't go away. I tried everything I know. I made sure to close one program before running the other so two programs were not fighting over the sound hardware. After importing tracks I shut both programs down and reopened Sonar. Still stuttered. Restarted the computer. Still stuttered. There is no setting in Sonar like there is on the Real Band options panel to play with buffers, so at that point I knew of no other way to play with that, and got to the point where I took the attitude "and why should/would I have to when it plays fine in Real Band? It's the same tracks, same data, etc...."

And now I have to go run sound so I can't play any more with it today. And tomorrow is a morning or rehearsal and then the Browns game, and then a computer side job..... so I'll get back to this maybe Sunday night, but more likely Monday.

Thanks for the help everyone has offered so far. The learning continues.....
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: MOTU - 10/22/11 10:28 PM
Eddie, I'm sorry you're having trouble.

SONAR does have adjustments to help with stuttering, but we need the standard info to be able to help you find them. It may be in other posts, but would you mind repeating which SONAR version you have, and give some details about your hardware? You will want to find your soundcard's control panel and play with the buffer settings, regardless of whether audio works in other programs.

You should also report the results of the DPC Latency Checker, to make sure you don't have some other conflict preventing your system from handling audio. SONAR is more sensitive to these conflicts than any other software I use.

As far as BIAB Drag n Drop into SONAR, what you are doing works, but you are making it harder than it needs to be. Try this:

• Click on the DAW Plugin icon

• Select 'Options for DAW Plugins'

• Make sure the first, third and fourth checkboxes are checked. Depending on how you handle MIDI, you might also want that second box checked, but that's not relevant to your problem.

• Also in that dialog box, make sure the Drag Audio pull-down says 'WAV'.

• Then, all you have to do is drag the Combo button into an empty SONAR project, and sit back and watch it work. Be patient, and observe the track names as they alternate changing color.

• The only thing I adjust after that is to check the tempo, and perhaps rename the tracks to get rid of the BIAB-generated names.
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 12:17 AM
Quote:

...That would make the thing like 12 inches wide, which of course wouldn't fit into a computer case, so it's either...




You wouldn't have half the problems you do if you could stop with the assumptions and simply do a websearch for the card and see how that is handled...
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 08:14 AM
I'll give you what I can right now but it's almost 4am and I just got home from a sound gig.

Quote:

SONAR does have adjustments to help with stuttering, but we need the standard info to be able to help you find them. It may be in other posts, but would you mind repeating which SONAR version you have, and give some details about your hardware? You will want to find your soundcard's control panel and play with the buffer settings, regardless of whether audio works in other programs.




I have Sonar Producer 7.0.2. The latest updates/patches all applied. The sound card is the exact same thing I use for BIAB. Now what I DON'T know is when I look at the sound card setting inside of BIAB/RB, are those settings specific to the software, meaning that it is different when running BIAB/RB or other software. I can only guess that the settings are "the settings', that BIAB doesn't make temporary changes to the sound card and then it reverts to something else when I close the program. I use an M-Audio Fast Track Pro. Also note that if write into Sonar, it's fine.

Now your reply twice said BIAB. I am using Real Band. Would knowing that have changed your reply any?

Quote:

Try this:

• Select 'Options for DAW Plugins'
• Make sure the first, third and fourth checkboxes are checked. Depending on how you handle MIDI, you might also want that second box checked, but that's not relevant to your problem.
• Click on the DAW Plugin icon
• Also in that dialog box, make sure the Drag Audio pull-down says 'WAV'.
• Then, all you have to do is drag the Combo button into an empty SONAR project, and sit back and watch it work. Be patient, and observe the track names as they alternate changing color.





My choices under that pulldown were "WAV file or WFM file". No check boxes, etc.... That is in Real Band. I remember seeing this in BIAB, and when I did it, it blended all the tracks into Sonar track 1.

@Mac, I was trying to be humorous in describing a 12 inch PCI card, which was so obviously ridiculous I don't understand why it even evoked a response. If you noted the next line acknowledged that there was likely some kind of breakout box, which there is.
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 02:21 PM
Gotcha.


--Mac
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 03:08 PM
I have described how you can fix the problem you encountered in BIAB. As for RealBand, I can't help you.
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 03:14 PM
I have3 never tried it, but don't mackie boards have inserts that can be setup as feeds? If so then if you daisy chained two M-Audio 1010 deltas, you could ahve 16 channels in and out?
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 03:20 PM
Actually to simplify things if I were going to spend $950 a piece for two MOTU units i would just buy a presonus board instead and get it over with. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/presonus-studiolive-16.4.2-digital-mixer/478507000000000
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 07:20 PM
Quote:

I have3 never tried it, but don't mackie boards have inserts that can be setup as feeds? If so then if you daisy chained two M-Audio 1010 deltas, you could ahve 16 channels in and out?




See if I can get you all straight.Mac mis chose his words and I'm sure he knows the difference.
A decent console will have the following inputs:
1. Low Imp.low level Mic input
2. Low Imp line level input
3. An insert-- this is a stereo jack were tip =send & ring=return. Used to patch compressors inline. Typically.
4. Direct send--used to send to tape decks etc.usually post EQ /prefader.
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/23/11 08:54 PM
I use my Inserts as Inputs, by only going to the half click. A lot of folks using multiple channel soundcards do that.


--Mac
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 02:16 AM
So with inserts and a delta 1010 you could patch 8 outputs from the mixer to the 8 inputs on the delta, and then output the delta back to the mixer for monitoring, i get that way.

Daisy chain two delta 1010, and one 16 channel mixer for 16 channels in.

Don't most Mackie boards have insets on all channels? On my Yamaha board there are 12 channels, but only 4 inserts.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 03:19 AM
My board does have inserts on all the channels.

See, I stumbled upon 2 MOTU 2408's and the interface card for right around $200, and that was a whole lot more affordable than the $2000 Presonus piece you suggested. And my end goals are not all that complicated.

All I want to do is continue creating music in Real Band and be able to mix it on my Mackie mixer, with my rack mounted effects on the effects bus, EQ if I want it, compression.... those onboard tools just don't work for me. I have yet to be able to use the onboard graphic EQ in Real Band and get anywhere with it because it isn't real time. I don't like "stop the playback, move these sliders with your mouse, hope that it is what you are looking for, and play back, and if it's not right stop the playback and tweak some more." I need to be able to reach out to my 31 band EQ and tweak in real time. The same for reverb.

Until I get this interface card into a computer and see what it looks like I don't know if it will play well with Real Band. That would be the only reason I care about exporting the tracks to Sonar, because I KNOW it plays well with Sonar from being at my friend's studio and using it there. My stuff is so basic that I don't think I have yet approached 16 tracks (maybe 10-11 tracks was my highest).

Rob, you in particular have seen how I struggle with the Real Band onboard stuff. I think for my application external effects are going to work out better for me because I am used to them. I can't EQ to save my soul in Real Band, but that is mainly because it isn't real time. If I can move sliders while I listen, I do a much better job.

My biggest concern here, and the reason for the thread, was whether after generating drums, bass, rhythm guitar, rhythm piano and pedal steel onto 5 tracks in Real Band I can send those 5 tracks out individually to a mixer so I can massage them. According to The Harvmeister I can do that. Obviously I won't have channels for kick, snare, hat, rack, etc..... though I COULD do that by sending MIDI drum events to my drum machine which has an output for each drum, but there is no need to get that deep.
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 04:06 AM
What a deal! $200 great, i hope it all works out well.
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 12:55 PM
Yes "inserts" certainly can be used as direct sends when half jacked. The big difference is that the send point of inserts is after the pre amp & and low cut filter and before the EQ. With Direct sends the send point is Post fader. It utilizes all of the features of the channel. My console allowed the Directs to be either pre or post fader.
Also don't forget if you are going to send from a console to 16 channels of a sound card and want to return those 16 channels back to the mixer you'll need to have at least a 32 channel mixer or do a lot of plugging & unplugging.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 05:00 PM
Quote:

Yes "inserts" certainly can be used as direct sends when half jacked. The big difference is that the send point of inserts is after the pre amp & and low cut filter and before the EQ. With Direct sends the send point is Post fader. It utilizes all of the features of the channel. My console allowed the Directs to be either pre or post fader.
Also don't forget if you are going to send from a console to 16 channels of a sound card and want to return those 16 channels back to the mixer you'll need to have at least a 32 channel mixer or do a lot of plugging & unplugging.




Well, since this is all new ground to me, I will be experimenting a lot. I rarely pass 8 channels, and when I do there is a lot of plugging and unplugging to do, but this is why I bought two of them. The grand scheme was that I send with one and return from the other. We'll knwo how it goes by next weekend, but I think it will work out as I have seen it work that way before. I also have patch panels that I can use to make the replugging easier.

Now the newbie comes out as I ask about "half jacked". Is that nithing more than plugging a mono 1/4 plug into the stereo insert jack?

(I DO know enough to know that the male is a plug and the female is a jack, though nature says the female should be a jill.... )
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 06:21 PM
Although I use inserts as they are intended, to route a signal out and back, I believe half-jacked refers to plugging the three conductor jack in until you hear one click, not all the way in to hear two. This makes connection with only one of the two circuits. In other words, don't plug it all the way in. You'll feel the first tension point even if you don't hear it.
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 09:21 PM
Quote:

Although I use inserts as they are intended, to route a signal out and back, I believe half-jacked refers to plugging the three conductor jack in until you hear one click, not all the way in to hear two. This makes connection with only one of the two circuits. In other words, don't plug it all the way in. You'll feel the first tension point even if you don't hear it.



Not only that. An insert jack is indeed a stereo jack BUT it is also a switching jack. When nothing is plugged into it it allows the signal to pass through it. If you plug an insert cable into it then the circuit is broken and nothing will pass between the pre and the rest of the channel strip unless you plug the send & return into a piece ogf gear. Most usually a compressor.That's why it's called an "Insert" It allows you to insert an effect directly into the signal path.
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 09:24 PM
PS
When you plug a cable only to the first click it allows that cable to grab the signal to be sent to your soundcard WITHOUT activating the switch so the signal continues to also go through the rest of the channel.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: MOTU - 10/24/11 11:32 PM
Eddie, you wrote: "I can't EQ to save my soul in Real Band, but that is mainly because it isn't real time. If I can move sliders while I listen, I do a much better job. "

This is the root of the entire problem. Offline processing is not easy to use when performing EQ - in fact it's just about useless.

Get a freebie EQ plugin. Save the $200 for the acoustic treatment in your studio.

When you go D/A to the board, outboard effects, etc. and then A/D back in to the computer you WILL introduce noise.

The entire problem is trying to cram a square peg into a round hole with PG's offline processing for EQ.

Here is a link to the freebie classic Kjaerhus series of plugins: http://acoustica1.cachefly.net/other/Classic-Effects-Installer.exe

(There's a fine EQ in there that is real-time)

You can work wonders with those. They are all real-time. None of them will introduce noise like your wiring situation with outboard processing will do.

Also, learn to use the automation envelopes in RB for volume for mixing. With them, you'll find you can mix with more than 10 fingers at a time!

Honestly, I think the reliance upon off-line processing of the PG plugins is really at the root of your frustration; particularly when it comes to EQ. It just doesn't make sense to do it that way - even though offline processing is what comes native in PG products (as far as I know).

My 2 cents which will hopefully save you $200.

-Scott
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 01:33 PM
I don't get what you mean. "not in real time".I assume you mean while recording. This is true if you aren't using ASIO drivers.Scott are you saying that you can use those free plugs "in real Time" to record and not use ASIO?
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 04:36 PM
Plugins worked like a dream, Scott. TY!

I still can't EQ worth a damn, but I'll work with it....

John, in my case, I mean while playing back and mixing down. I was not aware that while playing back I could load in virtual EQs and EQ in real time. I was stopping, opening the Pg 10 band, moving sliders, and playing again to hear the changes I made, which were usually wrong. With the VST EQ I can EQ while the song plays back. I still can't make this foghorn voice sound like Sinatra, but I am working with it.

Looking for that Sinatra/Bennett/Como plugin....
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 05:18 PM
Quote:

Plugins worked like a dream, Scott. TY!

I still can't EQ worth a damn, but I'll work with it....

John, in my case, I mean while playing back and mixing down. I was not aware that while playing back I could load in virtual EQs and EQ in real time. I was stopping, opening the Pg 10 band, moving sliders, and playing again to hear the changes I made, which were usually wrong. With the VST EQ I can EQ while the song plays back. I still can't make this foghorn voice sound like Sinatra, but I am working with it.

Looking for that Sinatra/Bennett/Como plugin....




Well that's even easier. I assume that you now realize that the PG EQs and all the other effects can be used "in real time"during playback and mix down? That EQ that Scott recommended may be great as far as features and sound etc. but it has nothing to do with your issue now does it? You do need to have a soundcard that does the "what you hear" in order to pass the output of the card internally back to the input and give you a mixdown of all the tracks to one track.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 08:00 PM
John,

Yes - you can use VST plugins in most hosts both during mixdown/playback, as well as while recording, even though the effect isn't 'printed to tape'. ASIO with low latency is the key.

For example, you can do this with gain changes in most hosts, but it's a virtual gain change, instead of a destructive gain change. You can now do it in PG products with envelopes. But only recently. Most time that people talk about gain change here at PG, they are talking about the destructive (read: permanent) gain change made on a file.

And the recommendation for Kjaerhus classic series of plugins is mine but has been echoed here on PG forums by rharv and others time and again.

Whether someone uses these or PG's or others is beside the point. The main point of the 4 pages of discussion is actually that monitoring of effects in mixdown is very important. This is not what Eddie was doing. He was about to go spend a little bit of coin on a solution that would have been much more complicated than just mixing in the box. And still have questionable results in the end.

This was the nugget quote from the whole 4 pages: ""I can't EQ to save my soul in Real Band, but that is mainly because it isn't real time. If I can move sliders while I listen, I do a much better job. ""
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 08:55 PM
Scott,
The point I tried to make was that Eddie never even tried to use the PG plug-ins ( EQ )in real time. If he had he would have found out they are just fine and CAN be monitored while playing back or doing a mix-down. I am not at all debating the difference in quality of PG vs Kjaerhus as I've never used them. I'm debating the Statement that PG is not real time . They are.
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/25/11 09:48 PM
Now maybe what he REALLY means is the ability to listen to the track, be making EQ fader moves,play the track back and have those faders move as recorded.This is automation.Whole other story. As I type this though I realize it can't be what he's after as I doubt he has an automated HW EQ.
Yes being able to go through your tracks and automate all the VST effects moves is wonderful. Once your happy you can just let her fly and have your mix print all by itself. PG effects are not automated.
Posted By: Mac Re: MOTU - 10/26/11 12:29 PM
Perhaps Eddie has only found the older, non-realtime plugins in the Edit menu and does not know that the realtime plugins are accessible via the DX plugin routine...


--Mac
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: MOTU - 10/26/11 01:41 PM
My last post for this thread.

Eddie, you keep referring to your 'foghorn' voice, etc. and how you want to change it via EQ.

I'm afraid that this is going to be quite impossible to do.

Here's an analogy to keep in mind:

When you receive a phone call from a close relative or friend, is there any doubt as to who the person is on the other end of the line?

Usually not. What is remarkable, is that the bandwidth of telephone audible transmission is much more narrow than what you have available with your recorded voice, but the mojo of the voice, it's character and nature comes through loud and clear in a telephone conversation - even with it's limited bandwidth, and sharp resonances and valleys, distortions from crappy speakers and mics, etc. Like old AM transistor radio frequency content but worse.

Your voice is your voice. You can EQ it till the cows come home and it will still sound like your voice.

I listened to your recordings and in most of them, you have a clean recording, with little evidence of room resonances showing up in them that EQ can help to fix. A little high-pass filtering would be all that is necessary to take some of the low end out for clarity in a few spots.

Think of the most popular, lasting bands that have been in pop-music in the last 40-50 years.

Beatles, Stones, Alabama, U2, Rascal Flatts, (insert your favorite here) etc. etc. etc. Have ANY of them, had a singer with a beautiful voice? I mean Tormé Velvet Fog quality. Some of the R&B vocal combo groups did actually have great singers in them, but in R&R and C&W, for the most part there's a whole spectrum of what would be considered crummy solo singers by voice quality alone. Think of favorite local bands - same story I'm guessing. Very, very few pop/rock/C&W bands or even pop solo acts rest on laurels of great voice quality.

In listening to the recordings, I do think there's probably a little bit of room for you with vocal technique. But that's just to my ear. You need to decide precisely what it is about your voice that irritates you. Here's a wild idea:

1. Take the $200 you were going to spend on the MOTU units and the $50-100 you would likely spend on decent cables to hook it all up, set that money aside.

2. Burn a home-made CD of your recordings.

3. Find a local, recommended voice coach/teacher

4. Find out how many voice lessons $300 would pay for. I'm guessing you will get 5-8 lessons out of that. In the first visit with the coach, use that CD and while listening, point out what it is that bothers YOU to the coach. If you can't verbalize it to the coach, it's going to be very difficult to either process it out of the music, or teach it out of your technique. You might find that to be a very difficult process, but it is central to being able to change what irritates you about your recorded voice.

The reason I recommend this last process is that the coach might want to train your technique to what suits him/her, and you could still end up disappointed. You need to be able to verbalize what it is, at specific moments and phrases, that sounds irritating to your ear. If you can point out something like: "Here, when I sing the word 'really', I don't like how nasal it sounds" to yourself or to the coach, then the voice lessons will be kind of a waste.

In fact, you don't even have to do this with a coach. Take one of your recordings (one without alot of outboard processing) and critically listen to it bar by bar. Write out notes like the one above. When you are able to do that, go spend some coin on the voice lesson #1.

Getting voice lessons is nothing to be ashamed of. No more shame than taking guitar lessons, drum lessons, etc.

And by the way, at least with Sinatra and Bennett, the key there is their technique and ability to smoothly slide in and out of notes with their own identifiable flair. Neither of their voices is particularly rich. EQ had very little to do with their success. My High School choir teacher abhorred Sinatra (at least back in my day) as exactly what they would try to teach out of our technique. He used the term derogatorily as in 'Hey, Sinatra, hit the note at the beginning, not 3/4 of the way into it!'

Think of your fave Sinatra phrases from his entire discography. I'll lay money there's a serious slide involved. Whether it's: "Come ffffffllllllllllyyyyyy with me", or "New Yooooooorrrrrrrkkk" For examples of a slide up and a slide down, Sinatra was the master of that and made it cool.

If that's what you're shooting for, a good vocal coach can help you learn how to do that - maybe not with the same flair, but at least get you close.

Just another 2 cents.
Posted By: silvertones Re: MOTU - 10/26/11 02:50 PM
Scott,
What you said here is why in another thread I asked to hear Eddie's singing. I never got to listen because of dialup however the point I'm making is that you can't make a poor voice good with equipment. I concur that voice lessons is money well spent. Eddie I didn't listen to you so I'm just going on what Scott is saying. Think back to when you first started playing horns. It took time ,practice & probably some coaching. The voice is the same.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/27/11 03:08 AM
Mac, as usual you are right on target again. I did not know you could load the PG graphic EQ as a VST plug in. This is part of the continuing education of old school Eddie who still uses an A/DA flanger and wishes my Echoplex hadn't broken. I have yet to wrap myself around the term "DAW", opting for "Sequencer", and I still think of VSTs as "soft synths". Like my soft synth B3, my soft synth Prophet 5.... Much the same way I don't believe in "previously titled automobiles", though I have owned used cars.... The concpet of the VST plugin was lost on me until this thread. I know to load "the synth rack" in Sonar, which is the same as loading VST instruments, but in different terms. This same old school thinking is why I prefer to mix on a mixer and not on a screen.

Scott, as far as "my foghorn voice", I just don't like that I am so nasal, but you are maybe the 5th person to point out the reality that I can't sound like anybody else but me, and the quest for good EQ was not so much to change anything about my timbre, but to make me sound less like I am singing through a Pringles can, or ne of those Swedish horns on the Ricola commercials.... Actually it is when I ADD any EQ to my vocal tracks looking for that perfect, ear pleasing texture is when they go bad. I am just that over achiever type who always wants mo' betta.....
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: MOTU - 10/27/11 03:06 PM
Eddie, I have said to you several times in these various threads of yours that you need to get some education in modern digital recording. Just saying you're "old school" and then spending a couple paragraphs explaining to us what that means in not helpful. Most of us here are around the same age, we know what old school means.

The common thread running through your posts is you spend days, weeks running down the wrong hallway looking for the bathroon because you have not done the basic reading you need to do to learn this stuff. I've explained in detail to you the difference between VSTi's (i means instrument) and VST (plugin) and the fact that DXi is similar. For about the third time I think I'm recommending to you to visit Mac's Audiominds website, click on the Getting Started button in the upper left and start reading. Everybody knows him on these forums, he's a pro, one of the few who actually makes siginificant money as a recording engineer and music producer. He's a great place to start your education and there's ton's of other websites on the web.

If you don't start doing that some of us are going to start giving up on you.

Bob
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: MOTU - 10/29/11 04:40 PM
Wrap up post on this thread..... I have my 2 MOTU 2408s and the card installed in the computer. It starts to get ugly right here.

The MOTU PCI-324 card is a standard PCI form factor with the key notch toward the back, indicating it is a 3.3v card. (There's always a "however", isn't there?) However, the power requirement for this card, per MOTU, is 5v. Okay, so Eddie downloads a diagnostic tool, specs out his existing motherboard, and sees it is 3.3v across the PCI bus, as I expected. So then Eddie decided it was probably time to update that box anyway. The snag is that buying a new PC will see that new computer equipped with PCIe slots, which have the key notch in the front, the wrong form factor for the card. Off to the computer store I go. Bought a new motherboard, which they SWORE had 5v PCI slots, and I asked 4 times. That also meant that the existing Socket A CPU I had would not fit the new board, so I moved from an AMD 1.5g to an Intel 3g dual core. It also meant that the DDR RAM on the old board wouldn't fit, so I added 2gb of new RAM. Brought it all home, put it in the case, figured that a fresh install of Windows wouldn't hurt, so I did that as well. Loaded the drivers for the PCI-324 card. Shut down, disconnected power, put on static strap, installed the card.

Nothing.

Doesn't even detect it.

So I loaded that same diagnostic tool and ran it and find that the PCI slots are 3.3v despite the assurance that they were 5v. Got onto the MOTU web site and started doing even more research. It seems that the wonderful folks at MOTU buried two bits of very pertinent information. That card will not work with any RAM as new or newer than DDR, and will never work with a dual core processor. And here comes the "got 'em where we want 'em" part of the entertainment. Seems that they will be more than happy to take my card and $295 in trade and send me the PCI-424 which WILL work with DDR RAM and the dual core CPU. More reading revealed that the 324 card was designed like 12 years ago before anybody perceived that there would be double data rate RAM and dual core processors in PC class computers, so it was never designed to handle that configuration. I did make mention of one very specific thing in one of my 4 emails to MOTU, that being the fact that if the form factor is 3.3v industry standard it might be a good idea to make the card function on 3.3v. Just sayin'.....

So, for right now, I have 2 MOTU 2408s, 2 digital reverbs and a compressor all mounted in a nice new desktop rack, just waiting for the time I can come up with $300 to buy the new card to plug into my nice new computer. And a forced "Oh well, there's nothing I can do about it right now" smile on my face.... knowing that the only way this card will work is if I go backwards to SDRAM and an old single core CPU. This is my fault for not researching BEFORE buying used equipment from a guy on the other coast....
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