Disapponted with the new MIDI features? So am I ... but ... this is not a complaint post ... instead it is supportive

As many of you know, I'm a MIDI person. I have no use for the Real Tracks and feel that I can make a much better song by exporting MIDI tracks to a good MIDI sequencer, tweaking the music in that sequencer a little bit and playing it with good sounding MIDI modules. I think that using this method, I can take the very good output from BiaB and turn it into something truly excellent.

Like many other people, I've made my MIDI suggestions in the wishlist LINK. Unfortunately, all of my wishes haven't been granted yet. But again, I'm not complaining.

Through the years since I was introduced to BiaB on the Atari and later Motorola Macs and DOS PCs (we called them IBM compatibles back then), many features have been introduced that I have absolutely no use for; notation (I have encore), the visual drum window, melodist, soloist, Real Band (I find MTPro an easier sequencer for me to use YMMV), Real Tracks and others.

I just figure the features that I don't use are for somebody else. Like the songs in a fake book. I buy the book for the songs I want to play, and I figure the songs I don't want to play are just extra. Like the Internet itself, I visit the sites that interest me, and the other sites are for other people. I have no problem with PG adding features for other people.

I have also seen the core BiaB program grow through the years. When I started there were only 3 instruments, (piano, bass and drums) with the 'built in' 24 styles, no endings at all, no user styles, very limited chord selection choices, and absolutely no other features at all (no harmonies, melodist, soloist, etc.). It was what it was originally intended to be, a rough, practice tool.

Through the years I have also made quite a few suggestions, some of them have been implemented, some of them have not. I don't know the reason behind this because I'm on the outside looking in.

I've also made some innovations on my own that PG Music has later included in the core program like shots, multi-styles, EXPANDED, REDUCED, etc. I saw the demand, implemented them on my own, PG saw that it was a good idea, adopted them, and everybody benefits.

I am hoping that after the initial love affair with new Real Tracks cools down, PG will be adopting more of the requested innovations in the MIDI part of the core program itself. I don't know which ones can be implemented, which ones PG feels are good suggestions, and which ones they will adopt. Again, on the outside looking in.

Like everyone else, I'm like a hungry little bird peeping away to PG, "Feed me! Feed me!". I want my suggestions implemented. But PG has many customers, each peeping away and wanting their own developments. I would assume that the loop people are peeping for more loops and PG is responding.

So we MIDI fans need to peep too. Make your suggestions, affirm the suggestions that others have made and you agree with. Do it on the PG Music forum, post them on the wish list, and let PG know what we want. If we peep louder than the others, perhaps we will be fed.

Even though I haven't gotten all that I wanted out of BiaB, I still feel it is the best auto-accompaniment program out there. What Peter Gannon and crew have done is truly remarkable. They started out ahead of the pack with BiaB/DOS, long before there was anyone else. They have grown through the years as computer technology has grown. I am a happy BiaB user, and hope to be even happier in the future.

I have nothing but admiration for what PG Music has done. But I will continue to put in my requests in the hopes that some of my wishes come true. Hopefully I will make my requests in a friendly, gentlemanly manner and although I will be disappointed if they all don't come true, I will be understanding that I don't know enough about the inner workings and the demands of other customers to know why my requests aren't the most important in the world to PG Music.

Thanks Peter Gannon for a great product, thanks for the improvements you have made that I have enjoyed, thanks for the features that make other people happy, and I hope your product will continue to evolve in the future and that some of my wishes will come true.

Sincerely,
Bob Norton

Well Alan some interesting points. I dont use the MIDI side of BIABand I dont use RealBand.
The addition of VST plugins has opened up a new world here

Given good plugins a lot can be done, but your point about mirroring the slight ideosynchacies of a performance is also important. If you play eight notes in a row its natural to play the first and fifth notes louder and the third and seventh also to a lesser degree (assuming its nto reggae of 3/4).
Another problem is that MIDI instruments function with note off. Some real instruments function this way, and its also possible to let a note decay, but the passage from one note to the next on various acoustic instruments is by no means clear cut. Some instruments have a muted characteristic transition at least in legato playing - I am thinking of valve instruments, some insturments like guitar have some notes that often continue (the open strings) and others that rarely do - the fingering of guitars can also vary from note to note, from ghost notes to more staccato attacks, strums sound some notes more than others, and this all adds to the character of the sound.
Each instrument has its unique characteristics in this repsect and emulating them makes for a more authentic performamce. To do this one must know how the instrument operates and also how to achieve this using MIDI and the actual sample set you have

Hi All,
I don't want to be rude or disrepsectful or detract from the superb work that Notes Norton have done with band in the box midi styles and fake books and improvements. But I do think Notes Norton are reliant on midi for sales of the packages they offer for sale and as I would too, tend to be a little biast towards wanting more developement and promoting of midi, so I do see the point.

I suspect that PG can't do everything at once and spent a lot of developement time on new features for the latest upgrades to keep the company running. I'm sure it will all fall in to place in time and MIDI & Realtracks will be PERFECT.

I recently bought some NN Fake Book biab songs disks and although very good I found afterwards I really needed the Style disks to go with them to do them justice which I can't afford at the moment so was a little dissapointed as it will turn out to much more expensive than I first thought.

I certainly think any improvements to MIDI will be greatly received by all that use it including myself. I love the quality of the Realtracks and drums but I also love the versatility of midi and providing you have a good sound bank/keyboard or whatever the midi can be just as good.

I tend to mix and match and use both often depending on the type of project I am working on. There is room for BOTH realtracks and MIDI. I don't think you can favour one over the other, it's down to what people find the best tool for the job they are working on. I would think though that many new to biab these days would possibally not be into midi or know much about it with the changing times and equipment so are being introduced and using only realtracks.

It's brilliant that we now have the choice thanks to PG and the team's insights and hard work that biab has come so far since those old Dos days.
Can't get enough.
Regards. Jeff

generally, for composing quickly, I prefer MIDI too. The realtracks sound great but they are too slow to work with, there's no easy way to discern where is whatever you are looking for, and cannot be edited easily if they have something in them that you don't like, .e.g. too many passing notes, etc

The problem with MIDI...the sounds suck so bad. But for writing music without taking 1 day it's still the best way to go.

If you are wanting band dynamics, you'll definitely need a midi sequencer for post edits. Voila: RealBand. I usually use Bass, Drums and String parts from Biab midi styles and "build" from there recording the other parts. It can be done though. I have heard midi songs for sale that have been made with Biab. I can't remember if it was Midi Hits or not, but I immediately recognized the Biab styles used to make the songs with. If you spend some time with Biab, you will recognize parts in peoples songs.

Trax

I'm wondering if one reason that real tracks seem to be the currently more popular "tool" is because of the expense of buying a hardware midi synth. I realize that there are expensive software synths also, but there are many decent free and/or good inexpensive ones such as Coyote Forte. I like to work with notation and midi just seems easier for me as an amateur. I've purchased a number of Note's FB disks and they have saved me a lot of time. However, I have also downloaded some freebie midi files and have edited some arrangements to suit our needs. I could not have ended up with the same results with an audio file. I'm thinking that PG Music provides products that appeal to customer popularity and provide the best sales volume. That's what being in business is all about.

I have been curious as to how an all-midi PG Music BIAB/RB package might sell, but I'm not sure I'll ever see that. While I have no quality complaints relating to Notes' style disks, I would like to see a discount package deal for Norton's styles including on a particular fake books disk. I would be willing to pay for such a package if the price is reasonable. Of course "reasonable" is a relative term. I have actually ignored choosing certain fb tunes because the style used for it was not readily available. Just sayin..

Stan

Expense is not a consideration for me.

Don't drop that dime.

I used midi since day 1, and am into RealTracks now. I have a few times I want midi, but not often.

There's a program, get with it!

Quote:

Notes, you get award for longest post name!

I'd like to thank the academy, my booking agent, my fans, and especially my mom

Quote:

I know we've had this conversation before. But for my purposes, since the advent of Real Tracks, there is no comparison. <...>

Sounds like you need a better MIDI synthesizer. I have sounds that are 95% as good as the instruments they emulate, and with the editing ability of MIDI, I can easily surpass what the RTs offer.

Quote:

Notes, very well stated!

By the amount of midi requests that have appeared in Peter’s midi request thread there are lots more midi users of BiaB than I had imagined. I thought I was one of the last of a dying breed but it appears that I’m not alone.<...>

From the feedback I get, it seems like most professionals and dedicated hobbyists seem to prefer the MIDI styles for the reasons I describe here: http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_vs_loops.html

The fact that MIDI has survived so long and is still used in so many contemporary recordings are credit to the versatility of the format and the insight and foresight of the developers. There have been entire major motion picture soundtracks done with MIDI, every modern synthesizer has MIDI at it's core, and I would guess the majority of major studio recordings include some MIDI.

Quote:

To sound good with midi, you have to be a good composer, take time with editing staff notes, have excellent soundfont libraries (which can be pretty pricey) -- all in all, the skill level and tools required to get midi to sound excellent is pretty high.<...>

I respectfully disagree. One good sound module is all you need, sountfonts or not, most sound cards are pretty lame by comparison. So with a good MIDI sound module you get 95% as good sounds as the RTs, and with some tweaking in a sequencer, you can surpass the musicality of the RTs by editing, adding song specific licks, etc. And didn't we buy BiaB to play with the music anyway? If all you want is a backing track like the record, you would be better off with karaoke files.

And without any editing at all, take one sound, clean guitar and one sound module, my SD-90. Say I am happy with the guitar part, but I'd like to change the sound. With a few mouse clicks and no editing skill at all I can choose between: Clean Rear Pickup ... Telecaster Rear Pickup ... Strat Rear Pickup #2 ... Old Clean Gt ... Clean Half ... Telecaster Front Pick up ... Chorused Clean ... Jazz Chorus ... Mid Tone Gt ... Telecaster Front Pickup #2 ... Gibson ES-335 ... 335 drive ... and that's just for the clean guitar patch. Other guitar patches have as many variations.

That doesn't mean RTs are bad. I'm awed at what PG has done with them. It's just that they cannot be edited and improved. Auto-accompaniment is generic by its nature -- and it has to be. A little editing in a MIDI sequencer can turn the good but generic output of BiaB into something song-specific and more musically satisfying.

Quote:

I am curious Which specific midi implementation would you like to see Mr Norton?<...>

Check out the link in my original post, they are listed there.

Quote:

Hi All,
I don't want to be rude or disrepsectful or detract from the superb work that Notes Norton have done with band in the box midi styles and fake books and improvements. But I do think Notes Norton are reliant on midi for sales of the packages they offer for sale and as I would too, tend to be a little biast towards wanting more developement and promoting of midi, so I do see the point.<...>

That's a fair statement and yes I do depend on MIDI sales. On the other hand, I have lots of software that can manipulate audio loops, and I have lots of loops. I spent some time playing with that format. But I found that loops are good for parroting what others have done, but you cannot take them any farther. With MIDI I can be much more creative, and I also can be creative by modifying what others have done to make it more personal and express my own creative insights.

Quote:

<...>The problem with MIDI...the sounds suck so bad. But for writing music without taking 1 day it's still the best way to go.

MIDI has no sound. The sound depends on your synth. So it isn't MIDI that sounds bad, it's the synth or soundcard synth you are using to play them.

Quote:

I'm wondering if one reason that real tracks seem to be the currently more popular "tool" is because of the expense of buying a hardware midi synth. <...>

Another good point.

However, through the life of a good MIDI sound module, they aren't that expensive at all. The synth modules I purchased in the 80s and have been under daily heavy use since then are still operating flawlessly. They worked under DOS all versions of Windows, Motorola Macs, IBM Macs, Intel Macs and all versions of the Mac OS. If there is a hard drive that has been used 8 or more hours per day since the 1980s, I want to see it. Those RT Loops take up a lot of hard drive room, and that hard drive will eventually crash, so you had better have a second hard drive as a back up, and it too will eventually crash. Although the initial expense of a good MIDI sound module can be a couple of hundred bucks, in the long run that can run less than $25 per year.

Now in conclusion to this lengthy post. I'm not dissing the Real Tracks. As I said this is a supportive post. PG Music has done some fabulous things with them. And there is more than one right way to make music. Some people will use all RTs, some with mix RTs with MIDI and some will use MIDI exclusively. I think the suggestions that I and others have made will help the latter two groups if they are and if they can be implemented.

There are features that I will never use in BiaB. Those features are for other people. I have no problem with them being there. On the other hand, the features I use involve MIDI and there is nothing wrong with me making suggestions to PG Music to improve the part of the program that I use most. Peter Gannon and crew have always been very receptive to the wishes of their customers, it's one reason why BiaB is still number one. I can't say enough good things about PG and BiaB.

But since PG has already put in place a lot of the innovations that we have asked them to, I think I correctly assume that PG cares what their customers want and is eager to satisfy their customers. I want PG to know what they can do to further increase the usefulness of BiaB to the core of MIDI users of the program. I feel confident that PG will listen to the suggestion of the MIDI and other users, and make decisions for the future path of BiaB according to the wants of all their customers.

If PG continues to develop both the core MIDI functions and the RealTracks, it becomes a win/win situation for all the BiaB users. So I feel it's important for all of us to tell PG where we want to go. That can do nothing but help PG Music keep BiaB as the number one auto-accompaniment app on the planet.

Insights and incites by Notes

Yes Bob, your point is made that when you average the cost of a synth over it's life, the annual cost is not much. The problem for some of us is that we don't have the big bucks to invest in an expensive synth to start with.

Also a good point about hard drive crashes. That's why we use Carbonite even though I have a hard drive that I could use for backup. Carbonite is transparent so I don't even have to think about backing up.

Stan

After reading the new features manual I do not understand this thread. There are a Many of the improvements that are features for midi people.

I guess it's time someone started a we need this for midi thing in the wish list forums.

I for one, might find it good reading. I have a Ketron and a JV1010 still.

I understand about the cost thing. But for me, music is a priority.

Some people spend money on Cable TV (I don't have cable or even an antenna or converter), expensive cell phone plans (I use MetroPCS for 50/month unlimited talk/text/web), and other things that are important to them, but not important to me.

For what a friend of mine spends on his Cable TV subscription in 2 months, I could be a Ketron SD2. Before I had my mother-in-law switch to MetroPCS, she would have phone bills of up to 200 per month, mostly from incoming calls that she couldn't control.

My backup software is Norton Ghost. It makes a disk image on an external drive, and it has saved my 'you know what' a few times. It will even un-do a virus because the restore is a complete re-write of your hard disk from the image. Thankfully I've never had to use it for a virus, but I eliminated a few new programs that trashed my computer.

A good backup program is essential. There are only two kinds of computer users, those who have had a hard disk crash, and those who haven't had a hard disk crash YET.

Personally, I think a good MIDI sound module is an essential tool for musicians. But of course we all have different priorities, so of course YMMV.

For those of us who love MIDI and the creativity it allows, we hope that along with the RTs, PG Music will continue to improve the core MIDI part of BiaB like it had done for years. At least I think I can speak for us.

Notes

Personally I love MIDI. I was amazed, when I returned to music, at what could be done today. There are many great hardware synths, & software synths are being improved daily, so I believe the "suck sounds" will eventually become history.

Real Tracks sound great, but eventually there will be a limit to what can be produced by the user without buying more RT. You get what you got.
MIDI is unlimited. (to my mind at least.) Virtually anything can be edited, moved, removed, added etc. Not sure if you can create your own styles with RT?

Besides...I play a Synthophone. (a midi sax) While I record using the audio from my synths, I can also record the midi.

Mick

To be honest, I've never heard a convincing MIDI emulation of some instruments -let's say, a tenor sax-, with all its subtle nuances and multiple playing techniques. On the other hand, Realtracks sound simply great, and with the proper tools you can edit audio material nearly as easily as if it were MIDI data. Although I still use some MIDI tracks (this new feature of 2012 is really great) in combination with RT when I need specific patterns, to me there's just no comparison between RT Styles and MIDI styles. Just my two cents.

I agree with Cerio ! Midi sax sounds like someone is killing a duck ,but didn't want it to scream without a melody line ! Real Sax sounds incredible compared to midi !

Hi Mario. Personally, your questions about Carbonite are not shared by me. Not saying that your questions are not valid though. We started using Carbonite on the recommendation of Kim Komando. We have had it a couple of years and have not had a problem yet. I believe in backups as much as anyone, but my problem is that I forget and forget, and forget... Did I say that I forget? This is also why I upgrade BIAB every year with the hd option also as a little added insurance. I will say that it is a royal pita to re-install everything. I had to do it once when I got a trojan virus from not using a good anti-virus pgm and another time when I had to upgrade from XP to Win 7. For us, Carbonite is worth every penny. YMMV.

Stan

Hi All,
Thanks N.N Bob for not taking offence to my comments, none were intended. I can certainly understand you pushing for improvements, that along the line would benefit all us midi users.

Although these days I do favour the use of the realtracks and drums especially I still love MIDI. I found it very daunting all those years ago and really quite complicated. Still don't really know all the in's and out's but I can usually get the job done with it.

I really think that surely MIDI must be waning these days though with so many more choices to create music with. New generations of budding musicians possablity have not heard of it or want to take the time to learn how to use it.

Also the fact that there are so few options of MIDI sound modules avalaible and those are expensive. The market usually tells the story on demand. I guess most synths still have GM included but a few I have looked have don't.

I can imagine an awful lot of biab users were introduced to midi years ago, as I was, and most would still be using it today for it's flexability and control like I do along side the realtracks & now Loops.

I can only guess but I think with time new users will be more inclined to go with the ease and quality of realtracks especially as the library expands and quality increases even more. Great to have both if you need it though.

I have a Korg X50 which is quite large, great keyboard/synth, and is pretty good for GM MIDI sounds but now I have down sized my home studio equipment to the PC I would really like to get a small neat SOUND canvas. I would like to make use of a much smaller Keyboard controller that I have which is an ideal size for my setup and for what I need regarding MIDI as I am not that great on piano/keyboards and don't need the octives of keys.

I wonder if it would be worth looking out on ebay for an older model of Gm sound canvas's or if anyone could suggest one that gives quality sounding midi instruments At least until I can afford the latest Roland one.

LONG LIVE MIDI & realtracks
Regards Jeff

where are the examples of editing

midi guitar
pedal steel
sax
etc to get closer to the real instruments

is ther a course one should take

Stan

Stan, thanx for responding in a positve way. I was not trying to be a PITA, I just have a problem with not having my backups within arms reach; I’m probably just to paranoid! I use Acronis for making HD images and it has come in handy on my wife’s computer. I reloaded everything back onto her HD in about 2 hours.

If I could ask one more question. What happens if a virus wipes out your OS or if your H D crashes. Do you have to reinstall windows to get your internet working? I am curious about Carbonite.

Thanx.

Carbonite uses the Cloud concept, but was using it before that term became popular. You can think of Carbonite as sort of an external hard drive. It's primary purpose is to backup your "data" files although you can tell it to specifically backup other types of files. It doesn't do mirror backups such as Acronis. I've used Acronis and it's a good program. If you have the big crash, you will still have to reinstall everything, but you won't lose your data files. Carbonite keeps your deleted files for 30 deys. I can understand why they don't do it for longer though. Before I started using it, I would do an Acronis backup and put the drive in our safe deposit box. I probably should still do a couple of times a year, but I've just gotten too lazy. Hoping I won't have to pay the piper again though.

Stan

Quote:

I agree with Cerio ! Midi sax sounds like someone is killing a duck ,but didn't want it to scream without a melody line ! Real Sax sounds incredible compared to midi !

Give a listen to the latest Tyros'(4) Super Articulated voices on YouTube. In the right hands, the Saxes sound like the real deal and they are midi. It is a VERY $$$ keyboard, but the midi patches sound fantastic. Their guitar parts are also life-like.

Trax

Stan, since this thread has long since been hijacked, let me just comment that Mario has a point. I used a competitor cloud service, FileDen, from 2008 until last year. All of a sudden, my files were gone. Their explanation? "We're sorry, the server that has accounts that were started in the spring of 2008 has failed, and the contents are unrecoverable."

They gave me a refund of two month's fees. I gave them a cancellation.

Since we're talking about it, I installed Carbonite for my wife, but I still go take an Acronis image and do a separate data backup on a regular basis, so even if she lost a disk, it wouldn't ever be more than a day or so out of date (at least for what's important). I've also got a couple of spare disks, so I can easily restore the latest Acronis image (even if a disk died completely) and have her back up and running in a matter of hours.

Quote:

I agree with Cerio ! Midi sax sounds like someone is killing a duck ,but didn't want it to scream without a melody line ! Real Sax sounds incredible compared to midi !

Quote:

Give a listen to the latest Tyros'(4) Super Articulated voices on YouTube. In the right hands, the Saxes sound like the real deal and they are midi. It is a VERY $$$ keyboard, but the midi patches sound fantastic. Their guitar parts are also life-like.

Trax

Unless people are blowing sunshine up my butt, there have been a number of comments about my "sax playing" on my songs. I haven't played sax in 33 years! The sax patches that I have used in recordings are all physical modelling synth patches produced by a Yamaha VL70m with Patchman's Turbo chip & played on the Synthophone. The Sample Modeling softsynths are quite nice too. Still...they lack some of the nuances that I used to have in my playing. (We call it "home-instrument bias") However, I believe over time, more & more will be added & many limitations will be overcome.

Mick

I have to congratulate PG Music though for implementing the midi feature where now you can select a midi track from a different style to the current song, a feature that was on the wishlist.

Thanks very much PGMusic you are one of the best companies out there who take heed of what your customers want

musiclover

Quote:

I have to congratulate PG Music though for implementing the midi feature where now you can select a midi track from a different style to the current song, a feature that was on the wishlist.

Thanks very much PGMusic you are one of the best companies out there who take heed of what your customers want

musiclover

+1

PGMusic... although your product will always change, I hope you never change your style of doing business. You're doing so many things right that it would be absurd to abandon your long term vision in order to pursue the impossible task of pleasing everybody.

Quote:

To be honest, I've never heard a convincing MIDI emulation of some instruments -let's say, a tenor sax-<...>

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_sunshinesax.mp3

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_capecodsax.mp3

They were recorded live on the gig with a pre-iPod era Archos Juke Box. The bit rate is low (56k), so the tone isn't as rich as it is live, but I have a very slow Internet connection and I didn't want to take hours to upload (I'm too far away from the end of the fiber optics cable to get high speed DSL). You can definitely hear the sax nuances though. And this is pure synth, not a sampled or ROMpler voice.

And I played those parts myself. They were played on a Yamaha VL70m synth module with aftermarket patches. Every note was my choice, not the expression of a different player. With MIDI, I don't have to just listen to someone else's sax solo, but I get to play one myself. The same goes for trumpet, trombone, clarinet, oboe, violin, cello, and hundreds of other instruments. It's like the difference between playing music and doing karaoke to me.

While I admit the RTs sound a little better than most MIDI voices, I also maintain the the ability to edit the MIDI voices far outweighs any lack of tone they have.

And since we are speaking of tone, what is perfect tenor sax tone anyway? John Coltrane, Stan Getz, Clarence Clemmons, Stanley Turrentine, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, Sonny Stitt, Jimmy "Night Train" Forrest, Sam "The Man" Taylor, Michael Brecker, Joe Lovano, Tom Scott, etc.???

If you played a John Coltrane and Stan Getz recording back to back to 90% of the non-musicians in the USA and Canada (and probably even more world-wide), they would think the two performers are playing different instruments.

So if the MIDI tone is 'off' a little bit, only another musician will actually care. But if the expression can be improved by manipulating the MIDI data, almost everybody will know the difference.

And all musicians can be fooled too.

Example 1: I was playing in a country club lounge using my Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller and the Yamaha VL70m synth module. The people in the dining room couldn't see us, but could hear us. A retired professional trumpet player came into the lounge to see who was sitting in on the trumpet. It was MIDI.

Example 2: Before I started bringing my guitar to the gig, I was playing at a party. The hostess was outside with us and the host, a guitarist, was inside. I started playing some Santana-like leads on the wind synth, and the guitar playing host came out to see who was sitting in on the guitar.

There are other examples and I've had other musicians complement me on the find job I did emulating their own instruments.

MIDI is not inferior by any stretch of the imagination. Every tool has it's pros and cons. It's up to the musician to (as the song goes) accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. Do what the tool does best, and avoid it's shortcomings.

Quote:

MIDI is not inferior by any stretch of the imagination. Every tool has it's pros and cons. It's up to the musician to (as the song goes) accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. Do what the tool does best, and avoid its shortcomings.

"It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools." -Old Saying

I don't know guys. I've been involved with midi for over 30 years...I still enjoy it and I'm still learning...maybe that's teh crux of the matter right there. Nonetheless, some of the new VSTi's are quite amazing from the more simple like Garritan to the more advanced like the East West series. For my money, I am always impressed with Kontakt...the player is free. Take a listen to Alicia's Keys...you can hear it on UTube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w04qwgcqB8g ). Where else could you get the sound of a $100,000 C3 Neo Grand for $99.00?

Quote:

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_sunshinesax.mp3

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_capecodsax.mp3

... And I played those parts myself. They were played on a Yamaha VL70m synth module with aftermarket patches. Every note was my choice, not the expression of a different player. With MIDI, I don't have to just listen to someone else's sax solo, but I get to play one myself. The same goes for trumpet, trombone, clarinet, oboe, violin, cello, and hundreds of other instruments. It's like the difference between playing music and doing karaoke to me.

Those saxes sound pretty good. Did you play those parts live on a keyboard or through your Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller? I do think there is a world of difference between
a) playing a midi part through a midi-wind instrument (or Mick's Synthophone) and
b) typing a midi part into a notation chart and adding synth patches to that.

The one thing I have to admit to -- the idea of playing a gig with backing tracks that you slaved over to make them the best they can be is better than just using canned RT's (from a self satisfaction standpoint and probably quality, too). If I was great with midi and had the right sound modules, I would do a whole lot more in the midi world (but I am not ... and I don't -- ha, ha). From a recording aspect, I have been quite pleased with the RT's -- but again, if I was great with midi I would use that too.

Kevin

Mick it wasn't a stab a a skilled controller user like you ,if you don't have any controller and write a melody line in midi it rarely has sound properties of a wind controller and none of a sax .

Quote:

Mick it wasn't a stab a a skilled controller user like you ,if you don't have any controller and write a melody line in midi it rarely has sound properties of a wind controller and none of a sax .

It could IF one would learn the ins and outs of midi controllers, CCs and pitch bend, and the nuances of the instrument they are trying to emulate. Granted this takes a lot of time and patience to do however the results can be very satisfying. If you are just using notes with no CCs or pitch bend then yes that will sound nothing like the real instrument.

For years I used to use the above method, even with my guitar controller. I still use it with the wind controller but I’m doing a lot less editing now.

I would like to add two things to this thread:
First, as it’s been said before, RTs, RD and Midi are tools to be used. Choose whatever fits for you and/or the song you are working on.

Second PGMusic has spent a lot of time and effort into RTs and RBs. I don’t blame them as it was and still is an excellent business move. A lot of people, including me a heavy midi user, are happy with the results. I for one thought that midi was dead in BiaB. I’m very thankful that the PGMusic staff in at least thinking about improving the midi side of things. If Biab 2012 is any indication I think Midi will improve more rapidly now in PGmusic’s programs.

Quote:

Mick it wasn't a stab a a skilled controller user like you ,if you don't have any controller and write a melody line in midi it rarely has sound properties of a wind controller and none of a sax .

Oh!....I hadn't thought of it as a stab at all! I wasn't sure if a lot of people weren't aware of some of the things available today. (with the promise of an even brighter future)

Mick

OK, if I missed this in the wanderings of the thread please ignore, but....

Mr. Norton, what synth do YOU use & recommend for midi. Because myself, I have never heard a convincing midi band, I am NOT talking about a single instrument. The demos for the S2? did not really impress me as much as I expected, tho they were far and away some of the best I have hears...

Anyway, just wondering what you use...

Hi Mr Norton,

Just thought I would run it past you when you are on the forum, I have your styles installed in a separate folder called Norton and just browse to it when I want to open a song with band in a box.

1 Now with the new feature in band in a box where I can add a track from a different style to the current song, how would I add a different track from one of your styles to an already open style of yours?

2 I am guessing that to be able to do this I may have to get the stylepicker to recognise your styles. Do I just make a new styles folder number 78 and add your styles to this, then band in a box stylepicker will recognise them?

Thanks for your time,
Regards
Jan

I keep all my Norton styles in the main BIAB folder, where the PGMusic styles are located; however, if you want to keep them separate, BIAB recognizes (and builds the stylepicker based on) style files located either in the main BIAB folder (e.g., C:\BIAB) and/or in a sub-folder called Styles (e.g., C:\BIAB\Styles). If you copy your Norton styles to the Styles folder, then Stylepicker picks those up, but you keep the PGMusic and Norton styles separated.

Alternately, all the Norton Styles start with a # sign; PGMusic styles do not; so if you filter on style files that start with a # sign, you'll find all of Norton's, even in the big BIAB folder.

Thank you very much John, that has been a great help to me.

Happy Christmas.

Regards
Jan

I was going to answer that, but John beat me to it. Thanks, John!

Also, if you download the style picker support files from this page, http://www.nortonmusic.com/support.html the Norton Music styles will appear in the Style Picker window in their own categories below the PG Music styles.

Once they are in the same folder as the PG styles you will be able to do anything with the Norton Styles that you can do with the PG styles.

Notes ♫

.
Hi Bob!

This thread could serve as a shining example of how to conduct an online discussion on a potentially controversial subject. Thanks for keeping it civil.

I love Real Tracks. They have opened up whole new areas of "composition" that I could not have explored before. I have some stuff on Youtube that I am real proud of. These could not have been done without RTs, but they are not RT-only. In places I wrote MIDI parts because I needed specific notes, melodies and counter-melodies. Even using Coyote I got good results when blended with RTs. I often add MIDI drums under the Real Drums when I need to fatten up the beat.

It is clear to me that MIDI will never go away, and PG respects this.

Since v2012 came out I have been playing with VSTs in BiaB and the new Pick-a-Part-from-MIDI-styles features. Seems to me that these are pretty major developments. I can now try lots of different MIDI guitars, pianos, etc, and then freeze the parts and edit as needed.

I would say that PG has not neglected MIDI users. These features - freezing any part, multi-VSTs and selectable MIDI parts are major steps. They reflect consideration for the MIDI user in a meaningful way.

.

I like ALL of the options... the MIDI, the real tracks, the loops, plus all of the proprietary stuff that nobody else has. I like the fact that you can add new features without taking previous features away... to me, that is the definition of improvement

Quote:

<...>

Those saxes sound pretty good. Did you play those parts live on a keyboard or through your Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller? I do think there is a world of difference between
a) playing a midi part through a midi-wind instrument (or Mick's Synthophone) and
b) typing a midi part into a notation chart and adding synth patches to that.

The one thing I have to admit to -- the idea of playing a gig with backing tracks that you slaved over to make them the best they can be is better than just using canned RT's (from a self satisfaction standpoint and probably quality, too). If I was great with midi and had the right sound modules, I would do a whole lot more in the midi world (but I am not ... and I don't -- ha, ha). From a recording aspect, I have been quite pleased with the RT's -- but again, if I was great with midi I would use that too.

Kevin

a) I played the say parts with my WX5 Wind MIDI controller. I find it's the best controller for wind instrument emulations.

b) Furthermore, I don't think typing the parts into a notation chart and adding synth patches is an acceptable way to make music, unless you are doing Techno or another form of music that is supposed to be robotic. Whether you use a keyboard, wind, guitar, percussion, tactile, or any other type of MIDI controller, IMO it is important to play the parts in real time if you want them to sound played when you play it back. Real music breathes, step input does not.

I started using MIDI tracks because there wasn't any option back in the 1980s. My first ones weren't all that good, but like any musical instrument, the MIDI sequencer gets better with practice.

When pre-recorded loops came out, I was enamored for a few months, but the honeymoon was over when I realized just how limiting they were. Sure the tone is good, but I was stuck with what someone else played and there was no way to customize it to my own preferences, even if the song desperately needed some editing.

Now don't get me wrong, PG has done some great things with the loops, but they are still non-editable. If I want to change a bass note or two to fit the turn around, or if I want to put a kick in the music, or if I want to keep the same part but put it on a different instrument, I cannot. And these are all very easy edits in MIDI. And if I cannot do these simple edits, there are a lot more complicated edits that I cannot do either.

I'm happy that PG is not abandoning the MIDI part of their excellent program for the RTs, but I still am hoping for more MIDI improvements of the types that others and I have put in the wish list.

Notes

Quote:

.
Hi Bob!

This thread could serve as a shining example of how to conduct an online discussion on a potentially controversial subject. Thanks for keeping it civil.<...>

Thanks for the kind words.

Everybody has a right to their own opinion, even if it is wrong <INSERT BIG GRIN AND WINK HERE> which of course means even if they disagree with me <INSERT BIGGER GRIN AND WINK HERE>

Seriously, it's all good and I love to debate, but hate to argue.

Bob